The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => General Discussion => General Pinball Discussion => Topic started by: Brunswick Brawler on June 04, 2015, 09:52:55 PM
-
To those luckily enough to be able to get to Timezone: Did you notice if the playfield clear coast is thicker and shiner than previous pins?
-
To those luckily enough to be able to get to Timezone: Did you notice if the playfield clear coast is thicker and shiner than previous pins?
To me it was super shiny but hard to tell if it was thicker. I could see some in lane ball tracks so it has already had plenty of play and still looks good. It probably needs another week or so of balls shooting out of Gene's mouth to see how it holds up.
-
To those luckily enough to be able to get to Timezone: Did you notice if the playfield clear coast is thicker and shiner than previous pins?
To me it was super shiny but hard to tell if it was thicker. I could see some in lane ball tracks so it has already had plenty of play and still looks good. It probably needs another week or so of balls shooting out of Gene's mouth to see how it holds up.
It will be interesting to see how the ball drop(genes mouth)holds up over time :) hopefully there's a massive piece of Mylar.
-
To those luckily enough to be able to get to Timezone: Did you notice if the playfield clear coast is thicker and shiner than previous pins?
To me it was super shiny but hard to tell if it was thicker. I could see some in lane ball tracks so it has already had plenty of play and still looks good. It probably needs another week or so of balls shooting out of Gene's mouth to see how it holds up.
It will be interesting to see how the ball drop(genes mouth)holds up over time :) hopefully there's a massive piece of Mylar.
We don't really know exactly how this is going to work - so maybe the LE head drops and then drops / spits out the ball ?
If the playfield is anything like TWD LE, then it will have craters after one game. So there needs to be a thicker clear or mylar for sure.
-
To those luckily enough to be able to get to Timezone: Did you notice if the playfield clear coast is thicker and shiner than previous pins?
To me it was super shiny but hard to tell if it was thicker. I could see some in lane ball tracks so it has already had plenty of play and still looks good. It probably needs another week or so of balls shooting out of Gene's mouth to see how it holds up.
It will be interesting to see how the ball drop(genes mouth)holds up over time :) hopefully there's a massive piece of Mylar.
We don't really know exactly how this is going to work - so maybe the LE head drops and then drops / spits out the ball ?
If the playfield is anything like TWD LE, then it will have craters after one game. So there needs to be a thicker clear or mylar for sure.
Yeah true hopefully it tilts downs and balls roll off his tongue :) geez I'm excited :)
-
Machine is awesome.
Clearcoat is just like previous recent releases, super shiny and thick.
Sterns playfields are now rock hard and shiny as shiny can be.
I think the Playfield clearcoats were made better 3 or 5 models ago.
The game with later code will be unreal cause it's excellent now.
John Borg designs work so well. Playfield colours and plastics are fantastic.
Nino will be very happy. Happy to call it now ! Excellent.
-
Machine is awesome.
Clearcoat is just like previous recent releases, super shiny and thick.
Sterns playfields are now rock hard and shiny as shiny can be.
I think the Playfield clearcoats were made better 3 or 5 models ago.
The game with later code will be unreal cause it's excellent now.
John Borg designs work so well. Playfield colours and plastics are fantastic.
Nino will be very happy. Happy to call it now ! Excellent.
This is a problem for me as TWD LE is wafer thin and has more divots than a teenagers face after 100 games. I REALLY hope is better - otherwise I'll just buy a second playfield and have it cleared by Tim and Stu.
-
Could you share the dimples with some photos.
Every Playfield new has dimples on them because of the wood. I have not seen a playfield without dimples.
The clear fills in all the natural wood dimples and the clear stays undamaged unless the balls aren't right.
I have never seen a Stern machine or a Sega playfield (games dating back to 1997 to 1999 etc) with any damage done to the clear even after some games have been sited and played a lot. After cleaning and polishing plus waxing the playfields , they are as good as the day they were built, shined up and going strong.
You just never hear of anyone with a Stern playfield that has damage down to the colour or ink or wood.
I think the Stern clearcoat being "too thin" from factory is just a bit of a myth.
If you pay to have a new playfield cleared for $1,000, then perhaps people think that is thick, but it doesn't mean in my opinion there is any technical issue with Sterns factory clearcoats. If there was, we would be seeing damage and photos regularly. We never see it. If all playfields have tiny dimples in the wood, I am not sure how that relates to clearcoat. None of my Sterns have any issues after playing them.
I had my ACDC Pro sited at a special event one day with apx 300 games at 3 balls played on it and the clearcoat is still shiny and immaculate and undamaged.
I can't see the KISS Pinny being any different.
-
Brett, really difficult to photograph but i know exactly what Nino is referring to. Here is a spiderman i tried to take a pic of, although it didn't show it very well.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/05/ba64b314bc864c9898cf626d171f868a.jpg)
This has original code and was bought nib and has been in an office since purchased. It has 768 games on the audits. When looking you can see dimples all over it. My acdc that is huo and only had a similar number of games is exactly the same
-
Stern playfield s dimple
End of story
-
Stern does nothing wrong BS - *every* playfield that is made of *wood* (and that includes virtually every playfield) dimples from ball drops. QED. Bally, Williams, Capcom, and yes, Stern.
Perhaps not visible through rose coloured glasses, but they all dimple. All my WMS games have simples, even my BBB has some.
Strangeways has a WD full of dimples. I doubt he is making it up.
But what I notices a lot was that the WMS and Capcom games from the 1990's seem to hold up generally well, and better than a lot of Stern games I looked at recently out of box on site at the local Timezone where I go to play their latest games. I suspect that it is as much to do with where the ply is/was sourced as the clear.
But from first hand experience of having playfields clearcoated by experts like Tim & Stu, the Pinball Magic which has the sh!t played out of it by my mate who has it, has an amazingly low amount of dimpling. No it's not proof, but at least reasonable empirical evidence that clear coating by an expert compared to Stern churn 'em out thincoat holds up better.
-
Brett, really difficult to photograph but i know exactly what Nino is referring to. Here is a spiderman i tried to take a pic of, although it didn't show it very well.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/05/ba64b314bc864c9898cf626d171f868a.jpg)
This has original code and was bought nib and has been in an office since purchased. It has 768 games on the audits. When looking you can see dimples all over it. My acdc that is huo and only had a similar number of games is exactly the same
Hard to show in a pic but this does do a pretty good job. Talking about the playfield is NOT Stern bashing - it's customers wondering why a $8k to $11.5k new pin really needs its playfield re-coated if it's going to stand up well to use. If buyers don't talk about it Stern will never even think about addressing it. I had hoped Kiss was different as early pics showed a nice, seemingly thick glossy clear. Anyway, really looking forward now to the reveal of the LE/Prem gameplay!
-
Let's keep the KISS thread on track :) dimples has been done to death or start another thread.
Yes mum :p
-
Let's keep the KISS thread on track :) dimples has been done to death or start another thread.
Yes mum :p
Thanks son :)
-
Could you share the dimples with some photos.
Every Playfield new has dimples on them because of the wood. I have not seen a playfield without dimples.
The clear fills in all the natural wood dimples and the clear stays undamaged unless the balls aren't right.
I have never seen a Stern machine or a Sega playfield (games dating back to 1997 to 1999 etc) with any damage done to the clear even after some games have been sited and played a lot. After cleaning and polishing plus waxing the playfields , they are as good as the day they were built, shined up and going strong.
You just never hear of anyone with a Stern playfield that has damage down to the colour or ink or wood.
I think the Stern clearcoat being "too thin" from factory is just a bit of a myth.
If you pay to have a new playfield cleared for $1,000, then perhaps people think that is thick, but it doesn't mean in my opinion there is any technical issue with Sterns factory clearcoats. If there was, we would be seeing damage and photos regularly. We never see it. If all playfields have tiny dimples in the wood, I am not sure how that relates to clearcoat. None of my Sterns have any issues after playing them.
I had my ACDC Pro sited at a special event one day with apx 300 games at 3 balls played on it and the clearcoat is still shiny and immaculate and undamaged.
I can't see the KISS Pinny being any different.
Not dimples. Playfield was like a mirror prior to first games with Greg, Marty and myself. Playfield looked great. No issues prior to first game.
I can take as many photos as you need. It looks like the surface of the moon. When I told Greg that I could not play the game as it has divots in the clear, his replay was "That's NORMAL for a Stern clearcoat". I have not checked his other Sterns, but EVERY single person that has seen his TWD LE has seen the ball imprints. Greg bought NEW playfields with his NIB Sterns. In fact, Tim and Stu have his Ironman playfield for clearing for exactly the same reason. He was in the process of ordering a second playfield for TWD LE. In summary, Greg was a Stern collector that accepted that the factory thin playfield clears Stern provide "are what they are", and he simply ordered a second playfield to be cleared properly.
I restored a Fathom 4 years ago. Professionally cleared. Not one single divot. Not one chip near any of the many target holes. Looks like it was cleared yesterday. The game is played every day.
If you want me to post pictures, don't complain that it is another "stern bashing thread" - because the clear is a problem. A know problem with astute Stern collectors that they simply accept. I changed my way of thinking. This is the way Stern present their games. If we all complain, they might do something about it. That's why I assumed the KISS playfield had a thicker clear. It looks much better than the two NIB's we have done recently.
-
Let's keep the KISS thread on track :) dimples has been done to death or start another thread.
It is on topic. Members should be able to discuss different aspects of the game in the "KISS Stern" thread :) The impact of the ball out of Gene's mouth on the playfield was a topic of speculation. Now the game is here it's a topic that can be verified one way or the other. Nothing wrong with that - in fact one could say it's the way a healthy forum operates.
-
Let's keep the KISS thread on track :) dimples has been done to death or start another thread.
It is on topic. Members should be able to discuss different aspects of the game in the "KISS Stern" thread :) The impact of the ball out of Gene's mouth on the playfield was a topic of speculation. Now the game is here it's a topic that can be verified one way or the other. Nothing wrong with that - in fact one could say it's the way a healthy forum operates.
Ok fair enough but steel ball pounds wood = dimples :)
-
Ok fair enough but steel ball pounds wood = dimples :)
The dimples question relates to kiss, as we had discussed if kiss may have a thicker clear than previous Stern pins and what the affect of the ball drops from Gene's
would be on the clear coat. KISS needs a thick clear.
If it is thicker, then next question would be is has Stern done this for kiss only, or will it be used for all future Sterns. Yes, that question would be edging to straying from the topic :) . If the apparent thicker clear is was introduced to deal with the ball feeding/dropping out of Gene's mouth, then it may not be used again on future Sterns. I hope it truly is thicker, and that it becomes the norm for all future Sterns.
As a location player, I can't resist a shiny new game - even if the gameplay is bad. Reversing that, only having played a grimy Attack From Mars on location, I find that game average. A thick long lasting shine would earn heaps more if there are others like me that judge a pin by its shine.
KISS will be a big earner on location, thick clear or not. But I'd say it would be even a higher earner with a thick long lasting shiny Clear.
PS
Great gameplay video above!
-
Let's keep the KISS thread on track :) dimples has been done to death or start another thread.
It is on topic. Members should be able to discuss different aspects of the game in the "KISS Stern" thread :) The impact of the ball out of Gene's mouth on the playfield was a topic of speculation. Now the game is here it's a topic that can be verified one way or the other. Nothing wrong with that - in fact one could say it's the way a healthy forum operates.
Ok fair enough but steel ball pounds wood = dimples :)
Yeah okay - I'll learn to live with it. How do you like the gameplay?
-
Let's keep the KISS thread on track :) dimples has been done to death or start another thread.
It is on topic. Members should be able to discuss different aspects of the game in the "KISS Stern" thread :) The impact of the ball out of Gene's mouth on the playfield was a topic of speculation. Now the game is here it's a topic that can be verified one way or the other. Nothing wrong with that - in fact one could say it's the way a healthy forum operates.
Ok fair enough but steel ball pounds wood = dimples :)
This is where the confusion is. It is not the wood that is "dimpled" or has the ball impact "divots".
ANY playfield with these issues can easily be fixed by block sanding the clearcoat and re clearing. The ball does not affect the timber / wood. If it did, the paint would crack in the shape of the divot.
This problem occurs on these Sterns for two reasons ;
1) Clearcoat is too thin
2) Not enough time is allowed to cure (harden)
The thicker the clear, the longer the curing time. During curing time, no parts should be placed on the playfield. From a business point of view, it is BAD to have a cleared playfield sit there for a month to cure. With proper management, it can be done and it should be done. There's no reason why these playfields could have a thicker clear and longer curing time.
They are the facts. ALL Pinball manufacturers made playfields to be installed on games to make money. Bally Williams got it right. As collectors and hobbyists, we are used to seeing fully restored games with proper clearcoats that last hundreds of games before the first dimple or divot. It is EXPECTED now - so hopefully Stern realize this. Stern are aware that most of these games are going into homes and to have a late model Stern with a "standard clear" of 2 years ago is not going to look good next to a restored game made in the 90's with a restored playfield.
That's why I made the comment earlier that the KISS Pro appeared to have a much thicker clear. It WAS NOT as thin as previous releases, unless the photos from the Stern FB site were doctored.
-
My ACDC has held up really well after 1000's of games and so has my TWD there's bugger all dimples on the PF on either :) but my ST had heaps. As many have said the B/W had them to but after 20 years of games they blend in and are less noticeable :) shit now I'm off topic lol
-
looks great, like the colour changing pops, looks to be a challenging game, bugger they have skylight / high wall window reflection over the game
interesting at around 5 minutes 11 seconds is a close up of the kiss targets on the left and you can see DIMPLES..... in the skylight reflection part of the playfield (click image to make it bigger) - still looks like a cool game
-
looks great, like the colour changing pops, looks to be a challenging game, bugger they have skylight / high wall window reflection over the game
interesting at around 5 minutes 11 seconds is a close up of the kiss targets on the left and you can see DIMPLES..... in the skylight reflection part of the playfield (click image to make it bigger) - still looks like a cool game
There sure are dimples - holy crap that's really quite bad. The great thing is the game looks tough, some hard shots, colour is awesome, lighting cool & love the pops too. Really looking fwd to LE/prem gameplay!!
-
looks great, like the colour changing pops, looks to be a challenging game, bugger they have skylight / high wall window reflection over the game
interesting at around 5 minutes 11 seconds is a close up of the kiss targets on the left and you can see DIMPLES..... in the skylight reflection part of the playfield (click image to make it bigger) - still looks like a cool game
Those dimples do look bad. At the same time, the clear coat does not look as thick as seen previously. Given this video is taken at the factory, I wonder if this is a prototype machine, and Stern had noted the pitting which lead them to increase the clear coat thickness.
One would hope that is the case.
-
Dimpling on BNIB "never played on" playfields, to me is like the "orange peel effect" seen in the auto industry with factory paint jobs. It can usually only be seen on certain angles under certain light conditions.
I don't believe the clearcoat is too thin.
If the clearcoat wasn't adequately protecting the playfield, then I would Agee, but the clear is doing its job because no damage is occurring to Sterns that people have had for many years.
Just like the flying ball from the cannon shot on ACDC machines, the clearcoat is protecting the playfield cause I haven't seen any damage on my ACDC or anyone else's.
Given that dimpling is present on all manufacturered games incl Bally Williams, Data East and Stern and Sega and Gottlieb and Capcom etc etc, dimpling is only a aesthetic issue, not a representation of a flawed or non protecting clearcoat. I haven't seen any damage on any of my Sterns. So whilst the clear may appear thin to some compared to someone spending $1,000 and getting an already perfect playfield cleared over again and again multiple times, it seems a waste of $ to me because the Standard clearcoat is doing its job already. It seems overkill to get a BNIB game, pay $800 to $1,000 to buy a spare playfield, pay another $1,000 to have it recleared, then have the BNIB game pulled apart at great expense and then put it all back together because of factory incl dimpling.
If the dimpling is only an aesthetic issue when studying the game with your nose to the playfield, then buying new playfields etc etc seems to be a waste of time and $.
People who have had Stern games for many years aren't having issues with the playfield. The clear is fine.
If Dimpling occurs on most playfields from most eras, then why worry about an aesthetic issue which is microscope type stuff. Dimpling does not mean the clearcoat was never adequate.
For anyone who has a query about the Stern clearcoat process, why not drop John Borg a email at Stern USA.
I don't believe people will be unhappy with the KISS game. None of the last 5 years of Stern machines, or Segas from 17 years ago are showing any clearcoat failure so I don't feel a realistic clear issue exists.
I would be happy to send Borgy a email if any member wants me to.
The latest videos look great.
Pete asked if I took a video and some photos etc of the Kiss Pro at TimeZone and the answer is yes.
Will try to load some great photos n a video this next few days.
The game in person looks dam fine. The playfield has a mirror finish and the colours plus plastics look sensational.
Game plays great. Borgys designs always do.
Flow feels like morphing an ACDC Pro by SR with a X Men Pro by Borgy with a little bit of something else thrown in.
The Pro machine, as stock std will please anyone visually.
Add your own unique mods or metal work powdercoating or chrome work with a mix of the factory extras you can buy, and it's one good looking pinny.
I wish the Translite wasn't as close to the original 1978 artwork, but it still works very well.
The topper will look really good on top as well and will enhance the KISS on the translite.
-
I like how Borgy is stoked with his own work. A very good sign - like a fat chef :lol
I'm enjoying the Stern PR machine, and pictures like this are 100 times better than hearing Gary Stern talk about "business". Really liking this approach with the designers and employees. Very positive. Each day passes, and I am more and more excited to have my LE.
looks great, like the colour changing pops, looks to be a challenging game, bugger they have skylight / high wall window reflection over the game
interesting at around 5 minutes 11 seconds is a close up of the kiss targets on the left and you can see DIMPLES..... in the skylight reflection part of the playfield (click image to make it bigger) - still looks like a cool game
Those dimples do look bad. At the same time, the clear coat does not look as thick as seen previously. Given this video is taken at the factory, I wonder if this is a prototype machine, and Stern had noted the pitting which lead them to increase the clear coat thickness.
