The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: goodolddays on January 20, 2011, 10:43:27 PM
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For those who remember I did my 1st ground up restore on a '68 Williams Lady Luck last year . Man I have had a lot of faults with this game ^&^. About 15 according to the notes I've kept.
Anyhoo finally bit the bullet today after quite a break to sort out why it wasn't always resetting the card count reels at the end of each ball. Tracked that down to a normally closed switch on the game over relay that was out only just out of adjustment.
Great .. fired with with that win thought I'd track down why player 2 1000's reel wasn't resetting to 0 (simple you all say) .. well i still haven't managed to fix that and in the meantime (beats the hell out of me how) , now it resets the card score when the ball drains before getting a chance to check the dealers score. It should reset the card score when you launch the next ball and it passes over a switch in the ball shooter lane.
Unfortunately I doubt anyone can help me sort this as this game is pretty unique .
Right now I am blooody annoyed with it so taking a break again ... I have the schematics and manual so will sort it out .. just currently can't understand how this is happening so a bit stumped where to look.
Such is life with old pinnies eh?
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Looks to be a interesting game (ipdb). EM's can be a real bugger, when sorting faults. With the schematics you will certainly work it out. Don't let it beat you %%$
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Looks to be a interesting game (ipdb). EM's can be a real bugger, when sorting faults. With the schematics you will certainly work it out. Don't let it beat you %%$
Cheers mate. Its a great game I will never sell. One of only 4 Blackjack themed pins ever made according to my rsearch.
This morning when I woke up the 1st thought that popped into my head was yesterday when I was sussing out the relay that resets the point score relays was that I had made a mistake and adjusted a switch on the relay next to the one I wanted. Yes, you guessed it , that relay is the one to do with controlling the card count DOH!!! . So.. I had created the new fault .. no surprises there . So, have fixed the fault I created yesterday #*# . Then got sidetracked by something more urgent so haven't had any more time today to continue . Must say though than I love fault finding EM's *%*
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Looks to be a interesting game (ipdb). EM's can be a real bugger, when sorting faults. With the schematics you will certainly work it out. Don't let it beat you %%$
Must say though than I love fault finding EM's *%*
I dont, in all honesty EMs give me a large dose of the shits sometimes trying to locate faults (i lack patience :lol ) especially if schematics arent on hand.
The beauty of them though is that 90% of the time it ends up being an easy fix to get them running!! nearly always as simple as switch cleaning/adjustment.
I'm sure you'll sort out the problems with yours though.. it just takes time to weed out the niggling little problems.. i'm STILL doing that with my Zac Universe ^&^
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LOl- all fixes are easy..... its the finding part thats hard
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LOl- all fixes are easy..... its the finding part thats hard
No it's not Gav you just ask me LOL
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I fixed the score reel not resetting .. dirty and slightly out of adjustment 9th position switch on the reel . Both manual and schematic are wrong which game me a bum steer.
They say reels are reset via 0 position switch, but in fact its the 9th position switch.
These 42 year old wire colours are pretty faded too.
Seems like I have one weird fault left , which is on 5th ball in 2 player game, machine resets player1 card count at end of player 2 5th ball, and gives player 2 another ball, then goes to game over when that ball drains. I think that one will prove tricky to track down. !@#
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I'm not familiar with this game, but if it were a four player issue with the 4th player on the last ball, I'd be looking at the player unit. The stepper spring may be would too tight, not allowing travel to the last set of contacts (on the bakerlite). Could be something simple like that ?
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I'm not familiar with this game, but if it were a four player issue with the 4th player on the last ball, I'd be looking at the player unit. The stepper spring may be would too tight, not allowing travel to the last set of contacts (on the bakerlite). Could be something simple like that ?
Thanks for the tip Nino . Will definitely take a look at that.
