The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Pinball Mods => Custom Games => Topic started by: Homepin on January 29, 2013, 11:24:08 PM
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I don't understand why the issue with this Mr Homepin? At the end of the day it is all electronic in some way, isn't it?
Can you relate to me why you are so against this format and that IF it is, it will be a disaster.
I want to understand your reasoning
Cheers ^^^
PC's are the most unreliable electronic device around. They are not used in industrial controllers for very good reasons.
Look at Pin2000 - the PC based hardware is now causing all sorts of problems because it goes obsolete minutes after a new motherboard is released. Pin2000 owners did recently have a choice of throwing away the very obsolete PC and replacing it with a modern twist on the same thing (a newer version of the PC). Those that have done this will be back in the same boat in a few years IMO and for the same reasons.
A traditional electronic pinball is run by an "embedded controller" - a purpose built computer that has only one mission and does not deviate from this.
Stern knows this only too well - they are far from stupid and have NOT gone anywhere near PC's.
Industrial controllers are also run by "embedded controllers" purely for reliability and less chance of going obsolete in the next five minutes. I dread the thought of a large industrial plant going haywire because the PC crashed or ran amuck. Once enbedded software is written and de-bugged this almost never happens.
I'm afraid anyone using PC's to make pinballs (on a commercial basis) are in for a very bad shock.....and that includes JJP if that is what they are using....I haven't actually seen where they clarify what exactly will control their machines.....
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+1 definately makes sense Mike. ^^^
Why did JJP think this was the way to go (and others). Is it a cheaper/quicker way to get to market ? with "worry about the longevity hassles later" style thinking. ? !@#
Good to see someone finally say Strern arent stupid.lol Gary has kept it simple which seems to have worked for a very long time...why are people changing to PC based systems ?? !@# !@#
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+1 definately makes sense Mike. ^^^
Why did JJP think this was the way to go (and others). Is it a cheaper/quicker way to get to market ? with "worry about the longevity hassles later" style thinking. ? !@#
Good to see someone finally say Strern arent stupid.lol Gary has kept it simple which seems to have worked for a very long time...why are people changing to PC based systems ?? !@# !@#
You need to read it again mate..
I'm afraid anyone using PC's to make pinballs (on a commercial basis) are in for a very bad shock.....and that includes JJP if that is what they are using....I haven't actually seen where they clarify what exactly will control their machines.....
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For a home-brew project it is a lot easier to use a PC as the controller than to have to design a dedicated controller. That's why people do it. But commercially we are talking the potential for a machine to last a number of years, more than a lot of PCs last. And the trouble with using a PC is that a few years later if something breaks it is likely you will have to replace the whole PC unit as parts are generally not readily available. Or something like that.
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+1 definately makes sense Mike. ^^^
Why did JJP think this was the way to go (and others). Is it a cheaper/quicker way to get to market ? with "worry about the longevity hassles later" style thinking. ? !@#
Good to see someone finally say Strern arent stupid.lol Gary has kept it simple which seems to have worked for a very long time...why are people changing to PC based systems ?? !@# !@#
You need to read it again mate..
I'm afraid anyone using PC's to make pinballs (on a commercial basis) are in for a very bad shock.....and that includes JJP if that is what they are using....I haven't actually seen where they clarify what exactly will control their machines.....
Gav, I totally understood.
JJP are using a PC from what i understand. Remember that 20 page review that showed the motherboard and the graphics card in the metal box etc.
So JJP are using a PC based system if I interpreted those photos and information from that review correctly. That may mean that they are not following suit with a Stern based style system but doing their own PC style operating system for WOZ etc.
Which means JJP's pinball MAY end up having hassles like Mike said if they use the PC system.
It was in Pinball News
http://www.pinballnews.com/games/wizardofoz/index34.html
Inside the metal box we find the PC board, the driver board, the amplifier board and a power supply.
The motherboard used here is a passively-cooled Intel mini-ITX one, with an Atom D2700 CPU. Because the game runs on Linux, it is not tied to this particular type or brand of motherboard or CPU, making it much more future-proof than Pinball 2000 was.
The motherboard connects to a solid-state drive which contains the operating system, the game code and all the assets.
Is this a PC ? Is this prone to the probs Mike was suggesting ? Is Heighway Pinball going to use a similar PC setup ?
