Author Topic: Sloppy sloppy seconds ! Yuk. Sited pins play like a bowl of custard !  (Read 1230 times)

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Offline GORGAR 1

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My ACDC has thousands of games on it and the flippers are as strong as the day I unboxed it :) maybe the lack of maintenance and kids continuity flipping the flippers lol hasn't helped the TZ games??

Offline Caveoftreasures

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Why don't people change the Stern coils out to another version made by another manufacturer ? Instead of the cheap single windings ?
Could someone like TimeZone do that and get a lot more use before maintainence.

What about the Pop bumpers going weak ? Same issue.
Again, could u change out the parts for others with more oomph ? It seems like the most sensible answer ?
Has anyone done that to a Stern or are u stuck using the Stern single wind coils ??
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Offline Homepin

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Why don't people change the Stern coils out to another version made by another manufacturer ? Instead of the cheap single windings ?
Could someone like TimeZone do that and get a lot more use before maintainence.

What about the Pop bumpers going weak ? Same issue.
Again, could u change out the parts for others with more oomph ? It seems like the most sensible answer ?
Has anyone done that to a Stern or are u stuck using the Stern single wind coils ??

It isn't just the coil it is all of the driver electronics that goes with it - the savings would have been considerable for Stern when they did away with all of this (in the DE days)
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Offline Caveoftreasures

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Nothing is ever simple is it.
I will study my new Sterns and will check out some 5 and 10 year old Sterns and will see if there is any physical differences with the flipper mechs and pop bumper mechanisms.

Why would Stern have all of a sudden changed their flipper coils ?
Is it to match JJP or the MM remake ?
Was it feedback from Stern customers ?
Anyone hear anything official as to why the change ?
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Beware of Stalkers & Walkers when playing The Walking Dead

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Offline Homepin

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Nothing is ever simple is it.
I will study my new Sterns and will check out some 5 and 10 year old Sterns and will see if there is any physical differences with the flipper mechs and pop bumper mechanisms.

Why would Stern have all of a sudden changed their flipper coils ?
Is it to match JJP or the MM remake ?
Was it feedback from Stern customers ?
Anyone hear anything official as to why the change ?

There is no sudden change that I am aware of - they have had flipper problems for 10 years...overheating coils due to the way in which they are controlled electronically - nothing to do with poor coil quality but more to do with poor electronic design IMO.
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Offline Brunswick Brawler

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Quote
Quote from Homepin:






"How pinball machines work, and what to do about to do about it when they don't":
I hope the book will focus more on the 'how it work, rather than on the repairs side, as is nicely implied by the title.  I also hope it is a high quality print & binding.

The few repair books I've seen are printed as cheap as possible, bordering on being disposable.  There is a missing market for a 'coffee table' type book for people who simply want to know the workings of a machine and read it beside their 'coffee table' and not in a garage.


Location Pins:
I've found the best maintained machines are the once that operators charge $2 per game.  Those same operators always rotate games and invest in new games.  The worst maintained games are never rotated - they are normally $1 per game.  I've only been into pinball for the last 3 years or so, and I initially thought $2 per game was high.  I'd now rather support the top tier '$2' operators, rather than the bottom feeder '$1' operators who never by new machines.  If we only had $1 operators, the industry would be dead.  You get what you pay for.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 09:02:52 PM by Brunswick Brawler »

Offline robm

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Re:
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2015, 09:06:09 PM »
In terms of the hardware parts in modern stern and wms flippers...plungers and coil stops are exactly the same dimensions.  Save some $$$ and buy wms plungers and links and coil stops and sleeves

Offline Caveoftreasures

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So why now have Stern changed their flipper design, coils etc ?
Behind every garage door could be a pinball collectors
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Into  Stern -JJP - Cars , Road Bikes- Jet Skis - Star Trek n Sci-Fi & Electronics    
Beware of Stalkers & Walkers when playing The Walking Dead

My 7yr old son Hunter is my best mate in the world !

Offline Homepin

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So why now have Stern changed their flipper design, coils etc ?

It is reported that with the new SPIKE system they have returned to (conventional?) twin winding flipper coils which many (including Beaky & myself) have suggested they do for some time.

This means they would now have a PULL IN winding (fast, snapy, high current) then a HOLD winding (low current, holding power only) BOTH on the same coil former (3 lugs and wires running to the coil).

The way they HAVE done it up to now is electronically switching the coil on and off thousands of times a second to lower the power "seen" by the coil BUT the coil still gets hit thousands of times a second with the full voltage across a high power coil NOT a hold coil with many more windings and maybe this causes the overheating reported by many - I don't know for certain.

I have no idea if they have changed the mechanical bits but I would doubt it and they probably don't need to as I think the design mechanically is quite sound.
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Offline Retropin

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So why now have Stern changed their flipper design, coils etc ?

Have they changed their flipper design??