Cheers
Dave
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OK .. any ideas anyone ??? My 2nd Lady Luck (which is presold) is busting on 20 instead of 22 or above . I have checked the score reels are correctly reporting 20 , 21, 22 etc . I thought it might be that the 10's card reel was reporting it was on 30 whehn actually on 20 etc but no luck . The only thing I can find is that when the 20 relay is tripped, the reistance on the earth lug of the coil for the bust relay drops from 4.6 to 3.6 ohms (and if the bust relay is tripped the resistance goes back to 4.6 ohms)
I can't find anything else wrong in the circuit (see circuit attached) .
Any ideas anyone ? I have spent way too much time chasing this fault already . I can't sell this game to my cousin till I sort this out and really want this game sold and out of here ASAP.
Any help much appreciated.
Cheers
Dave
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Forgot to add I have jumpered the switch on the ball index relay while fault finding (as it provides earth for this circuit) and coil resistance for the bust relay measures the same as other coils in the relay bank.
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Anyone got any ideas on this ???
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Only place where "BUST" and 20 points are related is at "2nd player 10 point card" - 2nd increment.
There is a 2 way relay at "A player relay"... as far as i can tell, this is the only path to ground for 20 points.
If A player is misaligned so it is NOT opening one side of the contacts, game will bust at 20.
OR
2nd player 10 point card is not resetting to ZERO when its meant to
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In fact... this can ONLY happen if 2nd Player is at 2nd increment.... my money is on this not being at zero
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Thanks for the thougts Gav.
As I see it though, path to ground when 10 point card reel is at '2' is only to 20 relay .
Path to ground for player bust relay is if
a) A player relay is not activated (which is in single player mode) and No 8 or No 9 relay is activated (at 18 or 19 repectively.. which I've checked work correctly) and Rollover relay is activated and 10 pt card reel is at '3' .. ie 30.
or b) either 1 point card reel is at '2' and 20 relay is tripped.
Even if 10 point card reel is at '2' (20) and 1 point card reel is at '0' and A player make/break switch is not open on side to 1 point card reels, the path to ground (to bust relay) is via No 8 or No 9 relay and rollover relay switches.
As I've said earlier.. I have checked that when 10 point card reel (checked both reels) are at '2' there is no ground on position 3 and when either one point card reel is at '0' there is no ground on position 2 or above.
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Update.
If I open the normally closed A player relay switch connected to the one point card units (with a piece of paper) then game doesn't bust on 20 but does bust on 30 . So.. this obviously tells me the 10 unit card reels are both OK (as their outputs are connected together) , and yet checking the one point card units they do not have an earth at '2' (or higher) outputs when either reel is on 0 (and all switches on each reel are open at 0 as they should be)
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Ok - have printed it off.
For BUST to trip:
PLAYER BUST ( normally closed)
R.O RELAY
8 RELAY
OR
9 RELAY
must all be closed unless you have a logic wiring fault.
Question is.. what will run a path to ground before these relays.
One of the paths is if "A' player relay normally open side is closed, this will trip BUST when 2nd Player 10 pt card DU is at 2nd increment ( this is 10pts though).
1st Player 10pt card DU will do the same at 2nd increment ( also 10 pts) if either 8 Relay OR 9 Relay AND RO relay are closed.
If it busts one 1 player then this path is wrong.
When 30 pts is active... it bypasses all the above and goes straight to player bust closed and coil pulls in.
SO.... at 20 points, im struggling to see any path to ground... can on;ly happen at 10 points with a shorted relay further up ( mmmm odds are against 2 or more faults, but it is possible).
OR
score is displaying wrong... logic is correct and player 10 pt is at 30 ( bust) and you are seeing wrong numbers.
...Have to leave it.... im typing with a screaming baby here and kinda rushing this... be done for neglect soon!
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Update.