Isnt Stern staying away from this technology, and havent they been using the system Mike said was much better ?
Mike or Gavs opinion here would be good, or both.
Brett
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Inside the metal box we find the PC board, the driver board, the amplifier board and a power supply.
The motherboard used here is a passively-cooled Intel mini-ITX one, with an Atom D2700 CPU. Because the game runs on Linux, it is not tied to this particular type or brand of motherboard or CPU, making it much more future-proof than Pinball 2000 was.
The motherboard connects to a solid-state drive which contains the operating system, the game code and all the assets.
There is some confusion here - the first line says "PC Board" - this measn "Printed Circuit Board" and that is fine. Further on it says "Motherboard" - this means "PC Motherboard" and that translates to "Personal Computer Motherboard" and I don't care what they say about the machine "Not being tied to a motherboard or CPU (Central Procesing Unit) like Pin2000 was" - this is the disaster part for any and every owner and that is pure SPIN!
DUMB DUMB DUMB and DUMBER!!!
Ajlaird has nailed it in one - PCs (Personal Computer Motherboards) go out of fashion several times a year and they only last a few years at best. The Motherboards in any machine using them will need replacing BUT, and here is the problem, in a few years there WILL NOT be a drop in replacement. the RAM will be different, the power supply will be diifferent, the processor will be different.
Stern is sticking with an embedded system (so far anyway) where an industry standard embedded controller chip runs a dedicated program (upgradeable yes, but dedicated never the less) and this has proved, in the pinball industry alone over 30 years, to be VERY reliable.
A close firend of mine in Brisbane operates digital jukeboxes in pubs and has done for many years. He is at his wits end with them (a run of about 40 machines). They are forever 'blue screen of deathing' - have dying motherboards etc etc - all the problems you get with an old PC. They have cost him money for years now and he is on the edge of pulling them all off site and throwing them away.
I repeat - if JJP is using a Personal Computer Motherboard the buyers will be VERY cheesed off in a few years time....this is NOT a suitable electronics system to run an item that has a lifespan of 20 years or more (IMO).
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Thanks Mike.
Hopefully when the WOZ machines land, (or the Full Throttle model pinny) you will be able to have a closer look and also check out the User manual/Schematics via the hard copy user manual or even online and provide further insight for both the JJP and Heighway models.
The only way they might be able to get past this, is if they produce a very large/decent amount of replacement backup components/boards, so u can easily just take out the buggered one and replace it with the identical brand new replacement. That will work i guess.
Lets see what happens when the Heighway Pinballs hit the sales floors, and the JJP model too.
Maybe, its a good question to ask Heighway Pinball when he is online here next. They must have a contingency plan ? !@#
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Let me just add a clarifying remark....
Why is it that EVERY (and I mean EVERY) - TV set, Air conditioner, DVD player, Digital camera, Motor car, Motor cycle, Microwave oven, desktop printer, ANY (and all) remote control handsets, Traffic lights, Commercial two way radios & the list goes on with pretty well anything that is controlled by an electronic 'brain' - in EVERY case these devices are ALL controlled by embedded processors NOT (repeat) NOT a Personal Computer (PC).
Ask yourself why that is................
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Let me just add a clarifying remark....
Why is it that EVERY (and I mean EVERY) - TV set, Air conditioner, DVD player, Digital camera, Motor car, Motor cycle, Microwave oven, desktop printer, ANY (and all) remote control handsets, Traffic lights, Commercial two way radios & the list goes on with pretty well anything that is controlled by an electronic 'brain' - in EVERY case these devices are ALL controlled by embedded processors NOT (repeat) NOT a Personal Computer (PC).
Ask yourself why that is................
You make a very valid point and I now understand what you meant, cheers.
I also wish we knew what the controller was going to be. But am not concerned as it is meant to be a fun money maker first and for most. Exactly like the pinball machines we play around with, restore and collect to this date. Spending heaps of $ repairing, modding and making pretty again. ^^^ These weren't meant to last, were they?
Just like most things in life if it is OLD we want to make NEW again. Everything goes full circle.
