The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => General Discussion => General Pinball Discussion => Topic started by: elkor-alish on December 01, 2009, 04:30:22 AM
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All of the decals that have been mentioned so far sound awesome.
Don't patents, copyright, trade mark, rights etc. expire?
When do WG's expire?
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Copyright length varies from country to country, in Australia according to wikipedia:
Life + 70 years until year end
Life + 50 years until year end (death before 1955)
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I split this away from the decals thread that the team have asked to let die as it is an interesting question. If a debate about copyright is desired, please have at it here!
Please however talk about the generalities and keep your opinions of claimants to ownership of the various things in pinball out of the discussion. As funny as toothless bears might be, it is the preference of this forum not to be a place to post those sorts of comments.
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I have no knowledge of copyright and its implications. Do I have the right of repair for items that I own? If so does this mean i can commission someone to make/reproduce the part I need? Does the likelihood that they are going to profit from making this for me affect the situation? Does commisioning the part being produced make any difference from it being offered for sale and stocked?
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Rads, by having someone fabricate a replica item, you ARE infringing on copyright.
Copyright laws are a tough as nails, they have every angle covered, and you basically can't do ANYTHING (legally) to reproduce any items without permission of the copyright holder.
To gain permission will mean buying a partial-right to reproduce, which can be $50k to million$, hence nobody ever gets permission to reproduce items.
Besides waiting for the 50/70year copyright ownership to expire, you're stuffed ;-)
It's worth a look for everyone to visit some local (Aussie) copyright info sites, although it can be quite tedious reading, it opens up a whole world of questions & rights of ownership.
I think copyright law would have to be the darkest of them all, and i applaud the legal teams that handle it...nasty stuff.
Marty.
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Can anyone explain to me what exactly Gene Cunningham and Wayne Gillard bought from Williams respectively?
As far as I can tell they each only got half the pie!?
It's a little confusing to me, one guy can do one thing and the other can do something else.
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This is my opinion on the subject, and it may not be 100% factual..
All manufacturers that produced pinball machines patented the parts that made up the machines. This includes the art
There are two types of games that were produced - Licensed and unlicensed. Licensed pins required a third party license
An example of a licensed pin - KISS, Nugent, Addams Family, Gun's N Roses
An example of an unlicensed pin - Supersonic, Joker Poker, Fishtales
A licensed pin requires the third party license holder to give permission to produce the machine. So KISS, Ted Nugent and Guns N Roses would have given permission to produce the machine and any parts that have their likeness. Same with Addams Family, BUT - there are several license holders - Addams Family Trust and Paramount Pictures would be two that comes to mind.
An unlicensed pin needs no third party license holder.
The owners of the respective licenses can produce parts, but it becomes difficult to produce parts that have a Third party license.
You can produce KISS plastics after gaining permission from WMS Industries AND KISS.
You can produce Supersonic or Joker Poker plastics with permission from WMS Industries or Gottlieb LLC respecively
With all reproduction parts, you need to speak to the license holder (whoever that may be), or you will be infringing copyright as they own the license to that product. Copyright infringement depends on what company owns that license, and it can be acted upon by that license holder, OR the third party license holder.
This is MY OPINION and it could be inaccurate.
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Isn't Nick (pinnies4me) a Lawyer? :lol
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Can anyone explain to me what exactly Gene Cunningham and Wayne Gillard bought from Williams respectively?
As far as I can tell they each only got half the pie!? It's a little confusing to me, one guy can do one thing and the other can do something else.
I have a question.................
Does the fact that one party is making new MM pins and printing new translites and art automatically stop the other party from doing so too ???? or did both parties purchase rights to equally manufacturer everything and anything they want ????
In saying this, some consumers are of the understanding that one has purchased the license and the rights, but they could simply be telling the consumer that they have the rights to one product / part that they actually do not have licensing / rights to............. !@# !@#
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Can anyone explain to me what exactly Gene Cunningham and Wayne Gillard bought from Williams respectively?
As far as I can tell they each only got half the pie!? It's a little confusing to me, one guy can do one thing and the other can do something else.
I have a question.................
Does the fact that one party is making new MM pins and printing new translites and art automatically stop the other party from doing so too ???? or did both parties purchase rights to equally manufacturer everything and anything they want ????
In saying this, some consumers are of the understanding that one has purchased the license and the rights, but they could simply be telling the consumer that they have the rights to one product / part that they actually do not have licensing / rights to............. !@# !@#
There does not seem to be a clear line between the two license holders. As an example;
IPB and TPF can produce MM playfields. Both have said they will. IPB have released theirs.
The "who owns what" lists are shrouded in mystery. Either way - Both companies produce what they think they have rights to. The only governing factor in the mix is WMS Industries - Who have to approve the right to produce the licensed part(s). I think they simply request permission from WMS Industries to produce.
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There does not seem to be a clear line between the two license holders. As an example;
IPB and TPF can produce MM playfields. Both have said they will. IPB have released theirs.
The "who owns what" lists are shrouded in mystery. Either way - Both companies produce what they think they have rights to. The only governing factor in the mix is WMS Industries - Who have to approve the right to produce the licensed part(s). I think they simply request permission from WMS Industries to produce.
So really its whoever out of the two gets into WMS first or whoever has the financial resources to back their money making idea that gets granted the rights to do this............
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Can anyone explain to me what exactly Gene Cunningham and Wayne Gillard bought from Williams respectively?
As far as I can tell they each only got half the pie!?
It's a little confusing to me, one guy can do one thing and the other can do something else.
I think you will find that this is "commercial in confidence" thus confusing things even more.
