The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => General Chat - Non Pinball/coin-opp Discussion => Topic started by: Retropin on July 28, 2013, 10:17:37 AM
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Anyone here have solar electricity??? If so id be interested in your thoughts on it.
We are looking to install a 5KW system consisting of 20 X 250W SERAPHIM panels... people who want to sell us this want to put a 5KW inverter with it. My thoughts are that the inverter should be around 30% higher in capacity than the system.... pretty sure its not good practice to run something at max capacity... seems the GROWATT system only has an output of 4.6KW anyway, so its actually under.
Weve had some pretty pushy salesman try and sign us up there and then.. very bad practice and gets my back up immediately.
System mentioned above is from True Value Solar.... Modern Solar were over double the price.
I guess my main concern is the inverter... someone here would have some knowledge on these possibly???
Thanks guys...
Gav
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We have a 6kw inverter running 30 panels which I think we're 190w each don't know much else I wasn't really listening. Havnt had to pay for power since and I'm sure you get more sun than we do gav
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I have a 5kW system at my place, had it for over 2 years, great system. Purchased from Energy Matters. It has a 5kW Sunnyboy Explorer inverter. Whisper quiet and so far haven't had any issue with it. Your panels/installation will never drive your inverter to maximum if properly installed. A 5kW inverter will handle 5kW when running at its maximum without any trouble. It is not like a regular electrical system where you have to over compensate to allow for stresses. The panels will actually generate less on a hot sunny day, than a cooler sunny spring day. Air temps have a big say in how efficient the panels operate.
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I also got a system through energy matters. 5Kw Aurora inverter, with REC panels, i ended up getting 2 extra panels, so total 'input' is around 5.3kW or so. I did this after reading plenty on whirlpool forums about boosting panel numbers a bit - some guys are putting 6kW into 5kW inverters - and these are guys who are sparkies that install and design a lot of systems, so i'm assuming they know a lot more than me!
Very happy with it, haven't had an electricity bill since installation and have a few hundred credit. I estimated the system would pay for itself in 4 years, and it seems to be on track. The biggest thing i think is making sure your panel orientation is correct. Our neighbours got some poor advice (isntallers wanted the easy option), and they have the exact same system as us and produce 30% less power due to western rather than northern facing panels. I also et up and clean them every month or two with a hose to keep the dust down during dry weather.
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Thanks for the replies fellas.. solar is definitely the way to go right now,. We have a further 21% increase coming in QLD which would take our quarterly bill up to the $750 mark which is just ridiculous. I can get a 5KW system ( each KW should produce around 4 -5KWh) on a north facing roof for around $800 a quarter interest free over 24 months and that's not taking in the 18c rebate.
Glad to hear no one has had any problems with the systems. Each time I talk to a solar company they start out by telling what I should steer clear of.. this panel.. that inverter... this company etc... all very negative selling rather than positive. My thoughts have always been that if you have to make yourself look good by bagging someone elses then your product just doesn't hold up.
A bit more research on my part and it seems that the Aurora inverter is very well recommended.. if I can get my Chinese Growatt swapped for a Chinese Aurora then ill feel much better.
Thanks guys.. much appreciated! ^^^
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I got a 3kw system through True Value Solar, best value at the time.
Performs well, been generating credit, probably not this quarter though as there has been many overcast days.
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Hi Gav, Check out this link http://aussiepinball.com/index.php?topic=10423.0 I started this back a while ago.
Regards Keith
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Hi Gav, Check out this link http://aussiepinball.com/index.php?topic=10423.0 I started this back a while ago.
Regards Keith
Thanks mate.. seems you got in when it was the 40c.. its now 8c from Energex and a further 10C from Origin making 18c... doesn't matter to me, im not interested in making money just neutralising the largest bill we have.
All residential is now capped at 5KW so Daniel you did well to get a 6KW.. they are trying to stop people earning passive income from solar.. they really cocked it up with the high feedback tariffs... the 21% increase in QLD is to make up the shortfall by handing out 40c+ feedbacks.. crazy stuff and demonstrates just how incompetent our governments are
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You should go for a inverter that is larger by a few panels than what you are installing. A equal match inverter with panels will cope but it will have a shorter life as it is working that little bit harder.
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Check the history of whoever you buy from. There have been a lot of companys go since the rebates were reduced. Check if the manufacturer or retailer take responsibility for any warranty issues.
Do you have a smart meter? I had massive grief with the electricty companys after the install. I had a retail power supplier who had to contact the distributor to get my meter changed and then configured. I had to get actively involved as the retailer stuffed up the works order to the distributor three times. If I hadn't got involved the distributor admitted they wouldn't have told me there was an issue. The only bad press I have heard about solar is actually getting the power companies to hook the thing up as neither the retailer nor distributor benefit.
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what Rads said happens quite a bit as there are only a dozen meter qualified guys to change these smart meters in, so there can be some delays and have to make sure the provider has booked you in
also once you get your panels and smart meter you can see where the power is going - surprising how much goes into the hot water so I did some research and got the Apricus Hot Water System with a SS steel water tank, no noise and hot water - after solar panels I am saving an additional $100 a quarter on hot water, and I think element hot water systems phase out at the end of this year.
http://www.apricus.com.au/products/introduction?gclid=CIKE9d6c07gCFWZZpgodc1gATg
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Weve got gas hot water in the new house.. at the old one we had a huge hot water tank that I knew was just chewing the juice and couldn't wait to be rid of it... smart meters... we don't have the "smart" meters here in QLD, we do have the upgraded digital ones but they are not the so called and oh so hated Smart type.
My whole distribution box needs replacing though.. its all timber and has fuses not earth trip switches installed
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you can get some trip switches to fit into the old ceramic fuse holders.
also just note with the panel in the fuse box if it is dark in colour to almost brown or black - guaranteed to have an asbestos component in it. Fibro in your eaves and bathroom panels (pre 90's) has about 12% asbestos, panel that the fuses and meters attach to in the meter box has about 55% asbestos - dangerous stuff so be very careful and a note to anyone with a house pre 1990 almost guaranteed to have an asbestos panel and the dust in the bottom of the meter box box will be the drill dust from new meters installed over the years. Get a wet rag and wipe out and just use new rags to continue and bag it straight away - don't rinse it, and never blow out. I only know this because I setup an asbestos register and audit of the last company (many buildings and factories on a 32000m2 site) I worked for and did training to identify and remove - not that I did any removing.
