The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => General Discussion => General Pinball Discussion => Topic started by: wonder on February 06, 2011, 10:01:52 PM
-
Pinfrog post got me thinking about my Fathom and decided to get out my new backglass i brought from CPR to have a look at the condition. Didn't need it but was one of those night where i had a few to many beers and was just looking,not a good combination. $&&
So now i have two new blackglass to suit a Fathom and was surprised how different they are.
CPR looks more purple, and does not seem to be a crisp picture as the other new one.Not sure what shop a got the first one from but it was a while ago and it was a repo.
Just want to get other thought on the colour,as will be keeping the first one for my restore as the colours are just so much better.
Anyone in Perth need a new fathom backglass
See if you can spot the difference in the colours.Put two corners together and you can see the big difference.
-
Thats a HUGE difference!!!!
I dont own a Fathom so i couldnt say with authority that one is correct and the other... well... wrong!
My guess is the purple one is way off.
A licenced repro is SUPPOSED to offer consistency... man thats just friggin wrong!
-
A little too much artistic licence #@#
Their space invaders plastics turned out similar.
-
Better photo
-
Hi Craig. Im shiting bricks now as I have order two, one for me and the other for a mate.How long ago did you receive yours.I should receive mine soon , If it looks like that when they arrive there may be another for sale and Ill keep the bubbled original !
-
Hi Craig. Im shiting bricks now as I have order two, one for me and the other for a mate.How long ago did you receive yours.I should receive mine soon , If it looks like that when they arrive there may be another for sale and Ill keep the bubbled original !
Only came last week,be interesting to see how your two are.
-
Hi Craig. Im shiting bricks now as I have order two, one for me and the other for a mate.How long ago did you receive yours.I should receive mine soon , If it looks like that when they arrive there may be another for sale and Ill keep the bubbled original !
Only came last week,be interesting to see how your two are.
yep, the purple one is the repro
mine are the same
-
I was wondering if you guys have been in contact with CPR about the colour as there seems to be quite a bit of difference from the original .
-
Not sure if the one on IPDB is old and faded, but sure isn't purple.
-
That's crazy !
I have three Fathoms - NONE have any purple on the left hand side.
I have an original Fathom flyer. Again, no purple.
I'm one of CPR's biggest fans and I've bought 6 playfields and 4 backglasses, but I would be emailing them to find out why there is such a difference. One of the highlight's of Fathom, is the different shades of Blue. There's no shade of blue that is purple !
-
A little too much artistic licence #@#
Their space invaders plastics turned out similar.
There's also a thread I've read - can't recall if it's this or another forum - about the Gorgar plastics having a bad colour match for the yellows.
Not what you'd expect for the price you pay - I think people are happy to pay a good price, but expect a quality product. This would make me nervous about buying from CPR.
-
Got mt reply from Kevin regarting the backglass and in a nut shell, tought luck that how they are.
I do thank Kevin for the quick reply and his detail de******ion of the process in which the glass is done.
Kevin said the main difference, seems to be the power of the magenta copared to the Phoenix ones as CPR are more deep and dense. The quality of both images is identical (identical films), the taste of color balance comes down to personal preference.
He did say that when it is backlit it will look different to what it look now, as the colours are more deep compared to the Phoenix one.
Will have to wait and see what she looks like on a machine to get a true indication of what it looks like.So far everything i have got from CPR has been fantastic.
Just one Qute from Kevin which sums it up pretty well
In the end, for CMYK work, these are the compromises the hobby are going to have to accept if they want repro's. We'll be close, especially if we control the design of the films.
So it up to you if you want one and if anyone is interested in having a look for themselves in Perth,drop me a pm.
thanks
Craig
-
Thanks for that info, Craig. I guess that at the time the gallery is posted on their site an informed decision can be made. A backglass that is not 100% faithful to the original is better than no backglass.
Every CPR repro part I've bought, I've been 100% happy and I will continue to buy playfields etc from them.
-
Thanks for that info, Craig. I guess that at the time the gallery is posted on their site an informed decision can be made. A backglass that is not 100% faithful to the original is better than no backglass.
Every CPR repro part I've bought, I've been 100% happy and I will continue to buy playfields etc from them.
One of the few company's that i buy from ,and i no 99.9999999% of the time they are great.The thing i like about it is that i asked a question and got a pretty quick reply with a detail description of the process from Kevin.So now it up to the individual if they want one or not, personal i will be using the other one.
-
In the end, for CMYK work, these are the compromises the hobby are going to have to accept if they want repro's. We'll be close, especially if we control the design of the films.