I think the only way to test it would be for someone to 'infringe' the alleged copywrite and let the court decide. That way all the cards would have to be laid out on the table for all to see. This may not be a desirable outcome for some copywrite holders as it may well expose flaws in their claims.
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Oh its a quagmire oif dirt this issue.. but it does make good forum chat!!
Now then..... USA copyright was only granted IF applied for pre 1985. In other words, unless WMS actually applied for copyright on a machines artwork prior to 1985 it does NOT exist... now this raises the question... did WMS apply for copyright? Im afraid you will never get the true answer to this... but what we can assume is that the market was hot with competition... each company pushing money into R & D for the new technologies and innovations - now do you reckon they really cared too much about copyright? My thoughts are that it was the last on the list and if the funds were running short its never even thought of.
For instance.... SINGLE player GTB games are considered the best - why??
Because the money went into the game play and features rather than the EXTRA relays and score reels etc - in other words - all were done to a budget.. WMS wouldnt be any different..
Also to add... Just cos you purchase WMS/BALLY rights does not grant you the right to actually produce anything! A licence holder HAS to apply to say WMS to produce a 24/1200 coil for instance.. if they want to produce a 22/1200 then permission HAS to be granted once again for this specific item.
In order to successfully sue anyone for a breach of copyright, then you have to also prove loss of earnings... if you dont produce it - how can you prove loss of earnings??
And if you dont have permission to say make cabinet stencils #@# #@#..... then you can hardly sue someone for making them can you as you cant produce them either ( even if you already do)
Only person that can stop you/ grant you permission/ sue you is WMS/BALLY themnselves..
Tread carefully my friends... Oh and hello Wayne <..>
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now thats interesting.
if i understand correctly, you can only sue for breach of copyright if there is a loss of income.
so if joe blow made a stencil set for a pin that nobody makes then joe blow can't be sued because the persons with the legal right to make the stencils is not losing any income and is not making them?
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Yeah it does make for some interesting chat but unfortunately only raised more questions so far @.@
So you can only apply to reproduce plastics or playfields or whatever if you have the rights to do so or permission from the rights holder?
But if we don't know who has the rights to what, then who do we ask?
Gene, Wayne, or Williams?
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Yeah it does make for some interesting chat but unfortunately only raised more questions so far @.@
So you can only apply to reproduce plastics or playfields or whatever if you have the rights to do so or permission from the rights holder?
But if we don't know who has the rights to what, then who do we ask?
Gene, Wayne, or Williams?
Hence the big gray area..
If you have a product that neither License holder is currently producing, you can submit that product to BOTH license holders. If one agrees, then that license holder has to go to WMS Industries for approval - especially if a third party license is involved - example Paramount pictures, or Cassandra Peterson for Elvira etc.. WMS may ask for samples, as it is still a Williams product, made under license.
Good luck with pre 1989 Games as WMS won't allow either license holder to approve any NEW products that they have not been licensed to product already.
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now thats interesting.
if i understand correctly, you can only sue for breach of copyright if there is a loss of income.
so if joe blow made a stencil set for a pin that nobody makes then joe blow can't be sued because the persons with the legal right to make the stencils is not losing any income and is not making them?
The problem here is that Joe Blow will quickly burn the cash in legal fees arguing the point.As i have been told and still retain the email for reference..
"I dont need to be in the right to sue you... i will burn you in legal fees ... i have money to burn unlike you are your f*##ing stupid mates"
Now... does a man who burns his money feel warm?? %.% %.% %.%
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So who are your stupid mates Gavin? :lol
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Do u guys know how to play poker ? If u do, read on.
You are wondering what certains peoples cards are or arent.There is only one way to find out.
If i produce something, and a certain party (or parties) dont want me to produce it, they will do one or two things.
Firstly, they will write to me and tell me to stop.The second thing is that they will make a claim that I am not entitled to produce the said item, and then they will claim that they are entitled to.etc.
Then I will ask them to prove to me (my legal people) that they have a lawful claim , In Australia, that I cannot produce the item, and i will ask them to prove that they can (or cannot).Legally.
You see, u can claim anything u want, but you have to prove to a magistrate that I have infringed somewhere/someway.
You also have to prove that you, the complainant, have your own legal rights to do it as well, or even to make a claim against me.
If i do a contract and say sell you, for a hundred grand,the legal rights to say market Motor Vehicle products, for say, one of the big 3 manufacturers, it doesnt mean it is legal or binding. I have to first prove to you, that i had the legal right to offer you a dealership for Ford to start off with, for example.
If u want to see what a certain unliked melbourne seller reckons he owns, start selling his products, then get your solicitor to make him prove legally that he can stop you.Your own solicitor will tell u real quick, if u can legally or not legally produce something at this point. In order for them to stop you playing your cards, they will have to show you theirs.
And thats where, it dies or doesnt. If u want to abide by the law, simply go that way.
The ARABS have a saying, "If u want to make me do something, make me".
If you want to stop me producing something, make me stop. Sometimes alot harder said, then done.
P.S- it wont cost me a cent for u to stop me, there are no damages unless i make something and then make a dollar off it, or stop u from making a dollar from it.You might get the cost for one items profit,if i sell it, and u might get a small amount for one solicitors letter.That is the legal advice I will go with, for now. Until then, its just all guessing and bluff.
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so is it a breach of copyright to make a part with art work on it that you can not buy, to repair your own pin?
if not then a way around the copyright may be this.
I (party 1) have a pin that needs a said part with art work that i can not buy. So i sell the whole pin to another person (party 2). Now party 2 reproduces the said part with the art work on it to repair the pin he now owns. After the part with the art work has been made and fitted to the pin that party 2 ownes party 1 decides to buy the pin back off party 2.
would this work? As party one sold a pin to party 2, party 2 repaired his own pin then sold it back to party 1.
