The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: pinball god on November 23, 2008, 08:01:02 PM
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Flipper on T2 blows fuse 102 if you hold the flipper for a short time....say 2-3 seconds. I can see the fuse light slowly and bang/gone.
Just rebuilt flippers as the right hand flipper as was sluggish and intermittently misfiring/flipping when pressed.
Any ideas of what I can try? Thanks
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What is Fuse 102 for ?
Is the EOS gapped correctly ? Check the diodes on the coils.
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Would seem that the high power is staying on, so likely the EoS as Strangeways mentions, might not be closing, so the high power is staying on and the fuse is doing what it should.
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Spot on Nick - The EOS is not adjusted, or there is a wire loose... The coil will most likely be warm after the first 5 minutes of playing. As stated - the fuse is doing its job !
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Thanks fellas will have a look tonight.
One other question seeing for my troubleshooting I have blown all 2.5A fuses in my possession. I have a few 5A. Will it be ok to use a 5A or best I wait until I get my hands on the correct ones? Will wait until I hear from you before trying.
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DO NOT USE THE 5A !!!!!
Sorry for shouting. If you do, the fuse will not blow quickly enough and the coil will burn. Get the correct rating, any Jaycar will have them.
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i have most of them
all call Owen he carries most too
mark
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i have most of them
all call Owen he carries most too
mark
Not up on your site yet ??
Greg has them -
http://www.rtbb.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_87&products_id=532
Or Jaycar / Dick Smith would carry them
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Or Jaycar / Dick Smith would carry them
Welcome to my irritating world. A world where you set off to Dick Smiths or Jaycar to get 2.5A Slo Blo fuses, a very basic request indeed, only to find they only stock them in M205 size and not 3AG.
Can get 2A or 3A but no 2.5A.
Now had i wanted a battery operated head massager i would definately have been in luck!
So you have a choice, over fuse/ under fuse, change fuse clips or piggy back a M205 to a blown 3AG fuse.
All of which i find bloody irritating!!!!!
LOL-- rant, rant, bloody crappy jaycar...rant rant
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DO NOT USE THE 5A !!!!!
Sorry for shouting. If you do, the fuse will not blow quickly enough and the coil will burn. Get the correct rating, any Jaycar will have them.
Thanks for the warning, my ears are bleeding from the yelling. I thought it would be a poor option but didn't know why the amperage was lower for the flippers. Thanks again
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What I found is that you just need to bite the bullet and buy a quantity of each different type from someone like Pinball Life or GPE. That way you will never be short.
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I've check the eos and seemed ok, looked similar to the LHS one. Couldn't find any loose wires as well. The leaf switch that is physically activated by the flipper button seems to be very close to the ball release trigger mech. I can't see for sure but would love to test this theory by raising the playfield and trying the flipper. But no fuses yet. I just wonder if when activated it is also touching metal or something on the ball release mech.
Is this a possibility or highly unlikely?
I'm more of an economical flipper player and don't over do the flippering or need to hold and trap balls, so that's why I reckon the problem didn't become that apparent after the rebuild.
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What I found is that you just need to bite the bullet and buy a quantity of each different type from someone like Pinball Life or GPE. That way you will never be short.
Very good tip, will do exactly that. Ill check my screws & nuts kit and update my supplies of all these "consumables"
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Sounds like a good plan.
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Sounds like a good plan.
Hey Creeh, which is a good plan? Plan A lifting the playfield or Plan B getting heaps more fuses or Plan C both. Just wasn't sure of your response so thought I'd add a multiple choice question LOL
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I've check the eos and seemed ok, looked similar to the LHS one. Couldn't find any loose wires as well. The leaf switch that is physically activated by the flipper button seems to be very close to the ball release trigger mech. I can't see for sure but would love to test this theory by raising the playfield and trying the flipper. But no fuses yet. I just wonder if when activated it is also touching metal or something on the ball release mech.
Is this a possibility or highly unlikely?
I'm more of an economical flipper player and don't over do the flippering or need to hold and trap balls, so that's why I reckon the problem didn't become that apparent after the rebuild.