Technology changes and hopefully for the better ,more reliability comes into play also thus making life better. WE HOPE! !@#
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Nothing wrong with PC boards, it's the damn shitty op-systems that crash them out.....obviously keep away from windows, but most high-end industrial gear is using a linux kernal these days which is rock solid, and the other 1/2 go exclusively embedded....
However, nowadays they're a hybrid of embedded & linux running the show, but the boards themselves are FINE.
A motherboard can die (electronically) just as easily as an embedded board, and i've seen some shocker embedded RETAIL boards that just shouldn't be marketed to industrial markets, and yet they still get installed....
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IMO anything P.C. based has a use by date.
I am seeing this time and time again with the p2000 system
Backwards compatibility always has a use by date. Unless any company can "guarantee" they will be around when technology will dump the current day standard and they will make non cost efficient backwards compatible hardware and charge you the earth for it because unless they do this it is not viable then their PC based system will in our life time die and not have an off the shelf replacement.
ATM anything USB is safe until the standard on P.C's are changed.
do you really think that in 10 or 20 years P.C's will actually have "any" port or socket other than the 240v or power pack socket (if they even have that) ?
sockets / connectors cost money so companies will phase them out and only support wireless or blue tooth until blue tooth becomes too slow and another style of wireless interconnection will become the standard.
Beaky %$%
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Linux is FAR from stable - certainly much better than other operating systems but still nowhere near approaching the rock solid behaviour of an embedded software system.
I have lost count of the number of advertising signs I have personally seen that are PC (Personal Computer) based and have either locked up or are in constant re-boot mode in public places and running Linux.
Twice now (in the last year) I have been on the Cathay flight - Cairns>Hong Kong on an Airbus 340 and the entertainment system has been down and required numerous re-boots (Linux).
Maybe all of these things are Personal Computer related problems, maybe they are Linux related - I don't know BUT what I DO KNOW is that you simply NEVER see this with embedded systems, they simply do not crash.
I'm not going to harp on about it any longer because I have pretty strong views about it - I will sit back and watch the explosions!!!
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The other problem you have with PCs is that potentially you can have a batch of components which break down faster than normal. I have lost track of the number of computer motherboards that died pretty early on in their life due to poor quality electrolytic capacitors. These caps physically failed under heat and opened up, releasing electrolyte. Now, if you were desperate, you could remove and replace all the caps, but otherwise you just bought a new computer. The problem was not limited to one brand of motherboard, either.
Not saying this will happen again, but you are probably more vulnerable to this type of issue if you use a PC as a controller.
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i hear ya, but embedded components die all too often as well, with no return to life once they 'fuse-out' internally, at least linux can be restarted... ;-)
While Linux can have it's quirks (but far more stable than windows) it's often a mismatched hardware issue from cheap distributors who don't know any better.
I use the term Linux to mean a customised kernel for the task, not the regular linux you download off the net, which is what some manufactures will still do.
Embedded controllers, CPLD's/FPGA's are being churned out just as much (and just as cheaply) as mainstream motherboard components, in fact the chips today aren't as robust as they were just 10-20 years ago, that's chinese short-cutting for you!
anyhoo enough rants.
Go make a system out of bamboo & coconut shells and let us know how you get on ;-)
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does anyone have an answer as to why all these new pinball companies havent stuck with the same system Stern is using...is it because the Stern system cant run large LCD screens, or will that be a easy add on to the Stern system to have a LCD working with it.
Sterns system seems to work really well, doesnt take up much space at all, and there is bugger all to it, so why havent the others gone this route instead of PC based ideas/systems.
Seems to be efficient n cheap to build/use, so why not copy Sterns way ? I wouldnt mind hearing why people think these new companies havent done what Stern has done ?? what is the advantage oof staying Sterns way, what is the advantage of going the PC way, cause so far, we are hearing no benefit by going PC based, except maybe its easier to put together from shelf parts ??
anyone have an idea why they are not sticking with a tried n tru method ?? !@# !@# !@#
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Go make a system out of bamboo & coconut shells and let us know how you get on ;-)
Well, The Professor can make a radio out of coconuts so I'll bet he could make a pinball out of them as well - maybe even a Coconut Island re-make #*#
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/the-professor-radio.jpg)
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does anyone have an answer as to why all these new pinball companies havent stuck with the same system Stern is using...is it because the Stern system cant run large LCD screens, or will that be a easy add on to the Stern system to have a LCD working with it.