One would hope that is the case.
I'm hoping the game was a proto playfield. Greg's Stargate has a proto installed with a Bill Davis clearcoat. Not many games on it.
Regarding the "craters", I had a couple of LE owners look at Greg's TWD LE today - and this issue is also on an owners Star Trek LE - but not as bad. Upon closer inspection on TWD LE, there a massive crater on the right hand side inlane. There has never been a ball drop / fly ball or anything similar in this area. There is the inlane plastic and the sling plastic for protection. It makes no sense at all. Yet when unboxed, we all marveled at how the playfield looked like a sheet of glass.
Now I was conditioned to accept that this is the way the games are made. They are commercial machines. But I'm not convinced. Certainly, two prospective buyers were not at all impressed with the playfield issues. So if Stern think this IS the way it should be, they need to rethink their marketing strategy.
I have no issue in buying a second playfield and having it professionally clearcoated. It is clearly the only way a modern NIB Stern will stack up against almost all commercial repro playfields, or professional clearcoaters.
-
So $1,000 for a spare playfield, plus massive $ postage from the USA, then an extra $1,000 to have it re cleared makes a minimum of $2,000 to $2,500....
Then add 50 to 100 hours of work to swap out playfields ?
Seems like massive overkill to me when Std playfield is already mirror finish ?
What happens if the aftermarket $2500,s worth of reclear job starts to go hazy or do something weird after a year or three ? You are back to square one and $2500 down plus all the labour $.
What worries me is the unproven longevity of placing automative clear products designed for metal on wood
playfields ? Aren't these guys using automative 2 pack ?
Unless the people doing the clearcoats are using a wood only type clear suited specifically for wood only ?
Has anyone in Australia had a recleared playfield field tested for 2 or 3 years and seen the longevity from automative 2 pack ? Do the ball swirl marks polish out easily with Novus or normal Pinny wax etc.
At $2500 Apx for the exercise, that is a lot of $ for a little extra shine ?
Each to their own.
-
I think Cavey you might be blending 2 things here. Nino brought up dimpling due to thin clear coats and stated noticeable dimpling has been noted on games and you introduced damage and wear to clear coats which is a different issue and believe that suggests wearing down or cracking of the clear down to the screen layer of the playfield. Admittedly the clear coats have been holding up well on most games from observation of the various forums but the dimple depressions has been around for years and maybe on the increase of late and guessing that clear coats have evolved over the years improving wear and improving the degrees of resistance to dimpling.
Just a theory...
I am not an expert in clear coats but brought up on timberwork with my father being a woodwork teacher for 40 years + 15 years into his retirement and having written a couple hundred articles for various mags around the world so learnt a bit through his knowledge. A steel ball is harder than timber which we all know and I am sure all clear coats as well. My theory is that the ply used - meaning soft or hard varieities and the number of layers of ply plays a big part in what dimples develop I believe. When I got my IM late 2010 I asked AMD if they could get me a spare IM playfield which they did and interestingly for $650 to AMD's door. The first thing I noticed while both playfields remained the same thickness was the number of layers reduced with each layer becoming thicker which in turn allows more top layer compression and would be cheaper to make. Also Canadian Maple can be found as a soft or hard variety and the soft is commonly related to fast growth plantation timber which is cheaper. I don't know for a fact but the problem could be a combination of number of layers, soft or hard variety used and possibly a middle of the line thin clear coat used which will wears fine as the clear is strong but not strong enough to resist a steel ball racing around causing compression spots = dimples. Could Stern be doing a thicker clear to compensate for cheaper slightly softer ply with less layers? They won't admit to that.
The fact is dimpling has been around for a while and you often need the right light to see them and maybe on the flip side once all the playfield is dimpled it is harder and flat again so keep playing and enjoy.
-
So $1,000 for a spare playfield, plus massive $ postage from the USA, then an extra $1,000 to have it re cleared makes a minimum of $2,000 to $2,500....
Then add 50 to 100 hours of work to swap out playfields ?
Seems like massive overkill to me when Std playfield is already mirror finish ?
What happens if the aftermarket $2500,s worth of reclear job starts to go hazy or do something weird after a year or three ? You are back to square one and $2500 down plus all the labour $.
What worries me is the unproven longevity of placing automative clear products designed for metal on wood
playfields ? Aren't these guys using automative 2 pack ?
Unless the people doing the clearcoats are using a wood only type clear suited specifically for wood only ?
Has anyone in Australia had a recleared playfield field tested for 2 or 3 years and seen the longevity from automative 2 pack ? Do the ball swirl marks polish out easily with Novus or normal Pinny wax etc.
At $2500 Apx for the exercise, that is a lot of $ for a little extra shine ?
Each to their own.
Some of that is correct. For those that are used to the standard of clear, they need to take that extra step which stern SHOULD do in the factory. So really, it is an indictment of the quality of the build. Having said that, the context of my observations are that of someone who is used to providing a level of workmanship that is beyond the commercial constraints of running a business. But having said that, I'm running a business, and if I was to provide a client with a playfield that looked like the surface of the moon after 100 games, then I deserve to be criticized. The more people that complain, the more Stern will attend to this issue.
Based on three collectors viewing the TWD LE TODAY, all agreed that it is simply not acceptable for a NIB pinball machine to have a clear that badly affected. One collector has a lesser degree of the problem on a Star Trek LE. Another is a customer that was simply "put off" buy the issue. The third was surprised at the problem for such a low play game. To suggest that this SHOULD be acceptable, is simply just not right. One customer would be inclined to buy a Stern NIB - but after seeing the TWD LE - that won't happen. That frustrates me. I'm no fanboi, but I want stern to succeed, but i also want them to take their head out of the sand and listen to people who are genuinely trying to help.
I will post pictures on a separate thread on the proviso I'm not accused of being a Stern basher !
I used to think Greg's habit of buying a second playfield was simply "Greg being Greg" - he did this A LOT. But he brushed off the issue as being "normal for Stern clearcoats". It was "my problem.." I'm now a buyer. A NEW Stern customer - and I'm THRILLED to have and LE. But I'm frustrated that it is very possible that MY LE will look like TWD LE after 100 games ? Is this for real ?? That's BS for a $11,000 pinball machine.
To address your points Brett ;
The shipping would be similar to the topper - but a playfield would be thrown in to a container and cost nothing if I ask nicely &&
Not sure who clearcoats in your neck of the woods, but a clearcoat does not cost $1000 - $1500. Nowhere near it.
Playfield would cost $1000 landed if I had it shipped direct from Stern USA.
Hours to replace playfield ? don't care - it is my game !
Agreed - Mirror finish for the first handful of games - then it deteriorates.
The aftermarket clear would cost me 1/4 of your price.
I've cleared my own playfield (Ace's High) with a varnish 5 years ago, and it has had hundreds of games and looks perfect to this day.
I've had a Fathom cleared by an astute friend of mine 4-5 years ago and it is perfect to this day.
I've had 5 Bally / Williams playfields cleared over the last 5 years and all are perfect. No dimpling, divots, planking or reaction with the clear.
this should put anyone's mind to ease. The automotive clearcoats done by semi professionals and perfectionists like Hot Rodded Pins are better than any current commercial or boutique manufacturer. Greg's NEW Spiderman and Iron Man are currently at HRP undergoing a clearcoat process.
I have no problem buying a second playfield due to the clearcoat issue. I've just "accepted" it as being a commercial grade clearcoat. It is not a purist clearcoat = not a High End collector clearcoat.
thread has been slightly deviated - we might look at splitting it - sorry to those of you that have no interest in this discussion.
Again - I have a horse in this race, and I've been vocal to look after my own investment and also to provide constructive criticism. Some of which I have passed on to the Distributor that I ordered my game from.
My Stern KISS LE will be a centrepiece in my collection.
-
I think you are on the money with what you are wanting for your tastes Nino. Fair enough.
The figures I used re the Playfield costing $1,000 is in line with recent pricing of brand new playfields from Stern.
Kiss playfield espescially for a LE may cost more ?
The postage has to be factored in because 99 percent of people are not going to get it sent for free and the $400 cost for shipping is probably close based on other shipping quotes I have been informed of.
We haven't converted USA dollars $ to Aussie dollars yet so add 20 percent on top for both playfield purchase and shipping, insurance etc.
The clear coat cost you mention you would pay being around $250 is not going to be the same for normal Joe Public at retail prices. I doubt anyone up here or in Vic is going to charge less than $750 from my homework.
So again, the costs are extremely expensive for the average punter to go the way you are choosing.
I don't know and can't work out what your TWDead LE has wrong with it but I have never seen or heard of that on any Stern game after 100 plays.
I don't want people thinking there is something wrong with Sterns std factory clearcoat on 99.99 percent of their games because in my experience no issue exists and it would be unfortunate if people didn't buy a New Stern cause they think the playfields are all faulty when they are not. Any lost sales of any pinball machines in our hobby is one too many for me.
The clearcoat results that you like as standard I think have to be described as perfectionist so people can understand that there is not a normal need to go over and beyond the standard Stern clear unless you are a perfectionist, and even then, I think to be fair, the clearcoat results you are wanting for your personal Kiss pin would be for maybe one or five percent of normal buyers. Spending big money having a 90,s DMD game fully reconditioned to a Holy grail standard is fine for the one off purchase or Resto on that special game, but going to that level if you buy Sterns regularly to build a large collection like some of us Stern fanboys do would be cost prohibitive on a already brand new product. Probably for most anyway I would guess.
I don't know if Stern would or could or should go to those extremes financially with their playfields but I guess it wouldn't hurt for people to ask for the Deluxe of Deluxe clearcoat jobs if that's what they want. Perhaps it may be something Stern could look at if it entails a second clear of their playfields or a thicker coat from the get go.
I think I will ask them about their current process and ask about future plans if any or could feel them out about their clearcoat ing strategy incase they have something in mind ?
I don't believe you are a Stern badger because you want your game a certain way, but I do think the restoration high end environment of no expense spared of a single machine for a single customer market is probably a different world /situation compared to the mass manufacture of Sterns or JJP,s machines.
Maybe we will see some advances with both Stern and JJP on this front by those two businesses because they both are already involved in massive product development and judging by the last 2 to 5 years, they are making technology and product improvements daily and are working hard to get every cent out of the home pinball market.
What I am wondering about your Walking a Dead LE, is what the issue really is.
Until a few photos, I can only guess. Are the divets/dimples occurring cause the wood is too soft, regardless of clearcoat thickness, or is it just a normal microscopic wear n tear dimples from normal play that dissapears after cleaning or polishing ? Hard to understand the issue cause I have not heard or seen it before on a new Stern where new divets/dimples are appearing.
Either way, KISS machines will be here sooner or later and we will all get to see if the current batch of clearcoated playfields are still as shiny and tuff enough or better than the last 5 years worth of games that I have felt were perfectly fine playfield wise.
These days, customers want the very best for their dollar, so it's normal to be highly quality or end result finish focused as you are. Being someone who does restorations, your expectations were always going to be probably higher than anyone else's and is to be expected. Maybe you won't bother pulling your new machine to a 1000 bits and you might be happy with the factory finish. ?
I have always wondered if the pinball industry could have used a different ball coated in Teflon or something which wouldn't be as abrasive as steel or chrome balls. Maybe that leap forward would help playfield wear n tear ?
-
These days, customers want the very best for their dollar, so it's normal to be highly quality or end result finish focused as you are. Being someone who does restorations, your expectations were always going to be probably higher than anyone else's and is to be expected. Maybe you won't bother pulling your new machine to a 1000 bits and you might be happy with the factory finish. ?
sorry, but when you are spending $8000/ $10000 (or more) then you should get a product that is hard wearing
I don't see why you are defending Stern over this
-
What I am wondering about your Walking a Dead LE, is what the issue really is.
Until a few photos, I can only guess. Are the divets/dimples occurring cause the wood is too soft, regardless of clearcoat thickness, or is it just a normal microscopic wear n tear dimples from normal play that dissapears after cleaning or polishing ? Hard to understand the issue cause I have not heard or seen it before on a new Stern where new divets/dimples are appearing.
Its not an isolated incident mate, my post a few pages back showed it on a Spiderman with low plays, and my ACDC also has it with low plays. Others have also mentioned it on their own games. Jady may be onto something with the layers of ply theory....
I too like Nino, am not a Stern basher - in fact right now in my working collection (not including projects) i have more new Sterns than Bally/Williams, and i am absolutely loving playing them.
To further support Nino's comments about after market clear coating, i had a look at a Monster Bash that was clear coated and has been played a lot over the last 4 years - absolutely no sign of any wear, yellowing or dimpling, still looks amazing.
-
As I said earlier My Tron & TWD & ACDC had very minimal dimples but ST had a few that's maybe due to color tones that showed them up easier, to be honest it never really worried me I mean that ball is hard and it'll do damage its pinball :) some even put plastic protectors on to save damage. If Stern spent more money putting 10 layers of clear on then we'd all be complaining about price increases lol remember it's made for operators to put on site and make money :) op's probably don't care less as long as coins keep coming in.
I know other guys with NEW games and I've never heard them complain.
-
As I said earlier My Tron & TWD & ACDC had very minimal dimples but ST had a few that's maybe due to color tones that showed them up easier and to be honest it never really worried me I mean that ball is hard and it'll do damage its pinball :) some even put plastic protectors on to save damage. If Stern spent more money putting 10 layers of clear on then we'd all be complaining about price increase lol remember it's made for operators to put on site and make money.
They are going to be present on every game that has had a thin clearcoat. Industry standard has never had a thin clearcoat like this. I've literally stopped playing TWD LE as I'm concerned about further damage - which is a bit overboard, but I've asked other NIB Stern buyers to look at this machine before I write to Stern (third time !). Something needs to be done as it is definitely affecting potential sales.
I'd like to add that the magnets themselves have the divots. So the fact is clear that the ball is creating this issue. Nothing to do with timber etc.
-
As I said earlier My Tron & TWD & ACDC had very minimal dimples but ST had a few that's maybe due to color tones that showed them up easier and to be honest it never really worried me I mean that ball is hard and it'll do damage its pinball :) some even put plastic protectors on to save damage. If Stern spent more money putting 10 layers of clear on then we'd all be complaining about price increase lol remember it's made for operators to put on site and make money.
They are going to be present on every game that has had a thin clearcoat. Industry standard has never had a thin clearcoat like this. I've literally stopped playing TWD LE as I'm concerned about further damage - which is a bit overboard, but I've asked other NIB Stern buyers to look at this machine before I write to Stern (third time !). Something needs to be done as it is definitely affecting potential sales.
I'd like to add that the magnets themselves have the divots. So the fact is clear that the ball is creating this issue. Nothing to do with timber etc.
Maybe a faulty PF Nino? I'm not trying to be smart just a thought as I can honestly say my WD I struggle to see many and it's a pro!
-
I've had two NIB Sterns now.
In regards to the dimples, I think it depends on the game and whether there are lots of air balls / toys spitting balls out.
On my Metallica, there is factory mylar down in these areas and to be honest I've not found any dimples. However the overall clear is fairly thin. I would like to see another 2 - 3 coats on at the factory, but as Pete pointed out this is time and money.
In comparison to other playfields, I've had Bally/Williams games with very similar wafer thin clear (but this is after 20yrs use) and others which is sufficient. I guess back then came down to the manufacturer of the playfield.
I don't know whether Stern has there playfields clearcoated by hand or robot.
The clear coat shrinks slightly when curing and really should be left for 60 days or so before a ball even hits it. Obviously this is not possible with production machines.
In my opinion, if you run your finger over the playfield, you should not be able to feel the slight impressions / raising where screened artwork is. The clear should cover and absorb over this. Same goes that you should not be able to feel where the insert is.
If I were purchasing a second spare and having HRP do the clear, I'd be upgrading with a ceramic 2k clear and you'd be hard pressed to get any better than that.
-
I wonder whether there is a difference between a new machine that is assembled and shipped to Australia for example and is opened up and played as soon as the new owner gets it and a machine that might sit on the shelf for a few months before being bought i.e. the clearcoat is given more time to cure whilst it is sitting on the shelf. Would this be a possible explanation as to why some playfields dimple quite badly and others haven't?
My Metallica LE is wearing pretty good for a Stern machine and doesn't appear to have as much dimpling as other Stern machines I have had. It wasn't opened and played for at least 6 months, probably more like 9 months I think. The magnet in front of Sparky has significant dimples and I need to remove it every few months to file down the burred edges to stop it damaging the playfield - it is very soft metal but all in all the actual playfield isn't too bad which seems to support the theory that maybe a longer cure time is needed.
-
CC is there for 2 reasons... protect the artwork from friction off the ball and to present a hard barrier between ball and timber. Playfields were ALWAYS made from Grade A ply - a maple top with a hard wood sandwich with all voids ( air spaces) compressed out.. theres a good reason for this.. it greatly reduces ball damage.
Reduce the quality of the ply to a softer mix and a hard steel ball will dent it. You could chuck a ton of CC on top to make a rock hard barrier but if the timber is soft, then its prone to expansion also and would lead to the CC cracking or lifting over time... a balance would be to make the CC not as thick as it needs to be but expect some dimpling.
Its well known that Stern PFs are prone to dimpling.. no argument there and basic sense will tell you that if the timber is HARD then damage is less prone.
All down to the quality of the ply..
-
Play the games more and the dimples will magically disappear.
I had 3 NIB Sterns and noticed dimpling before any play and always thought it was the way the clear coat dried and created orange peel look. AC/DC even had some over the perspex covering the lower playfield. Which is harder, perspex or plywood?
The dimples on my AC/DC are harder to notice now due to the number of games played. I have to really look hard with a fluro light to spot any.When it was new, they were much easier to spot.
The dimples on my Star Trek are more pronounced as the game is newer and the playfield lighting is brighter than most other pins.
