The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: VanillaSlicePie on January 07, 2016, 05:49:11 PM
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Hello,
Have found 4 lamp columns have this issue when in Single Lamp Test, two lamps illuminate instead of one. Have replaced and tested TIP107/TIP102. Tested ALL diodes. No shorts found. Tested resistors and capacitors. Have replaced ULN2803 at U19 and the 74LS374 at U18. Replaced LM339 at U15/U16. (OK I was going deeper at this stage!!!!) ^&^ Have I missed something......? @@^
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A shot in the dark here and I don't know the history of your machine but is there any chance a previous owner has jumped the wires somewhere causing two lights to be activated on the one circuit instead of separately. As you know strange things get done to keep them alive sometimes.
Cheers: Brettski... :)
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Are all the diodes the correct bias? Was the machine previously working properly.
Not sure how others would diagnose it but this is what I would do. Disconnect the row plug from the driver board. With a piece of wire somehow only jump the lamp row that the lamp you are testing is on from the plug to the pin on the driver board. If the second light still comes on it must be a short in the field. If not it could be on the board.
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Thanks for replies. Firstly all wiring is as per manual. All diodes have been installed correctly. This problem has always been there since day one so just fine tuning! Will try the 'piece of wire from plug to pin trick' and see what happens. Also did some single lamp tests again and found two more columns with the same issue.... ^&(
Stay tuned. Anymore tips would be most welcomed.
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If you determine it is indeed a board fault on the row side.
Just going through the schematic have you considered the U10- U13 row ICs.
Which rows are the problem rows? Is it the same row globe that incorrectly lights no matter which column globe is on test or is it only the associated U10 to U13 IC globes that light as 1 chip handles 2 rows?
I hope that make sense..... !@# U13 for rows 1 and 2 , U12 for rows 3 and 4 and so on.
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Made sure all diodes were the same in column 2- no change
Did the wire from connector to pin rows test and the only faults to show up were;
When the"I" in KISS was lit-30million glowed
When the 2nd "S" in KISS was lit-30million glowed,rescue and movie madness all glowed.
So, possibly row 4????? That's assuming you have the column and row sheet for CFTBL.
To throw a spanner in the works, doing the above test in all lamps test didn't show all the issues in single lamp test.
Also have replaced u10 and u11. I looked at schematics and I do understand what you mentioned.
Appreciate your help.
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Row 7 not 4
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Are they globes or LEDs?
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Seems like you've changed just about every IC to do with the lamp matrix. ^&^ At times like these it would be nice to have a spare board to throw into the thing.
Anyway, if I am correct when you single lamp test the "I" in KISS with only the row 2 jumped to the driver board it lights the 30 million in row 7 as well. If this is the case then as you have disconnected the board ground from row 7 it may be picking up a ground from somewhere else. Possibly from row 2. Have you used a multimeter to check for shorts between row 2 and 7 or row 2 and 4 in the field wiring. Just a theory....
PS: You may already know these useful sites for fault finding. They have help me heaps in the past.
http://pinballrehab.com/1-articles/solid-state-repair/repair-guides/148-lamp-matrix-theory-and-troubleshooting (http://pinballrehab.com/1-articles/solid-state-repair/repair-guides/148-lamp-matrix-theory-and-troubleshooting)
http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wpc/index2.htm#remove (http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wpc/index2.htm#remove)
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Thought about putting my IJ driver board in but wasn't 100% sure. Anyway spare of everything would be handy at times!!
I use those web sites regularly. Very helpful so thanks.
Will check for those shorts you mentioned and maybe if that comes up ok possibly look at changing u12/u13???
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Try doing a factory reset. I've seen a few instance with controlled lamps that a factory reset solved the problem
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Cool! Never done that before so something new to explore.
Thanks. (Bit of poetry there!!!)
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A factory reset is worth a try. Corrupted data from the CPU. Also make sure all the chips on the CPU are seated correctly. And the ribbon cable between CPU and driver board.
If it doesn't work you can swap the driver boards as a test only. The lamp matrix circuits will be the same on both. If I am correct the only difference is the flipper relay circuitry on the CFTBL driver board.
I would install the CFTBL board in the Indy though as it has known good field lamp matrix wiring. I would do this way because I think a bad board would rarely affect the field wiring but bad field wiring can defiantly cause problems on a good driver board.
I would leave all the GI, solenoids and any other non essential plugs off too.
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No shorts found under playfield
Maybe my lamps are playing up cause after doing a factory reset it seems more lamps are coming on when they shouldn't in the single lamp test!! !@
Driver board swap maybe?
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No shorts found under playfield
Maybe my lamps are playing up cause after doing a factory reset it seems more lamps are coming on when they shouldn't in the single lamp test!! !@
Driver board swap maybe?