Sterns system seems to work really well, doesnt take up much space at all, and there is bugger all to it, so why havent the others gone this route instead of PC based ideas/systems.
Seems to be efficient n cheap to build/use, so why not copy Sterns way ? I wouldnt mind hearing why people think these new companies havent done what Stern has done ?? what is the advantage oof staying Sterns way, what is the advantage of going the PC way, cause so far, we are hearing no benefit by going PC based, except maybe its easier to put together from shelf parts ??
anyone have an idea why they are not sticking with a tried n tru method ?? !@# !@# !@#
Very simple - a PC (Personal Computer) already has all the LCD screen driver hardware built in - NOTHING to do - just plug a screen into the port that is already on the motherboard and anyone can find a programmer to write stuff for PC's
They are taking shortcuts - that is the ONLY reason. To drive an LCD screen using embedded systems is MUCH harder times 10
In the short term it will be great because we will have a myriad of new players making pinballs and probably a lot of great ideas will flow from that but I fear, in the longer term (after five years) we will have an awful lot of these new machines being junked because nobody will be able to keep them going. That includes JJP, Heighway and ANYONE who is going down the Personal Computer route.
My mate with the jukeboxes wishes he had never become involved with them - they are taking a massive amount of time, work effort and money and, in the end, break down again after a couple of months.
PCs simply ARE NOT reliable enough and they become obsolete far too quickly for this type of product IMO.
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OK. Great answer.
Hope they all make loads of spares like car companies do then......... !@#
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PCs simply ARE NOT reliable enough and they become obsolete far too quickly for this type of product IMO.
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glad you said IMO - in your opinion.
IMO - I disagree with your statement a lot. One simple reasoning is, it is dedicated to do one task for a dedicated outcome, the pinball game. It will not be designed to do anything other than what it is assigned to do , I think @.@. where as a PC is designed to try and keep up with the relevant information and new software of the day for what people ask, which generally is too much for it to do.
Also once all updates have been done and dusted etc. etc. ( final code ) why would you worry if it is outdated? It can only be used for this task and this task alone, also like many hobbyist, like us in pinball <..> there will ALWAYS be someone to keep the fire burning for the particular format. Christ! some people are still writing software for the Commodore VIC20! remember that one.
All the stuff we fix like system 1, EM's, etc. etc. and others are ALL outdated. We still pursue and achieve problematic solutions, yourself included.
I say embrace technology and see where it takes us.
Cheers
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PCs simply ARE NOT reliable enough and they become obsolete far too quickly for this type of product IMO.
glad you said IMO - in your opinion.
IMO - I disagree with your statement a lot. One simple reasoning is, it is dedicated to do one task for a dedicated outcome, the pinball game. It will not be designed to do anything other than what it is assigned to do , I think @.@. where as a PC is designed to try and keep up with the relevant information and new software of the day for what people ask, which generally is too much for it to do.
Also once all updates have been done and dusted etc. etc. ( final code ) why would you worry if it is outdated? It can only be used for this task and this task alone, also like many hobbyist, like us in pinball <..> there will ALWAYS be someone to keep the fire burning for the particular format. Christ! some people are still writing software for the Commodore VIC20! remember that one.
All the stuff we fix like system 1, EM's, etc. etc. and others are ALL outdated. We still pursue and achieve problematic solutions, yourself included.
I say embrace technology and see where it takes us.
Cheers
Good argument.
We have a pc at work that has been running non-stop for the last 15 years and it has NEVER faulted (it's a 486 DX2-66).
Pc's are not all unreliable, they are just built to a tolerance that allows for more failures per 100 units.
That's why industrial controllers are more expensive they have similar components but the manufacturing process maintains a smaller fail rate.
So you can get a bullet proof pc that will last 1000 years, only thing is there is less per 100, 1000 or 10,000 units.
It still doesn't stop an industrial or dedicated controller from being unreliable due to poor design as per SYS1 Gottliebs.
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PCs simply ARE NOT reliable enough and they become obsolete far too quickly for this type of product IMO.
glad you said IMO - in your opinion.
IMO - I disagree with your statement a lot. One simple reasoning is, it is dedicated to do one task for a dedicated outcome, the pinball game. It will not be designed to do anything other than what it is assigned to do , I think @.@. where as a PC is designed to try and keep up with the relevant information and new software of the day for what people ask, which generally is too much for it to do.