Well not exactly..
CMYK or 4 colour printing doesnt necessarily have to involve any compromises... what they actually mean is "our 4 colour planner got it wrong and we cant be arsed changing it"
The colour is WAY off.. should never have passed the proofing stage... yes we can all accept a slight colour variation due to depth of print etc... but this is the WRONG colour being used in the first place.
The reply is very cheeky as it basically says 'be happy you have SOMETHING and stop whinging".
Yes it will look different lit up, cos the eye will be distracted to the illuminated part, but it will always be purple/ mauve in the corner... aint tnothing gonna change that.
I know a BG repro manufacturer and i can catagorically state that had they done FATHOM... what you have would never have seen the light of day.. it wouldnt have even made seconds standards
-
PM sent
-
Thanks Retropin for the explanation. Without knowing the process or understanding it I thought the CPR reply was pretty weak, dismissive and treated the customer as one who should be grateful. Clearly they know the colour match is poor so they should be saying that and making their excuses on the sales and gallery page, not presenting it after purchase. They have this information and it should be presented to enable would be purchasers to make a fair decision. The purchaser may not have an original to compare with, they may think someone selling a "reproduction" has indeed reproduced it.
I've never bought anything from them, but it seems they have a few products not up to scratch and are getting a history of poor attention to detail. I'd beware.
-
I've never bought anything from them, but it seems they have a few products not up to scratch and are getting a history of poor attention to detail. I'd beware.
Sorry, I cannot agree with your assessment of CPR's products.
Care to list the products "not up to scratch" ? Here's what I can recall ;
FLASH Backglass - The repro was a little bigger than the factory backglass and presented an issue whereby the repro did not fit in the headbox. This occurred on a very low number of machines. The issue was not reported until a handful of people that had the smaller sized headbox found the problem. Refunds were provided.
Hang Glider Plastics set - Ball arch plastic was 60% larger than it should have been. Again - full refund and they are in the "bargain Basement" section of their website.
Gorgar Plastics - color was not exactly a perfect match.
Haunted house - Slight misregistration of the credit window
Fathom Backglass - There is no purple in the original, yet present in the repro.
What about the 95% of their other reproductions ? BTW - I bought ALL of these products and I'm 100% impressed with their attention to detail and faithful reproduction.
Playboy Playfield - Stunning - saved a machine from being parted out
Fathom Playfield - Stunning - saved a machine from being parted out
EDB Playfield - Stunning - saved a machine from being parted out
Xenon Playfield - Stunning - saved a machine from being parted out
Flight 2000 backglass - Stunning - saved a machine from being parted out
Haunted House - Slight misregistration of the credit window, bit still saved a machine from being parted out
Force II - The guys GAVE me a spare backglass as I didn't have one at the time.
Ditto for all the plastic sets for the above titles that compliment the playfields.
I have purchased their seconds Playfields - Eight Ball with a hole drilled in the wrong location - but that was hidden under the apron.
I have purchased their seconds plastics sets - Better than their competitor's "firsts".
I am currently committed to
Medusa Playfield
Flight 2000 Playfield - Will save the machine from being parted out
Flash Gordon playfield - Will save the machine from being parted out
I have no requirement for a Fathom backglass, so I didn't pay too much attention to the progress of the repro. I was aware that the gallery would be posted and l always check the gallery of any purchase, so if I'm not happy, I would simply not purchase. If I owned a Fathom without a backlgass, I would still buy the backglass - purple or no purple. I don't agree with their response regarding the purple color, but who else is actively SAVING these classics by producing repro products ?
CPR are a bunch of hobbyists that have tooled up to provide a service based from their own basements. Their track record of providing high quality products is unmatched in the repro industry. They made a mistake, but that's hardly "a history of poor attention to detail". Compared with other ventures producing classic playfields and backglass for these titles - hang on - there aren't any..
Bottom line - if it were not for these guys, there would be more machines being parted out. They have saved more games than produced a "bad" product. Based on my personal experience with the team at CPR, I would not hesitate buying their products and would recommend their products to other collectors and restorers.
Anyone who doubt's my assessment is more than welcome to personally view any of the above mentioned repros and check for themselves.
-
Is your fathom Backglass also a little streaky?
Put a light behind that purple patch, the color is not as solid as it could be
Nino, like you, I like it that CPR is making reproductions
but sometimes they do drop the ball
Eightball playfield, is streaky in the solid green
a hole is out of place on Xenon
Small problems, sure
but I will keep buying from them
-
Sorry, I cannot agree with your assessment of CPR's products. .....