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..... they really cocked it up with the high feedback tariffs... the 21% increase in QLD is to make up the shortfall by handing out 40c+ feedbacks.. crazy stuff and demonstrates just how incompetent our governments are
Every rebate/grant system introduced creates economic issues.
Until a year ago there were grants of $29,500.00 for building a first home in Victorian regional areas. So building prices skyrocket as demand increases, eating up the grants and more. Demand gets brought forward so that people who would have been buying/building over the next two or so years are able to get in with no deposit then....so now all the demand for the last year for first home builders has been non-existent. It will take another year or two for prices to reduce as competition for the remaining work increases.....in the meantime builders start to fail for lack of work.
I remember studying economics as part of my first degree (I was crap at it!) but these sort of things did stick in my mind, how grants and bonuses have short term benefits but always create longer term issues once they stop.
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Well there are certainly some good deals to be had right now. Im playing one company off with another... best deal I have so far is $5786 all inclusive with an Eversolar ( owned by SMA) 5KW inverter... have another company coming tomorrow night who reckon they could beat that price with an SMA inverter... just to add, deal is interest free over 24 months.
Sure as hell beats Modern Solar who wanted $14K.. Ha! - I ended up having an argument with the salesman.. not good..LOL
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good if you can get a good deal but like they say if it "sounds too good to be true" applies to solar, check what panels they are using and what % of efficiency they loose over each year, and also the contract as some will allow for a certain loss in effectiveness each year - BP solar panels are up there and many look like them but after 5 years can only generate 70 of what they were sold to generate.
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good if you can get a good deal but like they say if it "sounds too good to be true" applies to solar, check what panels they are using and what % of efficiency they loose over each year, and also the contract as some will allow for a certain loss in effectiveness each year - BP solar panels are up there and many look like them but after 5 years can only generate 70 of what they were sold to generate.
Ive done quite a bit of research.. the Modern Solar panels ( black XXXX) guarantee a loss of 2% over 25 years.. the ones im looking at are 20% over 25 years which seems to be pretty much the standard. On a hot day expect further losses of 2% for every degree over 25c, so at about 40c in summer my capacity to generate is reduced by up to 30% peak of the day.
The Modern Solar panels do generate more power but at twice the price of anything else it takes almost twice as long to break even.
I should be able to generate around 25KWh a day with the system.. we currently use 20KWh.
Not interested in paying an exorbitant amount to gain some passive income.. its now false economics. With the deal im looking at my quarterly expenditure will remain relatively the same but in 24 months ill be glad to not get any bills for electricity at all or at least make them so small they are laughable...IF I get some rebate then its a cherry on the cake. But with this deal and the 25 year warranty im hard pushed to fault it... my only concern is the inverter and they are coming down in price constantly, so in 5 years when full warranty has run out itll cost bugger all to replace.
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good if you can get a good deal but like they say if it "sounds too good to be true" applies to solar, check what panels they are using and what % of efficiency they loose over each year, and also the contract as some will allow for a certain loss in effectiveness each year - BP solar panels are up there and many look like them but after 5 years can only generate 70 of what they were sold to generate.
Ive done quite a bit of research.. the Modern Solar panels ( black XXXX) guarantee a loss of 2% over 25 years.. the ones im looking at are 20% over 25 years which seems to be pretty much the standard. On a hot day expect further losses of 2% for every degree over 25c, so at about 40c in summer my capacity to generate is reduced by up to 30% peak of the day.
The Modern Solar panels do generate more power but at twice the price of anything else it takes almost twice as long to break even.
I should be able to generate around 25KWh a day with the system.. we currently use 20KWh.
Not interested in paying an exorbitant amount to gain some passive income.. its now false economics. With the deal im looking at my quarterly expenditure will remain relatively the same but in 24 months ill be glad to not get any bills for electricity at all or at least make them so small they are laughable...IF I get some rebate then its a cherry on the cake. But with this deal and the 25 year warranty im hard pushed to fault it... my only concern is the inverter and they are coming down in price constantly, so in 5 years when full warranty has run out itll cost bugger all to replace.
^^^ good on you, at least you know what you are after and done the maths
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Tell the truth, im enjoying the argy bargy with all these guys... get a good deal with one company and then show it to another... they are so desperate for your business that they will upgrade and knock a few hundred off... take this and show to original company, suddenly you get the upgrade and a further amount off etc etc etc.. im now over $1000 below what I thought was already a bloody good deal with a better inverter and im running with one of the larger companies.
I have one more card to play tomorrow night to try and squeeze a tiny more out of this, but at $5786 inc GST im pretty much sold already ^^^
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..... they really cocked it up with the high feedback tariffs... the 21% increase in QLD is to make up the shortfall by handing out 40c+ feedbacks.. crazy stuff and demonstrates just how incompetent our governments are
Every rebate/grant system introduced creates economic issues.
Until a year ago there were grants of $29,500.00 for building a first home in Victorian regional areas. So building prices skyrocket as demand increases, eating up the grants and more. Demand gets brought forward so that people who would have been buying/building over the next two or so years are able to get in with no deposit then....so now all the demand for the last year for first home builders has been non-existent. It will take another year or two for prices to reduce as competition for the remaining work increases.....in the meantime builders start to fail for lack of work.
I remember studying economics as part of my first degree (I was crap at it!) but these sort of things did stick in my mind, how grants and bonuses have short term benefits but always create longer term issues once they stop.
I failed economics once nearly cost me my degree. J curves G spots I thought they were all the same !@#
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Hmm .. if we can get a 5KW system for around 6K then it will be worth doing .
Interested to hear how it pans out for you Gav *%*
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..... they really cocked it up with the high feedback tariffs... the 21% increase in QLD is to make up the shortfall by handing out 40c+ feedbacks.. crazy stuff and demonstrates just how incompetent our governments are
Every rebate/grant system introduced creates economic issues.
Until a year ago there were grants of $29,500.00 for building a first home in Victorian regional areas. So building prices skyrocket as demand increases, eating up the grants and more. Demand gets brought forward so that people who would have been buying/building over the next two or so years are able to get in with no deposit then....so now all the demand for the last year for first home builders has been non-existent. It will take another year or two for prices to reduce as competition for the remaining work increases.....in the meantime builders start to fail for lack of work.
I remember studying economics as part of my first degree (I was crap at it!) but these sort of things did stick in my mind, how grants and bonuses have short term benefits but always create longer term issues once they stop.