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Despite the legal minefield, I think most people are prepared to pay a reasonable price to legally purchase the items that are subject to copyright. I know I would prefer the genuine article if it is available.
Economies of scale suggest that even those who hold the rights would not be able to afford to commence action unless there was significant loss of income.
However, often there is no source for certain items.
It appears to me that what really gets people frustrated and determined to find ways to get the items illegally or otherwise is when they are told NO and are not offered any other alternatives / options.
I know in my case, I will move heaven and earth to make something happen when someone says no and offers me no other alternatives.
This is what I believe is at the heart of the agro and distaste here..
J.D.
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would this work? As party one sold a pin to party 2, party 2 repaired his own pin then sold it back to party 1.
lol lotsa new threads today
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i agree
there is nothing more annoying than trying to buy a part, find out no one makes it and has no intention of making it and then says you cant make it. What about my loss i bought something that has been broken or is damaged beyond repair, i cant buy the part, and i cant pay some one to make it so the money i spent buying the item that i cannot have repaired is wasted.
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There is also the "after market" clause.
This states that if a product is past its production run and is no longer produced you have every right to produce it.
This is how classic cars are restored - funnily enough there are not lots of parts sitting in warehouses so people can fix their cars 40 years after they were produced.
Now if you were to sell this item then your wording on its sale has to be very precise and would be for personal restoration only.
This clause also ties in with the proving a loss of income by someone else selling a part.
So... in theory cos it HAS NEVER BEEN TESTED... i can LEGALLY make a backglass for DOODLE BUG as it is no longer produced by the original party and is pre 1985 when automatic copyright came into play.
The ORIGINAL artist may want some kickback if they found out, but they may have signed all rights away...and if rights owners no longer produce then.....
It is a HUGE grey area as no one has ever gone the distance to legally play it out... there have been many C&D's sent out, very little action, and i see artwork produced by MANY people that they could never have been given permission for...
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I like going all the way.If it aint currently available, i will reserve my right to make it available. thats my last comment on the issue.
I am going to play some pinball,thats more fun. ^^^
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Isn't Nick (pinnies4me) a Lawyer?
Yes mate, and maybe I should specialise in copyright law - looks like I'd have a whole bunch of clients ready to go! :lol
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In order to successfully sue anyone for a breach of copyright, then you have to also prove loss of earnings... if you dont produce it - how can you prove loss of earnings??
A loss of earning would be proven as soon as you or i started selling parts & decals.
Anything *we* sell, means WMS 'lost' a potential sale. #@#
Food for thought...
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What concerns me is the fact that people tend to forget that infringing someone's copyright in a commercial manner (ie selling, distributing - even if no profit is made) can be a criminal offense - including fines and even imprisonment. It's all well and good to brag about being able to afford to fight a case, but I'm sure that would be cold comfort as that person waives good bye to the wife and kids taking nothing but a toothbrush and five years supply of lubricant.. ..
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LOL Nick.
The prison officers might be pissed when you roll up in a B-Double tanker full of happy fat....
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In order to successfully sue anyone for a breach of copyright, then you have to also prove loss of earnings... if you dont produce it - how can you prove loss of earnings??
my post deleted.serves no purpose us arguing.
bret
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It's a shame it will cost you a sh*tload of cash to satisfy your curiousity. Do you honestly believe the copyright holders will let this slide without taking action against you? Are you really willing to line your lawyers pockets with your hard earned cash? Even if you win, your court/lawyer costs will be outrageous. Good luck!
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How about we all leave this topic right alone now *%*
It's been done and said and done and said and done and said and done and said and many many times before (((
It drags out personal feelings and animosity amongst members and serves absolutely no good here.
While I truly appreciate anyone attempting to help the hobby in anyway, I feel these 'open ended threads' that are completely full of loose assumptions are truly insignificant these days.
We ALL know what the problem has been and ALL wish it would just GO AWAY......when that happens I will be the first to rejoice, but UNTIL that day happens either make your stuff , have a crack at selling it, if you can do so successfully then thats great for everyone.......but until you can accomplish that then best not to continue the guessing game.
:2cents:
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Well said Wotto! *%*
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My one-liner was quite obvious.....
here's a breakdown for the slow readers ;-)
If you were selling 10 knockoff items,....that's 10 sales that WMS didnt get.
When your sales come to their attention (and they will) it's nighty night jailtime.
I don't know how you couldnt see that?
This was a structured and interesting discussion, but i sense your getting personal, as it would appear everyone is trying to learn and understand copyright in here, and no doubt we appear to be standing on your toes/enterprises huh?
nighty night, lube up lad !!
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yep, lock the thread.
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yep, lock the thread.
Sigh ::)
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i removed my post. i was more pissed at the monopoly. i didnt mean to have a go at u marty. my apologies.
maybe we r best served forgetting the entire thing. i wont bother trying to help anyone with my new non profit venture. too many reasons to fail i hear.again,no reason for us to bicker. we gotta stay friends/friendly.
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:2cents:
I just wanna know why this 2 cent emoticon only has 1 cent !@#
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Because I broke it :lol :lol :lol
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i removed my post. i was more pissed at the monopoly. i didnt mean to have a go at u marty. my apologies.
Good on you Brett, good move.
maybe we r best served forgetting the entire thing. i wont bother trying to help anyone with my new non profit venture. too many reasons to fail i hear.again,no reason for us to bicker. we gotta stay friends/friendly.
That seems to fly in the face of your earlier comments, but if you are giving up, that's your choice. I'm surprised as for the most part the debate seemed pretty mature and some interesting insights were offered.