<and so on, snipped for brevity by Firepwer, but in full one reply below this>
Not quite sure why you've come in so heavily here Nino, you've probably fanned a fire that would have quietly burnt out naturally but I happily stand by what I said.
You (and I and others) quite willingly and happy jump on the band wagon to criticise and ridicule ebayers selling machines that are inaccurately or falsely over described, detailed faults are picked out and articulated on this site so I don't really get why my comment in this thread drew such a strong defence from you. As I stated I've never bought anything from CPR and I add that I have nothing to gain by either knocking or plugging them or anyone else.
If you contend that being a small business or having saved some machines or having some good products is justification for not completely and accurately describing a product then I do not agree. CPR know there are faults with a few of their products and yet they do not state these faults - this is dishonest and misleading. There is absolutely no justification for this. That they are hobbyists is irrelevant, clearly they are running a commercial operation and seeking to make money.
As to the list of products "not up to scratch", putting aside the emphasis you altered by the clumsy cutting of my words which more accurately quoted were "a few products not up to scratch", I was happy enough with what had been listed in this thread (the Fathom bg, the Gorgar and SI plastics) and thought these examples spoke more than well enough to support my comments. You've expanded the list well but missed a few also; there are minor faults with Diner, Seawitch, BK2000, Comet, EATPM plastics and earlier issues with the plastic used on those for Diner, Banzai and Pinbot. Not all of these are currently for sale and some errors may have been fixed in subsequent reruns. However it suggests to me that generally their quality control is poor.
When known, faults need to be spelt out on their sales web site so potential purchasers know that they are buying a product that is not a faithful reproduction. Many people will find these faults small or have no alternative and be happy or at least willing to accept them as they are - that's the purchasers' choice to make once they have the full information. I think CPR would look much more credible by doing this. Additionally having read some of the discussions and answers provided by CPR in this thread and on other forums - RPG and AussieArcade - I find the CPR attitude to mistakes and the responses to customers to be lacking and far below satisfactory.
Finally I didn't and don't set out to crucify them, we are certainly better off with them, my intent was just to recommend caution. I'm glad you're happy with them Nino, but for me, my bottom line remains "I'd beware".
-
Is your fathom Backglass also a little streaky?
Put a light behind that purple patch, the color is not as solid as it could be
Nino, like you, I like it that CPR is making reproductions
but sometimes they do drop the ball
Eightball playfield, is streaky in the solid green
a hole is out of place on Xenon
Small problems, sure
but I will keep buying from them
Pete - I didn't have a requirement for the backglass, as all my Fathoms have nice backglasses. I posted earlier on this thread that there is definitely an error on this backglass and I'm not convinced that the reply from CPR was valid. I agree they dropped the ball on this project. I would still purchase this backglass over the repro done by Phoenixarcade as I've seen that glass and there is a loss of detail in places. It's more "pixilated".
Sorry, I cannot agree with your assessment of CPR's products. .....
<and so on, snipped for brevity by Firepwer, but in full one reply below this>
Not quite sure why you've come in so heavily here Nino, you've probably fanned a fire that would have quietly burnt out naturally but I happily stand by what I said.
You (and I and others) quite willingly and happy jump on the band wagon to criticise and ridicule ebayers selling machines that are inaccurately or falsely over described, detailed faults are picked out and articulated on this site so I don't really get why my comment in this thread drew such a strong defence from you. As I stated I've never bought anything from CPR and I add that I have nothing to gain by either knocking or plugging them or anyone else.
If you contend that being a small business or having saved some machines or having some good products is justification for not completely and accurately describing a product then I do not agree. CPR know there are faults with a few of their products and yet they do not state these faults - this is dishonest and misleading. There is absolutely no justification for this. That they are hobbyists is irrelevant, clearly they are running a commercial operation and seeking to make money.
As to the list of products "not up to scratch", putting aside the emphasis you altered by the clumsy cutting of my words which more accurately quoted were "a few products not up to scratch", I was happy enough with what had been listed in this thread (the Fathom bg, the Gorgar and SI plastics) and thought these examples spoke more than well enough to support my comments. You've expanded the list well but missed a few also; there are minor faults with Diner, Seawitch, BK2000, Comet, EATPM plastics and earlier issues with the plastic used on those for Diner, Banzai and Pinbot. Not all of these are currently for sale and some errors may have been fixed in subsequent reruns. However it suggests to me that generally their quality control is poor.