Unless anyone else has some ideas I would swap the driver board. At least that would clear it from having a fault so you can concentrate on other things with out having that in the back of your head. If the fault is changing then I doubt it is the driver board though.
If you have cleared the field wiring and the driver board could it be the CPU? You could try reseating the chips in the CPU board including the ASIC. I think but you should confirm that the CPUs are also interchangeable as long as the jumpers near the eprom are the same if you change the eprom over.
I would consider leaving your Indy eprom in and installing the indy CPU in the CFTBL and again only plug in the lamp matrix and other essential power plugs. You cant hurt solenoids and things if their not plugged in.
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Not 100% sure what should be connected when changing Indy cpu over to cftb.
Just being cautious....
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Ok, This is what "I" would do. Please note this is just what I would do in your situation. Others may do things differently.
First I would pull every plug from the bottom of the driver board except for J133 and 137 (lamp matrix)
From the driver board pull plugs J106 and 107 (solenoid and flasher power) Can't be too careful!
I would pull the power plug J502 off the sound board (who knows what sounds you would get with the CFBL sound chips and an Indy CPU in there)
At this point I would do a single lamp test through all the lamps with the existing CPU in to make sure it works and the faults are still there. If the faults disappear at this stage it may not be a CPU problem so maybe no need to go any further.
Take the Indy CPU complete and install it in the CFBL.
Connect all the ribbon cables on the CPU
Connect the power plug J210
Connect plug J205 direct switches (to get the menu buttons working)
Leave all other switch input plugs off.
Start her up. You will most likely get a lot of test report faults as nothing is connected. The lamp matrix should start working but may look unusual as it thinks its an Indy machine.
Do your lamp test and cross you fingers!! (Obviously the lamps names will be the Indy lamp names but you can use the lamp numbers to test)
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Well after doing the change over like you suggested nothing has improved. Except it rules out the CPU and driver board. This has really got me stumped! I'm guessing that the issue has to be on the field. Will dive back into it again, maybe I missed something before. Man, what a mission! Thanks for your help, it's well appreciated. Still open for any more suggestions.
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To confirm you have changed the cpu and driver board with the Indy boards. If so then I agree the fault must be in the field wiring.
At least you can put a board fault out of your mind. ^^^
It's seems the faults are a bit Radom. To me if a diode was shorted it would be a consistent fault.
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I only changed over the Indy CPU to cftbl and not the Indy driver board. Should I have changed over both boards together and test???
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I know its a pain but maybe you should install your CFBL driver board in your Indy as a test. Pretty sure the only difference is the CFBL driver board will have the flipper relay circuitry on it.
That will 100% clear your boards.
Before you do check the voltage on the driver board at test point TP8. This feeds the lamp columns. You should get around 18 VDC to ground. Just wondering if you have a high voltage there or getting some ac from the bridge rectifier. This test point comes straight off the bridge rectifier BR1.
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There's 18v at TP8. Changed cftbl driver board over to Indy (what a mission!) and it tested fine in the single lamp test.
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There's 18v at TP8. Changed cftbl driver board over to Indy (what a mission!) and it tested fine in the single lamp test.
Yeah! I hear you but at least you can focus entirely on the field wiring.
Been thinking, Are the faulty lamps the BC type? Maybe a throw away but I have heard of the insulators breaking down on switches and causing problems so maybe it can happen with the lamp holders too. Maybe it is not showing as a true short on a multimeter.
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Yep heading for the play field and I did notice there is only a thin piece of insulator on the lamp holders so was even going to order what ever I need and just replace all of them. That's if I don't find anything before hand. Happy hunting!!!! *.*
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Another thing to try, if the "I" still causes the 30 million to come on. De-solder the out going (the wire heading away from the driver board) row wire from the 30 million lamp. If the 30 million lamp still lights the fault will be in the wiring towards the board and visa versa. You can then work your way towards the board or the other way disconnecting the row wire if the 30 million doesn't light until it does. When you come to a lamp circuit board you should be able to unplug it as the row wire should just past through the plug.
This may help isolate the fault to a part of the loom
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Will try your suggestion. Tried to attach the creature lamp page but unsuccessful. I've gone through every single lamp thoroughly writing down any lamp that comes on when it shouldn't and there's a definite pattern. Thought you might have given up on me by now so your help is much appreciated. Learning heaps. $%$
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Not problem at all!!! Haven't had a problem like this in one of my machines for ages so I am enjoying the challenge and still learning myself. I actually like fixing them as much as playing em.
Since the machine has always had these issues it is possible someone has done some incorrect wiring or you are dealing with multiple problems. Both of which are the hardest to diagnose in my experience but when you find it you will wonder why you couldn't see it straight up.