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maybe we r best served forgetting the entire thing. i wont bother trying to help anyone with my new non profit venture.
Honestly - I reckon if it is in your heart to do it, then try it and see what U come up with for your own games at first , then if it works for you ...show us all some pics of the end result , some detail of the process used to achieve the end result ( as in be proud of it ) ......and THEN look at the legalities you may come across in re-producing stuff like that once you know you can do it ^^^
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Geez Brett, you seemed pretty determined earlier on so why the sudden retreat?
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Brett may feel like he will be the "doombringer" for AP if he goes ahead !@#
Like sum1 said a few days ago, go about your business quietly, and use your resources to see how far you can go.
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Its been a real long day.
But to be honest, I usually stick to myself and do my own thing.this is the first time i have ever really bothered to join a forum type thing in my 40 yrs, cause usually, when u r in a room of say 10 people, 9 are negative, 1 is positive. I dont handle that real well.It brings me down.
I dont need the money, i dont need all the decals, it was for the members. But when the majority of people say 1 thing via PM's and another publicly, it makes me feel it aint worth the time.I lose heart.
Courage and a steadfast belief in what u r doing will give u any one a fighting chance.
But being involved in anything where people think u r going to get locked up, or go poor, or get lubed etc etc,isnt going to inspire me to
proceed for people who may be laughing at me, waiting for me to fail.
If i had of told u 12 months ago, i will own close to 30 pins by the 12 month mark, when i didnt even own one 12 months ago, u would have laughed at me too probably, and thats ok, but 12 months on i have succeeded.I have them.
I do not know how to fail. It aint in my system.
All my life people told me i would be a failure. They all told me dont try etc. I proved them wrong and will continue too.
I will just go about my business, do the decals etc, and again, in 12 months time, i will say to anyone who doubted me, i never gave up.
You guys have been good to me. I appreciate that.
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Christ - I just want to get bits for my machines!
Nobody uses these old pieces of shit to make money anymore! ('cept for the rooted "junkyard" @ karingal cinema I seen on Sunday...) #@#
Like most here I just want a nice clean machine that family/people can come and enjoy! I introduced a bunch of 12 y/o's to a pinball machine the other week... Never seen or played one before. Bloody sad.
Look - If I had the skills to make this stuff myself, I would, we all would! If someone wants to use their talents to make something for me - they will be repaid! Giving someone a slab is no different to slipping them a 50.
I don't give a toss. I want parts. There is no point owning a showpiece if I can't get bits to fix it! Whoever can get/make/swipe them for me, is a friend of mine...
You boys want to play handbags at 30 paces, go right ahead - I will be laughing at you!
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I think people are just stating facts, rather than being negative towards you.
Unfortunately the facts ARE negative.
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Do u guys know how to play poker ? If u do, read on.
You are wondering what certains peoples cards are or arent.There is only one way to find out.
If i produce something, and a certain party (or parties) dont want me to produce it, they will do one or two things.
Firstly, they will write to me and tell me to stop.The second thing is that they will make a claim that I am not entitled to produce the said item, and then they will claim that they are entitled to.etc.
Then I will ask them to prove to me (my legal people) that they have a lawful claim , In Australia, that I cannot produce the item, and i will ask them to prove that they can (or cannot).Legally.
You see, u can claim anything u want, but you have to prove to a magistrate that I have infringed somewhere/someway.
You also have to prove that you, the complainant, have your own legal rights to do it as well, or even to make a claim against me.
If i do a contract and say sell you, for a hundred grand,the legal rights to say market Motor Vehicle products, for say, one of the big 3 manufacturers, it doesnt mean it is legal or binding. I have to first prove to you, that i had the legal right to offer you a dealership for Ford to start off with, for example.
If u want to see what a certain unliked melbourne seller reckons he owns, start selling his products, then get your solicitor to make him prove legally that he can stop you.Your own solicitor will tell u real quick, if u can legally or not legally produce something at this point. In order for them to stop you playing your cards, they will have to show you theirs.
And thats where, it dies or doesnt. If u want to abide by the law, simply go that way.
The ARABS have a saying, "If u want to make me do something, make me".
If you want to stop me producing something, make me stop. Sometimes alot harder said, then done.
P.S- it wont cost me a cent for u to stop me, there are no damages unless i make something and then make a dollar off it, or stop u from making a dollar from it.You might get the cost for one items profit,if i sell it, and u might get a small amount for one solicitors letter.That is the legal advice I will go with, for now. Until then, its just all guessing and bluff.
The above post was very informative to me, thanks for taking the time to post.
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Caveman, i feel for you,the whole time you have said you were not doing this for money,just to help out some fellow members who might like to tidy up there pin's with somthing that they could'nt do for themselves,i don't know why people keep pushing that money was going to be made here??It seems that is all anyone is worried about,how much am i missing out on for an item that does not exist!
For me i don't really care if my pin has a scrape or dent here and there,pins were/are made to make money out on site,
Copyright,.....does this exist in china????,.... &&
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Caveman, i feel for you,the whole time you have said you were not doing this for money,just to help out some fellow members who might like to tidy up there pin's with somthing that they could'nt do for themselves,i don't know why people keep pushing that money was going to be made here??It seems that is all anyone is worried about,how much am i missing out on for an item that does not exist!
For me i don't really care if my pin has a scrape or dent here and there,pins were/are made to make money out on site,
Copyright,.....does this exist in china????,.... &&
It sure does and they are very BIG on cracking down on it. That might come as a surprise to some but it is true. The simple fact is that BIG bucks can be made by bootleggers so they keep doing it BUT the risks to them are high. In any case it's not China we are interested in here - even if things were made/printed there it is when they arrive and are made available HERE that the problem arises.