Also once all updates have been done and dusted etc. etc. ( final code ) why would you worry if it is outdated? It can only be used for this task and this task alone, also like many hobbyist, like us in pinball <..> there will ALWAYS be someone to keep the fire burning for the particular format. Christ! some people are still writing software for the Commodore VIC20! remember that one.
All the stuff we fix like system 1, EM's, etc. etc. and others are ALL outdated. We still pursue and achieve problematic solutions, yourself included.
I say embrace technology and see where it takes us.
Cheers
Good argument.
We have a pc at work that has been running non-stop for the last 15 years and it has NEVER faulted (it's a 486 DX2-66).
Pc's are not all unreliable, they are just built to a tolerance that allows for more failures per 100 units.
That's why industrial controllers are more expensive they have similar components but the manufacturing process maintains a smaller fail rate.
So you can get a bullet proof pc that will last 1000 years, only thing is there is less per 100, 1000 or 10,000 units.
It still doesn't stop an industrial or dedicated controller from being unreliable due to poor design as per SYS1 Gottliebs.
Modern computers are produced with planned obsolescence. Like almost everything modern (cars, tv's, jet skis, Sterns)..Unfortunately I think the biggest problem is that designing a pinball machine around a specific type of technology, which is designed to have a life span then fail, is going to cause problems. Will computers be around in 10 years. Yes.
Will they be like what you are sitting in front of now? No.
Whilst adjusting and tipping my tin foil hat - a very interesting doco for your viewing pleasure:
[/youtube]
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Good video Marty.
Time takes care of all problems,literally.
Lets see if a JJP machine resets regularly or often if powered up 24 hrs a day, week in and week out like a Stern. Surely, it should run for a very long time without resets, but we are talking a PC here, so will it run 7 days a week, 24 hrs a day without resets/reboots. !@# !@#
We will know when someone sees one sighted in Australia in 2013 or 2014. Because both good and bad news travels very quickly, anything and everything imperfect on the new WOZ (or any new pinball title) travels at the speed of light.
At the moment, the WOZ machine is fully dressed and ready for shipping (well in the next 3 or 4 months hopefully) but it wont be long til every man n his dog from every other pinball company strips one down to its undies and we learn all the hidden stuff.
If a JJP model can run 7 days a week, 24 hrs a day, for 12 months non stop, and not have a hassle I will be happy. I would then want to inspect all the boards for any fatigue from heat. This will be the way to truly test this newer PC direction some pinball companies are travelling in..... !@#
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I'm with Cavey on this one................
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Been out of the loop for many years now, but industrial pc's where fairly sturdy and didn't pose any more problems compared to say Fanuc controls etc. Also keeping a pc on 24/7 I thought was better than switching it continually on and off. I thought the initial power up was where the stress factor came into play. I haven't had a server go in my time I think due to it being constantly on !@#
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Planned obsolescence is something the manufacturer creates because the consumer wants it. The driving factor is price and the public usually accepts a cheaper alternative.
Let me give you an example. Our eight old dining table chairs were in need of new seat padding after almost 20 years of good use. The timber is excellent and they were manufactured at Melchair Pty Ltd Melbourne in 1995. My wife phoned around for some quotes and the price for refurbishing ranged from $1000 to $3000 for eight chairs! Now, we could have bought a brand new table and 8 chairs made in China for less than the lowest quote.
I said no way Jose to all of this and spent this weekend refurbishing the chairs myself. Bought the best padding at Clark rubber and the chairs are ready for the next 20 years. Total outlay was $100 and 2 sore hands and wrists.
Fortunately, you can do this sort of repair on good old products if they are taken care of. Unfortunately today, too many products are built to a price and are only good while they last. In many cases, the consumer will change the product before it dies. This is what 90% of the people want and the drivers are price and style.
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My attitude was always you get what you pay for.
There should be a range of choice for those that want/can only afford a bargain, but there should also be products available for those with more expendable income that want to buy quality - super A mart vs Domayne for example. Both provide a new lounge chair, one will last 5 years, the other 20 years.
I would hope WOZ is providing quality at $9.5k when you can pick up a new Stern for $6k.