If I open the normally closed A player relay switch connected to the one point card units (with a piece of paper) then game doesn't bust on 20 but does bust on 30 . So.. this obviously tells me the 10 unit card reels are both OK (as their outputs are connected together) , and yet checking the one point card units they do not have an earth at '2' (or higher) outputs when either reel is on 0 (and all switches on each reel are open at 0 as they should be)
let me absorb this and ill get back.... i suspect this 2 way relay... could be wired backwards
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Thanks heaps Gav. ^^^
This fault has done my head in for a few days now .. I really, really want to, and need to, find the cause
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Ok - have printed it off.
For BUST to trip:
PLAYER BUST ( normally closed)
R.O RELAY
8 RELAY
OR
9 RELAY
must all be closed unless you have a logic wiring fault.
Understood.
Question is.. what will run a path to ground before these relays.
One of the paths is if "A' player relay normally open side is closed, this will trip BUST when 2nd Player 10 pt card DU is at 2nd increment ( this is 10pts though). (that is actually 20 points ) ..
1st Player 10pt card DU will do the same at 2nd increment ( also 10 pts) if either 8 Relay OR 9 Relay AND RO relay are closed.
If it busts one 1 player then this path is wrong.
When 30 pts is active... it bypasses all the above and goes straight to player bust closed and coil pulls in.
SO.... at 20 points, im struggling to see any path to ground... can on;ly happen at 10 points with a shorted relay further up ( mmmm odds are against 2 or more faults, but it is possible).
OR
score is displaying wrong... logic is correct and player 10 pt is at 30 ( bust) and you are seeing wrong numbers.
...Have to leave it.... im typing with a screaming baby here and kinda rushing this... be done for neglect soon!
I am quite confident score displays are correct as score on reel matches earth on respective "position output" ie .. reel displays 1 when 1 output has earth etc .
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Couple of questions:
Does it bust at 20 for both 1 player and 2?
The scanned diagram cuts off... what happens on other side of PLAYER RELAY ... BROWN wire... where does this go?
Do 20 point relay AND bust relay activate at the same time and on 3rd increment.
Im really struggling to find a path to ground on 20 pts unless the BROWN wire takes us somewhere.
Also check that on "A "Player relay.. normally closed switch is GREEN with RED on one side and YELLOW with BLUE on the other... this one goes back on itself to a single leaf switch onm same relay
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Couple of questions:
Does it bust at 20 for both 1 player and 2?
Yes it does .. should have mentioned that .. also note that increment outputs of each card score reel are connected together (player 1 10's to player 2 10's and player1 1's to player 2 1's)
The scanned diagram cuts off... what happens on other side of PLAYER RELAY ... BROWN wire... where does this go?
I've scanned more (see attachment)
Do 20 point relay AND bust relay activate at the same time and on 3rd increment.
Yes, both activate at the same time when card score reaches 20 for either player (either 10 to 20, or 10 thru 11 etc to 20)
Im really struggling to find a path to ground on 20 pts unless the BROWN wire takes us somewhere.
I've also started looking at where the brown wire goes
Also check that on "A "Player relay.. normally closed switch is GREEN with RED on one side and YELLOW with BLUE on the other... this one goes back on itself to a single leaf switch onm same relay
Will check that shortly and advise
Thanks Gav
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forgot to attach the 2nd scan of the schematic .. here it is
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Also, the earth for the 20 relay comes via either of the 10's card reels when they are at 2nd position. Earth is fed to them via a switch on the ball index relay (which is active when a ball is in play) and then via the make/break switch on the player relay. Also, when the 20 relay is activated , earth is seperately fed to the 1st position on the 10's card reels (not sure why).
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Couple of questions:
Also check that on "A "Player relay.. normally closed switch is GREEN with RED on one side and YELLOW with BLUE on the other... this one goes back on itself to a single leaf switch onm same relay
Checked A player relay is wired correctly , also checked with meter and compared against my own Lady Luck.
Cheers
Dave
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Im trying to keep this simple here.
We HAVE to assume that the wiring is all OK until we have eliminated all other possibilities.
Im clinging to the time when you opened up the "A" player leaf switch. This allowed game to bust at 30 NOT 20 as it should... so with this switch open - logic is good.
