The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => General Discussion => General Pinball Discussion => Topic started by: pinball god on May 19, 2015, 08:31:50 PM
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Seeing a bit of a resurgence does anyone think williams would ever get back into the biz? I suppose not is the answer but then I'm not in the know as to what they have as far as infrastructure etc to get back into manufacturing. I wish they would though.
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Unlikely, but then what the hell would I know. @.@
I'm with you though Rob, I wish they would too, it would be great to have another manufacture who could pump out the games at a decent pace.
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'WMS' disintegrated as far as pinball manufacturing goes. That team has gone. If they were to venture into a 'new line of business' being pinball, they would have all the same struggles that other new pinball companies have had recently.
Even if they did, the reputation that Williams had earn't in the 90s would have no bearing on a startup WMS pinball division.
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It would be a wonderful thing for pinball but sadly I think the Williams days are done. A major competitor would be great - for innovation & pricing. I worry JJP is too family oriented & a bit slow with product to really compete strongly. Don't know what to think of Spooky. Really it's only Homepin that leaves a hope. I could be wrong, but I'd love Williams back if it were possible.
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Something to think about...
If Stern were to closed down, how would that shock the pinball community?
I'd say: JJP would be seen as the Stern of 1999, and a Stern shutdown would be seen similarly to the Williams shutdown.
...Many of the team at Williams are at Stern now. So where is the sole of Williams now?
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Think Stern will stay strong and grow stronger. Well , I hope so anyway.
I think the start up costs from Williams to do pinball again would negate the investment.
Companies and investors now want fast turn around on their investments.
Since Stern has all the great staff from the Williams days, and Gary Stern has given them all a great pay packet for the past 16 years, I think almost all the staff would repay Gary Stern with loyalty and stay.
I think it was an interesting question to pose for a thread.
Who knows what the pinball industry will look like in another 15 years.
I hope JJP and all companies do great. More pins out there the better.
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Will Williams return to pinball? Nup
Would pinball survive long if Stern closed? No
The new guys are not producing enough new titlesto keep pinball fresh
JJP, one game every two and a half years
Highway have only shown one game, is it in production yet?
Mike is still to show us TAG
The rest of the boutique makers cannot fill demand
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With all this demand got me wondering if it would be viable for a successful company that had been in the industry to restart. I'll pose this follow up hypothetical.
If williams did start up again and kickstart where they left off (not necessarily p2000 but say cc) would it be a matter of a short while before they would be number one again and secondly if so could they regain say 90% of the market which surely would make the re-entry viable????
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It would not be profitable enough
Williams make gambling machines
Easier to make and more reliable
It is smarter to devote the development time and the manufacturing space to the thing that wwill return the better orofit
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Will Williams return to pinball? Nup
Would pinball survive long if Stern closed? No
The new guys are not producing enough new titlesto keep pinball fresh
JJP, one game every two and a half years
Highway have only shown one game, is it in production yet?
Mike is still to show us TAG
The rest of the boutique makers cannot fill demand
+1
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With all this demand got me wondering if it would be viable for a successful company that had been in the industry to restart. I'll pose this follow up hypothetical.
If williams did start up again and kickstart where they left off (not necessarily p2000 but say cc) would it be a matter of a short while before they would be number one again and secondly if so could they regain say 90% of the market which surely would make the re-entry viable????
Great hypothetical PG. If the hypothetical assumed Williams were back with their factory & had their main players in place (execs, designers etc), then given their huge fan base surely they'd be a serious competitor. But how quickly could they innovate from their final platform to tech equivalent/ better than current players? It's certainly fun to think about - imagine the quality of those games in the 1990s being kept at the same level but with cutting-edge tech *%*
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If this was ever to happen, it would need to have been started months ago. Pinball collectors are more than happy to pay huge amounts of money to "start up" companies without a track record. Place the WMS name up in lights again, and pinheads would not go to the boutique manufacturers. It is that simple. In my eyes, Homepin will eventually fill that void, as JJP can't.
Stern will be around for a long time and will most likely be producing pins for many years to come - as long as they understand their market is now the home collector - so they need to be a bit more realistic with their pricing.
From a logistical and practical point of view, the only way WMS can ever get off the ground is for the profits from the gambling games etc be pumped into the new pinball venture. That will never happen.
I think the MM remake ideas are filling that void. Williams are kinda already there.
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Williams are making far too much from pokies to even bother about pinball.
Homepin has spent two years building a factory and designing and manufacturing all parts from scratch. This takes a huge amount of time, patience and money but we plan to be here for the long haul.
We have not released a machine yet because we are still in the process of making the thousands of parts used in a pinball machine. Once that mammoth task has been completed we will be in a position to turn out several titles a year just like Stern. All those years ago Stern had a massive head start as they took over Data East so most of the parts were already designed and in production.
In between designing up all of the pinball parts we have re-designed the Hankin table and shipped out seven containers of these - this has also taken time but it will be time well spent as we ironed out lots of bugs in the assembly process - some that you would simply never even realise until you actually MAKE something like we did. This learning experience will pay handsomely when we start producing pinball machines. We are also in the process of developing several other arcade machines.