Possible - But also check the diodes on the suspect coil.
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I've got a T2 which has had full flipper kit done and work very well (thanks MarkC).!
If you want me to post photos of mine, just to show positioning, clearance, wiring, EOS etc...just let me know and I'll throw them up...
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I've check the eos and seemed ok, looked similar to the LHS one. Couldn't find any loose wires as well. The leaf switch that is physically activated by the flipper button seems to be very close to the ball release trigger mech. I can't see for sure but would love to test this theory by raising the playfield and trying the flipper. But no fuses yet. I just wonder if when activated it is also touching metal or something on the ball release mech.
Is this a possibility or highly unlikely?
I'm more of an economical flipper player and don't over do the flippering or need to hold and trap balls, so that's why I reckon the problem didn't become that apparent after the rebuild.
Possible - But also check the diodes on the suspect coil.
Novice at this, what do you mean by check the diodes, voltage? please advise if possible Thanks
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I've got a T2 which has had full flipper kit done and work very well (thanks MarkC).!
If you want me to post photos of mine, just to show positioning, clearance, wiring, EOS etc...just let me know and I'll throw them up...
That's very kind of you Marty, pictures can always help. If its not too much trouble I'd appreciate it and I can print them out to file in my fix-it book.
However, your avatar looks pretty awesome, puts my games room to shame. I don't know if I should talk to people like you LOL (just kidding). Your T2 looks in good nick bet it plays better than mine at the moment. I'm using my fingers as flippers!!
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Do you have a soldering iron and a multimeter ?
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Do you have a soldering iron and a multimeter ?
Yep and not bad at both. BTW my TZ little flipper just died last night (unrelated) so it looks like I'll be an expert on flippers soon, but will tackle T2 first.
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Unsolder one side of the coil lug (you can do all three if you like - just remember where they go) - set the MM to OHMS and check the resistance of the coil (outside lugs then middle left lug / middle right lug).. If you measure a short or a value less than 2 ohms - you have a problem. Set the MM to "diode" and then test the diodes...
If the coil was shorted, the fuse would blow as soon as the game starts... If it happens within a minute or two of playing, then the EOS is not gapped - the coil will be hot to touch.
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Thanks mate will give it a try when my fuses come in.
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http://img361.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leftgw9.jpg
http://img361.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rightyy8.jpg
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Thanks Marty just printed nice colour prints of it for my cheat book. BTW I see you got leds on the inserts. How they work out? I think Greg sells these and I was thinking of maybe trying them out with my current order or fuses and coils but thought I'd hold off until I knew a little more about them.
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Thanks Marty just printed nice colour prints of it for my cheat book. BTW I see you got leds on the inserts. How they work out? I think Greg sells these and I was thinking of maybe trying them out with my current order or fuses and coils but thought I'd hold off until I knew a little more about them.
I'm a huge fan of the PF LED's.....It made my T2 100% better. Less voltage and heat (not that I notice it) but the whites, greens & blues absolutely pop out and are super bright....I even put a few whites in the backbox....
It cost about $200 or thereabouts from Greg...mostly #555 and a handful of #44's & 4 x 906's. Don't go by manual do a visual and match the colours. The reds are the only ones which don't make a massive difference but still worth doing....
I took a crappy video of LED's in previous topic:
http://aussiepinball.com/index.php?topic=262.15
Have your fuses arrived yet? How did the coils checkout?
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The Led's look great, I did similar to my ToM but the ones Greg have look better made. I had real problems getting the #555's to work and had to adjust the contacts until they worked.
On my T2 (no led's yet) I actually used coloured bulbs on the white target inserts so that then the skill shot is on they colours alternate ie red, yellow, white, yellow, red etc. Looks ok but would be better with led's
I got my fuses and quickly blew one testing a theory. Have tested the coil but have a new one waiting just in case. Will try this weekend. Thanks for asking. Did also look at your pixs and mine seem similar however, the coil lugs are on the opposite ends. Is that due to a different brand of coil?
Also is it necessary to take off the wires to measure ohms, if so why for my own interest.