Stern have had the single winding for some time now. Its easy to assume that when we get change its because we have a more developed product and obviously its changed for the better. problem is that this is not always true.. cost to produce will always override most  decisions.
At some point Stern realised that if they made a single winding holding coil, pulsed it electronically in an attempt to cool, they would save say $1... go make some 3000 machines and you have saved $3000 in production. Don't get me wrong, pinball has always been like this.. cost predicts game. That's why a lot of collectors prefer single player GOTTLIEBS.. each machine is given X amount of dollars to produce.. add another 1 or 3 score reels and cost comes away from gameplay design, artwork etc.
If Sterns games are playing like crap after 3 months onsite, then obviously, something is amiss. But.. Sterns main market now comes from HUO and enthusiasts being enthusiasts.. they maintain the things themselves!
So does  the main focus on a coil manufacture be for the home use over a year or two or operator sited for 3 months... is the operator going to repeat buy or is the collector?

Offline Retropin

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So why now have Stern changed their flipper design, coils etc ?

It is reported that with the new SPIKE system they have returned to (conventional?) twin winding flipper coils which many (including Beaky & myself) have suggested they do for some time.

This means they would now have a PULL IN winding (fast, snapy, high current) then a HOLD winding (low current, holding power only) BOTH on the same coil former (3 lugs and wires running to the coil).

The way they HAVE done it up to now is electronically switching the coil on and off thousands of times a second to lower the power "seen" by the coil BUT the coil still gets hit thousands of times a second with the full voltage across a high power coil NOT a hold coil with many more windings and maybe this causes the overheating reported by many - I don't know for certain.

I have no idea if they have changed the mechanical bits but I would doubt it and they probably don't need to as I think the design mechanically is quite sound.

Ok.. so dual winding from now on....good move.

Offline Lachy

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Played a stern mustang at moose heads Canberra, and the flipper buttons were all gooey, didn't get the button push feel, more like pushing a piece of Playdoh. There is also 2 at the arcade across from Hoyts Belconnen that play like crap. I guess the days of playing sited pinballs are over, there just not profitable. Home collections it is!
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Offline Strangeways

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Is this one of them Stern bashing threads?... im so sick of the bashing.. so so sick... !!!

Please don't help another thread go to shit :)

I wasn't..

Ok cool but I'd love to hear some stories of how regularly ops maintained games back in your day :) not saying your old lol but how different was it? Where ops only interested in coin and not maintaining games? Where coin boxes emptied them Pf was wiped over? I couldn't imagine they would spend much time on a game as there would have been so many sighted games the tech guy just wouldn't have time?

There was actual documentation with Bally and GTB EMs about keeping the playfields clean, re rubbering and re globing to increase takings.

Not all operators knew what they were doing. Many went broke, and I remember there was a female operator based in Geelong that had only Sterns onsite, and she went broke very quickly. Dad bought all their games (Big Game, Meteor, Galaxy, Dracula and a heap more). I remember the day as it was hot and several trips had to be made. The machines were filthy. Dad also bought out another operator in the SE suburbs. An Egyptian guy that had no clue about repairing them.

The 70's was a boom time as the machines were built to last - especially EMs. Every school holidays was spend stripping and cleaning games. No games were ever moved from one location to another without being brought back to the workshop and serviced. So I played many games during the holidays. In these days, no one was selling parts. There was no internet and the only way to order parts was either by calling the USA suppliers on the phone or by this strange Telex setup. I still have some of these original manifests. They would be sent by boat - so everything was SLOW. Or it came in the next container. I remember that when Dad ran out of rubbers, he re used the old ones by stretching a handful across a panel with pegs (for each size rubber) and then spraying with Nifti (this is the 70's - way before it became so popular), and washing with an old paintbrush. Then rinse with a hose and leave in the sun for a while. They were simply re used. Did the same with the Jukebox records. Filled a washtub with warm water and Nifti. Scrub with an old paintbrush and then hang on some fishing line between poles. The middle section never peeled off - I could never work that out - it was like it had a layer of wax !

Every single machine on route was presented 100% working. This was a small operation of 200-300 machines on site with just my Dad and my Uncle covering the northern suburbs. Every wog cafe in Melbourne had a least one of his bingos and a Jukebox. I used to spend HOURS as a teenager holding a lamp behind a Miami Beach, or Showtime - whatever the Bingo was. In his own Amusement Centres (not called "arcades" yet) - He had up to 12 Bingos against a wall, 10 pinballs, a Jukebox, a soccar table, 2 billiard tables and EM Gun games. The bigger places had over 20 games easily. some just had 5-6 Bingos "behind the curtain" out the back. Every Monday, machines were emptied. It took all day, and sometimes 2 days. Over a week period, all the games were cleared.

The SOLE reason why Dad's operation was successful was because he worked VERY hard - sometimes 16 hours a day. He was the definition of a "workaholic". Between him and my Uncle (Ex PNG), they knew EVERYTHING about ANYTHING Electromechanical. The SS era changed a lot of that. But that is a story for another time !

In their day, Dad's operation was easily the best. Best machines that very seldom broke down. Dad was affectionally known as "The Professor" as he ALWAYS wore a dustcoat, carried a massive toolkit, and he always fixed any game onsite. Part of his success was also buying straight from the factory - he was always putting money back into the business. He owned some of the Amusement Centres and the cafes.