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Homepin, be careful when quoting posts. You seem to be screwing up the quote tags so that your post looks like part of the post you are trying to quote. Your post needs to go in between these tags:
[ quote ] YOUR TEXT HERE [ /quote ]
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What is the penalty for a person that purchases a "breach of copyright" item? !@#
Matthew
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Homepin, be careful when quoting posts. You seem to be screwing up the quote tags so that your post looks like part of the post you are trying to quote. Your post needs to go in between these tags:
[ quote ] YOUR TEXT HERE [ /quote ]
Creech its a problem with the forum software, and it bugs me. Sometimes when you quote another post the flashing cursor appears inside the post you wanted to quote. I have had to go back and edit so many times because of this issue. I think this is more likely to happen when you quote a larger post.
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Caveman, you have legal advice, go with it. There are items on ebay being offered for sale based on a replacement premise, i.e you must send your old one in before we can send a new one. Surely this is being done on a right of repair for something you own basis. Good luck and keep us posted, even if by pm.
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Homepin, be careful when quoting posts. You seem to be screwing up the quote tags so that your post looks like part of the post you are trying to quote. Your post needs to go in between these tags:
[ quote ] YOUR TEXT HERE [ /quote ]
Creech its a problem with the forum software, and it bugs me. Sometimes when you quote another post the flashing cursor appears inside the post you wanted to quote. I have had to go back and edit so many times because of this issue. I think this is more likely to happen when you quote a larger post.
Sorry but there is nothing wrong with the forum software. See I'm quoting your post here and I don't see the problem you just mentioned.
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What is the penalty for a person that purchases a "breach of copyright" item? !@#
Matthew
**&
<.>
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What is the penalty for a person that purchases a "breach of copyright" item? !@#
Matthew
I don't think there would be any. They would have to prove that you knowingly purchased said item.
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Homepin, be careful when quoting posts. You seem to be screwing up the quote tags so that your post looks like part of the post you are trying to quote. Your post needs to go in between these tags:
[ quote ] YOUR TEXT HERE [ /quote ]
Creech its a problem with the forum software, and it bugs me. Sometimes when you quote another post the flashing cursor appears inside the post you wanted to quote. I have had to go back and edit so many times because of this issue. I think this is more likely to happen when you quote a larger post.
Sorry but there is nothing wrong with the forum software. See I'm quoting your post here and I don't see the problem you just mentioned.
Users need to understand to scroll down past the quoted text BEFORE they start typing their additional comments...
see? this worked nicely.
Nothing wrong the the software. #@#
MM. (off to the workshop to blame my tools......) :lol
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It inserts the flashing cursor into the body of text being quoted, and it shouldnt do that. Its either my browser, or the board software. Not a big issue, but believe me it does happen, and thats probably the case with homepin. I have seen other guys posts appearing as one big quote blob as well.
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For the record (if it helps anyone) i'm using firefox browser.
Besdies the browser, i wonder if the board software assumes media-decoding such as flashplayer and others are installed etc?
MM.
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I'm using IE8, if you click on quote, it doesn't have a cursor, and won't do anything if you start typing. Its up to you to click your mouse at the end of the last quote box, then stab the enter button a few times, then type in your reply.
I have never had a problem with it.
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It inserts the flashing cursor into the body of text being quoted, and it shouldnt do that. Its either my browser, or the board software. Not a big issue, but believe me it does happen, and thats probably the case with homepin. I have seen other guys posts appearing as one big quote blob as well.
Oh now I get you...In that case I think the problem appears to be between the computer and the chair. %.%
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*!@
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I know what Greg might be referring to and Matt has hit the nail on the head. You just need to watch where the quote ends and where you start you post. Multi quote posts can be a bit difficult - but you get used to it after a while !
Anyway, what was this thread about again ?
%.%
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For those of you who read Pingame journal in the latest issue #136 under the Nucore release party article/interview with Chuck Hess there are a couple of paragraphs that will shed some light on patents
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It inserts the flashing cursor into the body of text being quoted, and it shouldnt do that. Its either my browser, or the board software. Not a big issue, but believe me it does happen, and thats probably the case with homepin. I have seen other guys posts appearing as one big quote blob as well.
Hmmm, it has never happened to me. I have to click on the reply box BEFORE I can enter any text, so if I am quoting I click at the end of the current quote.
Besides, I proof-read my stuff before I post. I know most people don't (and it doesn't bother me if they don't), but I like MY posts to be correctly spelled and vaguely grammatically correct as well.
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...... but I like MY posts to be correctly spelled and vaguely grammatically correct as well.
Yay! great to see someone NOT use the word "spelt" ...... #@# :lol
Following my previous comment about software loaded, also make sure you have the latest Java-reader app installed, this may also help your quote problems. (not sure if this board requires any java enhacement, but it might help).
MM.
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I am using Google Chrome as my browser in case anyone was wondering. But Mozilla Firefox was behaving in the same manner.
And English is a living language so it can change...
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Yay! great to see someone NOT use the word "spelt" ...... #@# :lol
And what is wrong with "spelt"?
(Besides also being a type of wheat)
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I am assuming that stencils are covered under the same topic? (copyright)
i have noticed on the stencil thread that a new member, with their first post he has asked for "Williams" stencils
I have brought this up as i am curious and in no way mean any disrespect to retropin
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I am assuming that stencils are covered under the same topic? (copyright)
i have noticed on the stencil thread that a new member, with their first post he has asked for "Williams" stencils
I have brought this up as i am curious and in no way mean any disrespect to retropin
Hey, stop trying to get this back on topic!!
Yes, I imagine stencils would be covered under the same copyright rules.
