The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => General Discussion => Suggestions? => Topic started by: Strangeways on August 10, 2010, 01:03:52 PM
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We have been asked both privately and publicly if we can set a standard of rules and regulations in an effort to improve the buying and selling experience of pinballs sold through this site. This is simply a "think tank" of ideas that we will use to incorporate into a standard "For Sale" or "Wanted" post on Aussie Pinball. There have been a few good ideas submitted on threads, but I'd like them submitted here.
As a seller - a "For Sale" thread would have to include a checklist of items that have either been done, or not done.
Example
- Flipper Kits installed - Yes / No
- All rubbers replaced - Yes / No
As a Buyer - a "Pinball Wanted" thread would have to include a checklist of items that are expected to be completed
Example
Minimum Requirements ;
- Reproduction playfield must be installed - Not an overlay
- All Globes replaced
- All ramps must be new or repro
Minimum Requirements
- Non working machine
- Complete
- No playfield wear
etc etc..
Here's a suggestion from Blair in an earlier post on another thread ;
re-rubbered Y/N
re-globed Y/N
flipper kit Y/N
playfield polished Y/N and type of polish e.g. Novus 2
damaged ramp/s Y/N (with notation on type of damage)
mylared Y/N removed Y/N
Feel free to add more suggestions.
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For sellers; who have you sold to on this site before, could be used as a reference check.
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For sellers; who have you sold to on this site before, could be used as a reference check.
Good idea as well or maybe some type of feedback along the lines of eBay - both for seller and buyer. Simple rating system to avoid a verbal assault or limit it to a certain number of characters, again along the lines of eBay, short sweet and factual. Then if someone wants to contact the party involved, they can do so via PM and keep things private irrespective of whether any comments are for or against.
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You are also going to have problems with seller’s skills at restoration, board repairs, etc…
I could do my best at a restoration job, and advertise it as such, but my skills at not even close to Nino’s
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All seems to be a bit complicated IMHO. I think its good that members can offer their pin for sale to other members before listing on epay. I reckon container pins are a great way to source an affordable project machine, not everyone is looking for a fully shopped pin (and the price it then demands). At the end of the day its up to the purchaser to actually look/test a machine before handing over the cash, otherwise take the risk. My 2 cents.........
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The idea of a template is to jog people's memory as to what has or hasn't been done or what might be expected by buyers and give potential buyers a quick heads up as to the probable condition of the machine. There is a public record in black and white of how the machine was portrayed and any major differences to that description may then be brought to the attention of others.
The forum is meant to be for everyone and not just commercial sellers, that was an issue raised in another thread that the forum is viewed by some as being too commercial. Restricting for sale threads to commercial sellers only is not a good idea in my humble opinion. At the end of the day, the forum should not be held accountable for any deals turning sour, the deal is done between individuals with the forum used as a tool to advertise the machine for the seller and/or buyer in the case of a wanted ad and is a great asset to the pinball community.
I don't see any problem with being listed as either a buyer or seller of a machine, I've got nothing to hide and if it assists with honest and factual information being shared amongst up then happy days.
There will always be something not working 100% right on a machine, whether it is broken or damaged or just out of adjustment I haven't bought one machine yet that hasn't needed something done somewhere. We all know how many moving parts there are in these machines and I honestly don't expect every single thing to be stripped down and thoroughly checked, ask someone like Nino or Mark C how long that would take and how much added cost to a machine there would be because of that. What the whole aim of this excercise is to minimise any gross errors or omissions from a description.
Whatever the outcome is, it's great to see an effort being made in response to member's concerns and everyone being given an opportunity to contribute.
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My way, everyone still gets to advertise a machine sale, its just done slightly differently to how it has been., People need to know there is a difference to a professional mseller with professional techs and amateurs with volunteer staff. The results may be different.
Who wants the forum to be the place that unhappy customers voice their concerns ? and it all goes pear shaped when there are differences. I am thinking of the forum, not the seller or the buyer, but for the forum.
it is OK
Nino is just getting peoples opinions
I am sure he will look at all these posts later, consult with Creech and come up with a plan
hows about you can sell 4 pins per year without being a paid up commercial seller?