There is NO path to ground on 20 points... not one that would fire the bust relay anyway.
So im thinking that at 20 points there is a short on a wiring or the stepper that is linking the 20 and the 30 together.
IF this is the case, then ground is given a path directly to BUST... we dont need 8 Re or 9 RE or even RO RE... it goes straight to bust relay and coil. And if im reading correct - you have verified the correct operation of 8,9 and RO
Make sure your wiper is not touching both contacts.. im assuming front and back are active on this.
Also lift the contact arm and test between increment 2 and 3... should be open.
Drop contact arm and test again - should still be open.
If the above tests OK, then its getting hard as 20 points is completely isolated from BUST
Also.... the game does start at zero yes?? It doesnt give 10 points at start up does it?
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Im trying to keep this simple here.
We HAVE to assume that the wiring is all OK until we have eliminated all other possibilities.
Im clinging to the time when you opened up the "A" player leaf switch. This allowed game to bust at 30 NOT 20 as it should... so with this switch open - logic is good.
There is NO path to ground on 20 points... not one that would fire the bust relay anyway.
So im thinking that at 20 points there is a short on a wiring or the stepper that is linking the 20 and the 30 together.
IF this is the case, then ground is given a path directly to BUST... we dont need 8 Re or 9 RE or even RO RE... it goes straight to bust relay and coil. And if im reading correct - you have verified the correct operation of 8,9 and RO
Make sure your wiper is not touching both contacts.. im assuming front and back are active on this.
Also lift the contact arm and test between increment 2 and 3... should be open.
Drop contact arm and test again - should still be open.
If the above tests OK, then its getting hard as 20 points is completely isolated from BUST
Also.... the game does start at zero yes?? It doesnt give 10 points at start up does it?
Welcome to my nightmare Gav . This is a bitch of a fault . I have already checked there is no continuity between 2 and 3 position on both 10's card reels (with and without the wiper installed).
Yes, i have verified correct operation and adjustment of switches on 8, 9 and rollover relays .
I too am clinging to the fact that opening the "A" player switch confirmed the 10's card reels (and that part of the cct) is working correctly. This test also verified that there is no active ground path via 8's 9's and rollover relay when there shouldn't be.
This test also isolated (in my mind) the cause to something on the side of the 1's card reels but I have just double checked them both again and can't find any short .
Also, FYI, there is a seperate gorund wire connected to each of the 1's card reels that is not shown on the schematic. This is how they get fed a ground source.
I was also thinking about a false earth from the number match stepper, but it is isolated by a N.O switch on the dealer relay which is definietly open .
I'm starting to think I might have to try some creative rewiring ?
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Sorry .. forgot to add, that yes, game starts at 0 as it should. Everything else (feature wise) is working correctly from my play testing so far.
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One other thing . In my 1st post I mentioned that when the 20 relay trips, the resistance (to ground) on the ground lug of the coil for the bust relay drops by 1 ohm.
I just checked this on my own Lady Luck and there is no change of resistance . Not sure why this happens on the 2nd LL or what it means .
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One other thing . In my 1st post I mentioned that when the 20 relay trips, the resistance (to ground) on the ground lug of the coil for the bust relay drops by 1 ohm.
I just checked this on my own Lady Luck and there is no change of resistance . Not sure why this happens on the 2nd LL or what it means .
Possibly because we have a cleaner path to ground... but this is a red herring to chase, im sure of it.
My last post didnt make sense.. i had an idea then when i went to post i lost my train of thought.
The key here is the A player relay, but the problem we have is that the ground path for 20 is definately going through this path and to do that 8 or 9 and RO must be closed... all A player does is determine if its 1 or 2 player thats active....mmmm.....
Can you test for continuity on 20pt stepper position and that side of BUST coil.. then 20pt to RO relay.
it should be isolated from both. Do this with game off and then on before game start. Then again once game is registered and ball 1 is indexed.
I want to make sure that its a relay coming over and not a fault that is hard wired.