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The Led's look great, I did similar to my ToM but the ones Greg have look better made. I had real problems getting the #555's to work and had to adjust the contacts until they worked.
On my T2 (no led's yet) I actually used coloured bulbs on the white target inserts so that then the skill shot is on they colours alternate ie red, yellow, white, yellow, red etc. Looks ok but would be better with led's
I got my fuses and quickly blew one testing a theory. Have tested the coil but have a new one waiting just in case. Will try this weekend. Thanks for asking. Did also look at your pixs and mine seem similar however, the coil lugs are on the opposite ends. Is that due to a different brand of coil?
Also is it necessary to take off the wires to measure ohms, if so why for my own interest.
I am not too sure re the coil lugs at opposite ends...I remember reading it should be away from the coil stop end as the constant vibrations can cause damage / crack solder joints...but I stand to be corrected on this one...
Re the testing of the coil, not sure if it has been posted previously but I would recommend having a read of this site:
http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index2.htm#trans
There is a number of sections for each year / type of machine & brand specific as well. It is truely a bible for pin repair and is understandable for a noob like myself!
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thanks will have a look
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Time for a laugh. I check the coil & seemed ok, check diode looked ok, thought stuff it replace the coil. Never did this but hey its only 2 screws & a bracket and its off. Replaced coil but had real struggle putting the bracket on as the screws don't line up with the holes. When I got them in the plunger would cease. No matter what I did the plunger was either ceased or struggled to return.
Now the stupid part. I remember the tech saying something about cable ties when he did the rebuild (I'll talk to him to confirm this), but I reckon the last fixer found the same problem as me and cable tied the bracket in place. My tech thought he'd do the right thing but must have missed the fact the plunger had a hard time moving.
Put a couple of ties and the fuse won't blow, but I don't like the fix it as the flipper can be a little sluggish at time returning. Might look at elongating the holes on the bracket (what do you think?)
I'm no electronics man but I figure the load on the plunger would have sent the amps spastic...yes-no?
Thanks for all your help guys appreciate it heaps.
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If you move the flipper bat manually is it getting stuck or sluggish (ie when power is off) on the way back down?
Only reason I'm asking is I had a similar problem which I think was the spring on the coil stop. I had it in the wrong way...As soon as I fixed it flipper was moving perfectly...
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Didn't look at that, so will give it a go, but the minute I use the screw(s) you need to use a bit of force to move it manually. I think the bracket kicks the coil out of square if you know what I mean and so the plunger rod then rubs hard against the sleeve. But I'll check your suggestion out as it all helps. Thanks
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Sounds like the collar (spring) is against the coil / coil stop.. It should be at the other end - exactly what Marty was saying.
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Sorry guys but can't seem to follow. Are we talking the only spring I can see that attaches near the yellow capicitor and goes to the pivoting section that actually hits the stop and activates the EOS. Reason being I can't see how this can be put on incorrectly.
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Sorry guys but can't seem to follow. Are we talking the only spring I can see that attaches near the yellow capicitor and goes to the pivoting section that actually hits the stop and activates the EOS. Reason being I can't see how this can be put on incorrectly.
It might have been removed...
Is a washer the size of a 20 cent piece will be either mounted inbetween the flipper coil and coil stop or the flipper coil and the other bracket.
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What spring, I haven't put it on the wrong way......I haven't f**king well put it on.....Man am I a dickhead.
Thanks very much Marty and Nino for being very patient. Put the spring on and the rod aligns correctly, the screws align correctly and then proceeded to have a leisurely 400K game on the mutha. The flippers work better than I can ever remember. Thanks heaps again.
BTW I forgot the spring on the other flipper but it must have been more forgiving as it worked great. Mind you I did install the spring on that one as well
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No probs! I only knew cause I put it in the wrong way the first set I did! Will never do that again!!!
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I think we are unfortunately talking about different springs Marty. The ones I've installed appear in the manual. The bad news is the fuse began to blow again after the initial game and a subsequent power on (3 flips and bang). Blew another fuses pretty much immediately hoping it was just a fluke. I'm thinking EOS as I re-read the tips on this thread and noticed the coil a little warmer than the other one. I'm unsure how to adjust the EOS as visually it looks fine. Maybe I need feeler gauges or something??