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I am assuming that stencils are covered under the same topic? (copyright)
i have noticed on the stencil thread that a new member, with their first post he has asked for "Williams" stencils
I have brought this up as i am curious and in no way mean any disrespect to retropin
Hey, stop trying to get this back on topic!!
Yes, I imagine stencils would be covered under the same copyright rules.
silly me, trying to get back on topic.
whoops i am writing in the wrong area. #@#
thats better, now my words will show up in the right area <.>
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I am assuming that stencils are covered under the same topic? (copyright)
i have noticed on the stencil thread that a new member, with their first post he has asked for "Williams" stencils
I have brought this up as i am curious and in no way mean any disrespect to retropin
Hey, stop trying to get this back on topic!!
Yes, I imagine stencils would be covered under the same copyright rules.
silly me, trying to get back on topic.
whoops i am writing in the wrong area. #@#
thats better, now my words will show up in the right area <.>
See, wasn't that hard - and I have fixed my quote so that your quote is in the right spot as well!
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can some body connect this thead to life support? I think its dieing :tumble:
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It was dead a long time ago but just hadn't realised it.
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mcdonalds just bought williams
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I think the cave man has done a runner? !@#
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I think the cave man has done a runner? !@#
Nah, the cave man is just doing what he knows best, making lots of cash and being positive. I know what he is up to other than making cash but i am sworn to secrecy. &&
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I think the cave man has done a runner? !@#
Nah, the cave man is just doing what he knows best, making lots of cash and being positive. I know what he is up to other than making cash but i am sworn to secrecy. &&
Well I'm sure the hobby will be waiting anxiously for the next installment. Been an interesting read, and shows that the understanding of copyright is not strong, and that the rights of copyright owners not well understood, nor the interaction between copyright, trademarks and patents.
My advice - tread carefully. People have paid for licenses to do things, and if that is their income stream, they will be prepared to defend their rights.
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Nick, can u provide any informative legal sites in oz that we can readup on? or does info like this simply not exist?
In a perfect world, i'd love to see books published for the layman, "dummies guide to copyright", "dummy's guide to oz law", etc etc...
One thing i can't stand about legal books and docs, is the amount of subtext, points, and addendums that completely baffle the reader.
By the time i've finished reading the paragraph and all it's sub-points, i have NO IDEA what i just read. *)*
MM.
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Its my understanding that such matters can be tested, and possibly by precedant. To me its seems pretty obvious that the owner of these rites is entitled to protect them.
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yes the owner is obviously entitled to protect her/his rights BUT there is the problem - nobody knows what they are exactly?
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Best thing to do is contact either Licensee or WMS direct. They probably won't provide you with a list of licenses they own.
The other thing you can do is engage a professional in copyright laws.
Either way, there will be plenty of red tape and costs involved.
The licensees paid for the right to own these licenses, and they will actively protect their assets. At the end of the day, you risk being prosecuted by either licensee, WMS or the third party licensee.
So if you were to illegally reproduce Addams Family Decals. Be prepared to hear from ;
WMS
Either or both licensee
Paramount Pictures
The Addams Family trust
and others..
Hypothetically - if you owned the equipment to produce sideart - You could contact either licensee and ask permission to reproduce the decals. Send a sample to either licensee, which would be forwarded to WMS. WMS would contact Paramount Pictures, Addams Family trust and other rights holders. If ALL these parties agreed - You could write a contract with the licensee and produce the decals. Then you would be under license to produce "with permission".
Now if you did do this (with permission) and some other dude prints out decals out the back of his shop with a cheap inkjet and sells them off as "originals" - You would be pissed ?
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Nick, can u provide any informative legal sites in oz that we can readup on? or does info like this simply not exist?
This is the Commonwealth web site. http://www.copyright.org.au/
Copyright laws and most intellectual property rights are governed by federal law being one of the original powers (section 51 (xviii.) of the Constitution Act) vested in the Commonwealth in 1901 - funny how something created over 100 years ago would be such a large area today.
Some of the "Fact Sheets" are a fairly straightforward read. But be careful - they claim copyright on their pamphlets, so I couldn't post an example here!
True!! :)
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hahahaha that's funny how the pamphets are copyright......you'd think they'd let an infosheet be 'open' sheesh...
I also did some reading on 'copyright council' site, but they seem to want to sell me all the booklets for various areas, not too much info actually ONLINE.
oh well.
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I am certain that anyone doing anything commercially would study such sites and then seek legal advice from a copyright expert.
I didnt see anywhere in any of the previous posts where anyone said they were EVER doing anything illegal.
unfortunately, this was ASSUMED by some. certainly not the case. I think that site is worth studing for any product/s.
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I thought people were saying "tread carefully" in this area as it is easy to infringe copyright given the law is pretty wide-ranging.
The other thing I thought was being said was that if something is produced which does infringe copyright (whether by design or not doesn't matter) then to protect this site it cannot be offered for sale here.
It will be interesting to see what happens a few months down the track.
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I can understand the protection against cheap copies etc. (Although what do you do when the "factory originals" are cheap crap?)
Where do we stand doing a "like for like" copy?
i.e Can I rip the stuffed cab art off my party zone - get it copied from the original which is then destroyed?
I thought doing something along these lines is "legal"?
Reason for my interest in all of this:
I am fortunate to work with a "coating technologist" (He used to formulate the paint for Dulux and has worked in screen printing) - if it is a paint or an ink, this guy is the bomb! I started chatting to him about restoring glasses and playfields - he loses me in 10 seconds flat! Starts raving about celluloid cross-linking and surface tension...