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Brett, do I understand correctly that with your idea I wouldn't be able to advertise a machine for sale on the forum but I would have to go to the expense of listing it for sale on eBay and then post the eBay link on AP?
All that will do is raise to cost of machines, I'd be asking for more money to cover the eBay fees which then introduces alot more people to the machine as opposed to us trying to look after each other and keep our machines 'in the family' so to speak at reasonable prices.
The forum is simply a medium for us to communicate with each other and cannot be held accountable for deals turning sour. If I sell a machine to you after I advertised it here on AP and the deal turned sour, my issue would be with you and not AP.
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I will add my :2cents:
I've sold a couple of pins via Aussie Pinball and via Aussie Arcade.
I have generally listed mine as local pickup only. I understand this makes it difficult for the interstate guys, but transport can (as we all know) cause problems.
I will detail all new parts purchased and work undertaken. I find this easier rather than listing everything I have not done. Leaves out any doubt / assumptions.
I will list as many photos of I can. If there is obvious wear I'll list it and photograph it.
Communication. I encourage questions. If you have a question, concern or specifically want to know if something has been fixed or want another photograph, close up etc. ASK.
If the seller avoids it, doesn't respond with what you want, walk away from the deal.
If I'm requested to specifically do something to complete the sale, I will do it and photograph / video and communicate with the purchaser prior to completion of the sale to ensure they are happy with it.
In the past on eBay I've stated that I am happy for ANY independent inspection to be done on the machine. For the interstater's, we pretty much have members in every corner. If I was buying a machine interstate, I would ask for a member to visit and inspect the machine and / or photograph for me and report back prior to the game shipping.
I would be happy (if negotiated into the price) to have ANY commercial tech inspect the machine. So I would welcome Mark's techs, Bumpers techs, BCW techs to inspect the machine and provide an independent report to the purchaser. Obviously nobody can look into the future and like a pre-purchase inspection on a vehicle things can still go wrong. But perhaps for a small fee (I am sure it could be done in an hour) would give some assurance to the purchaser. Maybe this is something the commercial guys can look at?
I don't agree that the mods need to do a lot of work in the for sale section. I do think perhaps a locked thread for anybody (mostly new people to the hobby / buying pins) should read before buying privately or commercially. Perhaps it can list the following:
- Research. Do your research. Look on http://www.ipdb.org to get an idea of what the playfield / plastics / ramps should look like.
- Research. Check the owners thread and email / PM an owner of the machine and ASK what to look out for, common problems, wear spots, hard to get parts etc.
- Ask for an independent inspection by another member.
- Ask for more photos, better descriptions
- Check http://www.pinpedia.com for recent ebay sales prices
- Compare machines. Visit a commercial seller, inspect their machines, ask questions.
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As a seller, if you are adding a link to ebay you are costing yourself fees.
As a buyer, I would like the opportunity to purchase games from sellers here before they are offered to the general public on ebay.
If I imported containers of pinballs and paid for sponsorship, would I be allowed to advertise as a commercial seller?
Nino,
The idea of a selling template is great. I will use it if I advertise here or on ebay. It will help with my items de******ion. I hope I am not compelled to answer each question to enable me to place an ad as there are answers i may not be able to give.
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Nino,
The idea of a selling template is great. I will use it if I advertise here or on ebay. It will help with my items de******ion. I hope I am not compelled to answer each question to enable me to place an ad as there are answers i may not be able to give.
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That's a good point and easily fixed. Honesty is the best policy, you can never be criticised for being honest. If you don't know then that's your answer - "I don't know"
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Chill out guys. Everyone seems to be getting a bit hot under the collar about this. !#%
The idea of a template is great. We will work on this approach.
We will not be restricting sales to only commercial guys and forcing members to put up eBay links only. Won't happen. *.* *.* *.*
I get the sense that due to a few peoples bad experiences, everyone is being tarnished with the same brush. Hundreds of machines have been sold on AP to very happy customers. Let's not get carried away with 1 or 2 bad outcomes. These incidents can never be prevented I'm afraid. If you try to stop it on AP then it will still happen somewhere else. How does that help the hobby? If the seller wishes to misrepresent a machine then they will pay in the long run.