When known, faults need to be spelt out on their sales web site so potential purchasers know that they are buying a product that is not a faithful reproduction. Many people will find these faults small or have no alternative and be happy or at least willing to accept them as they are - that's the purchasers' choice to make once they have the full information. I think CPR would look much more credible by doing this. Additionally having read some of the discussions and answers provided by CPR in this thread and on other forums - RPG and AussieArcade - I find the CPR attitude to mistakes and the responses to customers to be lacking and far below satisfactory.
Finally I didn't and don't set out to crucify them, we are certainly better off with them, my intent was just to recommend caution. I'm glad you're happy with them Nino, but for me, my bottom line remains "I'd beware".
EBay machines are not reproductions. Can't see a correlation at all.
I've come in "heavy" because CPR have filled a HUGE hole in pinball restoration, and I'm tired of the negative opinions from people who have not used their products to preserve a pinball machine and seen the benefits provided by this service. I'm not singling you out Firepower, I'm just stating my opinion as I see it, based on spending thousands with CPR and having an understanding of their process and time spent providing the service.
I knew the Haunted House had a slight window registration issue prior to buying it. Took 5 minutes to move the display. Much better than having no backglass on my machine.
CPR have dropped the ball - I've ALREADY stated this earlier. Not sure why you think I'm defending their mistake, because I'm not. You have painted a picture that their products have flaws and they lack quality control. That's my beef. I have listed the repro parts I've purchased and NONE have flaws. ALL of them are stunning and faithful reproductions. I could not be happier with their service, attention to detail and the fact that they are hobbyists that went to the trouble of tooling up and providing a service to preserve pinball machines.
Slight color variations. I've heard that as well. I agree with their reasoning that the colors of the plastics should be faithful to the original. They are not going to produce different "fades" to suit each customer. They were upfront about EATPM when it was brought to their attention. I'm sure that they have learnt a lot from producing over 40 plastics sets and only had issues with a few sets. The CPR guys are always happy to address issues on RGP - where all the feedback seems to be posted. Some complaints are valid, some are not. Some post complimentary comments. I don't post on RGP, and I'm sure that my comments would be positive. I think Kevin and mike have answered and admitted to issues when they arise. I guess it is difficult to repro a plastic from 30 years from an unfaded NOS original (if it can be sourced). Honestly, I don't mind a slight variotion if it means I don't have to stare at a broken slingshot plastic on my repro playfield.
If buyers have any concerns or doubts about what they are buying, there is always a gallery of the product to view where an informed descion can be made prior to purchasing. What I find interesting is that not one single thread on RGP has highlighted the Fathom issue. All feedback has been complimentary.
I understand your problem with CPR is that their business model lacks being upfront about issues. I'm happy that there is someone providing the service and I can see past the low percentage of errors. In fact, I've bought a few "seconds" items from the "Bargain Basement".
Fathom Backglass - It is the wrong color. If I had a Fathom with a damaged or missing backglass, I'd still buy it.
-
Nicely put Firepower,
Bottom line is that CPR have done some good stuff and are well respected for their products.
Yes. without these guys many pins would not get the restore they beg, but lets not allow that fact to cloud our judgement.. ive never been one to be happy with at least "something".
CPR make good coin from repros and permissions are sought to make these. There are a couple of companies that have a monopoly on reproduction BALLY and WILLIAMS material.. that in itself is not really an issue... i have a monopoly on GOTTLIEB stencils, so i can hardly complain here.
Problem is that FATHOM colours are WRONG - no 2 ways to put it... its a bloody shocker to be quite frank.
Im assuming some sort of quality control... but here it seems to be non existant... the reply from CPR is a piss take and tells the end user to just be happy they got "something" even if it is wrong.
This approach to a monopoly is quite simply astounding.
The reply contradicts itself where it claims to be "close" if CPR handle the films... can we assume that they didnt handle the films on this one and if not, why were they accepted in the first place.
I used to share a flat with a 4 colour planner... it was his job to do magazine front pages etc and to make sure that flesh tones looked just that and not alien like.. he would often point out mistakes on magazines and laugh... myself, i couldnt really tell unless it was bloody obvious.
ANY decent 4 colour planner would never have built up that colouring.
CPR seriously got it wrong here and looking at the reply id say its care factor zero.
Sorry Nino... but your only as good as your products... yep we can all handle the odd cock up - it happens, we are human... but this is more than that and in all honesty CPR's reply displays an attitude befitting of a shonky operator
-
Gav - As stated, I KNOW ithe Fathom repro is not a faithful reproduction.