I failed economics once nearly cost me my degree. J curves G spots I thought they were all the same !@#
Ah, good to know I'm not the only one!! Might have to start an "economics nearly did me in club" must be more of us out there.......
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I'm assuming most are aware of below but its probably worth mentioning.
Just because you generate say 25kw in a day does not mean your power bill will be neutral even if you use only 20kw a day. It all depends on the distribution of usage through the day. If you use the bulk of power at night then the gain is going to be less whereas of you use most of your power when the system is at its peak, your bill will be less. Of course this all depends on what you are paid for the power you generate. If you are paid 44c then you are better using less during the day (and be paid 44c for generated) and more at night (and paying 28c for it).
If you are being paid under 28c then you are better using generated power during the day (when it is effectively free) and minimise use at night.
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I'm assuming most are aware of below but its probably worth mentioning.
Just because you generate say 25kw in a day does not mean your power bill will be neutral even if you use only 20kw a day. It all depends on the distribution of usage through the day. If you use the bulk of power at night then the gain is going to be less whereas of you use most of your power when the system is at its peak, your bill will be less. Of course this all depends on what you are paid for the power you generate. If you are paid 44c then you are better using less during the day (and be paid 44c for generated) and more at night (and paying 28c for it).
If you are being paid under 28c then you are better using generated power during the day (when it is effectively free) and minimise use at night.
*%* people forget this, and this is the reason solar is no longer viable to install now in Victoria as the tariffs they pay you for electricity produced is hardly anything on new system installations
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*%* people forget this, and this is the reason solar is no longer viable to install now in Victoria as the tariffs they pay you for electricity produced is hardly anything on new system installations
I, for one , am aware of that which is why we haven't had a system installed because I procrastinated when the NSW rebate was still worth something .
The flip side is now the systems are a lot cheaper, our elec bill is double what it used to be (now 2K per year) , so even if we forked out 6K for a system and only halved our bill we would still break even in 6 years
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We get 18c now in QLD.. I don't really care how much I get back.. I just need to knock the large quarterly down a hefty amount.
Electricity prices are spiralling out of control, each increase I yell myself will be the last as its just not sustainable, but then comes another and then another and there WILL be more within the next 2 years. By then though, I should be pretty much self sufficient.
Panel and inverter prices are plummeting.. its getting cheaper to do by the week.
I now have 2 deals to consider.. $5786 with 25 yr guarantee on panels and Chinese made SMA owned inverter with True Value Solar... OR.... from another company , Solar Consultants, 30 year panels with guaranteed 80% performance efficiency at 30 years, chinese inverter for a staggering $4990 all inclusive.. if I want SMA or AURORA inverter its $5990 inclusive and that's financed interest free over 36 months!
The last pricing is only to beat the opposition price and get another job out there.
Its a damn good price for a 5KW system.. my bills are around $2800 a year
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Love solar, we have been running a small system for a couple of years now and it is brilliant.
It halves what was our pre solar monthly electricity bill easily and the money we save we put towards family holidays.
Only regret was we didn't buy a system that could be upgraded but at the end of the day we are still happy.
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..... they really cocked it up with the high feedback tariffs... the 21% increase in QLD is to make up the shortfall by handing out 40c+ feedbacks.. crazy stuff and demonstrates just how incompetent our governments are
Every rebate/grant system introduced creates economic issues.
Until a year ago there were grants of $29,500.00 for building a first home in Victorian regional areas. So building prices skyrocket as demand increases, eating up the grants and more. Demand gets brought forward so that people who would have been buying/building over the next two or so years are able to get in with no deposit then....so now all the demand for the last year for first home builders has been non-existent. It will take another year or two for prices to reduce as competition for the remaining work increases.....in the meantime builders start to fail for lack of work.
I remember studying economics as part of my first degree (I was crap at it!) but these sort of things did stick in my mind, how grants and bonuses have short term benefits but always create longer term issues once they stop.
I failed economics once nearly cost me my degree. J curves G spots I thought they were all the same !@#
Ah, good to know I'm not the only one!! Might have to start an "economics nearly did me in club" must be more of us out there.......
Don't need any qualifications in economics to realise that if you buy something at 44c and then sell at 28c you are going to come unstuck very fast.... we can see it but for some reason politicians cant, so much so that the deal is locked in for a staggering 15 years
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Ok.. signed up today with True Value Solar... 5KW system with SERAPHIM panels guaranteed 80% performance at 25 years... 90% at 10 years.... EVERSHINE ( owned by SMA) inverter all for $5786 inc GST and installation financed over 24 months interest free.
ALMOST went with a more local company who offered a deal with an SMA inverter for $5990 but installation warranty was only for 12 months whereas we got 10 years with True Value.
I found this odd as the local company were very quick to bag out True Value stating that they used sub contractors and not fully trained personnel like themselves ... well the better warranty won the day, sub contract or not... its important to stand by your product and workmanship and a small warranty does not display full confidence.
True Value also threw in a Blue tooth tablet that tells you the performance of the panels at any given time.
Very happy with the deal... 2 more years of heavy quarterly bills and then a dramatic reduction in costs... got to be happy with that!
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well done Gav, I think it is a great move
how panels for your system?
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well done Gav, I think it is a great move
how panels for your system?
20 X 250W panels
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Gave
Let me know how it goes I would be interested in putting a system in myself
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Ok.. signed up today with True Value Solar... 5KW system with SERAPHIM panels guaranteed 80% performance at 25 years... 90% at 10 years.... EVERSHINE ( owned by SMA) inverter all for $5786 inc GST and installation financed over 24 months interest free.
ALMOST went with a more local company who offered a deal with an SMA inverter for $5990 but installation warranty was only for 12 months whereas we got 10 years with True Value.
I found this odd as the local company were very quick to bag out True Value stating that they used sub contractors and not fully trained personnel like themselves ... well the better warranty won the day, sub contract or not... its important to stand by your product and workmanship and a small warranty does not display full confidence.
True Value also threw in a Blue tooth tablet that tells you the performance of the panels at any given time.
Very happy with the deal... 2 more years of heavy quarterly bills and then a dramatic reduction in costs... got to be happy with that!
Sounds like a great deal Gav ^^^
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Well they rocked up at 6.30am this morning and were gone by 12.30pm... 20 off 250W solar panels on the roof with a 5KW inverter all now installed.
Apparently, im now to wait for Energex to come round ( 2 - 3 weeks) so the system can be switched on... Electrician showed me how to do this in case I need to switch it on at some point AFTER Energex have been.....