-
Play the games more and the dimples will magically disappear.
I had 3 NIB Sterns and noticed dimpling before any play and always thought it was the way the clear coat dried and created orange peel look. AC/DC even had some over the perspex covering the lower playfield. Which is harder, perspex or plywood?
The dimples on my AC/DC are harder to notice now due to the number of games played. I have to really look hard with a fluro light to spot any.When it was new, they were much easier to spot.
The dimples on my Star Trek are more pronounced as the game is newer and the playfield lighting is brighter than most other pins.
Well said and spot on :)
-
Well, all I can say is I have no idea who to believe on this issue. Very divided opinion. My mate's AC/DC is heavily dimpled at 200-odd plays - but are you saying this will disappear the more it is used? That doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'm not saying you are wrong. I am however in the camp that thinks a $8k plus bnib pin should come with a super-hard, super-glossy clearcoat. At the end of the day it's close to, if not the most important & most looked at piece of a pin.
-
Well, all I can say is I have no idea who to believe on this issue. Very divided opinion. My mate's AC/DC is heavily dimpled at 200-odd plays - but are you saying this will disappear the more it is used? That doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'm not saying you are wrong. I am however in the camp that thinks a $8k plus bnib pin should come with a super-hard, super-glossy clearcoat. At the end of the day it's close to, if not the most important & most looked at piece of a pin.
I think it is tongue in cheek about the dimples disappearing, basically the more the whole playfield is dimpled it starts to look flat again %.%
I think the hardness of the clear is a good point and read 60 days is a good time period up to 90 days. So imagine the playfields are just made and if Stern are doing the just in time manufacturing the playfields arrive maybe 1 week fresh. They are immediately assembled, packed and sent out - another 1 week. Then over to say Aus via ship and to distributors - about 2-3 weeks. So total of 5 weeks, so short of 3-4 weeks of full curing time if all the dates were tight for a 60 day wait period. Do they still stamp the playfield with the date of manufacturer (screening) as then you will have a good indication of potential softness.
And I still believe the quality of the ply is the other huge potential component but with a thick cured CC on it would have a better chance of dimple resistance.
-
Definitely nothing to worry about. At first I was worried but after several thousand games, my AC/DC is running like magic with no signs of playfield wear. Where there were dimples at first when new, I have to look bloody hard to spot any.
Now to run in my Star Trek which needa a lot of catching up.
-
^^^ "now to run in my ST " lol funny stuff :)
What I'll Do is leave my KISS in its box for 6 weeks after receiving it to minimise dimples? f**k NO IM PLAYING IT lol all good each to there own it's actually been a good conversation/thread
-
Little unsure about some theories. If the cc is under done and needs more cure time and say they are assembled within a week, would not the posts and other assemblies bed into it as well. Has anyone noticed this? Also when wood screwing into a fresh pf can also cause th cc to lift and blister. Anyone see this on their games?
-
Only Stern would know why they dimple and I doubt they will tell... if it doesn't deviate the ball then its not really an issue. No worse than rolling over a Mylar edge
-
Posts look fine Rob no issues there and also zero ball deviation so really it's just personal choice it's never bothered me if I see a few dimples :) also new sterns are so dam fast there will always be air balls and to me that's part of rush :)
-
Posts look fine Rob no issues there and also zero ball deviation so really it's just personal choice it's never bothered me if I see a few dimples :) also new sterns are so dam fast there will always be air balls and to me that's part of rush :)
that might be the answer. Air balls pounding the pf. Maybe older b/w games etc might not have many air balls equalling less damage
-
Posts look fine Rob no issues there and also zero ball deviation so really it's just personal choice it's never bothered me if I see a few dimples :) also new sterns are so dam fast there will always be air balls and to me that's part of rush :)
that might be the answer. Air balls pounding the pf. Maybe older b/w games etc might not have many air balls equalling less damage
Yeah you might be right :) these games are lightning fast :)
-
The other thing that AC/DC worried me at first was how the playfield would cope with the cannon shots. I expected more wear on lower left playfield. In actual fact, no problems here so far.
-
My fh repro pf, 1697 games no dimples or marks near ball drop. Did get an extra cc before install
-
I've taken photos of the dimple damage, but the glare obscured them. I took several videos that the problem is highlighted. I'll see how I go with uploading it. It is quite large.
I recently examined a "restored" ST TNG playfield installed in a game. It was clearly too thick, and it had divots / dimples all over it. I assume the same wood is used on all ST TNG games - original playfield - just badly cleared. The divot / dimples were caused by the ball impacting to poor clearcoat.
-
OK - I've screen capped the videos - they are simply too large to upload etc.
Now this post and these pictures need to be taken in context. Please don't be a fool and view these as a "Stern bashing thread".
This is an issue that I took an interest in as Greg used to buy a second playfield for each of his NIB game BECAUSE of this exact issue. I was alarmed at the need to buy another playfield, but that's what he did. The SOLE purpose was to have them sent off to HRP for a proper clearcoat. Now I'm a KISS LE buyer, and if this is what is acceptable or "normal" for NIB buyers, then I'll buy another playfield and have it professionally cleared - I have NO PROBLEM doing that. I have not seen this issue in detail on other games. It is not prevalent on CSI, the other Stern i really like playing.
These are photos of Greg's TWD LE - Circa 100 games. I did not want to move the game outside in the sun - which would have showed every minute detail - I left the game inside the showroom and guided the phone camera under the reflection of the fluro which is overhead. The "craters", "dimples", "divots", "ball impressions" - whatever you want to call them - are ALL OVER the playfield EXCEPT the shooter lane and inlanes / outlanes. They are not isolated to the areas with the fluro reflection, they are everywhere.
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20001.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20002.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20003.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20006.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20007.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20008.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20009.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20010.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20011.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20013.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20014.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20015.png)
(http://australianpinballrestorations.com.au/pictures/misc/TWD/TWD%20LE%20PF%20016.png)
It is a problem for a $11,000 pinball machine to have this issue. I personally think that it is simply not acceptable. In a way, I'm looking forward to other's CONSTRUCTIVE comments, as it may lead to me asking for another playfield. If it is "the norm", then I'll write to Stern asking them if they think it is acceptable.
My question is ;
Is this the normal appearance of a $11,000 pinball's playfield after 100 games ?
Is this an isolated case, and I have a genuine claim to ask Stern for a replacement playfield ?
-
Nino, that is seriously bad. My 3 Sterns are nothing like that.
Looking at some of the bigger craters, could it be that they are now applying a thicker layer and not allowing sufficient curing time before shipping?
-
I don't think that's normal after only 100 games, my WD has 100's of games and I struggle to see them. Nino send photos to Stern or the distributor as they'd be very interested with it I'm sure. I just noticed the magnet has them how? That's not cleared.
-
Every playfield is unique because the wood is from different trees Ofcourse so some playfields will have it, some won't.
Some dimples are from the wood and some from the clearcoat. It's going to be impossible to say.
I can only add that I have never seen a playfield on any game, from any manufacturer without pre existing dimpling.
Some have a small amount everywhere, some have a large amount only in some areas, some a combination.
The playfield is wood, the bealls are steel like others have said. What can you do ? Nothing from any factory mass produced games or you just play it and change the playfield in 5 or 10 years of you don't like the factory finish.
It's probably time to seek answers from Sterns engineering/product development dept for those who are worried.
The fact that every playfield is unique because of the wood means you are going to probably going to end up going in circles.
We are back to wood and steel balls.
We are back to people having major different personal tastes and expectations.
It's going to be a personal decision here and some will care and others won't.
Can anyone definitively say what dimpling is or isn't caused by.
Only the people who make the playfields can probably answer this.
I don't think the clear should be described as thincoat. I think it's fairer to say it's standard factory clearcoat. The same as any of the manufacturers have done over the past 30 years. Everyone has their own opinion. As long as u are happy with your own and unique game, that is all that matters..
P.S - the zombies artwork look great on the playfield don't they.
-
Nino my mate's AC/DC is very similar - BUT I would say the dimpling (craters really) under the "L" in WELL are markedly worse than anything on his playfield. So it's a bit of each but personally I think you'd have a decent case that this playfield is not fit for purpose & perhaps Stern will replace it.
-
So we will call them "dimples" - just for the sake of describing the problem.
I can confirm 100% it is not the timber. The dimples are on the inserts. The inserts are not made of wood. The problem is definitely - 100% - The clearcoat. This playfield was like glass when we unboxed it. no blemishes except the area under the bicycle girl ramp.
I have never seen this issue on other playfields. I did a quick scan of over 30 DMDs today, and not one of them has this issue. I have seen enough playfields - I've even seen a Dr Who with the clear worn away to reveal the serial number etched into the playfield. The ONLY place I've seen this ;
1 - This game
2 - A game cleared by a backyarder that was too thick and was populated a week after the clear. Not cured.
The dimpling is caused by the ball - that's clear enough. The ball is impacting on a soft clear. In theory, it should be cured by now - yet it is impossible to say if further play will damage it even further. So until I clear this up (no pun intended), it is an expensive ornament..
-
The first time I really noticed the Stern thincoat dimpling was on a PotC that had been unboxed just a few day prior. I think it really showed up on that game as the colours are more on the lighter side. At the time i thought it a one off issue. Interestingly my Elvis has little dimpling.
As for recent reproduction playfields I can see a little on the CPR Firepower playfield, but very little on a first run mirco AFM - and you don't get much faster, plus its renowned for airballs. I think the ceramic clear coat goes some way to proving that a quality clear coat does add some protection although it may very well be the European ply as well.
-
I believe you have a case to request a replacement. I have heard of a big buck pf being replaced but I cannot recall the reasoning. The only thing running against you is the delay in alerting them to the problem. I'd give it a try at the very least
-
Little unsure about some theories. If the cc is under done and needs more cure time and say they are assembled within a week, would not the posts and other assemblies bed into it as well. Has anyone noticed this? Also when wood screwing into a fresh pf can also cause th cc to lift and blister. Anyone see this on their games?
Yes I have. Metallica LE, I moved the post just above the outlane, you can see when I lifted it up it took not only the clear but the black artwork with it.
-
To be honest, looks way worse than I expected, had a look at my pro & looks ok for over 3k plays I guess, will have a closer look tomorrow & take some pics.
-
NONE of my games PF's have that dimpling. If you've never seen a machine without them then broaden your horizons
-
Just a thought... but it is definitely the CC not the timber as its on the inserts. Fish eyes created in a CC are because of grease/ silicon residues and leave craters where in the centre there is no CC. Often a 2nd coat will still not fill these craters.
So its not fish eyeing..
Its not " orange peeling" as its dimples are too round.
Ive only seen this type of finish if a roller is used.. normally the foam ones. Leaves a lot of air pocket bubbles that pop... how thick the clear is and ambient conditions would determine the amount of craters.
I strongly suspect that the CC is rollered on
-
Stern haven't used extra clear in games for ages, just another example of cost cutting.
Nothing new here.
-
Just a thought... but it is definitely the CC not the timber as its on the inserts. Fish eyes created in a CC are because of grease/ silicon residues and leave craters where in the centre there is no CC. Often a 2nd coat will still not fill these craters.
So its not fish eyeing..
Its not " orange peeling" as its dimples are too round.
Ive only seen this type of finish if a roller is used.. normally the foam ones. Leaves a lot of air pocket bubbles that pop... how thick the clear is and ambient conditions would determine the amount of craters.
I strongly suspect that the CC is rollered on
The playfield surface was like a mirror when we unboxed the game. It was stunning. Imagine a piece of glass, then it started to deteriorate. After a week, Greg took the factory manual and was about to order a replacement playfield. I could try moving an inlane post, but on this game, I'd have to remove ramps etc..
I would like more feedback on other member's Stern machines. Anyone else have a TWD LE ?
-
Just a thought... but it is definitely the CC not the timber as its on the inserts. Fish eyes created in a CC are because of grease/ silicon residues and leave craters where in the centre there is no CC. Often a 2nd coat will still not fill these craters.
So its not fish eyeing..
Its not " orange peeling" as its dimples are too round.
Ive only seen this type of finish if a roller is used.. normally the foam ones. Leaves a lot of air pocket bubbles that pop... how thick the clear is and ambient conditions would determine the amount of craters.
I strongly suspect that the CC is rollered on
Got me stumped then...
The playfield surface was like a mirror when we unboxed the game. It was stunning. Imagine a piece of glass, then it started to deteriorate. After a week, Greg took the factory manual and was about to order a replacement playfield. I could try moving an inlane post, but on this game, I'd have to remove ramps etc..
I would like more feedback on other member's Stern machines. Anyone else have a TWD LE ?
-
I'd be asking for another playfield.
A friend of mine who owned an AC/DC had one of the inserts pop up. Even thou the machine was about 6mths months out of warranty Stern eventually gave in and shipped over a complete drop in replacement playfield.
-
Nino, from my limited experience with Stern machines, 2 x AC/DC and a Metallica, I would say that the TWD playfield you have there is pretty much the norm. Both of the AC/DC machines were much the same and then as others have mentioned, after more and more plays, the dimples seem to blend in to each other and are not as pronounced.
I wouldn't move posts just for the sake of it, not worth the risk of damaging the playfield if you don't have to. I was devastated when I saw what happened with mine.
Stern playfields are what they are. Be aware of this when you buy a brand new Stern machine, it is nothing new so don't expect anything to change just because you bought a new machine. The way I see it you have two options. Source a 2nd playfield, get it cleared by HRP and swap it over or just accept it for what it is, play the machine, enjoy it and be thankful that there are new machines available to buy and play. Third option, simply don't buy one.
-
Nino, from my limited experience with Stern machines, 2 x AC/DC and a Metallica, I would say that the TWD playfield you have there is pretty much the norm. Both of the AC/DC machines were much the same and then as others have mentioned, after more and more plays, the dimples seem to blend in to each other and are not as pronounced.
I wouldn't move posts just for the sake of it, not worth the risk of damaging the playfield if you don't have to. I was devastated when I saw what happened with mine.
Stern playfields are what they are. Be aware of this when you buy a brand new Stern machine, it is nothing new so don't expect anything to change just because you bought a new machine. The way I see it you have two options. Source a 2nd playfield, get it cleared by HRP and swap it over or just accept it for what it is, play the machine, enjoy it and be thankful that there are new machines available to buy and play. Third option, simply don't buy one.
LIKE
-
Just to clarify, that last paragraph is a general comment directed at anyone thinking of buying a new Stern machine who has doubts about the quality of the clearcoat, dimples, playfields etc etc.
-
tried to take some pics with moving the light around showing up any major dimples,
Like you said, any one else out there with a LE/Prem could compare,
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu338/earlymodelkits/004_zpsiacfstaf.jpg) (http://s661.photobucket.com/user/earlymodelkits/media/004_zpsiacfstaf.jpg.html)
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu338/earlymodelkits/003_zpsavhpw5p5.jpg) (http://s661.photobucket.com/user/earlymodelkits/media/003_zpsavhpw5p5.jpg.html)
(http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu338/earlymodelkits/005_zpslvbbzxao.jpg) (http://s661.photobucket.com/user/earlymodelkits/media/005_zpslvbbzxao.jpg.html)
-
I think there are a number of factors which are contributing to the dimples on the playfield.
1. The clearcoat is exceptionally thin. I would estimate it is only 1 to 2 coats (max). More likely one dust coat, one final. Too thin in my opinion.
2. The game as a lot of air time / air balls
3. The timber is not as 'cured' or hard as it could be.
Its my view that the combination of 1-3 above is whats causing it.
I believe if there was a ceramic 2k clear coat (thicker), then these issues would not be visible and less of a 'golf ball' appearance.
I took some further photos of a TWDLE this morning:
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-8_zpsmkby6n9i.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-8_zpsmkby6n9i.jpg.html)
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-4_zpspngov5nq.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-4_zpspngov5nq.jpg.html)
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-3_zps12o3uixg.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-3_zps12o3uixg.jpg.html)
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-2_zpswzzyrdpc.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-2_zpswzzyrdpc.jpg.html)
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-5_zpsdrbbagk2.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-5_zpsdrbbagk2.jpg.html)
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-7_zpslol2wlnw.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-7_zpslol2wlnw.jpg.html)
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-6_zpstkhdxp30.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples-6_zpstkhdxp30.jpg.html)
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples_zps0evsmsqc.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/TWDLE/Dimples_zps0evsmsqc.jpg.html)
-
images are too far away! can you take a closer pic please? *)*
WNBJM and KISS have a couple already too! not a big deal to me, but can understand why people get annoyed.
Metal via wood, metal will always win, look what metal on metal does.
To me it means it is getting used and enjoyed.
As long as it doesn't wear through.
-
images are too far away! can you take a closer pic please? *)*
WNBJM and KISS have a couple already too! not a big deal to me, but can understand why people get annoyed.
Metal via wood, metal will always win, look what metal on metal does.
To me it means it is getting used and enjoyed.
As long as it doesn't wear through.
You should be able to click on the images then the zoom icon (just don't click any of the stupid photobucket pop ups)...
Although I would advise not to eat your lunch whilst looking as its not pretty.
To be fair, anything photographed macro will show 'warts n all'. My intention is not to bag out Stern, just simply providing some hard evidence showing that perhaps they need to look at more clear (or ceramic) on the playfields to stop this from happening. Again, when we're spending $10k + I expect a bit better.
-
I bought a replacement playfield for STTNG from Mirco from Germany and it dimpled as well. I thought it was normal. Metal ball dropping on wooden substrate must cause some damage. Anyone know what specific brand of clear coat is being used by the professionals mentioned in this post. I have done a few myself with Upol brand 2K clear.
-
It appears from martyj pics that it is not happening on the inserts...so maybe the softer timber is the weakest point?
-
I couldn't see any on inserts which I photographed.
I did read a couple of interesting posts on Pinside about the great dimple debate https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-dimple-reality-check
It shows some photographs of Bally/Wms games with similar issues, albeit different photographs so hard to exactly compare.