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There's been discussion from time to time that restoring your own game is OK, but I haven't researched the truth of this claim - might have to do that. Fixing your own game does not cross into the commercial area so the criminal issues of piracy are not of concern. And as for a private action, seems it would be a bit pointless and stupid taking action against a private owner of a pinball machine using artwork to restore the thing (although you never know, owning a right does not equate with being bright).
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I firmly understand that even copying something for your own "one-off" home use is still copyright infringement, afterall, technically, the manufacturer has lost 1 sale, because you made your own. (yeh i know what you'll say, the manufacturer doesnt exist anymore blah blah blah....but SOMEONE holds those rights, and you would technically need their permission to produce your own copy, but of course NOBODY does that for the sake of home use).
This was EXACTLY the case with people copying "1" copy of their own PURCHASED CD's and DVD's, to protect the originals in storage, and only playing the copy.
If the copy got damaged, it would be thrown out and you would copy another without ever risking your PURCHASED copy to become faulty.
It was only recent years that Aus laws relaxed (or were still in talks) with HOME COPIES, and you can legally have "1" copy of each CD/DVD you actually purchased for the right to protect your original.
I'm not exactly sure if that law was ever passed or not?
Music distribution was fighting it so they wouldnt lose sales, and public were pushing for it so they dont have to keep buying the same CD/DVD every few months when their kids scratch it....
MM.
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I think there is a Law that gives the owner of a machine "the right to restore", or something like that. You can produce for your own game.
Years ago I ordered a set of Pro Football "flipper bat" decals. PBR had run out of them - "Out if Stock- Sorry" ! So I asked WHEN the next "run" was scheduled. The response was "When there is enough interest" - So I asked if I could make my own set - and I was given permission to produce my own set of decals for my own machine - No problems at all.
I also asked if PBR had the original plans of the Pro Football cabinet - dimension etc.. They didn't. I was asked why, and I told Steve that I needed to scratch build a base. He told me I could produce the entire cabinet, but the moment I made a surplus cabinet tom my needs - He wanted to know.
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There's been discussion from time to time that restoring your own game is OK, but I haven't researched the truth of this claim - might have to do that. Fixing your own game does not cross into the commercial area so the criminal issues of piracy are not of concern. And as for a private action, seems it would be a bit pointless and stupid taking action against a private owner of a pinball machine using artwork to restore the thing (although you never know, owning a right does not equate with being bright).
Yep, and we all know who the last bit would be referring to... !!@
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I think there is a Law that gives the owner of a machine "the right to restore", or something like that. You can produce for your own game.
Years ago I ordered a set of Pro Football "flipper bat" decals. PBR had run out of them - "Out if Stock- Sorry" ! So I asked WHEN the next "run" was scheduled. The response was "When there is enough interest" - So I asked if I could make my own set - and I was given permission to produce my own set of decals for my own machine - No problems at all.
I also asked if PBR had the original plans of the Pro Football cabinet - dimension etc.. They didn't. I was asked why, and I told Steve that I needed to scratch build a base. He told me I could produce the entire cabinet, but the moment I made a surplus cabinet tom my needs - He wanted to know.
Well I tried getting cab art for PZ off W.G. - no interest and too hard to make as it's fluro...
Should I ask him if I can go and get my own made? #@#
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Interesting stuff Nino....ahhh, copyright, it just gets thicker and darker hehehe
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I re-iterate, Lot to be said for quietly getting on with your business. Don't make a fuss!
Ask too many questions these days and you will be sure to find at least 1 pollically correct "do gooder" who will stop you from doing almost everything. Including having fun at no ones's expense!
It's called justifying their existence and unfortunately it's a growing business!
Quietly ...shusshh...
Quietly ...shusshh...
Just get on with life and enjoy your privacy. Why make a fuss if you do not need to!!!
The air time provides those who think they could, (but have not for whatever reason), the ability to grab the microphone and we should avoid that.
Let's get on with life and enjoy what we have until someone stops it and let's not give them any more horespower than our existing taxpayer funded systems already do to feed them.
J.D.
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The crap that JD is talking about stopped several pages ago......we're past all that.
The recent posts have been maturely discussing some copyright issues & angles, and has nothing to do with the negative tone of your response...
I'm sure we all understand "keep it to yourself, hush hush, get on with fun"
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Good!
J.D.
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J D is entitled to his opinion. I didnt think it was crap. ^^^
What i have found interesting about any of the decals/copyrights posts is just how easy a batch of blokes can become so easily divided, over whether someone can or cant do something, or whether someone should or shouldnt do something.
Decals was just the "product" for discussion,so to speak. The members did the rest.
What i have found most amazing, is just how little research has been done by so many who have been in this hobby/industry for so long.
In ten years, not one person has thought about reproducing something for themselves or their mates, for the pinball industry/hobbyists.
Not one person sought expert advice from a copyright expert.
But, i gotta say, after hearing what i have heard, and seeing what i have seen, its seems most are interested in what cant, or what shouldnt be done, as opposed to what can be done, and what should be done. No wonder the industry has been stagnant in these areas til people like Mark stepped up in recent times.
Most people, would have given up on any new ideas by now.The mounting wave of "copyright this" and "copyright that" seems to me to be a real easy escape clause for those who dont want to see others succeed. 9 out of 10 people will always find a reason for failure.Only 1 outta 10 will keep going and not accept defeat.
This copyright/decal issue,in the end, was alot more about how members treat other members, when people disagree,and alot less about decals/copyright than first comes to mind. From an outside point of view, i reckon anyone would probably say "they dont want change bad enough, let em have what they have got, they dont want it bad enough yet". (change)
As soon as i finish this post, someone will say something negative, and ofcourse disagree. Wait for those 9 negative posts. Then , if we are lucky enough, we might get the one positive post. Seeing JD get put down for offering his opinion, thats the "easy division" i am talking about. There doesnt seem to be as much give n take as i thought this forum originally had, or requires ? !@# !@#
Anyways, bring on the 9 outta 10. lol ^^^
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well, he was talking about something several pages ago....we're all over it !