Pool pump is running... no system is not switched on... no it is not currently generating 3.5KW of power... no my meter is not going backwards right now...
^^^ ^^^ #@# #@# #@#
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Some words of advice from here. Don't hold your breath waiting for Energex to arrive and swap over your meter. Hopefully it is in the time frame they mentioned, but out of the 8 in our group that got solar installed, not one of us had the energy supply company do anything on time or when promised.
Write down your meter reading every day or every second day, even better take a photo. You might need it to prove what your reading was when the old meter was removed and your new one installed. I ran mine from the day it was installed, wound the meter back a long way before it was changed out, you don't get any credit for it as such, just a lower supply bill. Don't know if your energy supply and energy provider are the same company, hopefully they are as it should make it go much smoother. As the energy supply company (Energex) is responsible for telling your energy provider the final reading on the old meter, fingers crossed they do, otherwise your energy supply company will estimate your next bill, based on prior usage. Hence the reason you need proof of what your meter reading was as close to the day of change over as possible.
I know all this because I learnt the hard way. Hopefully you won't have any troubles. Nearly everyone I've spoken to that has had solar installed, has had hassles after the installation with the energy supply and energy provider not talking to each other. It can be a complete nightmare to sort out. Mine took about 3 months or more from memory.
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Quick update on this... We've been connected to the grid for just over a week now.. meter tells you what you've exported and imported.
Im still checking how much power we've produced each day and today was a cracker.. a whopping 29.9KWH.. previous to this 27KWH was the record.
We try to run most things during the day but obviously, you use more electricity at night due to lights etc.
So far we have imported 73KWH and exported 125KWH.. the 125KWH is the accumulated excess as we are self sufficient during the day..
Very very happy with it all.. may the sun shine!!!
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We recieved our last bill for a whole year since installing Solar with the credits from summer was almost enough to cover the while year. A huge $33 for power this year I can live with that
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What power company are you with. My power company has stiffed me big time. My bill went up by $400 with a 5kw system. I think they added the solar instead of taking it away. My neibour with the same system and power company has the same problem. next step Ombudsman.
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What power company are you with. My power company has stiffed me big time. My bill went up by $400 with a 5kw system. I think they added the solar instead of taking it away. My neibour with the same system and power company has the same problem. next step Ombudsman.
Did your usage stay the same or go up - looking at $$$ is not really correct as pricing per kWhr has changed significantly recently. If your usage has stayed the same, with the price increase the bill will be more.
We were getting around $40-$150 credit for our bills with solar, then with the price increase went to having to pay somewhere in that same range.
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What power company are you with. My power company has stiffed me big time. My bill went up by $400 with a 5kw system. I think they added the solar instead of taking it away. My neibour with the same system and power company has the same problem. next step Ombudsman.
What was your average daily use ( is on your bill) and what is your average daily electricity amount generated??
We use on average 21KWH per day and are generating average of around 25KWH... we still have to think smart though and use as much as we can during the day when we are producing as we buy electricity at 28c per KWH and the excess we sell we get 18c per KWH.
So its important to have a nice wide margin between what we have imported and what we have exported in order to attempt to reduce our bills to close to zero
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No I work shift, so most usage is in the day time. usage remains about the same. What did change was getting solar 3 weeks before changing power company's. I suspect they added the solar instead of subtracting.
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If you changed providers, then you feed in tariff may well have changed. I have no idea of Vic, but in Qld, i am currently locked in to 44c, but if i was to change (or even sell the house), then it would reduce to 8c.
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If you changed providers, then you feed in tariff may well have changed. I have no idea of Vic, but in Qld, i am currently locked in to 44c, but if i was to change (or even sell the house), then it would reduce to 8c.
Depends on your provider.. its 8c from Origin and a further 10c from Energex ( or the other way round).. we get 18c
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Yep, thats right - i should have specified that point. Up here in the north, we only have one option(Ergon)....i forget that others have choices!
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Well they rocked up at 6.30am this morning and were gone by 12.30pm... 20 off 250W solar panels on the roof with a 5KW inverter all now installed.
Apparently, im now to wait for Energex to come round ( 2 - 3 weeks) so the system can be switched on... Electrician showed me how to do this in case I need to switch it on at some point AFTER Energex have been.....
Pool pump is running... no system is not switched on... no it is not currently generating 3.5KW of power... no my meter is not going backwards right now...
^^^ ^^^ #@# #@# #@#
I am not sure solar electricity is worth or not. It is very expensive to use solar power and efficiency is very less.
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I am not sure solar electricity is worth or not. It is very expensive to use solar power and efficiency is very less.
I was on the fence about Solar for a long time and therefore missed out on both the 60c kw/h and 20c kw/h rebates in NSW.
Because electricity cost is continuing to increase we have now decided to bite the bullet and are puchasing a 3KW system (with 5KW inverter) from Nicholls Solar (12 x 250 watt Trina panels + 1 x JFY Suntree 5000 TL 3 phase Dual MPPT inverter ) .
10 year installation warranty and 10 year inverter warranty
This system should produce an average of 12KW/h per day or better. The trick will be to try and use as much of that each day as possible .
Expecting payback period to be 5 years (less if power prices continue to increase)
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I had a 5kw system installed about a month ago with a 3 phase 5kw inverter. The panels are producing around 33kw/h per day on clear sunny days and cloudy days produce at least 20kw/s so it is doing what we wanted.
I like the SMA 5000TL inverter and have it connected to my network via ethernet and just use the phone app to see what it is doing from time to time although that will wear off over time I guess.
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I'm curious, how much per kWh are you buying the power and how much are they buying it back of you for?
I am not sure solar electricity is worth or not. It is very expensive to use solar power and efficiency is very less.
I was on the fence about Solar for a long time and therefore missed out on both the 60c kw/h and 20c kw/h rebates in NSW.
Because electricity cost is continuing to increase we have now decided to bite the bullet and are puchasing a 3KW system (with 5KW inverter) from Nicholls Solar (12 x 250 watt Trina panels + 1 x JFY Suntree 5000 TL 3 phase Dual MPPT inverter ) .
10 year installation warranty and 10 year inverter warranty
This system should produce an average of 12KW/h per day or better. The trick will be to try and use as much of that each day as possible .
Expecting payback period to be 5 years (less if power prices continue to increase)
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I'm curious, how much per kWh are you buying the power and how much are they buying it back of you for?
Currently paying 24.66c per kw/h (I think its forecast to increase another 8% this year ?) and buyback is 8c per kw/h .