Will keep trying and hope to get there in the end. BTW the flipper performs great until it dies.
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Just a simple thought...
it is a slo blo fuse and not fast blow?
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I believe so that its a slow blow but will confirm if it isn't. I did notice the first time it blew it had a 3 amp and thinking of maybe replacing with a 3 amp instead of the 2.5's currently being used. Dunno if this is a wise move??
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I believe so that its a slow blow but will confirm if it isn't. I did notice the first time it blew it had a 3 amp and thinking of maybe replacing with a 3 amp instead of the 2.5's currently being used. Dunno if this is a wise move??
I would use the rated fuse - a 2.5 Amp SB. Fuses are in circuit to protect components, and it is the weakest link in the chain. If there is a problem, you want the fuse to blow !
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I raised the question about the SB fuse because i got sold 2.5A fuses that are SUPPOSED to be SB.
They look like fast blow, but have a "T" for "time lag" on them. Mr electronics wizzkid assured me that they were slo blo due to the T thats on them. Thats how they are made now he says.
Taking his word for it, i put them in my machine and lo and behold, they blow after a short amount of time.
So i source SB fuses that LOOK like SB fuses with the winding inside them, and i havent replaced it since.
Same bloke sold me a 6.2v zener instead of an 8.2 zener - its 1/2hr drive away. Wasnt too happy i can tell you
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Sorry to hear of the incident. Mine are SB as I bought it from a trusted pinball parts supplier and I know he wouldn't supply me crap.
Although if he recommended a hair dresser, that's a different story. That one's for you Greg LOL
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Sorry to hear of the incident. Mine are SB as I bought it from a trusted pinball parts supplier and I know he wouldn't supply me crap.
Although if he recommended a hair dresser, that's a different story. That one's for you Greg LOL
%.%
classic...
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Glad you liked that one Nino, but I reckon I'm gonna pay for it big time. Remember I need more fuses!!!
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Glad you liked that one Nino, but I reckon I'm gonna pay for it big time. Remember I need more fuses!!!
Better to replace a Fuse than a coil or a driver board.... *%*
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Sorry to hear of the incident. Mine are SB as I bought it from a trusted pinball parts supplier and I know he wouldn't supply me crap.
Although if he recommended a hair dresser, that's a different story. That one's for you Greg LOL
bugger off "God" I paid nearly 10.00 for that hair cut %.%
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Sorry to hear of the incident. Mine are SB as I bought it from a trusted pinball parts supplier and I know he wouldn't supply me crap.
Although if he recommended a hair dresser, that's a different story. That one's for you Greg LOL
bugger off "God" I paid nearly 10.00 for that hair cut %.%
Take it back for a warranty claim...
Was it done by a professionally trained "hair technician" ??
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Sorry to hear of the incident. Mine are SB as I bought it from a trusted pinball parts supplier and I know he wouldn't supply me crap.
Although if he recommended a hair dresser, that's a different story. That one's for you Greg LOL
bugger off "God" I paid nearly 10.00 for that hair cut %.%
you got ripped
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ok guys now let up on Greg, you know he's sensitive about the hair, and beside the point, he might start having a go about my tips!!!
BTW I think he said it was done by a trained tech, I think his name was Owen but I can't remember the salon's name. He showed me the curling wand used....I dunno but it looked more like a soldering iron to me, but then I'm no hairdresser. Go figure!!!
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:lol :lol :lol
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Back to the flipper issue...I pulled mine apart (T2) for you tonite and took a couple more happy snaps. The spring I was talking about initially are not installed on mine either (are on D.E LAH)..so that is most likely not your issue.
The funny thing is in the process of pulling mine apart and back together, I re-created your problem. THe flipper was quite stiff to move (by hand) and not flowing freely. I suspect if this is the case your coil is getting very hot cause of the load and blowing fuse (assuming your wiring is correct). IF the fuse is blowing whilst your holding the flipper in then I'm off track.