I then want to make sure that where Ball Index relay is on far left of diagram ( this goes to White with Blue @ 9C on diagram) that its not a fault elsewhere through ball indexing.
Im loving this mate.. waiting on parts to fix my machines, so il do yours instead and its an EM conundrum ^^^
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I'm glad your loving it Gav .. its frustrating the hell out of me ^&^
Did those tests .. no continuity as expected . I think that you are looking in the wrong place though , because when I isolated the 1 pt card reels (by opening that switch on the A player relay) the 10 pt reels side of the circuit worked correctly *%*
Really appreciate your help and input though as I am totally stumped by this one.
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Sorry Gav .. I stand corrected .. you aren't necessarily looking in the wrong place .. I have NFI of what is going on with this machine .
It actually doesn't make sense that opening that switch stopped the problem, according to the schematic (which could be wrong of course @@^
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Sorry Gav .. I stand corrected .. you aren't necessarily looking in the wrong place .. I have NFI of what is going on with this machine .
It actually doesn't make sense that opening that switch stopped the problem, according to the schematic (which could be wrong of course @@^
Yes - you are absolutely correct... opening this switch should make no difference whatsoever... but it does!
And the only way it can do this is if the 10pt card 1st player is at first increment and 8 or 9 are closed plus RO relay... this is the only way you can bust without actually going to 30 points which by passes all the relays mentioned.
If you are 100% sure that this stepper is in correct position then we have a logic fault somewhere.
Now... its all elimination and we have a starting point ( A player switch).. this is good as its a definate to work with and eleviates your problem.
Our path MUST be after this switch... but our fault may not be.... can you put the paper into A player switch again and see if 8 or 9 are closed and RO when it hits 20pts.
Now player can also bust at 22pts yes?... this also by passes all the switches above through 20 pt relay and goes straight to bust switch... make sure that at 20 points, the 1 point relay isnt sitting at 2.
We are getting there.. i think.. LOL
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Try playing to 20 without 1 pt card stepper making contact.
Anything from 2 - 7 will bust, these are all linked via GREY with Black
21 gives option of replay through outhole relay.
If 1 pt stepper is on anything other than 1 or zero when 20pt relay pulls in - you will bust
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Sorry Gav .. I stand corrected .. you aren't necessarily looking in the wrong place .. I have NFI of what is going on with this machine .
It actually doesn't make sense that opening that switch stopped the problem, according to the schematic (which could be wrong of course @@^
Yes - you are absolutely correct... opening this switch should make no difference whatsoever... but it does!
And the only way it can do this is if the 10pt card 1st player is at first increment and 8 or 9 are closed plus RO relay... this is the only way you can bust without actually going to 30 points which by passes all the relays mentioned.
Agreed and understood
If you are 100% sure that this stepper is in correct position then we have a logic fault somewhere.
I am 100% sure .. I have checked it many times
Now... its all elimination and we have a starting point ( A player switch).. this is good as its a definate to work with and eleviates your problem.
Our path MUST be after this switch... but our fault may not be.... can you put the paper into A player switch again and see if 8 or 9 are closed and RO when it hits 20pts.
Now player can also bust at 22pts yes?... this also by passes all the switches above through 20 pt relay and goes straight to bust switch... make sure that at 20 points, the 1 point relay isnt sitting at 2.
Have already checked that but will check again
We are getting there.. i think.. LOL
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Try playing to 20 without 1 pt card stepper making contact.
I already effectively did that when I opened the switch on the A player relay
Anything from 2 - 7 will bust, these are all linked via GREY with Black
Yes .
21 gives option of replay through outhole relay.
Yes
If 1 pt stepper is on anything other than 1 or zero when 20pt relay pulls in - you will bust
Yes .. will check it 1pt card reel again and let you know
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Ok Gav .
With the 'A' player switch forced open ..