Designing a particular pinball machine is only 5% of the picture as some other start-ups are finding and relying on outside suppliers is a recipe for disaster (as JJP found out early in the piece). We have several titles ready for production as soon as all parts are completed - remember the Homepin factory comprises a FULL wood shop with CNC machines and cabinetmakers, a screen printing facility, an electronic design and assembly facility, a FULL metal fabrication shop with milling machines, lathes, folders etc and the final assembly lines for component parts as well as the actual machine assembly & packing lines.
We manufacture everything in house UNLIKE any other manufacturer. Stern outsources cabinets, electronics, playfields, mechanisms and who knows what else to outside suppliers, Homepin does not.
Stern have spent more than six months simply MOVING their factory from one place to another - I started from an empty building with nothing, in a country where I don't speak the language, to having a fully functioning factory producing merchantable goods within 18 months. [and boy did I have some problems and dramas along the way - watch for the book - it will make an interesting read].
Patience is needed and setting up Homepin has been tarnished by the efforts of a couple of others who were either straight out con men or simply misunderstood the gravity of the project they were undertaking.
We have several machines ready to go, and the time is fast approaching but they cannot be rushed! There will be a lot of very surprised people when Homepin starts shipping pinballs I can guarantee that!
We have already covered off on lots of things that most never even contemplate such as packing, storage, shipping logistics and Customs & AQIS requirements for various countries as well as electrical and RoHS certification. Asking me for "a look at the playfield or cabinet art" makes me laugh as that is so insignificant at this point in the building of Homepin although I appreciate that is what most pinball enthusiasts want to see above all else.
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Great info Mike, fascinating insight into the process.
And even Williams didn't even make a lot of stuff themselves - playfields, cabinets, were all outsourced (and probably lots more too).
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Great info Mike, fascinating insight into the process.
And even Williams didn't even make a lot of stuff themselves - playfields, cabinets, were all outsourced (and probably lots more too).
What isn't known by many is that practically all WMS mechanisms you buy as spare parts are ALL made in China!!!!!! They have been for decades along with many (but not all) of the plastic parts.
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Mike, what you are undertaking is mammoth, almost unfathomable (almost a pin pun) - to design & manufacture your own parts with an end goal of complete retail pins is huge. The patience, resources, skills, courage, vision & time required is more than most of us would even comprehend. I for one hope you do damn well. Cheers ^^^
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....all that top stuff AND still finds the time to lay down the law on forums ^^^
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Ok williams comin back is like me winning tattslotto. But I'm still interested in people's thoughts re if they did re enter the market. Has stern progressed in quality, innovation, creativity to give williams a run for their money or would it be a given williams would lead the market again. Lets say some of the greats joined them, j pop, s ritchie and say lawlor and the rest remained with stern and Williams have a factory again. If stern keeps their stronghold how long before williams would be a real threat? The floor is open to you.
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Has stern progressed in quality, innovation, creativity .....
Creativity? Isn't the latest game a copy of a Bally from 1978? !^!
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Perhaps to take a different line then: If Williams were still around today...
Williams would be exactly like Stern. Stern is a mature business. They are in the business of making money - so to were Williams. With a smaller market in the mid 2000, Williams would have done what Stern did - cut back on the playfield. With an growth market that is here now, including a new home market, Williams would gear up again - as Stern has.
...Have no doubt about it - if Williams continued they would be exactly like Stern. They would both be mature experienced businesses, likely with the same mature approaches. Williams would have cut back their playfields - after all, they took it one step further and shut down the business in 1999.
Design creativity cannot override management direction. When all your focus is on creativity, and the business side is ignored such as JJPs crazy line "we are not designing with a calculator"... well you saw what happened there - the calculator eventually came out. JJP eventually said that the 'no calculator' approach was wrong, and that one needs to know when to 'stop' the designers who have a creative tendency to never finish.
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If Williams reopened, unless the design and mechanical engineering staff from Stern were offered double salary and five year contracts, it would be too risky to leave Stern.
Even if the massive money and water tight contracts got them to leave, they run the risk of losing Gary Sterns trust and future loyalty since he has been good to all these guys since 1999.
Too much risk to leave Stern for most I think.
Also, it takes a massive team to pull off what Stern is currently doing, so u might get a third of a great great team, but u need every member to be great for it to work.
Maybe not enough pinball experienced people to go around and could the market handle another big operation like Stern. Maybe too many people eating out of the one pie.
Scale of economies, maybe it would mean no one makes a profit.
Just glad Stern has carried the torch.
Gary Stern has pulled off a miracle with his decades of business savy.
The man is a genius. Not many Gary Sterns around.
Who would be the Gary Stern of a new Williams ? Who could fill such a role. ?
Who is around today who could do that. JJP tried but they are only ten percent of Stern.
Big role to fill before Williams could launch regardless of $$.
Great thread.
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Designing a particular pinball machine is only 5% of the picture as some other start-ups are finding and relying on outside suppliers is a recipe for disaster (as JJP found out early in the piece).
Very interesting comments, thanks Mike. It certainly seems that the outsourcing of parts has been a major stumbling block for both JJP and now Heighway whose production line has also been held up while they wait for parts which were not up to standard to be revised. It will be very interesting to watch how your very different approach to pinball manufacturing develops in the second half of the year.
Thanks also for posting the updates on your facebook page, it's fascinating to get these behind-the-scenes glimpses of what is going on in the factory.