I guess it is harder to notice on the older machines, due to use. I guess for those of us who buy NIB and fold out nearly $10k are picky and closely inspecting every inch of the machine over and over.
I guess if you're concerned, buy a spare playfield, go the ceramic HRP treatment and be happy!
-
I think most are happy even without buying a spare PF :) I am and can't wait to play it :)
-
It appears from martyj pics that it is not happening on the inserts...so maybe the softer timber is the weakest point?
+1
I think there is large variance in the Stern playfields. Only an educated guess but Nino's TWD issue seems to be the clear-coat. Big dimples on top of inserts has to rule out the plywood as the primary cause. Not necessarily too thin - but definitely not hard enough (either the product or manufacturing conditions/curing time). Martyj's could well be softish plywood. Some owners seem to have no issues at all (or say they don't). Perhaps it comes down to the playfield & the day it's produced. I would not be happy with Nino's TWD playfield - it seems extreme to me. However, given all the reports of dimpling I'm bracing myself to expect severe dimpling in the 1st new Stern I buy. The big qn is whether to buy an additional playfield as a backup. Is it worth it come resale time?
-
Some people on pinside let their NIB stern so for six months before playing them, to give the clear time to cure
The clear is cured when you cannot smell it
-
Look at the NIPPLES on this play field!
Sorry, sorry you wanted to know about DIMPLES &&
-
It appears from martyj pics that it is not happening on the inserts...so maybe the softer timber is the weakest point?
There are some inserts with dimpling, however, not deep depressions or craters as on timber areas. Another anomaly we found today was serious "orange peel" in the top RH corner where the rollover are located - further proof that this playfield's clear is way too thin.
I spent some time testing the clearcoat theory - "Pinball Mythbusters" ? I took the exact ball out of TWD LE and I dropped it on several playfields in my factory.
To ensure the testing was fair, I placed a flipper bat on four other playfields - all clearcoated - in an area that is not really seen and has no prior wear or damage. I placed TWD LE ball on the top of the bat, and allowed it to drop on the playfields. Here are the results ;
Genie - Ball drop under apron area - Nothing. Perfect - Admittedly - this is a very thick clear. Tried several times. Can't get any reaction.
T2 - Ball drop under apron area - Tiny dimple after 2 -3 ball drops.
Sopranos - Ball drop under apron area - Tiny dimple after 2 -3 ball drops.
Stern Playboy - Ball drop under apron area - Tiny dimple after 2 -3 ball drops.
Drumroll .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..
TWD LE - Ball drop under RHS flipper - left a massive crater in the clear.
So it would be considered to be normal to have small dimples in a clearcoated playfield = Yes.
Metal ball against clear over timber - over a long period of time.
The issue with TWD LE is simply a case of VERY poor coverage of the clear, and way to thin for a $11,000 pinball machine.
I'm hoping that the problem is isolated to this one playfield. I will be contacting Stern for a replacement playfield. Thanks to the guys that have popped into have a look at the issue.
-
It appears from martyj pics that it is not happening on the inserts...so maybe the softer timber is the weakest point?
+1
I think there is large variance in the Stern playfields. Only an educated guess but Nino's TWD issue seems to be the clear-coat. Big dimples on top of inserts has to rule out the plywood as the primary cause. Not necessarily too thin - but definitely not hard enough (either the product or manufacturing conditions/curing time). Martyj's could well be softish plywood. Some owners seem to have no issues at all (or say they don't). Perhaps it comes down to the playfield & the day it's produced. I would not be happy with Nino's TWD playfield - it seems extreme to me. However, given all the reports of dimpling I'm bracing myself to expect severe dimpling in the 1st new Stern I buy. The big qn is whether to buy an additional playfield as a backup. Is it worth it come resale time?
Marty took the photos of TWD LE at my place = same machine.
No one should have to fork out extra $ for a second playfield because the factory playfield in modern pinball machine worth $11,000 is sub standard. But I can see this being the reality. It would certainly prevent me buying another Stern.
-
Some people on pinside let their NIB stern so for six months before playing them, to give the clear time to cure
The clear is cured when you cannot smell it
That's overkill. I've installed playfields after 2 months and they were rock hard. When my KISS LE arrives, I'll be playing it within the first 5 minutes :D
-
Some people on pinside let their NIB stern so for six months before playing them, to give the clear time to cure
The clear is cured when you cannot smell it
That's overkill. I've installed playfields after 2 months and they were rock hard. When my KISS LE arrives, I'll be playing it within the first 5 minutes :D
If TWD LE Nino is has got dimpled today, the machine was built 6 months ago. So the issue is nothing to do with curing time.
I wonder if it may relate to drying speed time. 'Crystalline' materials cooled quickly from their liquid state become dull but flexible (annealed), and when cooled quickly become shiny but hard & brittle. I thought 'orange peel' was caused by slow cooling - which would also relate to dull but flexible. (I'm unsure of the orange peel cause).
...could it be that the reason the we are getting inconsistent report is that Stern's clear coater isn't controlling the cooling process. The dimpled ones were simply made in summer so naturally cooled slowly, and the shiny 'flakey' ones were made in winter so were naturally 'snap frozen' in Chicago.
Question to Platinum: Am i correct to say that your process is to take the playfields out of the oven quickly? And the reason you clear coat doesn't crack, is that they get strength from being thick.
-
Some people on pinside let their NIB stern so for six months before playing them, to give the clear time to cure
The clear is cured when you cannot smell it
That's overkill. I've installed playfields after 2 months and they were rock hard. When my KISS LE arrives, I'll be playing it within the first 5 minutes :D
If TWD LE Nino is has got dimpled today, the machine was built 6 months ago. So the issue is nothing to do with curing time.
I wonder if it may relate to drying speed time. 'Crystalline' materials cooled quickly from their liquid state become dull but flexible (annealed), and when cooled quickly become shiny but hard & brittle. I thought 'orange peel' was caused by slow cooling - which would also relate to dull but flexible. (I'm unsure of the orange peel cause).
...could it be that the reason the we are getting inconsistent report is that Stern's clear coater isn't controlling the cooling process. The dimpled ones were simply made in summer so naturally cooled slowly, and the shiny 'flakey' ones were made in winter so were naturally 'snap frozen' in Chicago.
Question to Platinum: Am i correct to say that your process is to take the playfields out of the oven quickly? And the reason you clear coat doesn't crack, is that they get strength from being thick.
The game was played from the day the kit arrived from Stern to Address the bicycle girl fix. It's 100 games were from December to Early February. It had only a handful of games since Greg's passing on the 18th Feb. 99% of the games on this game were December - Early Feb. I took the game out earlier this week for a quick clean and I was looking at updating the code. I checked the playfield as there were numerous issues that I needed to look at and the dimpling issue really became apparent.
I don't think it is curing time. It is very clear to all that have seen the issue, that it is a very poor quality clearcoat, and way too thin for a professional finish. In fact, it looks like the top right hand corner had it's "mist coat" and that was it !
I firmly believe it is a "factory defect". I can drop a ball on other playfields and struggle to see a dimple until the second or third drop. This playfield under the same test leaves a crater.
-
That's great analysis work Nino, thanks for taking the time to do that. Can't blame people for wanting a little more longevity for the amount of coin being asked.
-
Taking a closer look at Marty's photos I can see a lot or arc ruts left by the ball. I have never seen them on any of my playfields. That clear coat is definitely defective and very soft.
Chech the arcing near the arrow insert. Looks like an ice scating ring after a busy day.
-
nice testing Nino, and as you noted that it appears to have a mist coat in the corner suggesting the CC should of been at a much higher quality, but BB made a interesting point on the initial cooling as when cooling metal after heating can affect the molecule structure so it may play a factor as well with CC and I still believe that the ply is also a factor but the only way to determine that is by doing a Brinell / Janka Hardness Test. Quite often many quality plys are made with what is considered a clear timber = meaning no knots in the visual layers but who knows if there are some in the middle layers though I am sure if people had a poke around we would see those in any through holes in a playfield so pretty sure they are using select clear timber on all layers. The other is is slow growth (original trees) and fast growth (plantation trees) timber with fast being softer in strength due to the growing conditions and gone are the years where the timber is dried properly like the old days. Even on the CPR page they have removed the plywood info as they are looking at a new supplier. They state they prefer 7 ply over the cheaper 5 ply as 5ply fails quicker and some of the older quality playfields used 9 ply which is your bees knees timber probably from long growth forests not plantation forests. Lastly another factor is the type and quality of the glue used to bind each layer adds to the strength.
So unless someone takes a new playfield, a 10 years old one and 20 year old playfield and do a slice and dice of each one and run tests like Janka on a section with a mild clear, a thick stern clear, a HRP clear, a ceramic clear it is hard to determine the real failing point as to what is really happening:
- ply layers
- ply grade (old growth / plantation growth)
- glue used
- clear coat (mist & mild, thick, automotive and ceramic)
- curing conditions
In relation to clears, since I don't know anything I tried googling some info and say with the products at this link, various products have mixing recommendations, drying recommendations and all state various levels of being gloss, durable and flexible to a degree but are they truely designed for a pinball environment for impacts hence the CC generally holds up to the steel ball racing around a playfield, bouncing etc but feel the surface below is what is giving way to the impact of the steel ball. If the ply is softer and the CC flexible the CC adjusts in shape with the surface below (timber) denting.
http://www.hichem.com.au/hicheminfo/System%20Books/2%20PACK%20booklet.pdf
it would be a great test to do the above of a number of playfields and clears etc to cancel out some of the theories but pointless as their are alot of unknowns and doubt certain companies would ever share a study like this if even they have considered the various components (which I doubt), so the best we can do is at least ensure a decent CC is applied and then just enjoy playing the game and if you can afford it buy a spare playfield if you know a game is going to be your grail / keeper pin.
-
Taking a closer look at Marty's photos I can see a lot or arc ruts left by the ball. I have never seen them on any of my playfields. That clear coat is definitely defective and very soft.
Chech the arcing near the arrow insert. Looks like an ice scating ring after a busy day.
In all honesty I don't think we'll ever know if it's the clear or the ply or both. Looking through all the pics the dimples on the inserts are there but much less pronounced, so I think ply may play at least some part. Nino, I think there's general consensus your TWD playfield is beyond the norm. I've never seen a playfield that bad (I know we are calling them dimples but you do, objectively, have craters). It will be interesting to see what Stern says. They may well be upfront & say yep, that one slipped through, & here's a replacement. I hope they do.
-
When the dimples are deeper than the clear coat, as seems to be the case in some of these photos, the wood is also being dimpled!
-
I will post in this thread rather than clutter up the KISS thread
People, you need to understand that Cavey worships Gary Stern, Stern Pinball and ever designer they employ. Nothing you say will change his opinion
Nino, yes that TWD playfield has issues, but I think they are being magnified as it is Greg's game
-
I will post in this thread rather than clutter up the KISS thread
People, you need to understand that Cavey worships Gary Stern, Stern Pinball and ever designer they employ. Nothing you say will change his opinion
Nino, yes that TWD playfield has issues, but I think they are being magnified as it is Greg's game
Possibly, but the two other TWD pins I've seen have had over 10 times the play and look nothing like the surface of the moon. This game needs to be cleaned and go to it's new home, but it is not presentable. Many KISS fans are looking at buying their first NIB KISS, and when I show them TWD LE as an example of what to expect, they ask about the playfield. So the assumption that it is "normal" will simply cost Stern sales. I have two KISS fans waiting on the outcome of the warranty claim, so it is in stern's / AMD's best interests to look after customers. This is a real test for Stern.
I've had my clearcoat expert look over the game and his view is that the clearcoat appears to be a "mist coat" and then ONE "very thin coat". So technically, I know the problem is a wafer thin clear. Not acceptable to the logical thinker that forks out $12,000.
-
I will post in this thread rather than clutter up the KISS thread
People, you need to understand that Cavey worships Gary Stern, Stern Pinball and ever designer they employ. Nothing you say will change his opinion
Nino, yes that TWD playfield has issues, but I think they are being magnified as it is Greg's game
You are right with the 2nd sentence Pete, & my experience has been so much more enjoyable with him on ignore. I cant recommend it highly enough. However, when a number of us are wondering about the Stern playfields, then saying something about how they never wear doesn't help other members (yes, sigh, I can still see it when somebody quotes him). I'm far far from expert & not in the trade so I need information from others to help me decide if I should buy a 2nd playfield. Nino's TWD playfield looks bad, really bad, so I'm also interested to see if Stern does what I think is the right thing in this situation. I could be the next customer with the same issue. Important thread for AP members who wish to discuss the issue openly.
-
I think the best thing to do is to assume that opinions are often based on personal preference or prejudice, and do not necessarily reflect the facts. They are not the best evidence, although of course sometimes useful.
On the other hand, Strangeways has carried out some actual tests, and is not here to convince others of an opinion, but to show us the evidence of the damage and of his test results and Stern's response to the issues.
Strangeways is an expert and has consulted experts, so debating that the damage can't exist is really not the way forward.
-
For anyone who is interested the Kiss pinball at Timezone now has a few small dimples appearing mid playfield to the left. Too small to photograph.
I can't remember who mention that their ACDC actually smoothed out over time but there could be something in that. If you check out the Ironman next to Kiss at Timezone it looks fairly smooth, almost like all the dimples have joined together and other than needing a clean it plays quite nice.
-
For anyone who is interested the Kiss pinball at Timezone now has a few small dimples appearing mid playfield to the left. Too small to photograph.
I can't remember who mention that their ACDC actually smoothed out over time but there could be something in that. If you check out the Ironman next to Kiss at Timezone it looks fairly smooth, almost like all the dimples have joined together and other than needing a clean it plays quite nice.
... lots of small dimples fixing itself over time, sounds like the clearcoat is soft. Nino's issue sound like its to thin. I think there are two things at play here, as Nino suggests. Nino's TWD sounds like it had a production problem - somebody probably forgot to apply the second coat to it!
-
Sorry guys but this thing about the dimples ironing themselves out as a solution is as good as waiting for wife's tits to sag enough so the wrinkles on her face disappear. Simply ridiculous
-
Sorry guys but this thing about the dimples ironing themselves out as a solution is as good as waiting for wife's tits to sag enough so the wrinkles on her face disappear. Simply ridiculous
I do like the analogy though...
-
I will post in this thread rather than clutter up the KISS thread
People, you need to understand that Cavey worships Gary Stern, Stern Pinball and ever designer they employ. Nothing you say will change his opinion
Nino, yes that TWD playfield has issues, but I think they are being magnified as it is Greg's game
You are right with the 2nd sentence Pete, & my experience has been so much more enjoyable with him on ignore. I cant recommend it highly enough. However, when a number of us are wondering about the Stern playfields, then saying something about how they never wear doesn't help other members (yes, sigh, I can still see it when somebody quotes him). I'm far far from expert & not in the trade so I need information from others to help me decide if I should buy a 2nd playfield. Nino's TWD playfield looks bad, really bad, so I'm also interested to see if Stern does what I think is the right thing in this situation. I could be the next customer with the same issue. Important thread for AP members who wish to discuss the issue openly.
Stop being nasty and spiteful and grow up.
Keep your discriminatory personal opinions to yourself.
-
I will post in this thread rather than clutter up the KISS thread
People, you need to understand that Cavey worships Gary Stern, Stern Pinball and ever designer they employ. Nothing you say will change his opinion
Nino, yes that TWD playfield has issues, but I think they are being magnified as it is Greg's game
You are completely correct Pete.
Isn't it nice we live in a democracy and we are all free to worship or like anyone we want.
I agree some Stern playfields of late have dimples and it is a problem for some owners.
That's why I said before people should ask Stern for advice on this technical issue.
-
Sorry guys but this thing about the dimples ironing themselves out as a solution is as good as waiting for wife's tits to sag enough so the wrinkles on her face disappear. Simply ridiculous
I do like the analogy though...
Almost Shakespearean *%* - but easier to understand.
-
Sorry guys but this thing about the dimples ironing themselves out as a solution is as good as waiting for wife's tits to sag enough so the wrinkles on her face disappear. Simply ridiculous
Best analogy ever.......... @@* @@* @@*
-
Sorry guys but this thing about the dimples ironing themselves out as a solution is as good as waiting for wife's tits to sag enough so the wrinkles on her face disappear. Simply ridiculous
I concur - I don't buy the dimples will level out over time. That's just shoving the problem under the carpet with a lame excuse. Try telling that to prospective customers that want to see how a NIB game presents itself after 100 games.
I've passed on the photos to Joe, who will pass them on to AMD. I will now contact Stern directly. I think there will be a favorable outcome. I can't purchase a second KISS LE playfield at this point in time as Stern allocate a percentage of playfields for warranty claims. Once that period has expired, I will order one.
Just to keep this in context and perspective. I was ALWAYS going to buy a second KISS LE playfield to be sent to HRP for a clearcoat. I'm not buying a second KISS LE playfield due to TWD LE issues.
-
I can't purchase a second KISS LE playfield at this point in time as Stern allocate a percentage of playfields for warranty claims.
That:about says it all!
-
This is a ST pro with PF issues that must of slipped through the cracks somewhere along the production line, In the end PF is getting replaced under Warranty,
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/beat-up-st-wow#post-2526824
-
This is a ST pro with PF issues that must of slipped through the cracks somewhere along the production line, In the end PF is getting replaced under Warranty,
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/beat-up-st-wow#post-2526824
It was passed through QA. Clearcoat is not the issue - as it appears to not have one. QA is the problem. This kind of publicity only causes harm - should never have happened.
-
yeah that one was a shocker
-
$$( Glad it was replaced.
-
yeah that one was a shocker
Yes mate a shocker, hopefully some good will come out of it.
-
here is a shot of the LE playfield showing the 7 layers and that top layer is very thin and probably of the quality ply which shouldn't make a difference but I think the next layer down is probably the critical one either being soft or medium or hard - hard being the desired.