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Caveman,it must be a pinball thing,half the member's on here own a multi board 48in1 or run mame with space invaders art stuck on the side of there generic cab's and no one say's anything! All these games and art is copyrighted????? Yes any multi board is a pirated version of the games that are on them,
So all the people that feel so strongly about this thread sell your cabs or put in a genuine game board back in and scrape off that art you downloaded off the net, yer right! lol <.>
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No-one is chasing you with a big stick on the arcade side of things...
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As soon as i finish this post, someone will say something negative, and ofcourse disagree. Wait for those 9 negative posts. Then , if we are lucky enough, we might get the one positive post. Seeing JD get put down for offering his opinion, thats the "easy division" i am talking about. There doesnt seem to be as much give n take as i thought this forum originally had, or requires ? !@# !@#
Anyways, bring on the 9 outta 10. lol ^^^
I think you might not have enough experience with debate among people who each respect each others opinion (although might disagree). In an imperfect world where we are all capable of greatness and error, debate allows people to think through their points of view while being tested by others. It's debate that usually results in finding the best outcome when the answers are uncertain. That's all this thread turned out to be - a group debating. Unfortunately there's always the possibility of personalities coming through and the debate becoming personal, it happens, and we HTFU and deal with it.
Don't mistake caution with negativity - there are always going to be people who know a little more about an area, and accept their comments as part of gaining the knowledge that any successful enterprise needs. Every consistently successful person I know (not the one off made it good by being in the right business at the right time) knows the benefit of gaining knowledge from every available area before embarking on a venture - that's why they are consistently successful.
And to suggest that disagreeing is negative - that's a little conceited, isn't it?
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Hey cave, I think you'll find this forum is very liberal in the type of discussion we promote here. pinnies4me is spot on, don't mistake caution with negativity. Just because someone disagrees with your way of thinking doesn't mean you can't stick with your way of thinking. What you might mistake as negativity might be others trying to highlight some of the pitfalls you might be facing in your endeavours. If you wish to dive head first into your "decal project" without covering all bases then who are we to stop you? I mean really, what do you care what we say anyway as you've made it quite clear that you know best and we are all just nay sayers? I wish you the best of luck in your travels but please don't insult our intelligence any further with your negativity diatribe.
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Creech, u couldnt get any more incorrect my friend, perhaps you missed the part where i said i felt it was negative when a member like JD gets told he is full of crap for voicing his opinion.
Then u come on here and tell me i am full of diatribe etc. Thats the exact garbage talk i am mentioning. Why do u feel the need to insult people.?
When i type a post, i pretend i am in the room with the person i am talking to. That way, i dont insult him/her.
Where i come from, u would want to be brave to tell someone face to face that they are full of crap etc. But these WG tactics of being a keyboard commando seem to have been taken up by a few, including you Creech.
You see, u did exactly what i said would happen, u got on here and started with negative crap, good onya mate.Feel better.This is the part where i turn my back to you, and walk out of the room, cause i think u sound silly.I will stick to the positive stuff. You can stick to insulting people if it makes you feel better.
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Creech, u couldnt get any more incorrect my friend, perhaps you missed the part where i said i felt it was negative when a member like JD gets told he is full of crap for voicing his opinion.
Then u come on here and tell me i am full of diatribe etc. Thats the exact garbage talk i am mentioning. Why do u feel the need to insult people.?
When i type a post, i pretend i am in the room with the person i am talking to. That way, i dont insult him/her.
Where i come from, u would want to be brave to tell someone face to face that they are full of crap etc. But these WG tactics of being a keyboard commando seem to have been taken up by a few, including you Creech.
You see, u did exactly what i said would happen, u got on here and started with negative crap, good onya mate.Feel better.This is the part where i turn my back to you, and walk out of the room, cause i think u sound silly.I will stick to the positive stuff. You can stick to insulting people if it makes you feel better.
I think you need to re read your posts. This thread was informational and and open discussion on the topic of Copyrights. We closed the other thread on your Decal project because it went downhill and became a thread which deteriorated int o a slanging match - Which is the same direction this thread is heading. See a trend here ?
Whatever you want to do - Go for it. Just keep the negative and personal comments off this thread - That goes for anyone else.
Keep to the topic, or it will be closed.
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Inappropriate comments removed and thread locked...sheesh...
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Creech, u couldnt get any more incorrect my friend, perhaps you missed the part where i said i felt it was negative when a member like JD gets told he is full of crap for voicing his opinion.
Then u come on here and tell me i am full of diatribe etc. Thats the exact garbage talk i am mentioning. Why do u feel the need to insult people.?
When i type a post, i pretend i am in the room with the person i am talking to. That way, i dont insult him/her.
Where i come from, u would want to be brave to tell someone face to face that they are full of crap etc. But these WG tactics of being a keyboard commando seem to have been taken up by a few, including you Creech.
You see, u did exactly what i said would happen, u got on here and started with negative crap, good onya mate.Feel better.This is the part where i turn my back to you, and walk out of the room, cause i think u sound silly.I will stick to the positive stuff. You can stick to insulting people if it makes you feel better.
I think you need to track through all your posts on here and see why it has ended the way it has. I think you will come to the same conclusion as most people have. It's easy I guess to say you're walking out on us and call us keyboard commandos when in fact what you have just done is the same thing. It sounds like you want to leave AP for good so if you do, let me know and we can remove your account.