So its more about reducing our consumption during the daylight hours (to 0) than the buyback amount .
Breakeven will take a while but at least we will break even and then be in front .
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We pay 28c KWH and our buy back is 14c.
You have to be a bit savvy with solar and use what you can during the day as you only feedback your excess. Our first full solar bill came in last week and we have a bill of $57
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We pay $26.73 kw/h and feed in tariff is $0.14
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A couple of gripes I have with solar is that the panels require cleaning a couple of times each year. The other question mark is whether they will retain their efficiency over time. One thing is for sure, the technology will improve and become cheaper to buy over time.
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A couple of gripes I have with solar is that the panels require cleaning a couple of times each year. The other question mark is whether they will retain their efficiency over time. One thing is for sure, the technology will improve and become cheaper to buy over time.
Agreed .
Hard to know when the right time to jump in is, which is why we have taken so long to buy a system
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Well they rocked up at 6.30am this morning and were gone by 12.30pm... 20 off 250W solar panel (http://www.shinesolar.net) on the roof with a 5KW inverter all now installed.
Apparently, im now to wait for Energex to come round ( 2 - 3 weeks) so the system can be switched on... Electrician showed me how to do this in case I need to switch it on at some point AFTER Energex have been.....
Pool pump is running... no system is not switched on... no it is not currently generating 3.5KW of power... no my meter is not going backwards right now...
^^^ ^^^ #@# #@# #@#
I am not sure solar electricity is worth or not. It is very expensive to use solar power and efficiency is very less.
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Ho Hum, Solar....one of the best & worst things ever :-)
OK, so you save a bunch of $$$ by going solar, that's cool, and yes, you will need to clean them, but dont gripe about it as your getting FREE electricity, you gotta be prepared to do 'some' maintenance.
No panels will last forever, they do degrade, in fact "10 years" is somewhat generous for most brands, they die off in 5yrs in many cases, although adding additional panels can offer a pseudo-rejuvination.
New technologies are always evolving with Solar, but it will cost a small fortune for the next revision panels, you can grab those, but then you lose all your savings with your current system.
Beware of cheap deals on panels, theyre simply getting rid of their crap stock ready to re-import the next wave of (better?) panels.
It might seem attractive to remain connected on the grid and get paid for your unused power, but being on the grid means your system is ALWAYS under load speeding up the time it takes to die.
If you have a decent battery/charge system, you wont need sunny days everyday, in fact 1 sunny day of charging can power your house for a WEEK without needing a recharge, but if youre connected on the grid it'll be gone overnight.
Rememebr, you're "unused power" is stored in the batteries and will be there the next day to ofer you FREE electricity, why lose it on the grid, and get paid measly few $$ for it?
Time to turn off the greed switch and just be happy to get FREE power.....get off the grid and they cant touch you.
Additionally, there's a growing trend to now not use invertors for 240V systems, a new growth of low voltage 12-24v DC systems are excelling in performance and safe enough for home-users to D.I.Y installs, no electrical license required.
Also to note, the rise & rise of power (for non-solar people) is based on the great losses the power companies are suffering with everyone moving onto solar, and even worse when they also pay people for their unused energy.
Be aware that you 'non solar' people are basically paying the bills of people no longer on the grid...the electricity companies dont wanna lose, so YOU pay for it.
Hopefully everyone will get on solar ASAP, and the elctrical company can just close it's doors, nobody wil need it...they had it too good for too long. ;-)
Additionally, i'd been involved with a private installation a few years back in rural vic (no power lines).
We developed a system using double the typical range of panels, twin invertors for redundancy and 4 battery banks for energy storage.
1 sunny day can run that building for almost 1 month without a glitch...
I'm now working on some projects on the side so that we can aim at providing an energy system that only needs sunny days a few times per YEAR to keep things boosted, although there's additioanl contraptions added to the mix.
FREE energy (or very close to it) is the ultimate way!
MM
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Ho Hum, Solar....one of the best & worst things ever :-)
Well said! *%* Couldn't agree more! They are causing some serious overvoltage issues in south east Queensland. Not saying they are totally a bad thing, I have a system on my roof and have installed a few but maybe a not so well thought out power generation system. Just remember your inverter will most likely fail no matter what brand it is. I have replaced many inverters of all brands. There is no rebate for repairing or replacing it once it is out of warranty. It can be a big shock to the customer when they find a new inverter "can" cost almost as much as the whole system originally cost. Just something to consider. Also remember the panels produce power anytime the sun is out even if your system is turned off so regular inspections of the panels and roof top isolator will greatly reduce the risk of fire.
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Yes but it doesn't matter..
I was paying for the shortfall in power companies revenue by NOT having solar.. each rise in price pushes more of us to it. Power companies are paid bonuses for the amount of line work they do.. so they continually do more line work to continually increase profits.. we have shareholders to think of and we MUST increase profits every year.
I can buy one of my panels for $350.
I can buy my inverter for $1200.
I have unconditional 5 year warranty on the inverter.
20 years on the panels with a degradation of 20% efficiency over 10 years expected.. anything over that and they are replaced.
20 years on installation
My bills would now be well over $700 a quarter.
My repayments over 2 years are $780 a quarter.
My bill is $57 and yes weve had the aircon on.
So, I see a slight increase in my bill for 2 years max... but that's not really the case as electricity prices are going up again. My guess is by end of 2 years im even.
After that, I have hardly any bills at all... cant wait for that one!
If you cannot keep control of your overheads you go broke - rule#1 of any business and running a family IS a business.
I don't care if it throws spikes down the line.. that's not my issue.. Power company never cared about anyone who went broke cos their bill shot up.. F**k em I say.. its each man for himself now and I intend to cover my lot as best I can.
I don't care if its "green" or not.. couldn't give a stuff.. its all bollox anyway. We get penalised for using electricity and pushed to use less through price increases.. but its not us causing the problems.. its the power companies refusing to move beyond burning fossil fuels.. we sell coal to China to burn for electricity at a fraction we sell it to ourselves... its all a con...LED speed signs - those things chew the juice!.. but hey, its LED so it costs nothing to run right? Bollox - theres tons of the bloody things in there.. add the inefficiency of the SMPS and it all adds up.. pretty sure the old reflective ones were free to run?
Its one big fat con.. get in now on solar I say while you can and then in 20 years time when we all have it, we will be paying the same bills for the same amount because " line maintenance" and " the grid" will cost.. just like renting the line for your telephone...one...big...fat...con.