The checklist approach is a good one. It gives the buyer some assurance about the quality of the machine being sold. This allows them to approach the sale with as much info as possible and to go in with eyes wide open.
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The template Creech is a good idea.
The reason i wanted to differentiate between a professional seller, and a non professional seller, is that when a professional seller does a checklist, i know for arguments sake the boards etc have been looked at by a professional tech. I then feel confident that the machine wont turn up with various board faults. The buyer needs to know if he is dealing with professionals or amateurs.
Perhaps, amateur sellers shld also list who will be working on the machines. Volunteers or Trained professionals.? Just a suggestion.
It makes a big difference with board repairs and underplayfiield repairs etc, espescially since these items are 240 volt. ?
To say a "tech" is working on the machine may not be good enough. ?
Brett,
There is very specific legislation down here in Victoria which covers your concerns. I am sure that the other states have similar legislation as well.
# A business – including major charitable organisations – supplying or offering to supply second hand electrical equipment must also attach a label stating that the equipment is second hand and that the equipment has been inspected and tested and that it complies with Australian/New Zealand Standard(AS/NZS) 3760; OR
# If it has not been tested, the business supplying or offering to supply second hand electrical equipment must include a clear statement on the label, stating the equipment is second hand, with additional words as follows: DANGER – DO NOT USE OR CONNECT TO SUPPLY – THIS ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT MAY BE FAULTY AND SHOULD BE INSPECTED AND TESTED BY A COMPETENT PERSON IN ACCORDANCE WITH AS/NZS 3760
So any machine purchased commercially from a business must be tag and tested and also be labelled as second hand equipment.
A person supplying or offering to supply second hand electrical equipment must have a label attached to the equipment stating that the equipment is second hand;
(source http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/ForElectricityProfessionals/Electricalequipmentandappliances/Saleandsupplyofsecondhandequipment/tabid/59/Default.aspx (http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/ForElectricityProfessionals/Electricalequipmentandappliances/Saleandsupplyofsecondhandequipment/tabid/59/Default.aspx))
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The template Creech is a good idea.
The reason i wanted to differentiate between a professional seller, and a non professional seller, is that when a professional seller does a checklist, i know for arguments sake the boards etc have been looked at by a professional tech. I then feel confident that the machine wont turn up with various board faults. The buyer needs to know if he is dealing with professionals or amateurs.
Perhaps, amateur sellers shld also list who will be working on the machines. Volunteers or Trained professionals.? Just a suggestion.
It makes a big difference with board repairs and underplayfiield repairs etc, espescially since these items are 240 volt. ?
To say a "tech" is working on the machine may not be good enough. ?
Trust me Brett there are so called professionals that sell machines well under the quality of those that would appear on this forum - they get weeded out eventually and that's why you won't find any on the forums and those that do pop up from time to time don't hang around too long anyway.
There are some guys who it appears wouldn't be classed as professionals that I would place complete trust in over some that would loosely be termed professionals. Nino is not a professional, Marty J isn't a professional, Ken Shipley isn't a professional but there wouldn't be too many guys that would question their ability - just to name a few.
I think that there would be some guys who take offence to your comment that they may need to state who worked on their machine, there are plenty of guys who love to get their hands dirty and who do a terrific job on their machines. It may be seen as a slap in the face to many of us who don't have the luxury of a tech on hand 24/7 to question their ability.
When it comes down to it, we already have a fair idea of who we would and wouldn't like to buy a machine off and getting back to the sole purpose of this thread - a template is a tool and a guide to help describe a machine accurately and help steer unsuspecting buyers in the right direction which is what we want to achieve.
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I agree with what lots of others have said or implied here - a sale advertised through AP has nothing to do with AP and AP can't in any way be expected to arbitrate or regulate. I reckon the private sales are a good thing for the forum. A buyer who buys without looking or getting an awful lot of detail from the seller - whoever and where ever that is - is asking for trouble in my opinion.