So to bring the attention to this issue (with the intention of clarification), other than one email that was posted (an extract) here, can someone who has a BG post the question on RGP ? We all agree the reason stated for the inaccuracy is not clear. All I get is this ;
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_frm/thread/69a9e9ae1c7599ae/97f2386f25e2b0a0?lnk=gst&q=fathom+backglass#97f2386f25e2b0a0
-
Gav - As stated, I KNOW ithe Fathom repro is not a faithful reproduction.
Thats understood mate and i also hear your sentiments and see your point.
Im just amazed at the reply from CPR.. i can live with a SLIGHT variation of colour and yes - even with purple, this repro is better than nothing.
But honestly mate... the reply falls way short of what i would expect from these guys.
droped the ball ... yes and with no intention of picking it up it seems
-
^&^i will bet they were not priced as seconds
-
Looks like the TZ mini playfield is the latest target on RGPhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/15de896519dde47a# (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/15de896519dde47a#)
-
I did accepet there explination on Gorgar plastics
Over the originals 10000 (?) machine run, I am sure the colors were not always the same
Even now with Stern, specs change over a run (my Ironman, whiplash is missing his whips, added to later games :( )
-
Gorgar plastics would have been screened and so batches of inks made up... some slight variations can be expected if strict colour mixing ratios are not adhered to.
Fathom is printed... no excuses there, they ran with an incorrect file
-
Looks like the TZ mini playfield is the latest target on RGPhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/15de896519dde47a# (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/15de896519dde47a#)
Yep - and if the whinger read the reasoning why they left the bevel out, he could have made an informed choice, or made his own mini playfield.
"Crisis" is pretty much summed up -
"Dosent anybody actually "read" discriptions of products prior to purchasing them so that they know exactly what they are buying?....Or are people just looking for something to complain about and too lazy to read? "
-
Having a backglass with flaws is better than not having one that for sure.
For the amount of stuff they do reproduce compared to everyone else, i take the good with the bad with them.
Yes, not perfect and they would all ready no that.
I did think the price was low for this at $199 when a paid $350 for one of Phoenix repo ,witch i will use on my machine when i finally get time to do it.Kevin did send a detail response to me but i didn't think is was right to just post up the whole email he sent to me.If you need any more information on the process i think you should drop Kevin a email himself.The Solar fire backglass that came with it look fantastic ,but i dont have another one next to it check.
Max, will catch up and you can come and have a look to see for yourself if you still want it for wall hanging.
-
Looks like the TZ mini playfield is the latest target on RGPhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/15de896519dde47a# (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/15de896519dde47a#)
Yep - and if the whinger read the reasoning why they left the bevel out, he could have made an informed choice, or made his own mini playfield.
"Crisis" is pretty much summed up -
"Dosent anybody actually "read" di******ions of products prior to purchasing them so that they know exactly what they are buying?....Or are people just looking for something to complain about and too lazy to read? "
While I too have bought many a product from CPR without any problems and will buy again the statement you quoted from RGP is not completely true,the item description does not mention anything about the missing bevels and only mentions the reasons for the "flip here"the only place it mentions it is in the first paragraph of photo gallery,hopefully in the future if they do deviate from an original that it IS in the item description
-
If I was buying the TZ mini PF, I'd look at the store to follow the purchase instructions and I'd read the following ;
http://www.classicplayfields.com/store.html
"By overwhelming popular demand, the print follows the prototype design. The newbie "FLIP HERE" has been removed to clean up the look and put it back to what the artists originally intended (until management had to dumb-down the machine's magnetic flippers feature via printed instructions on the Powerfield)"
Check out the gallery
http://www.classicplayfields.com/photo79.html
"45-degree exit bevels are eliminated, as our heartier clearcoat will edge-protect well, not requiring the wear-prevention band-aid-fix
of a bevel as they needed in 1993"
That quote from RGP is basically suggesting that before buying the product, read it's des-cription. The reason for the proto selection and the bevel are clearly stated.
Is there a suggestion that CPR are adding notations after they have shipped their product ? If I were considering this product, all the info I need is easily sourced on their website.
-
Well the Fathom B/Gs have arrived. After carefully unpacking them ,I now have my own opinion on the repro as a comparison to the original ! Yes the colours are alot darker on the repro , but this is a beautiful piece of art. IMO I think the deeper colour tones actually compliment the darker colours of the P/F and the cab. If you want an exact repro this may not be for you , but this new glass will definately be displayed in my Fathom as opposed to the bubbled original . I think CPR have produced a classic.
-
Great to hear you are happy with the product, sure looks nice even if the colours are perhaps not exact.