Back then, the industry was at it's peak. Imagine asking 2 technicians to look after 200-300 machines on location and have them all in perfect working order ? If the games are presented well - it could work - but if they are poorly maintained and not fixed the first time - then it would be like watching the Benny Hill song from location to location..

It was like a different planet in the 60's - 90's. But the 70's was easily the best time period for me.
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Offline Strangeways

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Nino can u have a close look at the LE Walking Dead machine u have at your workshop and compare to any other type of flipper mechs or pop bumper mechs and give an opinion if they are the standard accross the industry etc.
That way, it will tell me if the TimeZone machines are sloppy from massive massive usage or if the flipper and pop bumper mechs are just lighter in design than what they used to be ? Or if the design is fine etc.
Your quick study may give some insight to the issue ?

No noticeable difference.

I think the games at Timezone are not suffering from over use at all. All machines need time to settle and they should have been checked by the operator after a month onsite. This sounds like poor design with the flippers and lazy maintenance. The pops should still be good.

What is really annoying is that I've pulled machines out of containers and although they are filthy, they still work. These are less than a year old.

Call the operator - or better still - contact your guy at Stern AND let AMD know. This is really a lousy misrepresentation of pinball.
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Offline Slash

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Is this one of them Stern bashing threads?... im so sick of the bashing.. so so sick... !!!

Please don't help another thread go to shit :)

I wasn't..

Ok cool but I'd love to hear some stories of how regularly ops maintained games back in your day :) not saying your old lol but how different was it? Where ops only interested in coin and not maintaining games? Where coin boxes emptied them Pf was wiped over? I couldn't imagine they would spend much time on a game as there would have been so many sighted games the tech guy just wouldn't have time?

There was actual documentation with Bally and GTB EMs about keeping the playfields clean, re rubbering and re globing to increase takings.

Not all operators knew what they were doing. Many went broke, and I remember there was a female operator based in Geelong that had only Sterns onsite, and she went broke very quickly. Dad bought all their games (Big Game, Meteor, Galaxy, Dracula and a heap more). I remember the day as it was hot and several trips had to be made. The machines were filthy. Dad also bought out another operator in the SE suburbs. An Egyptian guy that had no clue about repairing them.

The 70's was a boom time as the machines were built to last - especially EMs. Every school holidays was spend stripping and cleaning games. No games were ever moved from one location to another without being brought back to the workshop and serviced. So I played many games during the holidays. In these days, no one was selling parts. There was no internet and the only way to order parts was either by calling the USA suppliers on the phone or by this strange Telex setup. I still have some of these original manifests. They would be sent by boat - so everything was SLOW. Or it came in the next container. I remember that when Dad ran out of rubbers, he re used the old ones by stretching a handful across a panel with pegs (for each size rubber) and then spraying with Nifti (this is the 70's - way before it became so popular), and washing with an old paintbrush. Then rinse with a hose and leave in the sun for a while. They were simply re used. Did the same with the Jukebox records. Filled a washtub with warm water and Nifti. Scrub with an old paintbrush and then hang on some fishing line between poles. The middle section never peeled off - I could never work that out - it was like it had a layer of wax !

Every single machine on route was presented 100% working. This was a small operation of 200-300 machines on site with just my Dad and my Uncle covering the northern suburbs. Every wog cafe in Melbourne had a least one of his bingos and a Jukebox. I used to spend HOURS as a teenager holding a lamp behind a Miami Beach, or Showtime - whatever the Bingo was. In his own Amusement Centres (not called "arcades" yet) - He had up to 12 Bingos against a wall, 10 pinballs, a Jukebox, a soccar table, 2 billiard tables and EM Gun games. The bigger places had over 20 games easily. some just had 5-6 Bingos "behind the curtain" out the back. Every Monday, machines were emptied. It took all day, and sometimes 2 days. Over a week period, all the games were cleared.

The SOLE reason why Dad's operation was successful was because he worked VERY hard - sometimes 16 hours a day. He was the definition of a "workaholic". Between him and my Uncle (Ex PNG), they knew EVERYTHING about ANYTHING Electromechanical. The SS era changed a lot of that. But that is a story for another time !

In their day, Dad's operation was easily the best. Best machines that very seldom broke down. Dad was affectionally known as "The Professor" as he ALWAYS wore a dustcoat, carried a massive toolkit, and he always fixed any game onsite. Part of his success was also buying straight from the factory - he was always putting money back into the business. He owned some of the Amusement Centres and the cafes.

Back then, the industry was at it's peak. Imagine asking 2 technicians to look after 200-300 machines on location and have them all in perfect working order ? If the games are presented well - it could work - but if they are poorly maintained and not fixed the first time - then it would be like watching the Benny Hill song from location to location..

It was like a different planet in the 60's - 90's. But the 70's was easily the best time period for me.

Great story, it must have been awesome having a dad in this industry ad a kid and getting to play all those games as they came in for repair/clean.