-
OK, here is some more evidence i believe the factory process has some serious issues on quality control.
My recently acquired Hulk LE (which i am loving) is pretty nasty in terms of dimples
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz299/rjmilla/IMG_6918_zpstcvfiktp.jpg) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/rjmilla/media/IMG_6918_zpstcvfiktp.jpg.html)
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz299/rjmilla/IMG_6922_zpsu6hrtkf3.jpg) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/rjmilla/media/IMG_6922_zpsu6hrtkf3.jpg.html)
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz299/rjmilla/IMG_6919_zpsohtqniql.jpg) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/rjmilla/media/IMG_6919_zpsohtqniql.jpg.html)
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz299/rjmilla/IMG_6920_zps2ewdwepy.jpg) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/rjmilla/media/IMG_6920_zps2ewdwepy.jpg.html)
I think it probably equals or rivals the Walking Dead in previous posts
I am not against Stern machines, in fact i have more Sterns in my current collection than other brands, and love playing them. Just had a good look over LOTR, and it is perfect. However, it is a serious issue i reckon Stern needs to address - as it is not on every machine - therefore it must be a process issue in the factory
I would welcome any feedback from Stern on how this issue could be addressed as it is pretty ordinary for a recent machine, or due to the extreme nature of the dimpling on my playfield, whether it be considered a factory defect?
-
Not nice
-
That's bizarre.. looks pretty deep.
-
That Hulk LE playfield is a shocker!
Just had another good look at mine and it only has a few minute dimples.
Must be random cases???
-
Had the crew from HRP down during the week and we spent some time looking at the dimpling issue. The immediate reaction was that "it is not right". As with all restorer's that have seen TWD LE - None of us could put our name on such a poor clearcoat. We agree that the playfield would have to be re cleared if either HRP or APR was responsible for such a bad job.
At this point, we tried a couple of tests, and one really took us by surprise. As mentioned earlier in this thread, to create a dimple on a clearcoat is s simple as rolling a ball off the flipper bat. Drop the ball from a height of two or three flipper bats (the height of a ramp), and you have a crater. The idea was to rule out the wood. So we reverse the playfield and exposed the underside of the playfield. We picked a spot and attempted to create a dimple. Didn't happen. We could not create a dimple. The wood was too strong. The only way to create a dimple was to almost "throw" the ball on the underside on the playfield.
From this simple test - we ruled out the wood. The only possible exception - One side of the timber is "pressed" to be harder - like the topmost ply is more compressed than the underside. THEN - The timber is "flipper" and the art is screened to the wrong side. This is a possible theory. There is no doubt that one side of this playfield appears to be harder. This is the ONLY reason to point to the wood being "too soft".
Back to the topside - This title has a very busy and colorful playfield. The possibility that because there are so many colours and "screenprinting" passes, that the playfield simply has too much colour layers. This would make the paint soft. So if the playfield wood is rock hard, then the paint layers allow dimpling. But this can be protected by a reasonable clearcoat.
Enough experts that apply clearcoats to playfields arrive at the same conclusion. The clearcoat is too thin, uneven in patches and is "too soft". It appears that the factory clearcoat material is of a very poor standard and not applied correctly. Again, a simple test on a freshly clearcoated playfield proves this is the case. A ST TNG with a professional clearcoat was used as a test. The only way to create the smaller dimples was to drop the ball from the height of three flipper bats. Then four flipper bats then five. We now have three visible tiny dimples than can only been seen while holding the playfield up to the light. We placed the playfield aside for 30 minutes. We reviewed the playfield and looked as hard as we could and only found 1 dimple that was slightly visible. The others had "self healed". These playfields will dimple over time, but never as badly as what we see on some Stern playfields.
It seems the dimpling issues can easily be addressed by Stern in the factory. No one should be accepting the "just play the damn thing and it will all blend in". That might have applied to the 5% of home users. But that 5% is now 20%. Next year 50%, the year after 80%. Imagine buying a $500,000 Ferrari and finding out that the auto body clear was thin and of poor quality. You go back to the dealership and you are told "keep driving down dirt roads - it will all blend in and level out".. I guess that's the first and last Ferrari that owner will buy.
The theory is that an extra $50 of material - or a better clearcoat product + one or two more passes under the gun - and extra 5 minutes on the line - could remedy this situation - or at least prevent NIB $11,000 machines from having moonscapes. That's the bottom line.
We invite Stern to send us two playfields and we can provide a better solution ;
1 - Factory cleared playfield. We will test the dimpling and then re clear using a superior product that is used on all HRP and APR restorations. Then run the same tests.
1 - Factory uncleared playfield. We will clear using a superior product and then run the same tests.
Now moving forward - if Stern believe this is all just a whinging pinhead with an axe to grind, I'd like to point out the following - I've spoken to TWO pinball manufacturers who are going to be using the same clearcoat approach as professional restorers. Clearly, this is now the acceptable standard.
Without a doubt, dimpling is part of EVERY game with a ball flaying around off ramps etc etc.. Steel ball VS wood = Steel ball wins. We all know that. We need to find a way to minimize this effect on $10,000 pinball machines. If it was done 20 years ago, it should be able to be achieved in 2015.
-
The artwork isn't screen printed... its digitally printed on a white background. You can tell this by looking at the shading. A digital print will make many pass overs and place small dots where colour is needed. Go to a shade out and the dots become less. The eye then blends these in so long as it is from a distance. Most machines don't print white.. they are CMYK and print OVER a flat white sheet.
You can clearly see this on the highlighted area and also how the print head passed horizontally over the white substrate.
(http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr243/retropin/Stern%20pf%20shade_zpsuzdvehzn.jpg)
So.. this then begs another question... is it printed direct to the timber...or... is it printed to a vinyl and then applied?
If to a vinyl, then it may be the vinyl substrate that is getting dented... if direct to timber, then it must be the timber.
The CC is quite thin and the dimples look to go beyond the depth of that.
Anyone with a Stern able to take a pic of the PF edge?... If you see a thin white line at the very top where the artwork is then you may well have yourself a digital print to vinyl that is applied as the artwork.
-
These are a couple of quick (rough) snaps taken of my MetPro playfield.
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/metpropf_zpsajcvgkcr.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/metpropf_zpsajcvgkcr.jpg.html)
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/metpropf-4_zpsnxjsqpz0.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/metpropf-4_zpsnxjsqpz0.jpg.html)
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w444/martyjay/Aussiepinball/metpropf-2_zpsrthpp3iz.jpg) (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/martyjay/media/Aussiepinball/metpropf-2_zpsrthpp3iz.jpg.html)
-
Nino, I think there's no doubt whatsoever the TWD clear is "too soft". It could be an incorrect mix - if this happens in a sense it never really "cures". Was just wondering if there is a way to measure the thickness of the clear scientifically (it is done on cars to check for panel work - but I assume this requires a metal rather than wood base).
-
Nino, I think there's no doubt whatsoever the TWD clear is "too soft". It could be an incorrect mix - if this happens in a sense it never really "cures". Was just wondering if there is a way to measure the thickness of the clear scientifically (it is done on cars to check for panel work - but I assume this requires a metal rather than wood base).
It could be the mix or the product itself. If Stern went down the path of a ceramic clear, they would not have these issues. This is a viable and constructive outcome.
We are awaiting Stern / AMD's response. They are aware of the issue.
-
just to add here are a few issues after 2900 to 4000 plays
met - 2900 plays
kiss - 3000 plays
and a jjp woz after 4000 plays
so clear coat is a factor and so seems the direct printing like woz as apparently has big chucks chipping off on not just the odd machine.
-
Yiks!
For the money people fork out for these I'd expect a hell of a lot better. Doesn't make me want to rush out for a NIB anytime soon.
-
Yep I'm out
-
Of course we are only seeing the bad playfields. There could be a much higher percentage of playfields without wear.
MET - That's a factory defect. Looks like no clear
KISS - I'm seeing mylar to the left, right and front of the scoop hole. I'm also seeing dimples in the mylar to the right. If there are dimples in the mylar, it almost proves my theory that the hardened layer of ply is the underside. how you can get a dimple through mylar, clear, print and then wood is baffling.
WOZ - That's a factory defect. Maybe typical of 40,000 or 400,000 games. Not even a Bally / Williams would have that much wear unless it was neglected or a defect.
What is great is that the other manufacturers can see what is not accepted (any longer). Gone are the days of "blending in" and "oh, thats normal for a new pinball". If I was paying $3000, I'd accept it. But we are being asked to pay over $10,000 for these games. You can get a professionally cleared ceramic clearcoat for under $1000.
I'm looking forward to Stern's advice on TWD LE, and their findings on the dimpling issues.
But the comment Rob makes is getting louder - "I'm out" will be something Stern won't want to hear - people will respond with their wallets.
-
Are people cleaning their balls properly ? (Pinballs).
Are people cleaning the playfields properly ?
Even the games that are flogged to death at Timezone with a lot more plays than mentioned above have never shown these issues.
-
Stern are providing games with pre-dirtied balls and playfields now?
-
Are people cleaning their balls properly ? (Pinballs).
Are people cleaning the playfields properly ?
Even the games that are flogged to death at Timezone with a lot more plays than mentioned above have never shown these issues.
Have you read this thread in its entirety ? The problem is with the clearcoat process - has nothing to do with the ball selection. The factory balls provided in TWD LE were thrown in the bin and NEW polished balls were used. These same balls were used in ALL testing.
No need to clean TWD LE. It simply has not had enough games and apart from the moonscape appearance, it looks brand new.
The "flogged" games prove the problem. This is the reason for the "hit and miss" in Stern's clearcoat process. "Unflogged" games look like they have had thousands of plays.
-
I can confirm the previous owners of the avengers pictured previously also very regularly cleaned the machine and replaced balls
-
Yikes alright. That mylared Kiss is a worry - surely it was dented then mylared? WOZ is crazy bad - MET too. It begs the qn - why are these so soft/vulnerable compared to bally/williams? Surely it's ply & clear-coat? These are too deep to be just clear. And is it a "planned obsolescence"? - ie Stern might want to sell playfields? I sure hope not.
-
I just heard a podcast on the weekend talking about the WOZ issue. It was a known defect to the printing process in the early machines.
The answer to the owner who was the podcast host was "send us $500 for a new playfield and do the play field swap over yourself". I'm sure they said it nicer than that, but the conclusion is the same.
!*!
...As a minimum JJP should have sent out a free playfield, but as it had just expired the two year warranty, that was the offer. JJP doesn't seem to understand 'latent defect' laws.
Anyone can get the production wrong. The test of a good company is how they deal with the issue. I'm keen to see how Stern respond to TWD LE problem. I'd amazed if they didn't send out a free playfield at their cost.
-
I just heard a podcast on the weekend talking about the WOZ issue. It was a known defect to the printing process in the early machines.
The answer to the owner who was the podcast host was "send us $500 for a new playfield and do the play field swap over yourself". I'm sure they said it nicer than that, but the conclusion is the same.
!*!
...As a minimum JJP should have sent out a free playfield, but as it had just expired the two year warranty, that was the offer. JJP doesn't seem to understand 'latent defect' laws.
Anyone can get the production wrong. The test of a good company is how they deal with the issue. I'm keen to see how Stern respond to TWD LE problem. I'd amazed if they didn't send out a free playfield at their cost.
We are well advanced down that path. Joe from "Kids Just Wanna Have Fun" has seen TWD LE and he has already suggested several options for me - which have been VERY positive. That's a level of customer service that is exceptional. This issue has been moved up the chain - that is 100%.
-
I just heard a podcast on the weekend talking about the WOZ issue. It was a known defect to the printing process in the early machines.
The answer to the owner who was the podcast host was "send us $500 for a new playfield and do the play field swap over yourself". I'm sure they said it nicer than that, but the conclusion is the same.
!*!
...As a minimum JJP should have sent out a free playfield, but as it had just expired the two year warranty, that was the offer. JJP doesn't seem to understand 'latent defect' laws.
Anyone can get the production wrong. The test of a good company is how they deal with the issue. I'm keen to see how Stern respond to TWD LE problem. I'd amazed if they didn't send out a free playfield at their cost.
jeez that was big of them. I suppose they could have asked for $1000. Really pay and do the work....hmmmmmm........like I said, I'm out
-
I have to say I was out on the JJP business model along time before seeing these pictures but JJP customer service stories like those above just serve as a reminder as to why I wouldn't bother with them.
-
I have to say I was out on the JJP business model along time before seeing these pictures but JJP customer service stories like those above just serve as a reminder as to why I wouldn't bother with them.
I thought about the hobbit, but figured I have a problem playing the new games trying to follow the lit up inserts, woz just has a shit load of lights on all the time for no reason. And then by the time it gets released in 2055 I probably would have lost interest in pinball......namely I'd be dead &^&
-
The answer is yes Nino.
What I was meaning , is the Metallica a sited game that's had the original balls from day one etc (as apprised to chucking the originals after a short time and replacing the ball sets often.
You can have the best clear job in the world but not changing balls for say 4000 games is going to add to playfields wear. Also, on the Metallica game, that magnet looks to have overheated off and on over many months which has also farked up the playfields.
I think it's good all pinball makers are now getting this feedback because we all want the best product for our money.
If any of the pin u builders increase quality assurance it's a win win for all. No argument here.
When's your Kiss arriving Nino.
Are u doing a in boxing video please !
-
Also I had an idea from left field, a year or two ago only, all playfields on most games were can descent bulbs which all all know get n stay hot compared to a game full of no heat LEDs.
Could the games full of Std bulbs be getting a overall playfields heating and extra curing effect from the heated std globes ?
Is this a reason why dimpling seems to be mostly limited to the newest games that are now ALL LEDs ?
Goodbye heat, goodbye extra heat n curing help to the clearcoat on non can descent bulb games ?
Any thoughts ?
-
We all know that Stern gives average balls with the game but you wouldn't think it would do this sort of damage in only a few thousand games. When I had my IM it clocked up around the 5000 games and was very nice though cleaned and a quick polish every 6 months and it had 2 magnets. I would have to agree with Nino that the clear coat is so thin more recently and not holding up but still think they are also using softer timber and / or have routed the playfield on the wrong side being the softer side up and then progressed to be printed on the wrong side.
It does make you wonder those early shots of the first 20 kiss pro's looked to have a nice clear coat and went out for testing but then production started and quality dropped back to average / sub standard if dimples and issues are being noticed.
Curious Pinball God, what was the details about the JJP early printing process issues, curious as that is when Spookie's Charlie was doing them at his old work wasn't it??? Was the timber not prepared properly for the printing process ???? as it appears that big chucks of paint are coming off with the wood being clean underneath.
-
Sorry Swinks, but you may be referring to something Brunswick Brawler was on about.
-
Sorry Swinks, but you may be referring to something Brunswick Brawler was on about.
Pinball God,
Yes I think Swinks intended question for me...
Swinks,
Listen to the One and Done Pinball Podcast episode 41, starting at about 1hr 20m into the podcast. They do describe chucks of paint coming off near the bumpers, just as the photo shows (note it is near a bumper).
I think the podcast did say that the 'known early issue' was due to the direct printing, but I can't recall.
I do remember that the direct printing of the cabinets was done by the company Charlie Emery [spooky pinball] was working for at the time. I don't know if that included printing of the play fields.
I forgot to add that JJP also offered a decal and mylar to be placed over the damaged area!
-
sorry PG you are correct, Q was meant for BB...
cheers for the answer BB, and seem to remember that they were doing playfields though I could be wrong. I suppose we will start to see any issues from the direct printing process now after a few years of being introduced with heavy play.
-
The problem apparently came out early on. The podcaster suggested that a pinball show sale that JJP had some time ago for where the WOZ playfields were being sold for $100 (i think), was likely JJP's way of to get rid of affected stock. The affected playfields would be fine if hung up as a display piece.
Sounds like JJP know exactly what series of WOZs are affected. The podcaster has WOZ LE #11. listen to the podcast - they did say something about the playfields being 'printed' - I'm just not sure if they still are being done that way, with that process being fixed.
-
Chunks of paint coming off in high wear areas ( around bumpers etc) is not a fault of the direct printing... that wouldn't be an issue. Its a fault of the prep on the timber. Any painting to any substrate requires appropriate preparation... the lower or "primed" area is there to create a "bite" into the timber. Effectively its grips to the surface and INTO the fibres of the wood itself. On top of this, you can do whatever you want. But if this is not done correctly, then no matter what picture is present or how its processed, the ink/paint will just not stay on the timber when under any stress.
Basics of painting ANYTHING!
Onto Stern and their faulty clear coat issues and its pretty much the same story. In all honesty, anyone can learn to CC... THOUSANDS of people do this task every day... its not rocket science but there are rules of application that have to be adhered to... wander from these and you may well be in strife.
Both JJP and Stern have just failed to stick to the basic rules of application.. chances are its in a quest for profits and an attempt to see just how far you can scale back a process.
Its all so bloody flakey... if you cant be arsed to do something properly, then don't bloody do it.
The attitude of there being only 1 real manufacturer and we are grateful for anything that is thrown our way just feeds the lack of care taken to produce a solid product.
-
Toyota is a very experienced company worth billions and they have the best staff n engineers n processes in the world BUT they have recalls because Humans make mistakes and it's only after the mistakes are fed back to the company by the public things get fixed etc etc. Always been the way.
It's the same with our beloved pinball industry. They learn by mistakes.
Once upon a time, in any industry, things were beautifully handcrafted and nothing was mass produced.
Alas, times have changed for both the good n bad.
I have a friend who lives in the USA and he went last week to the Stern factory and apparently all playfields are being closely checked n quality issues have already been addressed. He says he was told that no one who has received a brand new Kiss has had an issue with dimpling or clearcoat issues.
I haven't seen any photos of a Kiss with a clearcoat issue posted anywhere at all so far.
Has anyone on here got any photos or proof of a Kiss machine with dimples or clearcoat issues of a USA or Aussie delivered public game that wasn't a test mule or early prototype ?