If redundancy due to PC board is expected in 5 years - don't market it so high! The product is only as good as its weakest component - no other amount of bling will help if the thing doesn't boot every time you try and start it up!
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If redundancy due to PC board is expected in 5 years - don't market it so high!
I still think there is some misunderstandings about what I am trying to say...
PC board = "Printed Circuit Board" - that's fine and ALL machines are doing well with good quality here
PC = "Personal Computer" - the thing on your home/office desk - this is what Heighway and JJP are basing their machine on for the controlling system and THIS is not on IMO.
It is the Personal Computer part that will cause problems and I'm afraid it makes NO DIFFERENCE what you pay for a motherboard - they are ALL only made to last a few years -
THIS is what the problem is - Stern is sticking with embedded controllers NOT PC's and they have proven to be reliable over 30 years.
Turn your computer on and wait 5 mins for it to boot - same with your JJP and Heighway - it just isn't going to cut it
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"Turn your computer on and wait 5 mins for it to boot - same with your JJP and Heighway - it just isn't going to cut it"
Tablets and SSDs are almost instantaneous. The long boot ups will be a thing of the past. Hard drives are the weakest link in PC reliability and hassles. SSDs are coming down in price, are very reliable and their read times are much faster.
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If Stern or whomever is going to go the future way of LCD or whatever new display they choose, won't that have a PC driving it also?. As Freiherr mentioned it is generally the HD that causes issues. BTW I have a MAC which is AWESOME, excellent OS &&
Some really mixed views on this thread. I would like to see if a manufacturer jumps in and expresses their operating system features and benefits?
The point of The light build conspiracy is probably a little archaic by now. All it really points out to me is that some manufacturers are greedy and cut costs buy using short cuts and inferior materials to manufacture.
Let's face it there is a market for Mercedes and for Kia ( as a obvious example ) I know which one I prefer if I could afford it.
Point is that, there are premium products and also products built down to budget specification which generally use old technology and spare parts.
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It's amazing how all of you guys who think it's fine and dandy to use personal computers to run commercial equipment like pinballs never put their hands up to buy my mates jukebox run???
If you owned that I can guarantee you would have a very different opinion of things.
Apple OS - PPfftt - useless except for web browsing and graphic design and practically NOTHING else!
SSD - great but expensive and (as yet) fairly unreliable
Anyway - you all rush out and buy these things - I hope I'm proved wrong......
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It's amazing how all of you guys who think it's fine and dandy to use personal computers to run commercial equipment like pinballs never put their hands up to buy my mates jukebox run???
If you owned that I can guarantee you would have a very different opinion of things.
Apple OS - PPfftt - useless except for web browsing and graphic design and practically NOTHING else!
SSD - great but expensive and (as yet) fairly unreliable
Anyway - you all rush out and buy these things - I hope I'm proved wrong......
Mike, I can see your point, this issue did make me hesitant in getting on the WoZ bandwagon. Not so much for the PC running the game but the LCD. It will stop working one day, who is to say if a replacement that is the right size will be avakiabe?
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Mike, I can see your point, this issue did make me hesitant in getting on the WoZ bandwagon. Not so much for the PC running the game but the LCD. It will stop working one day, who is to say if a replacement that is the right size will be avakiabe?
I think LCD's shouldn't be too much of a problem as there will pretty well always be something that could be shoehorned into the machine. The PC Motherboard however, that's a different thing......look at the current PC situation, change your mainboard AND then all the drivers, often the RAM, CPU and power supply as well.....these machines WILL BE NO DIFFERENT - IMO
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I know
I upgraded my PC just before Xmas
The only components that I could use from 6 years ago was the power supply and the cabinet
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I know
I upgraded my PC just before Xmas
The only components that I could use from 6 years ago was the power supply and the cabinet
You were lucky you could use the power supply :lol - the case and power supply are also the cheapest parts of a PC - LOL
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Pure paranoia.
Mr HOMEPIN, my apple is a doing EXACTLY as it was meant to do and doing it very well. If it wasn't for more and more demands by the consumer wanting it to do more then it will be fine.
You are still missing my point, IF this is a PC based product then it is designed to run one thing - a pinball machine - that's it, nothing else, NADA, ZIP, diddly squat.