JP Morgan.. " if I cant put a meter on it - it cannot happen"
Ok.. rant over... now breathe and allow blood to come from boiling to normal...
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All good points Retropin to consider to put a system in as long as the manufacture and installation company are around in 20 years to honour the warranties. You are right though, if you've done your research and think you can save or make money in the end, I agree go for it!
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.. we have shareholders to think of and we MUST increase profits every year.
Yep, that's EXACTLY the problem for all companies, bloody shareholders!!!
Any company with shareholders is on the eve of it's closure, we dont have the same economic climate that we've had 20+ years ago when shareholding "WAS" a good idea and investment.
NO company today can offer fantastic economic growth, there's no room to spread, not enough money to go around anymore, and HAVING to provide for shareholders worsens the expansion of any company.
It's about time companies started offloading all their shareholders and remain strong and having a future....afterall, it's shareholders that kill companies and cause everyone to lose our jobs, it's that simple.
Shareholders alone ARE the end of the world.
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.. we have shareholders to think of and we MUST increase profits every year.
Yep, that's EXACTLY the problem for all companies, bloody shareholders!!!
Any company with shareholders is on the eve of it's closure, we dont have the same economic climate that we've had 20+ years ago when shareholding "WAS" a good idea and investment.
NO company today can offer fantastic economic growth, there's no room to spread, not enough money to go around anymore, and HAVING to provide for shareholders worsens the expansion of any company.
It's about time companies started offloading all their shareholders and remain strong and having a future....afterall, it's shareholders that kill companies and cause everyone to lose our jobs, it's that simple.
Shareholders alone ARE the end of the world.
Im hearing you and have always been a firm believer that anything that is fundamental to our way of life should be government controlled...NOT... privately owned to make a profit.
Electricity.. water... health... all should be in the hands of....wait for it.... US!! Yep radical as it may sound but we did once own them all.. then got fed a few sheckles to sell them off to a private conglomerate who will rape them for all they are worth only to sell them back again when exponential growth plateaus out. Then we will invest and build them to 21st or 22nd century technology to sell them to the very same groups again.
They've been doing it since Oliver Cromwell and will continue while we allow it
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.. we have shareholders to think of and we MUST increase profits every year.
Yep, that's EXACTLY the problem for all companies, bloody shareholders!!!
Any company with shareholders is on the eve of it's closure, we dont have the same economic climate that we've had 20+ years ago when shareholding "WAS" a good idea and investment.
NO company today can offer fantastic economic growth, there's no room to spread, not enough money to go around anymore, and HAVING to provide for shareholders worsens the expansion of any company.
It's about time companies started offloading all their shareholders and remain strong and having a future....afterall, it's shareholders that kill companies and cause everyone to lose our jobs, it's that simple.
Shareholders alone ARE the end of the world.
Im hearing you and have always been a firm believer that anything that is fundamental to our way of life should be government controlled...NOT... privately owned to make a profit.
Electricity.. water... health... all should be in the hands of....wait for it.... US!! Yep radical as it may sound but we did once own them all.. then got fed a few sheckles to sell them off to a private conglomerate who will rape them for all they are worth only to sell them back again when exponential growth plateaus out. Then we will invest and build them to 21st or 22nd century technology to sell them to the very same groups again.
They've been doing it since Oliver Cromwell and will continue while we allow it
Sadly a community based "owned by us" system will never happen as the govt. wouldnt make any money, although as compensation they'd raise our taxes to 90% of our pay :-(
I can't wait to win the lotto and start my own bank/supermarket/utilities services for the people, not for the fatcats up top....why do billionaires still need MORE money anyway.....a race to be #1 in social circles?
I'd be happy with 1 billlion, why would i ever need to keep earning more....oh yeh, to keep those damn shareholders happy......gotta get rid of those shareholders!!
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I can honestly say that I consider myself lucky enough to have been brought up in London in the 70's..... all my school pencils, books etc were provided for me as was milk at break time. Health system was free - completely.. free dental, free medical. Only Harley st had private doctors. Buses, tubes, trains all ran.. all owned by " the people", you were expected to contribute to the cost of the ride.. NOT pay full amount plus a profit. Council houses were in abundance.. I grew up in one. Once a year, council would come round and repaint it for us.. we had a garden front and back and lived on an estate... playgrounds were provided.. after school activities like sport were provided.. musical instruments to learn - all provided.
It was the heyday of government owned institutions... but... it didn't stop people moaning about the crappy health system.. crappy public transport ( a man used to issue you with a ticket!).. didn't stop the unions demanding more and more and people going on strike because they wanted more and more.
So in the early 80's we had Thatcher and ALL was sold off.. I mean - ALL.. trains, buses, tubes, houses, parks, health, dental.. greed ruled and greed conquered.
Now the pittance each person earned by buying shares and then selling is gone.. the infrastructure is owned off shore and profits are imperative.. people pay and pay again.
UK manufacturing base is now a thing of the past.. it got sold off.. the city was the way to go and so the top 5% saw massive amounts to be earned as they did all round the world, then made it all implode and again... the people pay. Now the UK is in recession ( as are we but a denial recession) and has no way to dig itself out other than fleece its own people.
Government owned institutions on reflection were great... unfortunately, people have to have hindsight to realise it.
.. Sorry - I digress... back to solar...
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Just had a letter from my provider.... QLD Gov is scrapping the solar subsidy as of June 30 of 8C per KWH which takes my contribution payments down to a paultry 6C per KWH.. I then buy it back at 28C per KWH!!!
Well that truly F**ked that.
So tell me.. how do I get a battery system so I can go off grid???
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Look for deep cycle cells. They are not cheap at around $400 each but they last many years and if you are lucky, sometimes companies like Telstra used to sell them cheap after 5 years use. You need to get a whole bank of them for typical home use so initial outlay is a pain.
That sucks with the gov. reducing subsidy. They suck you in to use solar, lpg or natural gas and then hike the prices or reduce subsidy.
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Look for deep cycle cells. They are not cheap at around $400 each but they last many years and if you are lucky, sometimes companies like Telstra used to sell them cheap after 5 years use. You need to get a whole bank of them for typical home use so initial outlay is a pain.
That sucks with the gov. reducing subsidy. They suck you in to use solar, lpg or natural gas and then hike the prices or reduce subsidy.
Thanks mate.. bet im not allowed to go off grid!