MartyJ's guidelines posted earlier (about 7 posts prior to this) in this thread and any form of check list / disclosure sheet suggested out of here has got to help - but so does asking questions, viewing or getting someone else to look.
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The answer is pretty simple in my opinion: don't buy a machine unless you have inspected it yourself.
Or have gotten someone you respect and is impartial to inspect it for you.
That way there are no surprises.
And as MartyJ said, there are plenty of people interstate who are both competent and willing to inspect machines.
As far as I am concerned anyone can sell a machine on here after they have been around for a while; a template might help with descrip-tions but in the end if you inspect the machine yourself there is no problem.
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Off the bat gents - Stop the bickering. Period. If you have PRIVATE issues, deal with them PRIVATELY. When the template has been submitted for member's approval, I will be removing all posts that are not relevant to the topic.
As Creech suggest - !#%
Couple of pointers so far ;
Pinball sales will occur on eBay, Trading Post, Craigslist, PSPA, My Garage, your garage and his collection. Sales of Pinball machines are not restricted to dealers, there are heaps of private sales by people who are not dealers. eBay is not limited to dealers, most machines are sold by private owners. If a member (any member with more than 20 posts) wishes to sell his or her machine, we want to provide a universal platform to provide prospective buyers with a clear understanding of what they are buying. A NEWB can ask as many questions as he/she likes without feeling like thay are "hassling the seller". Seasoned collectors will know if it has a HOME ROM or not. Little things can make a difference and this will improve the experience of the buyer and seller. This will eliminate any possibility of mis communication, or "surprises" - by that I mean something like - "The bottom set of flippers has a flipper rebuild kit, but the top set does not".
What I'm putting up for consideration, is a basic checklist of items that a pinball machine will have completed at the time of the sale. It can be a "Home Use Only" pin, or a parts machine. But it will be clearly evident on the template.
- Moderators will NOT BE moderating or mediating the sale of machines. We will have no involvement.
- There will not be a "rating system" like eBay.
- We are not trying to seperate the professional businesses from the backyarder
We aim to create a universally accepted template that will be manditory for all sales of pinball machines through Aussie Pinball. The end result will be that the seller and the buyer know EXACTLY what the expectations are.
Keep the ideas coming - and keep it ON TOPIC
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I think the selling template is a great idea.
I would add that the template should include "known faults"
I would also add lets keep it simple ie.. KISS
Also pleased to see the mods/admins are trying to rein in this thread as it has gotten out of control.
At the end of the day
a) this is a hobby for 99% of us and 99% of us are not professionals, nor do we pretend to be
b) buyer beware
c) plenty of advice here for any new (1st pin) buyer from all of us who are happy to help
d) .01% of us have bought 25+ pins in less than 12 months or ever will
I sure hope AP continues in the tradition it was intended .. ie.. enjoyment of the hobby of pinball .
I have seen to much mud slinging and whinging of late by a very select few that is spoiling the enjoyment of this forum for the majority.
My 2c
Cheers
Dave
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Anyone should be able to sell there machines just as been done in the past if you do want a perfect machine go to the professionals if you want to save a few dollars or get a specific machine take the gamble.
I purchase a project as is with no explanations needed i assume it is non working and missing parts if the machine is beyond repair I simply shoot it and get on with life.
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Anyone should be able to sell there machines just as been done in the past if you do want a perfect machine go to the professionals if you want to save a few dollars or get a specific machine take the gamble.
I purchase a project as is with no explanations needed i assume it is non working and missing parts if the machine is beyond repair I simply shoot it and get on with life.
Totally agree Daniel .. also
"if the machine is beyond repair I simply shoot it and get on with life"
%.% %.% %.% !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! %.% %.% %.% %.% %.% %.% !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!! You totally cracked me up with that line.
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No need for a template IMO, all details should be discussed between buyer and seller only.
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Just a reminder - and this is not directed at anyone ;
Stay on topic. I've asked twice, I won't ask again.
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hey ddstoys **&
and now to the topic.