Anyway, I don't know how or what caused mine to bind up, however after putting in back in again (3rd time) everything was fine. I would suggest the following before we go on:
(1) take coil stop off (both hex nuts) and check you have coil sleeve in the correct way.
(2) when putting coil in, make sure the locating lug (not sure of its correct name) is seated in firm in its recess. I put mine in on an angle, so lug when in first, then placed coil stop on rear of coil 1st, then made sure it was square and flush before screwing in. Before you tighten it up, just keep checking the movement by hand as you go in, to make sure its all square..
This worked fine for me and flipper movement is very free.
See attached photos....In case I am off track anyone please correct me!
The one thing I did notice when it was binding up (look at middle photo), there was a bit of an angle between coil stop and back of coil (ie not sitting flat).
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are they meant to have a diode
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The other point worth mentioning - When you tighten the pawl on the flipper shaft, give the shaft a gently tap with a hammer - from underneath. This creates a small gap between the top of the bushing and the bottom of the plastic housing of the flipper..
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are they meant to have a diode
Yep, these actually have two...They are on the otherside of the lug and glued down as well to stop breakages I guess...
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Thanks Marty appreciate your effort. I agree with the stop being on an angle causing the flipper to bind. I had this initially. But after insert the large tapered spring that was on my initial flipper setup it helped seat the rod and coil stop nicely and enabled me to easily put in the coil stop screws (these were difficult prior to installing spring)
I've got to be careful here as I only have one fuse left (again) but I think holding the flipper on will cause it to blow. If I flip a fews times, I will see the fuse glow quickly and eventually weaken and blow on a flip. I felt the coil and it seemed warmer than the other but not too hot to touch. I can keep my hand on it for awhile.
The lug is seated good, sleeve is perfect and have put the large spring on the rod re: your last picture, that area. I think my wiring is ok as I connected one by one while old coil still on machine.
What do you think, back to issues with the EOS?
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Sounds like an EOS problem - especially if the fuse is blowing while holding the flipper button
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Have you tested the coil??
If its getting warm and blows fuse then its pulling too much current. So long as the EOS is opening at the end of the stroke, this shouldnt be the cause as this disables the higher voltage.
When the flipper is held in up position - the centre wire on the coil is a lower tap and allows you to hold the flipper without pulling higher current ( is the thinner wire on the coil)
Have you got the wires round the right way? And connected to EOS correctly?
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Will take photos tonight so you can advise whether there is a silly mistake made by me. Thanks
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Sorry for the delay but had problems getting on to this site since Friday.
Here are some pix and hope some ideas come of it. Thanks guys
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The coil is mounted the wrong way around. The lugs should be at the opposite end - NOT next to the coil stop. Reverse the coils and check back here.
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Is too!
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This can cause some magnetism on the coil stop over time, holding the flipper in the upright position - momentarily "sticking"..
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Thanks for the suggestion, put the coil as per martj's and fuse blew. Flipped 3-4 normal times and then held before fuse blew. Felt the coil and it didn't seem any warmer than the left coil after similar flips. BTW the coil on the LHS is postioned back to front as well but doesn't seem to cause a problem. I will fix it once I get the RH flipper going (eventually...I sound like Manuel from Fawlty Towers)
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Time to do very basic troubleshooting..
Swap the coils over - Left with right..
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Just quickly before I try this, I actually replaced the original RH coil with this yellow one thinking it was the coil that could have been the cause of the problem. So I think we can move to step 2. What do you think?
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Just a thought (probably a long shot). On the yellow cap, does your wires from it have any sheath on it? Just make sure nothing is exposed and touching bracket assembly?
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good to hear from you again Marty, I think it does but will confirm.
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According to the manual - T2 should have FL-11630 coils - Standard Williams coils. You have FL-11629, which are the strongest possible coils which draw more current. You could try 3A SB fuses, in fact 5A SB might solve the problem
See what Fuse is in F101 - It might be a higher rating...
BEFORE even thinking about a higher rated fuse... Try cleaning the EOS and gapping it so that is opens BEFORE hitting the coil stop..
I think the issue is the EOS...Clean and re gap.