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a mate of mine just got a electrician in and changed the feed into a bank of batteries setup in a little shed and I think a inverter ?? which set him back about $3.5 - 4k and just had the power disconnected. It is things like air con and cooking elements that eat the juice but if you have / get gas then that won't be a problem
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Agreed.. heating and cooling are the big power suckers. The oven is by far the biggest juice sucker followed by the fridge and freezer. I don't turn the air con on even though we have it. Makes me laugh when I see all the ads telling you to turn to LED lighting to save energy when you haven't been able to buy a standard incandescent for quite a few years now.. CCFL @20W will produce more light than a 20W LED. Electricity prices in QLD are about to go up a further 13%.. this is on top of the 21% of last year and the rise the year before that etc. For my shop, the cost of the line supply is now what my whole bill used to be when I moved into it some 8 years ago... the whole charade is spiralling out of control and im getting really pissed off with it!
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I am not sure I agree with CCFL putting out more lumens than LED, my house is 100% LED from downlights to the regular globe replacements, personally I prefer the output (look and instant 100%) to CCFL but either way the lumens IME are slightly higher per watt with LED and figures I can find seem to back that up...
| Incandescent Watts | CFL Watts | LED Watts | Lumens (Brightness) |
| 40 | 8 - 12 | 6 - 9 | 400 - 500 |
| 60 | 13 - 18 | 8 - 12.5 | 650 - 900 |
| 75 - 100 | 18 - 22 | 13+ | 1100 - 1750 |
| 100 | 23 -30 | 16 - 20 | 1800+ |
| 150 | 30 - 55 | 25 - 28 | 2780 |
http://eartheasy.com/live_energyeff_lighting.htm
You should have seen the original lighting we had in the lounge when we moved in, they had these huge downlights, each one was one of those outdoor 200W flood lights.. Hilarious as lounge had 4 of them and no dimmer, so 800W, replaced with 6 x 9.5W LEDs on dimmers, plenty bright enough (before it was a joke) and drastic power saving...
As to solar we were lucky to get it in time for the higher rate so we make more during the day (when no one home) than we pay for at night, at 8c I don't know if I would have bothered though, takes much longer to pay it off..
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sa power is calculated over three tiers of rates.and you pay more in summer ie winter tariff/summer tariff.
winter
peak36kwh@$0.3150
next85kwh@$0.3179
next25kwh@$0.3500
summer
peak243kwh@$0.3205
next568kwh@$0.3519
next164kwh@$0.3844
then add gst
so qld power is a third cheaper.so i'm moving.
but then council rates up there really suck
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winter
peak36kwh@$0.3150
next85kwh@$0.3179
next25kwh@$0.3500
summer
peak243kwh@$0.3205
next568kwh@$0.3519
next164kwh@$0.3844
then add gst
so qld power is a third cheaper.so i'm moving.
but then council rates up there really suck
How over complicated...
Ours (vic), well for my supplier, are just two rates, peak and off-peak (off peak being weekends and after 11pm)..
Peak 33c and Off Peak 16c
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I am not sure I agree with CCFL putting out more lumens than LED, my house is 100% LED from downlights to the regular globe replacements, personally I prefer the output (look and instant 100%) to CCFL but either way the lumens IME are slightly higher per watt with LED and figures I can find seem to back that up...
| Incandescent Watts | CFL Watts | LED Watts | Lumens (Brightness) |
| 40 | 8 - 12 | 6 - 9 | 400 - 500 |
| 60 | 13 - 18 | 8 - 12.5 | 650 - 900 |
| 75 - 100 | 18 - 22 | 13+ | 1100 - 1750 |
| 100 | 23 -30 | 16 - 20 | 1800+ |
| 150 | 30 - 55 | 25 - 28 | 2780 |
http://eartheasy.com/live_energyeff_lighting.htm
You should have seen the original lighting we had in the lounge when we moved in, they had these huge downlights, each one was one of those outdoor 200W flood lights.. Hilarious as lounge had 4 of them and no dimmer, so 800W, replaced with 6 x 9.5W LEDs on dimmers, plenty bright enough (before it was a joke) and drastic power saving...
As to solar we were lucky to get it in time for the higher rate so we make more during the day (when no one home) than we pay for at night, at 8c I don't know if I would have bothered though, takes much longer to pay it off..
Yeh.. I wouldn't take the figures for LED too literally. Often they quote the LED power rating not the package consumption.. for instance a bulb consisting of 16 X 1.1W LEDs will in fact require 20W +/-10% of power.. its light output will be 1000 Lumens per metre.. a CCFL at 20W will only require a straight 20W and its light output is some 1540 Lumens per metre. But.. if someone has a vested interest in selling you expensive LED bulbs then they are not going to tell you that all CCFL is now tri phosphor and has a much greater light output than standard phosphor... it is also a fraction of the cost. Investment in LED is a misnomer as any marginal saving you may perceive is grossly out weighed by the inflated costs... it wont last 50,000 hrs.. or 20,000 or even 10,000... in fact its light will diminish as the phosphors die or individual LEDs drop out..
Heres a picture of a standard LED power supply ( SMPS).. you can see that it requires 0.95A @ 170V to produce 100W of 12V supply, so it requires 161W to produce 100W... not so efficient all of a sudden, and youll be interested to know that the current input has been removed from the labelling now... can you guess why?
LED is exactly what you want if your house supply is 12VDC.. but its not, its 240V AC and its the conversion that kills the deal..
(http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr243/retropin/LEDpowersupply_zps45091a43.jpg)
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you would know ^^^
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Just on the light bulb Gav have you seen the doco 'The Light bulb Conspiracy'. It's on YouTube and a great interesting piece. The light bulb was the first consumer product with planned obselence designed into it...
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Are there such things as perpetual motion devices such as electromagnetic generators which can produce free enegy at home? A while back, I saw an article where Australian scientists had a device which generated 25kW per day which is ample for an average household. These guys probably got shut up by the big power conpanies and the government.
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Just on the light bulb Gav have you seen the doco 'The Light bulb Conspiracy'. It's on YouTube and a great interesting piece. The light bulb was the first consumer product with planned obselence designed into it...
No mate.. haven't seen it but will go search for it..
Cheers!
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Are there such things as perpetual motion devices such as electromagnetic generators which can produce free enegy at home? A while back, I saw an article where Australian scientists had a device which generated 25kW per day which is ample for an average household. These guys probably got shut up by the big power conpanies and the government.
Ive seen quite a few of the "free" energy devices.. for some reason people I know keep sending them to me! LOL.