Yes i support the idea of a template, but you may need 2 templates, 1 for working machines and 1 for project pins.
the project pin template may need "are all major/minor components complete " (major components meaning game Specific parts & minor being common parts used in all pins that are readily available)
Are all boards in the machine
if minor or major repairs are needed (i.e. does it just need a clean, rebulbing & re rubbering or does it need board faults or playfield repaires)
the things i have listed might be useless but i do suggest the 2 different templates for project & working pins
hope this helps
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I'm a bit of an outsider in this aspect, I don't imagine I'll ever sell anyone here a pin, nor do I think I'll buy one from anyone here - the logistics and the distance pretty much make it impossible.
I don't want to upset anyone, and if my advice is not welcome, I've not got a problem if someone deletes the post.. but I have opinions on the subject, having done lots and lots of deals.
I don't understand why the forum needs a checklist, though. There are way too many variables here.
A flipper rebuild can be subjective. Did you install a rebuild kit? Did you file the plunger and the stop? Did you use the kit from this retailer, or that retailer? Some retailers have more complete kits than others, some have more accurate kits than others, etc.
Was the game re-ringed? The answer yes could mean 2 days ago, 3 months ago, you changed all the rings you can 'easily reach' etc.
Any of those questions are completely objective. There's no way to get a concrete answer.
At some point, a buyer has to take responsibility for their purchases. Do a little work. One of the problems we see over here in the states is what I call the 'walmart mentality' - meaning that people think they can return anything purchased anywhere anytime, instead of doing their work on the front end and verifying what they are buying fits their specific needs, the level of quality they desire, etc. And on the rare occasion when they end up buying something somewhere that won't let them return it, or they get buyers remorse, they raise a stink and draw attention to themselves and in some cases, expect the government or organizations to intervene :)
I think a post or thread about how to buy pins might be more effective. Suggestions on what a buyer might want to look at, questions they might want to ask, ask for references, etc.
If you can't view a pin yourself prior to buying, you should ask for photos of specific areas. If you aren't sure what those areas are, ask someone who owns the game.
If you can't view a pin yourself prior to buying, try to find a forum member that is trusted who lives nearby, and ask them to inspect.
A seller who is selling an item should provide plenty of photographs of their items for sale - flaws and all!
You wouldn't go down to the car lot on the corner, sign the papers and hand them the money without seeing and driving the car you are buying. You wouldn't go to the electronics store and buy a bigscreen tv without watching the demo unit, you wouldn't buy a house without seeing it and having an inspection.
Why would you buy an expensive pinball machine without doing some research first? Yet people seem to do it all the time.
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Valid points John and you are right.
Take your example of flipper kits - I dare say that the template go into a bit more detail and may ask something like whether the flippers have been -
Stripped, cleaned and recond'd - N
Brand new flipper kit installed (coil stop, plunger, coil sleeve, playfield bushings, flipper bats) - Y flipper kit from PSPA (or these components split up into their own question)
New coils Y/N
The idea of a template is to alert a potential buyer or give them a trigger to ask more questions about a particular part of the description as well as encourage the seller to describe things that he or she may have previously left out, especially to an inexperienced buyer who may not know what to ask. I guess the idea is to make the deal as transparent as possible and at the end of the day 'caveat emptor'.
The template idea is worth a shot, if it doesn't work then go back to how it was, if it does work then happy days.
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Off Topic posts and quotes of the "off topic posts" have been removed to keep the thread on topic and prevent further bickering from either side. Private issues are exactly that - Deal with then "in private".
This is probably the first (and hopefully the only) thread that we have been forced to HEAVILY moderate. !*!
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After reading through comments in here, I believe that the template may create more Gray areas and may introduce issues that can be the result of the template / checklist, or be attributed to it.
After consulting the other Mods, we have come the conclusion that Private Sales should be conducted "in private", and not be judged by a Checklist or template.
We encourage Private and Dealer Sales on Aussie Pinball.
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Further to what Nino said, please keep your private matters just that - private. We don't want to see your dirty laundry being aired on AP.
We are considering bringing in a rule to enforce it.