'8' and '9' relay only activate when 1 pt card reel is on 8 or 9 (as they should)
Player 1 does not bust on 20, but player 2 does .. though note that in the manual it states that this switch is in player bust cct for player 1 only
Something interesting though .. with the game in play I can't get any resistance reading on my meter looking between anything and ground
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Hmm .. have just realised that earth wire for my stepdown transformer is not properly earthed . Will try running another wire from there to earth lug on main transformer and see what happens.
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A potential difference between 2 voltages giving false ground?? - ooh man thats a tough one to find... but it would explain your cranky resistance drops...... "Insert emitocon that has one raised eyebrow and strokes chin"
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Great phrase LOL .
Just did that (ran the wire ) but fault persists .. DAMN!!!!
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Yeh - thought it might but no harm in clutching some straws
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Took another look at 1 point card reels today and found a short between 0 position and 2 - 7. When I pulled apart player 2 reel I found a big burn mark on the pad for position 6 which was shorting to the centre track (earth input for the reel) . I had noticed this when i overhauled the reel but didn't properly investigate at that time DOH!!!
As that pad was damaged (and lifting from the PCB) I have cut it off as I was concerned about further damage and probs down the track. This means player 2 won't bust when score changes from 16 to 26 but can live with that .
Thanks for all your time helping me with this one Gav , really appreciate it ^^^ ^^^.
The hard lesson I have learned is be more thorough in future .
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Ok - so we had a short between 0 and the 2 - 7??
Yep - that will bust at 20 each time.
Awesome stuff!!! We solved it!
Thats put a smile on my face for the day that has... thanks! It was fun! ^^^ ^^^
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Wish I could say it was Fun too Gav , but it ended up being a big pain in the butt for me .. at least it's fixed now #*#
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That's a tough fault to find. Jaycar have some paint on pcb track repair stuff which might help out if you want to try and rebuild the track. Cat number NS-3033
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?keywords=ns-3033&keyform=KEYWORD&SUBMIT.x=0&SUBMIT.y=0
I never used it, so no idea if it will work.
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Ive used this before in a stepper and so far it has held up OK.
Hey Goodolddays.. its easy from this end to say its enjoyable.. ive had many an EM make me pull my hair out.
I must admit that i was getting to the point where i was going to pretty much throw in the towel as we had exhausted all logic paths and suggest you follow each wire from the BUST relay to find some worm braid that was giving ground on a piece of metal or even 2 wires worn away against each other.... horrible work, but ive had to do it so many times
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Thanks for the info Dave .. hadn't heard of that .. I have filled the burnt hole in the PCB with superglue (building up layers) so now it should hold up OK .. before was running the risk of wearing away the track for the earth .
The drama didn't end there by the way .. when I put the reel back together I found the game wasn't paying out for 21 by player 2.
Checked the 1 point reel again to find it only had earth output when on 0.
Couldn't see any breaks in the tracks (other than the pad I had cut off) .. tried bending the contacts on the shoehorn that screws to the back of the centre cog, but no joy , so replaced it with one from a spare wheel I had.
Played a few games Ok then machine was dying in the middle of a game .. cleaned the motor run switch and now have played about 20 games (mostly in 2 player mode) and all is finally good.
So .. tomorrow will ring my cousin and finally get this machine out of here #*# #*# #*# so I will have room for my next project (WMS Gulfstream)
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Ive used this before in a stepper and so far it has held up OK.
Hey Goodolddays.. its easy from this end to say its enjoyable.. ive had many an EM make me pull my hair out.
I must admit that i was getting to the point where i was going to pretty much throw in the towel as we had exhausted all logic paths and suggest you follow each wire from the BUST relay to find some worm braid that was giving ground on a piece of metal or even 2 wires worn away against each other.... horrible work, but ive had to do it so many times
Gday Gav .
I've also had my share of frustrating EM faults before .. with one game it was an impossible intermittent fault to find but after I did a full mechanical rebuild its running well now (last resort option)
Actually I've had to do that with 2 of my EM's to fix recurring (and different) faults. ::)