For example if some has replaced a lamp holder and swapped the row and column wires the good diode will essentially act as a shorted diode but at a glance it looks good. Easy to over look small details like this when your bent over a machine with a torch.
A set fault pattern is a good thing as hopefully you can isolate parts of the matrix to narrow it down.
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lamp 001.jpg Working on row 2. Disconnected KISS connector- 30 mill still flashing and (A) still flashing (PAID)
Disconnected Playground Award row wires- (A) still flashing (PAID)
Disconnected PAID connector-30 mill stops sflashing when (K) (I) (S) (S)
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Some very helpful info! ^^^
Here's something to try. It appears that column 1 is being permanently energised but we now know the driver board works fine so row 7 may be causing this. I would check the Bottom Jet (17) where the column and row intersect. Remove the globe, check the diode and wiring is correct at that point.
Even better if you can disconnect the 2 x row wires from the bottom jet and temp connect them together to completely remove it from the circuit.
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Here's why I think it could be the bottom jet.
Assume you are testing the (K) in KISS (Lamp 21) top of the second column
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Sorry for the multiple post but remember row 7 could be shorted to column 1 at any point which will cause the same fault but the bottom jet is where the two are the closest.
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Well I guess that's why your the Mr Pinball Professor and I'm the novice cause you nailed it man!!!!!!! Disconnected the two row wires at Bottom Jet (17) and wella! Every lamp came on without any even glowing. Haven't seen that in a long time. $#$ thank you very muchly!!!!!!!
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#*# #*# #*#
Awesome man!! No problem at all, I'm stoked for ya. Was a real curly one there for a while. I'm no Professor but that matrix diagram of yours was the clincher which clued me in. Nice work. So satisfying when you fix a problem like that. Now you understand "THE MATRIX" . %.%
Cheers Dan
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Reconnected Bottom Jet row wires and disconnected wires to 'Jet Bumpers'. All tested good. Short is in one of the 'Jet Bumpers'. Cheers Dan.
Paul
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Cool, I'd be starting with the lower jet. Let us know what you find!
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Well it was a case of 'Captain Obvious!' Seems the wiring going into the 3 lamp board under the field for the jet bumpers was wired up incorrectly. Common was wired up correctly but.... ( and I use the term loosely!) the 3 ground wires were wired up into one row wire via the terminal block...DOH!!!!! Haven't put it to the test yet but am 99.9% sure that's it.
Can anyone help me to find a supplier of the smaller .100" white housing connectors. Have tried pspa and jaycar.
Cheers
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https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=68 (https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=68)
I bought them from these guys as I had trouble finding them in Aus. I tried RS online but it was too hard to know if I was ordering the right thing.
They are the crimp style which seem to be the go these days. You also will need a crimping tool, contacts and a key plugs to suit.
I tried to order enough stuff to make the postage worthwhile.
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Hey thanks. Checked out the link and ideally they have what I'm looking for. However, since I only require 1 .100" connector plug 7pin plus the contacts, if you have one, would you be willing to sell?. Feel funny asking. Obviously would pay for the piece and postage. Just thought I'd ask.
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Element 14 is another place in Aus worthy of trying, fast shipping as well
http://au.element14.com/te-connectivity-amp/770602-7/crimp-housing-cst-100-7way/dp/749990?ost=22-01-2077&selectedCategoryId=&categoryName=All+Categories&categoryNameResp=All+Categories
also if you have a iphone or ipad download a app called pintrix good for solving matrix issues
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Cool. That's gonna save a bundle! Man so much help on this site!! Luv it!
Thanks
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Hey thanks. Checked out the link and ideally they have what I'm looking for. However, since I only require 1 .100" connector plug 7pin plus the contacts, if you have one, would you be willing to sell?. Feel funny asking. Obviously would pay for the piece and postage. Just thought I'd ask.
Funny thing, Just checked and I can't believe it but I do have a seven pin connector and crimps or grab them from Element 14 as Swinks found.
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Will go through Element 14 to save the hassle.
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Great, Element 14 no longer stock the connector. Will you consider my request Dan?
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PM your address and I'll post it to you.
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UPDATE;
Problem solved with a big help and thanks for all who replied and especially DSB (Dan the Man!) who was there all the way!
Creature never had lamps in Jet Bumpers so the lamps that were in there already were creating confusing with the Lamp Matrix no matter whether I wired them up in series with a diode to the circuit board or stripped and crimped into connector. Two lamps came on at once.
So simply wired the lamps up to the GI under the field and bob's ya uncle!
$&&
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#*# #*#
Awesome work Paul. It certainly looks better with lights in them!
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Good work, love it when a plan comes together! :)
Brettski... :)