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I looked at that EOS switch and it's not extremely clear but it looks like it really needs to be cleaned/replaced. There is definitely evidence of corrosion which I believe would cause more current to flow and blow the fuse. So I have to agree with strangeway. If thats not it start checking the low power solenoid circuit on the driver board. A number of things could be bad.
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You're right Chuck, it definitely looks bad. However it was brand new when the rebuild was done. I actually have cleaned it prior to coming on the site now and have also adjusted it to enable a larger gap when the flipper is in the up position (still maintaining the closed pos when down). Any idea why it got this way so soon??
I have tested it with the LHS flipper fuse as I'm out of fuses and can't faulter it. Quietly I'm treating this as problem solved but until I get my fuses and give T2 a good serving I'll keep my mouth shut. I did several flips and held the flipper on for some time and no fuse blow.
If this is solved I've gotta give a big thanks to Nick and Marty who kept screaming at me about the EOS. Owen also said this would probably be the case (thanks)
Just had a one flipper game with the RHS flipper in the up for the entire game and no problems thus far.
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You're right Chuck, it definitely looks bad. However it was brand new when the rebuild was done. I actually have cleaned it prior to coming on the site now and have also adjusted it to enable a larger gap when the flipper is in the up position (still maintaining the closed pos when down). Any idea why it got this way so soon??
I have tested it with the LHS flipper fuse as I'm out of fuses and can't faulter it. Quietly I'm treating this as problem solved but until I get my fuses and give T2 a good serving I'll keep my mouth shut. I did several flips and held the flipper on for some time and no fuse blow.
If this is solved I've gotta give a big thanks to Nick and Marty who kept screaming at me about the EOS. Owen also said this would probably be the case (thanks)
Just had a one flipper game with the THS flipper in the up for the entire game and no problems thus far.
What was the value of the fuse F101 ? So you moved it to F102 and the game works fine ? I'll bet it was a higher rated fuse..
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Finally got my fuse fix for the week thanks to Greg. Put in a new 2.5A in the left flipper and all good. Checked the RHS fuse and it is a 2.5A as well. Figure it was an EOS adjustment that did the trick (Thnaks Nino and Marty).
But let have a laugh (again). Got the fuse in after about 2 weeks of playing with only one flipper. Hey a two flipper game, what a bonus! Get it in the skull and hit the target to get multi-ball. f**kin' plunger dies. Didn't even get to complete one ball. Luckily it was the coil sleeve that stuffed up. So I replace the sleeve with the old one from the flipper rebuild. Try again but the ball release is a little sluggish. Look at the other kicker and notice the coil sleeve is on the other side of the mounting bracket. reinstall and manually test to see all moves free before mounting....BOING amature falls out and where's the SPRING. Look in the mirror and see LOSER tatooed on my forehead.
After searching my whole room found the spring two pinnies down on the carpet. Put it back together and finally got 5 complete games on T2. Pinnies are worse than working on cars.
The trial and tribulations of owning a pinball let alone 4 now.
Please be prepared for more problems in the future. Thanks guys
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Please be prepared for more problems in the future. Thanks guys
I think that's why we are all here - to share knowledge and help others. We are blessed here with the best of the Aussie collectors/restorers and some super-knowledgeable guys from the US as well, and none of them are here except to be part of what here quickly become the premier Aussie Pinball forum.
Except me - I'm just here for the chicks. <.>
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I think that's why we are all here - to share knowledge and help others. We are blessed here with the best of the Aussie collectors/restorers and some super-knowledgeable guys from the US as well, and none of them are here except to be part of what here quickly become the premier Aussie Pinball forum.
Except me - I'm just here for the chicks. <.>
Chicks :D <.> #.# this place just gets better and better
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Please be prepared for more problems in the future. Thanks guys
I think that's why we are all here - to share knowledge and help others. We are blessed here with the best of the Aussie collectors/restorers and some super-knowledgeable guys from the US as well, and none of them are here except to be part of what here quickly become the premier Aussie Pinball forum.
Except me - I'm just here for the chicks. <.>
Well said, Nick...
Don't forget our own "home grown" pinball project - Coconut Island !!
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here here, patiently waiting for the next installment