-
2nd page of this thread showed dimples in the glare spot and these were the extra glossy / shiny ones. yes early ones but sure we will see some soon.
-
Both JJP and Stern have just failed to stick to the basic rules of application.. chances are its in a quest for profits and an attempt to see just how far you can scale back a process.
....before the end consumer makes enough noise and Stern inevitably go into damage control with some vague Facebook posts purporting to address the problem. #@#
2nd page of this thread showed dimples in the glare spot and these were the extra glossy / shiny ones. yes early ones but sure we will see some soon.
Good informative pic swinks based on direct evidence. ^^^
-
I was really looking for anything Since the start of the thread, meaning anything over n above that one machine.
Has anyone looked at the new Kiss machine at Pizza n Pinball that was delivered on Facebook post the other day here in Australia. Anyone taken photos of that one yet ?
-
Car analogy is ok but haven't pf's been produced for eons now. Especially stern now being in the biz for so long. I think a car co would be broke if the brakes fail on 4-5 models and nothing done. Lucky pinball doesn't kill you that easily
-
Every pinball machine that has ever had a flyball will have dimples. KISS will have dimples. The real question is - How can we minimize this effect ?
Improving the clearcoat product and process. %$%
-
I have a left field answer for the fly ball and dimpling situation.
Why do pinballs have to stay silver and steel which is damaging to wood.
A modern way to fix the issue could be to go with the rubber coated glow balls that were on the 1999 version of Segas
Viper Night Driving machine.
No dimples on my Viper machine and it plays better with the glow balls (rubber coated) which weigh less than a Std steel pinball. Maybe pinball manufacturers could do both to minimise dimples cause steel n wood don't really mix ? .... Food for thought ?
-
Every pinball machine that has ever had a flyball will have dimples. KISS will have dimples. The real question is - How can we minimize this effect ?
Improving the clearcoat product and process. %$%
I only have one Stern, an Elvis which is over ten years old. I haven't checked the audits to see the number of plays, but there are no dimples at all, had a good look at it at the office today. Clearly something has changed, and needs to be addressed.
It will be interesting to see where Stern goes now that we know Stern is aware of this thread.
-
Just played a KISS pro on location (John Curtain Hotel, Carlton VIC).
The machine has been there just over one week. It is heavily dimpled, and the clear coat has a 'wavy' look to it in parts. Certainly no extra thick clearcoat. Looks like the normal clearcoat process.
-
I just wanted to add an update to this thread. Stern have taken on board my findings, and the opinions of those that have seen this game. I'm very pleased to advise that Stern are helping out in the short term and also they are focused on the long term durability of the clearcoat process. I'll update the thread when I can -as there are some hoops to go through - but I want to thank Joe from Kids Just Wanna Have Fun who has been immensely helpful to this point in time.
Suffice to say, this is not being brushed under the carpet. Quite the opposite *%*
-
That's good to hear they are listening. Hopefully they can follow through long term and make some changes to address it.
-
...
Anyone can get the production wrong. The test of a good company is how they deal with the issue.
...
I just wanted to add an update to this thread. Stern have taken on board my findings, and the opinions of those that have seen this game. I'm very pleased to advise that Stern are helping out in the short term and also they are focused on the long term durability of the clearcoat process. I'll update the thread when I can -as there are some hoops to go through - but I want to thank Joe from Kids Just Wanna Have Fun who has been immensely helpful to this point in time.
Suffice to say, this is not being brushed under the carpet. Quite the opposite *%*
...I'm pleased to hear that Stern responded exactly as I expect the leading pinball company to respond. ^^^
I'm looking forward to a 'shiny' future for Stern pinball machines! (geek humour again !^!)
-
I think this game needed a thicker clearcoat
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/TalesFromTheOutlane/worn%20ST_zpswm4jmy0r.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/TalesFromTheOutlane/media/worn%20ST_zpswm4jmy0r.jpg.html)
-
Looks like someone cleaned it with a harsh solevant.
I have seen spray n wipe ruin a playfield in the hands of a new pin u owner.
-
The dimples that people have been experiencing ( including some minor dimpling on my own pins ) have absolutely nothing to do with the thickness / hardness etc. of the clearcoat .
I recently pulled my Metallica apart for a clean and re-rubber . During that process I removed the magnet cores from both the Grave Marker area and Sparky . The tops of these magnet cores were both dimpled in exactly the same pattern as the playfields can be . I since machined them off nice and flat ready for re-install .
If the problem was something to do with the thickness / hardness / cure time of the clear coat , or even the softness of the plywood used for the playfield , then how would you explain the exact problem occurring on top of a metal magnet core which is not covered by clear coat and is made of steel .
I do have some photos but they are on the camera at work . I'll upload them once I get them .
-
I think this game needed a thicker clearcoat
Must have been sited at Time Zone Gold Coast. :lol 12,000 game audits per week and counting!
Stern's new improved clearcoat will be a sure fire winner, though. How can you complain about playfield wear if you can't see the playfield.
-
In conjunction with HRP, we have put forward a suggested solution with Stern (at THE highest level). This is based on factual evidence we have gathered and also learning from Stern their current methods of playfield protection.
As part of any findings, there is no point in informing stern of the issues unless you have a constructive suggestion to assist in improving the process. I can say Stern have listened to what we have put forward and the ball is in their court. We hope to work with their R&D staff in the near future to share knowledge and provide a practical alternative.
We are encouraged by the willingness to improve this area of their production process.
This was never the case of whinging about the playfields and then being ignored. The people I recently spoke to are the decision makers, who were more than just interested to hear an opinion. Hopefully, the next post to the story will be more "meat and potatoes". Suffice to say - Stern ARE listening.
-
As promised here are the photos of the magnet cores from my Metallica . You can see that the same dimpling is evident on top of the steel cores . If anyone thinks that the dimpling is caused by soft / inferior clearcoat thickness or quality , or the quality of the playfield timber then how would you explain the same dimpling on top of these steel posts .
No amount or quality of clearcoat is ever going to be harder than a STEEL post .. !@#
-
Maybe stern need to use softer balls !@# . The magnet core is quite soft in the scheme of things all metal. I machined some flat with ease, not stainless steel etc
-
Three months down the track and Stern have no interest in taking onboard our findings. Seems they are happy with outsourcing their playfields using wafer thin 15 year old technology.
My personal KISS LE and a KISS / TWD PRO have minimal issues compared to TWD LE - which is a complete disaster. The manufacturing process needs a serious review - which will never happen.
-
a soft metal has to be used on the magnet centers, if a hard metal is used then it will become permanently magnetized
-
a soft metal has to be used on the magnet centers, if a hard metal is used then it will become permanently magnetized
I agree!
-
that's a shame Nino but not surprising.
I saw pictures when the last Chicago Expo was on of Cicago gaming doing the playfields and they are doing the MMR playfields as well.
http://aussiepinball.com/index.php?topic=14221.0
-
that's a shame Nino but not surprising.
I saw pictures when the last Chicago Expo was on of Cicago gaming doing the playfields and they are doing the MMR playfields as well.
http://aussiepinball.com/index.php?topic=14221.0
Since this story unfolded, I've checked over 20 Sterns and the problem is definitely a combination of poor product and / or poor application. Facts are that every single Stern playfield (in fact all DMD manufacturers) have some degree of dimpling. Stern themselves have no real issue with this, and confirm that dimpling will always happen on a played machine.
My KISS LE - has maybe a dozen dimples - but is still like a sheet of glass.
KISS PRO that was used in a comp - same
TWD PRO that was picked up yesterday - same
We are going to approach Stern one last time to see if they are still interested. At least we tried !
-
Did u get your TWD LE playfield replacement Nino ?
-
Did u get your TWD LE playfield replacement Nino ?
Stern and AMD agreed that the playfield in TWD LE is defective and was replaced under warranty. I have to replace it at my cost.
The replacement playfield was worse than the one currently in the game. Placed next to a CPR and Mirco playfield, it looked like the clear was applied just as the gun was running out of clear, or the clear was not mixed correctly. It will be sent to HRP to be cleared professionally. The "good" thing about this is that we are 100% confident either the clearcoat process itself is flawed, or there is no QA at all on ALL playfields that leave Churchill's ( or whatever amateur contractor is attempting to clearcoat playfields).
We are grateful that we received a replacement playfield. Stern and AMD were very professional with the replacement process. The replacement playfied was always going to HRP regardless of the condition of the factory clear.
Greg bought second playfields for ALL his games - Stern, Bally Williams etc..
-
Glad to hear you have it sorted.
Do u have to return the original playfield or can u sell it ?
I wanted to buy a spare playfield for TWDead to make a really cool coffee table.
But I am betting they want the original back.
-
Glad to hear you have it sorted.
Do u have to return the original playfield or can u sell it ?
I wanted to buy a spare playfield for TWDead to make a really cool coffee table.
But I am betting they want the original back.
AMD / Stern customer service was brilliant.
I was not asked to return the playfield, and considering a swap of any playfield would have a cost of close to $1,000, I'd be surprised if they wanted the old one back. It will be repaired and re cleared.
It IS sorted as far as I'm concerned - but it cost Stern the sale of 5 KISS Premiums. An isolated case for sure, but customer confidence (first time buyers) were unimpressed with the quality of the clearcoat on NIB games.
Having said that, my KISS LE is holding up well after 300 games. Played it for 2 hours last night.
-
Considering a NIB Stern is a considerable purchase it is disappoint that product quality control is seriously lacking.
Does Stern have complete disdain for its customer base?
-
I am not sure why people who were interested in KISS games didn't go ahead with a purchase when a one off case with a Walking Dead title really had little to do with KISS playfields.....
If anything, this thread proves Stern stands behind its product & warranty. That should entice customer confidence, not the opposite.
People getting scared off buying brand new in box Sterns seems to be a massive over reaction to a one percent or less problem if it's even that. I have more than 6 Sterns and still not a single issue.
I note, I haven't seen any other negative feedback from anyone else who has purchased any of the other recent titles.
Still seems to be very few & far between.
-
@CoT
Maybe they are not pinheads
Maybe they don't want to maybe do a playfield swap
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out
Customers, who know what crazy things gothrough their minds
-
They didn't go ahead with the Premium purchases because they didn't want to risk a $10K pinball machine looking like TWD LE playfield. It is not an isolated case. Proof in my experience is the replacement playfield - that is even worse than the playfield in the game. These are the facts. Stern's solution to the problem was for ME to replace their defective playfield with an even worse playfield ? Instead of Stern selling 4-5 KISS Premiums, APR have been asked to restore their Bally KISS games (3 games). Not the outcome we were hoping for.
It is like handing over a paint tin to a Ferrari owner and asking him to repaint his NEW car because the paint is flaking ?
Not a massive reaction at all. A educated decision based on the facts before them. In the past 6 months we have had several collectors ask to trade in their late model Sterns for fully restored machines. It is an alarming trend.
Personally "I" did everything I could to promote sales of KISS games to friends and KISS fans. We pinball people are the ones in the bubble, accepting QA issues. When someone "outside" views what we assume is "normal", we are the ones that need the reality check. That's why APR and HRP approached Stern with a solution (at our cost). The reply was ;
:tumble:
But other manufacturers are listening intently.
My KISS LE is STILL perfect from a playfield point of view - it is still a sheet of glass with 6-10 dimples after 500 games. The lack of code for this game is very annoying. But I digress..
-
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out
I think consumer laws cover that don't they?
If you pay for an item that costs that much the impression is it is going to well and truly outlast the warranty.
If you had a machine with low plays and the playfield was stuffed, you should have recourse for a full replacement, not a do it yourself replacement.
-
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out
I think consumer laws cover that don't they?
If you pay for an item that costs that much the impression is it is going to well and truly outlast the warranty.
If you had a machine with low plays and the playfield was stuffed, you should have recourse for a full replacement, not a do it yourself replacement.
Sounds about right -
Section 54(2) of the Australian Consumer Law:
Goods are of acceptable quality if they are as:
(a) fit for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly supplied; and
(b) acceptable in appearance and finish; and
(c) free from defects; and
(d) safe; and
(e) durable;
as a reasonable consumer fully acquainted with the state and condition of the goods (including any hidden defects of the goods), would regard as acceptable having regard to the matters in subsection (3).
(3) The matters for the purposes of subsection (2) are:
(a) the nature of the goods; and
(b) the price of the goods (if relevant); and
(c) any statements made about the goods on any packaging or label on the goods; and
(d) any representation made about the goods by the supplier or manufacturer of the goods; and
(e) any other relevant circumstances relating to the supply of the goods.
Goods have to be “durable” particularly in light of the price. A consumer would reasonably expect a $10K game to be reasonably durable. This would have to be balanced against "(a) the nature of the goods" as it is a ball rolling on a wooden playfield, but given other manufacturers now and historically have done better....
-
I think consumer laws cover that don't they?
If you pay for an item that costs that much the impression is it is going to well and truly outlast the warranty.
If you had a machine with low plays and the playfield was stuffed, you should have recourse for a full replacement, not a do it yourself replacement.
Correct. Now compare that to Stern's factory warranty which specifically excludes every other part besides the pcb and displays.
STERN PINBALL INC. SELLER WARRANTS ONLY TO THE INITIAL PURCHASER OF ITS
PRODUCTS THAT THE ITEMS LISTED BELOW ARE FREE FROM DEFECTS IN MATERIAL
AND WORKMANSHIP UNDER NORMAL USE AND SERVICE FOR THE WARRANTY PERIOD
SPECIFIED; WARRANTY PERIODS ARE EFFECTIVE FROM THE INITIAL DATE OF SHIPMENT
FROM SELLER TO DISTRIBUTOR.
1. PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARDS AND GAME LOGIC : TWO (2) MONTHS (60 DAYS)
2. DOT MATRIX DISPLAY BOARDS: NINE (9) MONTHS
NO OTHER PARTS OF SELLER'S PRODUCT ARE WARRANTED. SELLER'S SOLE LIABILITY
SHALL BE AT ITS OPTION TO REPAIR OR REPLACE PRODUCTS WHICH ARE RETURNED
TO SELLER DURING THE WARRANTY PERIODS SPECIFIED PROVIDED.
It is like handing over a paint tin to a Ferrari owner and asking him to repaint his NEW car because the paint is flaking ?
Stern's factory warranty is 60 days from the date it leaves the factory for PCBs and game logic only, plus 9 months for the display , Ferrari's is 7 years which covers the entire vehicle with the customer option to extend that to 12 years from the date of first registration.
Yep, Stern stands by their product alright.
We pinball people are the ones in the bubble, accepting QA issues. When someone "outside" views what we assume is "normal", we are the ones that need the reality check.
Amen. Too many individuals involved in the pinball hobby in Australia go through life with this solipsistic mentality that because it hasn't happened to them personally then by extension of erroneous logic it must be incorrect. Perhaps if less time was spent online with only themselves for social interaction it would see a vast improvement in their attitude towards how they consider the opinions and experiences of others, but would also no doubt see an improvement to their own life circumstances.
That's why APR and HRP approached Stern with a solution (at our cost). The reply was ;
:tumble:
The only way to effect change is for the customer base to vote with their wallets, but whilst people are seemingly happy to pay a $4k plus jump (I remember not so long ago when it was a $2k price differential between Pro/LE) for a numbered plaque plus one extra mechanised toy with some extra flashing lights why would they change their internal manufacturing processes?
Little wonder though that consumers are turning to 20 year old restored machines.
-
Pinsanity, you will find that Australian consumer law overrides what is written in the back of a stern manual
All it will take is one disgruntled NIB buyer
-
Pinsanity, you will find that Australian consumer law overrides what is written in the back of a stern manual
All it will take is one disgruntled NIB buyer
I am aware of the relevant sections of the current domestic ACL legislation and its precedence over the warranty of a foreign manufacturer, however I was juxtaposing the two in order to reinforce a point regarding Stern's sincerity as to "standing by its products/warranty".
-
What I don't get, is why some people fawn over the manufacturers, it's the same on Pinside and other forums. If the product isn't good quality then the customers has every right to complain and ask for the issue to be rectified. It's that simple. Having to swap out a playfield of all its components is just not right, sure it's a solution that Stern and Nino settled on, but it's just not right and could be argued sets a precedence. If Stern and other manufactures can get away with this sort of treatment, what onus is there for them to do anything over and above that??
Once upon a time, on the rare occasion there was major playfield defects that couldn't be swapped out easily, the old time manufacturers would send NOS wired playfields out and ask the operator to swap their defective playfield for the new one and the manufacturer/distributor would take the defective one back. Or a heavy discount was provided for their next purchase. Why would Stern do either of those things, when people accept less?? They can and would do more if pushed by their customers. Same as any business that wants to stay in business would do. If the penalty for poor playfield quality control was the expense of building and sending a replacement playfield, I'm sure they wouldn't cut corners in future!
Just my 2 cents on the whole affair, it pisses me off that Stern take their customers for granted.
-
I have many of moon craters on my recent purchase of a nib..
so nothing is going to change...
they just keep laughing at us...
It will be my first and last purchase of a NIB...
-
I read a thread on Facebook that a USA purchaser of a KISS pro kept complaining about the alinement Gene's head causing the ball to drain down the middle. After giving instructions to the owner several times to level the machine and rotate Gene's head, the person allegedly couldn't' get the ball to not drain. Stern gave him a full refund, even though in my opinion it wasn't warranted!
So better a company that warrants their product beyond their started warranty, than a company that provides great warranty but needs to be taken to court to follow through.
-
I read a thread on Facebook that a USA purchaser of a KISS pro kept complaining about the alinement Gene's head causing the ball to drain down the middle. After giving instructions to the owner several times to level the machine and rotate Gene's head, the person allegedly couldn't' get the ball to not drain. Stern gave him a full refund, even though in my opinion it wasn't warranted!