Therefore maintenance and product life comes into it. We are still maintaining pinball machines now with the boards you and others produce, coil sleeves, coils etc. the list goes on. The $ we spend on them now keeping them going is ridiculous. So what if 1 or 20 years down the road the motherboard shits itself, if it is still FUN we will fix and probably make it better.
I am NOT having a dig at anyone, though you make it appear to me that we will be doing so much more with this than just using it in a pinball machine.
Everything has a use by date , built in or not. Why spread fear for people who may or are buying PC based pinballs?
Maybe it is just Microsoft you don't like %.% me too! APPLE through and through.
this is my last comment as it seems to go around and around in circles and getting personal. I just wanted to know ^^^
p.s. JUKEBOXES are a dead industry - maybe they will make a comeback too. Another can of worms
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Go make a system out of bamboo & coconut shells and let us know how you get on ;-)
Well, The Professor can make a radio out of coconuts so I'll bet he could make a pinball out of them as well - maybe even a Coconut Island re-make #*#
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/the-professor-radio.jpg)
Professor Homepin!
Hard at work on his latest NON PC based invention. %.% %.% <.>
Sorry Mike, couldn't resist!
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Pure paranoia.
You are still missing my point, IF this is a PC based product then it is designed to run one thing - a pinball machine - that's it, nothing else, NADA, ZIP, diddly squat.
Therefore maintenance and product life comes into it. We are still maintaining pinball machines now with the boards you and others produce, coil sleeves, coils etc. the list goes on.
Absolutely NOT! This is my entire point. I'm not getting personal - it's FACT....
If you fit one of my boards, you screw it into the machine, plug it in and away it goes - JOB FINISHED.....to replace a motherboard you need to install all new SOFTWARE drivers (that suit the new board) and probably replace RAM, micro, power supply etc etc -
This is VASTLY different to repairing an embedded pinball and will likely be beyond most people.
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Pure paranoia.
You are still missing my point, IF this is a PC based product then it is designed to run one thing - a pinball machine - that's it, nothing else, NADA, ZIP, diddly squat.
Therefore maintenance and product life comes into it. We are still maintaining pinball machines now with the boards you and others produce, coil sleeves, coils etc. the list goes on.
Absolutely NOT! This is my entire point. I'm not getting personal - it's FACT....
If you fit one of my boards, you screw it into the machine, plug it in and away it goes - JOB FINISHED.....to replace a motherboard you need to install all new SOFTWARE drivers (that suit the new board) and probably replace RAM, micro, power supply etc etc -
This is VASTLY different to repairing an embedded pinball and will likely be beyond most people.
Where the problem lies is the complexity of a PC - it is made up of a mainboard or motherboard, CPU, RAM, power supply, and some sort of disk. All of these are designed to work together and there is probably an 18-24 month window, sometimes more but sometimes less, before stocks of certain items become unavailable. Intel seem to have numerous CPU form factors which quickly become obsolete - AMD seems to be a lot better in that respect. If a component dies in 4 years time, it is highly likely that you will not be able to easily replace that component unless it is the disk (however, after the disk, the motherboard is most likely to go). You will then be forced to replace the motherboard and CPU, and most likely RAM as the old RAM is unlikely to work in the new motherboard. You are also likely to have to replace the power supply because it won't have the new connectors required.
OK, so you have the computer physically working again. But will the operating system still work on the new computer? Again, unless the manufacturer has kept the operating system up to date and working on current PC technology, this is highly unlikely. Depending on what was used as a base (eg Linux) you may get lucky and be able to update the OS to the point where it does work. Or perhaps some genius can write drivers for you if they are using some other OS. This is what happened to Pin 2000 - it relies on a specific CPU/GPU component (the Cyrix MediaGX CPU) that is no longer available BUT the software is written around it and won't work.
OK, now you have the computer and software working. But what about the interface from the hardware to the PC? Unless the manufacturer has used something generic (such as USB inputs which will still be around) then it is probable they have developed an interface card using PCI or PCI Express. But in 4 years time PCI will be totally gone - PCI Express will still be around and SHOULD be backwards compatible. Fast forward a few more years and PCI Express is a dinosaur.
Whether the PC is running one application or not is totally irrelevant to the lifespan of the PC (although it should stop it from crashing too much due to software issues).