It was an IDEA by Tesla which quickly got crushed once his workshop with all his notes burnt down, since then, many have tried to do what he did and take it a step further. Im always dubious though as I see these machines that require an initial power input to start up and then they take a feed off the output and loop it back to the start and claim free energy of say 100W. What they don't tell you until you dig much further is that the 100W is not say 240V @ 0.4A or so which can be very handy... its more like 6000V @ 16mA which unless you are powering some neon tubing or zapping warts is pretty useless to you
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No such thing as free power in my book. Its simple physics. The best outcome can only be to find the most efficient ways to convert energy from on form to another.
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No such thing as free power in my book. Its simple physics. The best outcome can only be to find the most efficient ways to convert energy from on form to another.
Exactly, it defies science. There is always a loss of some sort.
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No such thing as free power in my book. Its simple physics. The best outcome can only be to find the most efficient ways to convert energy from on form to another.
Exactly, it defies science. There is always a loss of some sort.
When refering to free, I meant free from governments or corporate regulators. I know that everything carries a cost but if we can be self sufficient as much as possible, we would not be financing the greedy companies.
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When refering to free, I meant free from governments or corporate regulators.
Yes that would be good. *%*
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Just been onto the Gov site listed on the letter I received.. it states that the decrease in contribution payments are so that electricity prices don't have to rise again..WTF???!!!! Weve just been told of another 13% price rise!
.. so... ive come up with a plan. Obviously, the solar array im still paying for isn't going to pay for itself and my generated electricity is now being taken off me, distributed and then sold back at a hefty cost.
My thoughts are to have a split system house.. have the cooker ( soon the be gas anyway).. fridge, freezer and pool run off the grid but have my solar electricity fed to a bank of deep cycle batteries which will feed the TV, computers, fans, lights etc.
So im still effectively on the grid but my solar electricity that I pay the infrastructure for and have on my land actually becomes mine 100%.
Years back when I had solar water, I had a split system.. if it was cloudy for a few days and the water was cooling down too much I could flick the switch and heat from the grid.. hence where I get the idea from.
So long as I have an electrical contractor to ensure safety, I see no problems?
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Just been onto the Gov site listed on the letter I received.. it states that the decrease in contribution payments are so that electricity prices don't have to rise again..WTF???!!!! Weve just been told of another 13% price rise!
.. so... ive come up with a plan. Obviously, the solar array im still paying for isn't going to pay for itself and my generated electricity is now being taken off me, distributed and then sold back at a hefty cost.
My thoughts are to have a split system house.. have the cooker ( soon the be gas anyway).. fridge, freezer and pool run off the grid but have my solar electricity fed to a bank of deep cycle batteries which will feed the TV, computers, fans, lights etc.
So im still effectively on the grid but my solar electricity that I pay the infrastructure for and have on my land actually becomes mine 100%.
Years back when I had solar water, I had a split system.. if it was cloudy for a few days and the water was cooling down too much I could flick the switch and heat from the grid.. hence where I get the idea from.
So long as I have an electrical contractor to ensure safety, I see no problems?
I can see why you want to do this Gav but surely your Solar system is going to produce way in excess of your consumption if you reconnect it that way , so I don't really get it .
My thinking is that the ideal way is to try and use all of what your Solar system produces to minmise the pay back period .
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My thinking is that the ideal way is to try and use all of what your Solar system produces to minmise the pay back period .
+1
This is the best way to use solar when you are not receiving a good pay back on your sold power.
Installing batteries etc. would lead to an off grid system which requires a whole new licence. A straight out electrical contractor or on grid solar installer can not sign off on an off grid system. You need to find an off grid solar installer. Sounds stupid but that's my take on the rules.
Of course you could go to Jaycar, buy a solar panel to charge a car battery and then run low voltage cable direct to your LED lights. Who's to stop people do that. That's what higher electricity prices will do.
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I have always thought that schemes like these ("we will pay you MORE for power than we can make it for") were a complete con - seems like I was right - at least partly.
I would only ever have solar if it was off-grid and I could control and use the power generated. That way you learn to become far more frugal to sart with and when there is a power outage you are not as affected.
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Just been onto the Gov site listed on the letter I received.. it states that the decrease in contribution payments are so that electricity prices don't have to rise again..WTF???!!!! Weve just been told of another 13% price rise!
.. so... ive come up with a plan. Obviously, the solar array im still paying for isn't going to pay for itself and my generated electricity is now being taken off me, distributed and then sold back at a hefty cost.
My thoughts are to have a split system house.. have the cooker ( soon the be gas anyway).. fridge, freezer and pool run off the grid but have my solar electricity fed to a bank of deep cycle batteries which will feed the TV, computers, fans, lights etc.
So im still effectively on the grid but my solar electricity that I pay the infrastructure for and have on my land actually becomes mine 100%.
Years back when I had solar water, I had a split system.. if it was cloudy for a few days and the water was cooling down too much I could flick the switch and heat from the grid.. hence where I get the idea from.
So long as I have an electrical contractor to ensure safety, I see no problems?
I can see why you want to do this Gav but surely your Solar system is going to produce way in excess of your consumption if you reconnect it that way , so I don't really get it .
My thinking is that the ideal way is to try and use all of what your Solar system produces to minmise the pay back period .
Depends.. on a cloudy day we generate around 12KWH.. on a sunny day between 25 and 30KWH. If we use the oven then we use on average 20kwh per day.
Almost all appliances are run during the day so we draw from the solar, but the problem is that its instant, so if we have the washing machine on and the kettle and a cloud comes over we draw some from the grid.. cloud goes and we are covered again. Most electricity use is at night when the sun is down and that's when the electricity companies have got you by the curlys.
I understand that the power companies don't store my power.. it gets distributed as its made. In Australia, we are still 100% reliant on a turbine to produce power for that instant moment and until something like salt nitrate towers are introduced that actually store energy and then power turbines via steam etc, we are going to be wasting what we can produce during the daylight hours. Governments have no desire whatsoever to change the way electricity is produced... its not in their interests, they go by their future financial business forecasts which state that a company should expand its profits by around 15% per year.. when they don't, they put the price up to cover the loss of PROJECTED profits.. still making a huge profit, but not what they had expected. When they make OVER 15% they say they've done really well that financial and then add a further 15% to a bumper year for next years profit forecast. Doesn't take a genius to know that this type of business model just isn't viable... eventually, it all comes crashing down. Welcome to the capitalistic system!
Me?? im just trying to run my home as a business... if you cant control your own expenses then you go backwards. Im not prepared to do that.