So better a company that warrants their product beyond their started warranty, than a company that provides great warranty but needs to be taken to court to follow through.
but even better would be a company that tests a game before releasing it to the public
I sometimes wonder how much play they give a whitewood before they put it into production
-
What I don't get, is why some people fawn over the manufacturers, it's the same on Pinside and other forums. If the product isn't good quality then the customers has every right to complain and ask for the issue to be rectified. It's that simple. Having to swap out a playfield of all its components is just not right, sure it's a solution that Stern and Nino settled on, but it's just not right and could be argued sets a precedence. If Stern and other manufactures can get away with this sort of treatment, what onus is there for them to do anything over and above that??
Once upon a time, on the rare occasion there was major playfield defects that couldn't be swapped out easily, the old time manufacturers would send NOS wired playfields out and ask the operator to swap their defective playfield for the new one and the manufacturer/distributor would take the defective one back. Or a heavy discount was provided for their next purchase. Why would Stern do either of those things, when people accept less?? They can and would do more if pushed by their customers. Same as any business that wants to stay in business would do. If the penalty for poor playfield quality control was the expense of building and sending a replacement playfield, I'm sure they wouldn't cut corners in future!
Just my 2 cents on the whole affair, it pisses me off that Stern take their customers for granted.
My situation was going to be unique right from the start. Thanks to Joe in WA and Michael at AMD, it was decided that I would receive a blank playfield as this is what I indicated I would prefer. I didn't want a populated playfield. Greg always had spare playfields (Stern, Bally Williams, Williams and Gottlieb) that he would have clearcoated and saved for a later date. The other thing that worried me was the history of poorly cleared Stern playfields. It has always been "hit and miss". So I wanted a blank from "day 1". I will have it cleared properly at HRP, then swap them out.
The option of delivering the machine to the local Stern dealer to swap out was never going to happen (from my perspective).
So my situation should never be presented to anyone unless they specifically asked for it to be a blank playfield. AMD and Joe were helpful in this regard.
Stern USA were also helpful in ensuring I was a happy customer. I even had a call from the boss, who was a very "down to earth" person and he wanted to hear everything I had to say. Unfortunately, the emails to Stern R&D have not progressed, but I had "my say", and I know from other manufacturer's, that Stern was definitely interested in starting to look at newer technologies. It has hit a brick wall, but I'm going to try again in the New Year.
It is an enigma - something so bloody easy to fix at the manufacturing level - and these issues would be minimized. There would be no need to store surplus playfields for warranty claims. It is frustrating, because I know HOW to fix this - it is no big "trade secret". But how do you get their attention long enough for them to bend ? My LE is bloody perfect - I love it - but I don't want to sound like a whinger.So frustrating.
-
@CoT
Maybe they are not pinheads
Maybe they don't want to maybe do a playfield swap
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out
Customers, who know what crazy things gothrough their minds
Maybe like 99.99 percent of Stern buyers they would have been totally happy with the product.
Maybe they were steered away from BNIB & were encouraged to spend $ on their old machines.
-
I have many friends in Qld & other states who I see often who have many BNIB Stern purchases under their belts & I see their machines often & they don't have any of these problems. They have new Kiss, Mustang, TWDead & so on.
I looked at their games hard & not an issue.
Maybe we should actually ask people who have actually purchased a BNIB Stern if they have had a issue with the playfield & get some real data from the masses instead of a few isolated incidences.
That would be an objective way for this thread to get some fresh data instead of it just being about a few machines ?
-
@CoT
Maybe they are not pinheads
Maybe they don't want to maybe do a playfield swap
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out
Customers, who know what crazy things gothrough their minds
Maybe like 99.99 percent of Stern buyers they would have been totally happy with the product.
Maybe they were steered away from BNIB & were encouraged to spend $ on their old machines.
Excuse me,
Are you saying this is all a beat up by Nino so he can sell more restored games?
The guy has a four year waiting list, he does not need to attack Stern to get extra salrs
-
Nino, I honestly didn't mean to offend you with my original comments and respect your decision to end up with a new playfield to clearcoat and install down the road. Faced with the same situation, I would have chosen the same outcome. We have the ability to do this kind of work and do it properly. But what about those that don't?! Those that are left in the hands of Stern support??
My original comments were aimed at a higher level of overall customer satisfaction and delivering a quality product. If Stern had a real incentive, that being to avoid either further cost/time consuming penalty, such as supplying a new completely wired playfield where this type of thing has occurred, then I bet their quality control would improve and the cost cutting focus would change. They were especially bad for this during the time where they were the only manufacturer.
There is a thread on Pinside, where a bloke bought a NIB Metallica and the playfield was warped. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/met-playfield-twisted The playfield wouldn't sit on the lock down assembly straight and level, which effected game play as well. It literally took months for Stern to rectify the problem, around 6 months! That sort of customer service is pathetic. They eventually built and sent him a new playfield, only after they had his playfield for months, so in effect he had no game, just and empty cabinet for months on end. The real killer was when he installed the new playfield, it had multiple faults, wiring errors etc. The playfield obviously wasn't thoroughly tested prior to being sent out. So this customer gets hit twice! Luckily enough he had a friend and Stern Tech support help him rectify the problems over a few days. It's absolutely pathetic the way he was treated and my fear is this will continue whilst Stern is allowed the freedom to treat its customers how they choose. It may have been another time, but you wouldn't have seen Dave Gottlieb treat a customer in such a fashion.
-
@CoT
Maybe they are not pinheads
Maybe they don't want to maybe do a playfield swap
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out
Customers, who know what crazy things gothrough their minds
Maybe like 99.99 percent of Stern buyers they would have been totally happy with the product.
Maybe they were steered away from BNIB & were encouraged to spend $ on their old machines.
You are living in a bubble.
You also need to read ;
1) My TWD LE Review
2) My KISS LE Review
3) My KISS LE Unboxing thread
4) This thread from the first page
Then re read you second comment.
To save you the hassle - My personal NIB KISS LE was left here, at my place of work, for around 2 weeks, so that KISS fans and Pinball fans could compare the Pro and LE models and HOPEFULLY order a Premium. Any logical and intelligent person would arrive at the conclusion that I was trying to encourage sales. To assume i did that to encourage more restoration work is completely illogical and laughable.
I have many friends in Qld & other states who I see often who have many BNIB Stern purchases under their belts & I see their machines often & they don't have any of these problems. They have new Kiss, Mustang, TWDead & so on.
I looked at their games hard & not an issue.
Maybe we should actually ask people who have actually purchased a BNIB Stern if they have had a issue with the playfield & get some real data from the masses instead of a few isolated incidences.
That would be an objective way for this thread to get some fresh data instead of it just being about a few machines ?
Again, read the thread from the start. "real data" - So I'm just making this up ? We have had EXPERTS in this area (Tim and Stu from HRP) and my clearcoat expert that does older games all arrive at exactly the same conclusion. Stern Australia and Stern USA both agree it was a "factory defect". They are the real Stern experts.
We have had the figurehead at Stern - and I quote - "If your machine does not have dimples then you need to start playing it". EVERYONE accepts dimples to be part of a played pinball machine. Facts are facts. We are not trying to re write history. Stern have admitted they use the same clearcoat as they did 15 years ago. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. The focus is clearly on remedying the problem, not making up far fetched assumptions.
@CoT
Maybe they are not pinheads
Maybe they don't want to maybe do a playfield swap
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out
Customers, who know what crazy things gothrough their minds
Maybe like 99.99 percent of Stern buyers they would have been totally happy with the product.
Maybe they were steered away from BNIB & were encouraged to spend $ on their old machines.
Excuse me,
Are you saying this is all a beat up by Nino so he can sell more restored games?
The guy has a four year waiting list, he does not need to attack Stern to get extra salrs
Correct. If I wanted more resto work, why would I have left my LE at work for 2 weeks so friends, forum members and customers could play it with the intention of creating sales.
Nino, I honestly didn't mean to offend you with my original comments and respect your decision to end up with a new playfield to clearcoat and install down the road. Faced with the same situation, I would have chosen the same outcome. We have the ability to do this kind of work and do it properly. But what about those that don't?! Those that are left in the hands of Stern support??
My original comments were aimed at a higher level of overall customer satisfaction and delivering a quality product. If Stern had a real incentive, that being to avoid either further cost/time consuming penalty, such as supplying a new completely wired playfield where this type of thing has occurred, then I bet their quality control would improve and the cost cutting focus would change. They were especially bad for this during the time where they were the only manufacturer.
There is a thread on Pinside, where a bloke bought a NIB Metallica and the playfield was warped. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/met-playfield-twisted The playfield wouldn't sit on the lock down assembly straight and level, which effected game play as well. It literally took months for Stern to rectify the problem, around 6 months! That sort of customer service is pathetic. They eventually built and sent him a new playfield, only after they had his playfield for months, so in effect he had no game, just and empty cabinet for months on end. The real killer was when he installed the new playfield, it had multiple faults, wiring errors etc. The playfield obviously wasn't thoroughly tested prior to being sent out. So this customer gets hit twice! Luckily enough he had a friend and Stern Tech support help him rectify the problems over a few days. It's absolutely pathetic the way he was treated and my fear is this will continue whilst Stern is allowed the freedom to treat its customers how they choose. It may have been another time, but you wouldn't have seen Dave Gottlieb treat a customer in such a fashion.
I can't find an offending word in your original post - I highlighted a sentence with a reply so readers don't assume that Stern will send out a playfield for everyone complaining about issues.
There's no point in complaining about something without providing a solution. A populated playfield would not work for me. The blank playfield was perfect in my situation. Stern would replace the defective playfield with a populated playfield (as was indicated was the likely outcome for me, until I requested a blank) for a HUO owner with a similar issue. I know the members that contacted me to keep them in the loop were told the same thing.
I'd like to make one point crystal clear - Stern were thorough in their decision to assist with TWD LE playfield problem. It was not a case of sending out a playfield without the photos passing through several people at Stern / AMD / KJWHF. Every single employee of Stern, or business' associated were all in agreement regarding the playfield. It was never a case of simply sending me a playfield because I whinged hard enough. There has to be compelling evidence to justify a warranty claim such as this. Stern / AMD / KJWHF were brilliant in working with me to rectify the issue.
I'm updating this thread because I want Stern to seriously look at recent technologies ( HRP Clearcoating process and products), instead of the 15 year old technology that clearly is "hit and miss". I will try again in the New Year.
-
I can't find an offending word in your original post - I highlighted a sentence with a reply so readers don't assume that Stern will send out a playfield for everyone complaining about issues.
There's no point in complaining about something without providing a solution. A populated playfield would not work for me. The blank playfield was perfect in my situation. Stern would replace the defective playfield with a populated playfield (as was indicated was the likely outcome for me, until I requested a blank) for a HUO owner with a similar issue. I know the members that contacted me to keep them in the loop were told the same thing.
I'd like to make one point crystal clear - Stern were thorough in their decision to assist with TWD LE playfield problem. It was not a case of sending out a playfield without the photos passing through several people at Stern / AMD / KJWHF. Every single employee of Stern, or business' associated were all in agreement regarding the playfield. It was never a case of simply sending me a playfield because I whinged hard enough. There has to be compelling evidence to justify a warranty claim such as this. Stern / AMD / KJWHF were brilliant in working with me to rectify the issue.
I'm updating this thread because I want Stern to seriously look at recent technologies ( HRP Clearcoating process and products), instead of the 15 year old technology that clearly is "hit and miss". I will try again in the New Year.
I couldn't agree more, a new playfield for just any old issue isn't warranted and shouldn't be expected. Without conclusive evidence it's just plain ridiculous. It's good to hear that you were offered a complete playfield though, not that it was helpful to you, but to hear one was offered eases things a bit in my mind. I still can't get over the treatment the bloke in the USA received from Stern with his warped Metallica playfield. Hopefully your issue and the others that I've read about online, result in Stern examining their processes and improving their quality standards and control. Games just shouldn't ship from their factory with fundamental flaws.
Your efforts in trying to get Stern to improve are very much the right thing to do, hopefully they will take your advice and improve their standards and we can leave any doubts behind when considering buying NIB games.
-
Consumers buy Stern pinball machines in good faith under the promise of an advertising blurb.
The product they receive does not match what was advertised; if the model that you bought is popular then you might get code updates however if it is not then you are stuck with a substandard product.
People are complaining because the after sales side of things are not up to scratch (poor build quality, code updates etc).
I understand the production line has to move (new titles) however the after sales side of the equation needs to be addressed.
Unfortunately until NIB sales are affected, I don't see any change in the Stern business practice/model.
-
Apparently the latest is that lots of people around the world are having issues with GB and SMVE with cracking around inserts, inserts dropping & rising, crazing and insert ghosting (similar to MMr) so who ever is making their playfields are getting worst. I to a local who has a GB Pro who said his mate who has a GBLE has ghosting, cracking around his inserts and a few inserts have dropped down lower than the playfield.
-
This is why I dropped my Prem order quicker than Jarred Hayne dropped the NRL and then the NFL. I'm very happy I bought a Tron instead, I can always get a GB 2nd hand later.
Crazy money for NIB as it is but to have these sort of issues with cracking, ghosting etc straight out of the box is totally un-acceptable imho.
-
Apparently the latest is that lots of people around the world are having issues with GB and SMVE with cracking around inserts, inserts dropping & rising, crazing and insert ghosting (similar to MMr) so who ever is making their playfields are getting worst. I to a local who has a GB Pro who said his mate who has a GBLE has ghosting, cracking around his inserts and a few inserts have dropped down lower than the playfield.
All starting to point to unseasoned timber. Appears to be very soft when you get a game hence the dimples which flatten out ( timber seasoning itself) and then shrinking also ( cracking or coming away from inserts).
It does very much sound like "green" ply being used to me.
-
Apparently the latest is that lots of people around the world are having issues with GB and SMVE with cracking around inserts, inserts dropping & rising, crazing and insert ghosting (similar to MMr) so who ever is making their playfields are getting worst. I to a local who has a GB Pro who said his mate who has a GBLE has ghosting, cracking around his inserts and a few inserts have dropped down lower than the playfield.
Although I think Stern would never admit it - This thread, and a number of other threads on forums, definitely changed "something" at Stern with regards to playfield production and QA. Nearly ALL the New Sterns post KISS have had brilliant clear coats. Something has changed.
I have not seen the ghosting and cracking inserts etc. Would love to see pictures. My KISS LE is flawless.
-
There are pics on this thread.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/is-your-stern-ghosting-grazing-insert-lifting-other
-
Issue with a Ghost Busters LE
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gozer-worshipping-wontt-fix-this-problem
-
http://captiongenerator.com/100017/Hitler-not-happy-about-his-new-Ghostbusters-pin
:lol
-
Issue with a Ghost Busters LE
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gozer-worshipping-wontt-fix-this-problem
That Sucks! I really wanted a GBLE one day! :(
-
To be honest hasn't stopped me playing. I've had major fun on people's games that are missing artwork, flippers not at optimum strength, backglasses that are missing. But then again, I don't take the glass off at the end of every game to clean it and look at the damage I have caused. I broke a plastic once on my T2 and its still in my collection....what must I be thinking????
-
As long as the buyer is ok with these potential issues straight out of the box,by all means go right ahead and drop the coin.
^^^
-
https://www.facebook.com/wheresthecode/?fref=nf
if playfields are ghosting within a few days what will the playfield look like in 6 months time
-
https://www.facebook.com/wheresthecode/?fref=nf
if playfields are ghosting within a few days what will the playfield look like in 6 months time
Maybe if it is looked at another way. Take away the fact that it's a pinball with heavy metal balls flying around which they are supposed to be built to do.
If you bought a tv and the corner of the screen started to get blurry after a couple of days, would you be taking it back to the supplier? Or would you leave it as 95% of the screen is still working correctly. Or if you bought a brand new car and the paint started blistering. I'm sure most people would be taking it back.
If I had parted with my hard earned and this started happening I'd like something done about it.
-
https://www.facebook.com/wheresthecode/?fref=nf
if playfields are ghosting within a few days what will the playfield look like in 6 months time
Maybe if it is looked at another way. Take away the fact that it's a pinball with heavy metal balls flying around which they are supposed to be built to do.
If you bought a tv and the corner of the screen started to get blurry after a couple of days, would you be taking it back to the supplier? Or would you leave it as 95% of the screen is still working correctly. Or if you bought a brand new car and the paint started blistering. I'm sure most people would be taking it back.
If I had parted with my hard earned and this started happening I'd like something done about it.
Well put..
-
https://www.facebook.com/wheresthecode/?fref=nf
if playfields are ghosting within a few days what will the playfield look like in 6 months time
Maybe if it is looked at another way. Take away the fact that it's a pinball with heavy metal balls flying around which they are supposed to be built to do.
If you bought a tv and the corner of the screen started to get blurry after a couple of days, would you be taking it back to the supplier? Or would you leave it as 95% of the screen is still working correctly. Or if you bought a brand new car and the paint started blistering. I'm sure most people would be taking it back.
If I had parted with my hard earned and this started happening I'd like something done about it.
!@# totally agree with you, that's why I posted a picture and one of the reasons I cancelled my order
-
Now lets hear from those that have parted with their 'hard earned' and see what they have done about it. I've done nothing. Maybe others can spur me along to do something. Has a vcat app been lodged? What's amd's response? Has stern been sent a letter? Patiently awaiting responses so I can maybe piggy back on the class action???
I've always found it difficult to get groups together, maybe here is my chance for a petition or something. Thanks
-
I have heard that the the latest GoT, SMVE and GB's are made in house ??? not sure but apparently the insert pockets have been routed slightly too deep so with play the inserts drop down and separate around the edge near the playfield timber edge. I suppose in time this area will crack and break out. Ideally the insert pockets should be routed just a hair thickness shallower than the insert thickness so once installed so the insert is hard up against a timber edge with glue locking in place and then the playfield is sanded flat knocking the tops off the inserts.
How can the insert holes be routed incorrect:
- programmed too deep
- inserts changed in thickness
- playfield ply not held down (vacuum) properly, allowing the board to rise and be routed deeper
- ply is varying in thickness
- tool depth not set correctly (not sensor checked regularly)
- doubt the ply is too green as it would shrink fractionally creating insert edge cracking not ghosting.
Ideally the ply should be vacuum held down on a good and level waste board with the spindle, tool and vacuum pickup set as a maximum depth cut controlling the depth cut.
A US guy got this fair so reckon anyone with issues send the below details to the distributor and then send the same info to Stern.
"I called Stern regarding ghosting on my SMVE and spoke to tech support.
He indicated that ghosting is a known issue on some current run games. I was told management, engineers and suppliers are investigating the issue. I was asked to send an email and I would be included in a list of reported machines.
The solution/resolution to the issue is to be determined.
The requested information was: game model, serial number, manufacturing date, purchase date, distributor name and a de******ion of the issue and with supporting pictures.
I received an email acknowledging the receipt of the information.
The email I was given to send the information was: parts.service@sternpinball.com"
If anyone has a problem make sure to tell them especially due to the money that was spent by lots of people and if people don't they will keep going as is and ignore people but if just a playfield costs them $300USD plus postage to people they are probably up to 500 playfields = a lot of dollars to correct the issue, and the other downside also that if they do send out a playfield who knows if it is any better as you might chose to store it and by the time you use it, it could have the same issues.
-
Boycott any NIB Stern until they fix this problem!
^^^
-
I have heard that the the latest GoT, SMVE and GB's are made in house ??? not sure but apparently the insert pockets have been routed slightly too deep so with play the inserts drop down and separate around the edge near the playfield timber edge. I suppose in time this area will crack and break out. Ideally the insert pockets should be routed just a hair thickness shallower than the insert thickness so once installed so the insert is hard up against a timber edge with glue locking in place and then the playfield is sanded flat knocking the tops off the inserts.
How can the insert holes be routed incorrect:
- programmed too deep
- inserts changed in thickness
- playfield ply not held down (vacuum) properly, allowing the board to rise and be routed deeper
- ply is varying in thickness
- tool depth not set correctly (not sensor checked regularly)
- doubt the ply is too green as it would shrink fractionally creating insert edge cracking not ghosting.
Ideally the ply should be vacuum held down on a good and level waste board with the spindle, tool and vacuum pickup set as a maximum depth cut controlling the depth cut.
A US guy got this fair so reckon anyone with issues send the below details to the distributor and then send the same info to Stern.
"I called Stern regarding ghosting on my SMVE and spoke to tech support.
He indicated that ghosting is a known issue on some current run games. I was told management, engineers and suppliers are investigating the issue. I was asked to send an email and I would be included in a list of reported machines.
The solution/resolution to the issue is to be determined.
The requested information was: game model, serial number, manufacturing date, purchase date, distributor name and a de******ion of the issue and with supporting pictures.
I received an email acknowledging the receipt of the information.
The email I was given to send the information was: parts.service@sternpinball.com"
If anyone has a problem make sure to tell them especially due to the money that was spent by lots of people and if people don't they will keep going as is and ignore people but if just a playfield costs them $300USD plus postage to people they are probably up to 500 playfields = a lot of dollars to correct the issue, and the other downside also that if they do send out a playfield who knows if it is any better as you might chose to store it and by the time you use it, it could have the same issues.
excellent, does this person have a name and contact details I can have or do I just quote his avatar?
Btw I thought inserts are installed a little proud of the surface and then sanded level on a machine not too dissimilar to ones that make table tops 'perfectly' flat??? I could be wrong, so someone in the know could explain the process. Or is Stern just pushing the inserts in by finger and then slapping on a cc? Thanks and good to see action taken???
-
https://www.facebook.com/wheresthecode/?fref=nf
if playfields are ghosting within a few days what will the playfield look like in 6 months time
Maybe if it is looked at another way. Take away the fact that it's a pinball with heavy metal balls flying around which they are supposed to be built to do.
If you bought a tv and the corner of the screen started to get blurry after a couple of days, would you be taking it back to the supplier? Or would you leave it as 95% of the screen is still working correctly. Or if you bought a brand new car and the paint started blistering. I'm sure most people would be taking it back.
If I had parted with my hard earned and this started happening I'd like something done about it.
I agree
Wouldn't you just take it back to the supplier for them to fix it?
They come with a 12 month warranty, but saying that with Aus law due to the cost of it and the fact that it is marketed as a commercial machine the implied warranty would be much more than 12 months especially in home use.
-
You would think so. If its a big concern why wait. I know if and when I am this concerned hell will break out and not just talk on forums.
-
https://www.facebook.com/wheresthecode/?fref=nf
if playfields are ghosting within a few days what will the playfield look like in 6 months time
Maybe if it is looked at another way. Take away the fact that it's a pinball with heavy metal balls flying around which they are supposed to be built to do.
If you bought a tv and the corner of the screen started to get blurry after a couple of days, would you be taking it back to the supplier? Or would you leave it as 95% of the screen is still working correctly. Or if you bought a brand new car and the paint started blistering. I'm sure most people would be taking it back.
If I had parted with my hard earned and this started happening I'd like something done about it.
!@# totally agree with you, that's why I posted a picture and one of the reasons I cancelled my order
Sorry swinks. That wasn't aimed at you. Just everyone affected by the ghosting/insert chipping. It looked like some may just accept this problem because the game is really good to play, then regret not doing something at the start.
I hope it gets resolved because from what I've seen , heard and read it's a fantastic game that's unfortunately being buoyed by these insert issues.
-
https://www.facebook.com/wheresthecode/?fref=nf
if playfields are ghosting within a few days what will the playfield look like in 6 months time
Maybe if it is looked at another way. Take away the fact that it's a pinball with heavy metal balls flying around which they are supposed to be built to do.
If you bought a tv and the corner of the screen started to get blurry after a couple of days, would you be taking it back to the supplier? Or would you leave it as 95% of the screen is still working correctly. Or if you bought a brand new car and the paint started blistering. I'm sure most people would be taking it back.
If I had parted with my hard earned and this started happening I'd like something done about it.
!@# totally agree with you, that's why I posted a picture and one of the reasons I cancelled my order
Sorry swinks. That wasn't aimed at you. Just everyone affected by the ghosting/insert chipping. It looked like some may just accept this problem because the game is really good to play, then regret not doing something at the start.
I hope it gets resolved because from what I've seen , heard and read it's a fantastic game that's unfortunately being buoyed by these insert issues.
No worries, and that is the reason I posted this
I had no intention of upsetting people that are in on a game but felt others considering needed to be aware of what is happening. Personally I bailed for a few reasons outside of pinball but quality issues was a heavy reason for holding back for a while. Great game on so many levels but think it is crap that for a company that has been making pinball for 30 years is having so many issues and not communicating with it's customers. Hopefully they sort it out and look after everyone that has issues.
-
Just unboxed my Ghostbusters LE and phew, thank God, no insert ghosting, but I'm guessing there might be some minor adjustments required. Can't wait to play this baby %.%
-
Just unboxed my Ghostbusters LE and phew, thank God, no insert ghosting, but I'm guessing there might be some minor adjustments required. Can't wait to play this baby %.%
You need to be a bit more careful unboxing your pinballs in the future, I think I can see a scratch on the cabinet! ;)
-
I'm not great with a box cutter ^&^
-
Colour photos please. Unboxing is a special monent.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
-
%.%
-
one poor guy even has chunks of clear and art coming off all around the playfield after 154 games, gonna affect Stern big time
-
it's not a playfield issue but goes to show that having a big factory and heaps of lines of games to build that they are stuffing up even more. This apparently has happened to a few people - 2 different side rails
-
it's not a playfield issue but goes to show that having a big factory and heaps of lines of games to build that they are stuffing up even more. This apparently has happened to a few people - 2 different side rails
That is pathetic. All this talk of a new factory, can't keep up with demand and they take 12 months to release acceptable code.
I know I've tried to promote Stern as much as I can, but they keep letting themselves down.
-
Until people start voting with their wallet then nothing will change.
People can complain about the poor quality but it will all be forgotten when the next title is released.
Watch for the preorder of the LE version.
-
That top rail looks like it came from an Avengers spare parts bin.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
-
Alot of people are cancelling and postponing orders so Stern will be noticing.
October 10th or around then is supposed to be the big 30 year celebration and probably bring a lcd / colour dmd along with a new game but they want to fix these issues as it could be the massive negative turn of a big company.
-
it's not a playfield issue but goes to show that having a big factory and heaps of lines of games to build that they are stuffing up even more. This apparently has happened to a few people - 2 different side rails
What is wrong with that? You cant see both sides of the cabinet at the same time anyway *)* *)* *)* @.@
-
it's not a playfield issue but goes to show that having a big factory and heaps of lines of games to build that they are stuffing up even more. This apparently has happened to a few people - 2 different side rails
What is wrong with that? You cant see both sides of the cabinet at the same time anyway *)* *)* *)* @.@
I never see the sides as I'm always at the arse end flipping away ^^^
-
it's not a playfield issue but goes to show that having a big factory and heaps of lines of games to build that they are stuffing up even more. This apparently has happened to a few people - 2 different side rails
What is wrong with that? You cant see both sides of the cabinet at the same time anyway *)* *)* *)* @.@
I guess that is what they were counting on when they assembled it that way. "Hey Gary No One Will Notice, She'll Be Right!!!!" LOL
-
it's not a playfield issue but goes to show that having a big factory and heaps of lines of games to build that they are stuffing up even more. This apparently has happened to a few people - 2 different side rails
What is wrong with that? You cant see both sides of the cabinet at the same time anyway *)* *)* *)* @.@
I never see the sides as I'm always at the arse end flipping away ^^^
That is a little too much info there mate #@#
-
Maybe I could have phrased it a little differently........nah
-
I wonder how much Steve Richie was paid for this propaganda ?
-
I wonder how much Steve Richie was paid for this propaganda ?
Must be close to retiring
-
Steve Ritchie is looking like a bad parody of Roy Orbison...
-
Disappointed in Steve.
-
not a fan of Steve's rock star personality
Stern are just paving the way to allow the drop in quality
-
My Williams Flash has original playfield without a single dimple.
Two other EMs with no dimples (only some wear near ball kick outs on playfield).
3 Sterns (5 year old).......lots of dimples everywhere. Can't see them directly but on an angle view with lighting you can't avoid noticing them.
My conclusion (contrary to Steve's theory) is "They don't make them like they used to".....like all other goods these days in a disposable world.
Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk
-
The replacement TWD LE playfield that was provided for Greg's LE (the subject of this thread) had more dimples and defects than the one in the game that had less than 50 plays. So the lame excuse "balls are stronger than wood and cause dimples" is no excuse. A Fathom I had clearcoated 5 years ago - not one single dimple that is noticeable. Addams family cleared by Tim. Hundreds of games and you can count the dimples on one hand. Strangely enough and to further refute "expert opinion" - my KISS LE - 350 games and I count 16 dimples...
Now I don't mind dimples - that's not my major issue - but lying about it with rubbish excuses to convince newbies.. That's my respect gone....
-
Steve Ritchie is looking like a bad parody of Roy Orbison...
Yes and like in Roy's Penny Arcade, I can hear Steve singing
"Roll up and spend your last dime"
Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk
-
Not defending Stern and this can actually be a criticism, but when talking about old EM's or a Flash etc and probably most B/W games I do not recall such games having many if any Airballs. Now that probably is because they were well designed and in the case of EM's things are moving much slower. So if a ball is bouncing around the playfield a lot, multiballs a plenty all contribute to dimpling.
So this could be one explanation or contributing factor on top of softer pf's. What caused divots around ramp ball drop areas on B/W games. I'm guessing thousands of balls dropping in the one spot. My thoughts anyway
-
-
Not defending Stern and this can actually be a criticism, but when talking about old EM's or a Flash etc and probably most B/W games I do not recall such games having many if any Airballs. Now that probably is because they were well designed and in the case of EM's things are moving much slower. So if a ball is bouncing around the playfield a lot, multiballs a plenty all contribute to dimpling.
So this could be one explanation or contributing factor on top of softer pf's. What caused divots around ramp ball drop areas on B/W games. I'm guessing thousands of balls dropping in the one spot. My thoughts anyway
EMs and SS machines up to the early 80's didn't have a clearcoat. That's another hole in Steve's argument ("60 years in pinball"), because if you knew the facts up to 60 years ago, you would know that manufacturers used varnish. They also used STRONGER TIMBER. In fact, it is only recently that this has become an argument - because Stern use weaker timber and a clearcoat process that is over 15 years old.
The timber is softer, and the clearcoat is old technology.
Thats why when we apply modern clears to older playfields - guess what - They don't dimple anywhere near what new Sterns do..
-
now my question is can you still buy the same timbers or are the choices now limited to new growth stuff only like I have seen in other industries. It doesn't matter whether your tech/workmanship side remains the same, crap raw materials is crap raw materials.
So does Stern have a choice or are they purely cost cutting? Are we as HUO customers too fussy (I know this is not an excuse as Stern obviously have targeted this market and must adjust for it)?
Dimpling hasn't concerned me because I guess I'm getting older and I once strived for perfection but have come to the conclusion it is impossible to achieve. There is a lot of disappointments out there when you know things can be done better (with only a little care and effort) that is out of your control.
-
now my question is can you still buy the same timbers or are the choices now limited to new growth stuff only like I have seen in other industries. It doesn't matter whether your tech/workmanship side remains the same, crap raw materials is crap raw materials.
So does Stern have a choice or are they purely cost cutting? Are we as HUO customers too fussy (I know this is not an excuse as Stern obviously have targeted this market and must adjust for it)?
Dimpling hasn't concerned me because I guess I'm getting older and I once strived for perfection but have come to the conclusion it is impossible to achieve. There is a lot of disappointments out there when you know things can be done better (with only a little care and effort) that is out of your control.
I'm like you Rob, perfection is for others, and dimples and pinball go hand in hand.
But what bothers me is that while it appears to me that softer wood is the primary culprit (and potentially the thinner clear as well), why this is not embraced by Stern as the answer confuses me. if the best wood around is softer these days, then that's that.
But if they are buying the cheapest, then the propaganda is out of line.
My IPB replacement FH playfield of ten years with massive play numbers has some dimples - *some*. The BBB made by them (and presumably using the same playfield supplier) has *some* dimples since 2005. My HUO but well played Stern 2008 Spider Man has *some"* dimples and has plenty of the air balls Stern seeks to blame. My AFM Mirco original run playfield (ie real artwork, not the weird underlayer version used now) which must be 8 years old has *some* dimples - and if you want an airball game, there's one for you. yet every later model Stern I have seen has the apparently immediate everywhere dimple problem.
Go figure.
-
now my question is can you still buy the same timbers or are the choices now limited to new growth stuff only like I have seen in other industries. It doesn't matter whether your tech/workmanship side remains the same, crap raw materials is crap raw materials.
So does Stern have a choice or are they purely cost cutting? Are we as HUO customers too fussy (I know this is not an excuse as Stern obviously have targeted this market and must adjust for it)?
Dimpling hasn't concerned me because I guess I'm getting older and I once strived for perfection but have come to the conclusion it is impossible to achieve. There is a lot of disappointments out there when you know things can be done better (with only a little care and effort) that is out of your control.
I'm like you Rob, perfection is for others, and dimples and pinball go hand in hand.
But what bothers me is that while it appears to me that softer wood is the primary culprit (and potentially the thinner clear as well), why this is not embraced by Stern as the answer confuses me. if the best wood around is softer these days, then that's that.
But if they are buying the cheapest, then the propaganda is out of line.
My IPB replacement FH playfield of ten years with massive play numbers has some dimples - *some*. The BBB made by them (and presumably using the same playfield supplier) has *some* dimples since 2005. My HUO but well played Stern 2008 Spider Man has *some"* dimples and has plenty of the air balls Stern seeks to blame. My AFM Mirco original run playfield (ie real artwork, not the weird underlayer version used now) which must be 8 years old has *some* dimples - and if you want an airball game, there's one for you. yet every later model Stern I have seen has the apparently immediate everywhere dimple problem.
Go figure.
-
now my question is can you still buy the same timbers or are the choices now limited to new growth stuff only like I have seen in other industries. It doesn't matter whether your tech/workmanship side remains the same, crap raw materials is crap raw materials.
So does Stern have a choice or are they purely cost cutting? Are we as HUO customers too fussy (I know this is not an excuse as Stern obviously have targeted this market and must adjust for it)?
Dimpling hasn't concerned me because I guess I'm getting older and I once strived for perfection but have come to the conclusion it is impossible to achieve. There is a lot of disappointments out there when you know things can be done better (with only a little care and effort) that is out of your control.
I'm like you Rob, perfection is for others, and dimples and pinball go hand in hand.
But what bothers me is that while it appears to me that softer wood is the primary culprit (and potentially the thinner clear as well), why this is not embraced by Stern as the answer confuses me. if the best wood around is softer these days, then that's that.
But if they are buying the cheapest, then the propaganda is out of line.
My IPB replacement FH playfield of ten years with massive play numbers has some dimples - *some*. The BBB made by them (and presumably using the same playfield supplier) has *some* dimples since 2005. My HUO but well played Stern 2008 Spider Man has *some* dimples and has plenty of the air balls Stern seeks to blame. My AFM Mirco original run playfield (ie real artwork, not the weird printed version I'm told is used now) which must be 8 years old has *some* dimples - and if you want an airball game, there's one for you.
Yet every later model Stern I have seen has the apparently immediate everywhere dimple problem. But it is not their wood or clearcoat.
Go figure.
-
The answer Nick is quite simple... anyone with a Wade Kraus or CPR repro playfield please tell us whether it has dimples or not. Ply comes in many grades and I know wade is very particular about the timber he uses.
If these 2 manufacturers suffer from dimpling then its just the way the world is... if not, then its right back at Stern.