The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: ajlaird on December 14, 2008, 04:37:41 PM
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1989 Bally Mousin' Around - right flipper coil is overheating and flipper stays up (or is that the other way around). Where do I start?
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1989 Bally Mousin' Around - right flipper coil is overheating and flipper stays up (or is that the other way around). Where do I start?
I would check to ensure your coil is correct type for machine and EOS switch is not dirty / broken
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Futher does the flipper itself move freely? Ie just by hand. Make sure it isn't binding on the bush as well....
I would also check diodes on the coil on question too....
If you have a DMM - it is possible that a winding has broken on the coil too....
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Definitely not moving freely like LHS so will see if I can take it apart. My searching on the internet has yet to find a manual/schematic, just a handbook with switch matrix and lamp matrix.
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Definitely not moving freely like LHS so will see if I can take it apart. My searching on the internet has yet to find a manual/schematic, just a handbook with switch matrix and lamp matrix.
I had a look too. The manual on IPD is fairly limited in what it supplies.
I'm certainly no expert with flippers, but I've just recently put a kit through my Sys 11b (Police Force) and a Data East as well. If (when power off) the flipper being moved manually is not free / binding then this is definately one problem.
Was the machine previously working fine or is this a new purchase?
I would start by removing the coil stop (two hex-nuts) holding it in and have a look at the coil sleeve. Also, I would check to make sure the actual flipper bat is not hitting playfield and there should be some movement (up and down) as well.
With the coil out, does the bat / arm move freely? If so, I would re-assemble making sure the coil is sitting square and flush against both coil stops.
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The pin is new to me, but there were previously problems with the RHS flipper, which was thought to be an EOS problem, and was subsequently fixed. But I am not surprised to find further issues with it. I am in the middle of taking it apart to see what is going on - dinner intervened.
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Also check the flipper switch on side of cabinet, is it stuck in the closed position? holding the flipper on.
Note that the plastic insert tube in the coil can melt and bind on the flipper shaft.
After replacing the insert and getting it going, there's probably still a reason WHY it failed in the first place, hence looking at the flipper switch, otherwsie a driver transistor issue?
MM.
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The pin is new to me, but there were previously problems with the RHS flipper, which was thought to be an EOS problem, and was subsequently fixed. But I am not surprised to find further issues with it. I am in the middle of taking it apart to see what is going on - dinner intervened.
You can eat and work on a pinny at the same time. Thats what stable tables are for!!
As MM suggested if the coil sleeve is stuffed, let me know I've got about 4 spare downstairs and I'll mail you one, but I would definately recommend if she's a keeper, you're better off putting a whole new kit through her and if testing the coils (ohms) are no good then do the lot! Its not cheap, but not expensive either and they are the most important part of your game.
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Yep - Marty's on the ball here... It has to move freely.. Could be a number of reasons ;
Clogged up mechanism from lubrication
Warped coil sleeve
Burnt coil (Very doubtful)
EOS needs cleaning or re gap
Stuck flipper switch...
Where did this rare and interesting title come from !@# @@^
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Yep - Marty's on the ball here... It has to move freely.. Could be a number of reasons ;
Clogged up mechanism from lubrication
Warped coil sleeve
Burnt coil (Very doubtful)
EOS needs cleaning or re gap
Stuck flipper switch...
Where did this rare and interesting title come from !@# @@^
Hmm, I know of someone who has one (or did?)
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Yep - Marty's on the ball here... It has to move freely.. Could be a number of reasons ;
Clogged up mechanism from lubrication
Warped coil sleeve
Burnt coil (Very doubtful)
EOS needs cleaning or re gap
Stuck flipper switch...
Where did this rare and interesting title come from !@# @@^
Actually, I think you know where it came from!!
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OK, the plastic on the inside of the coil has melted, meaning the shaft no longer moves freely in the coil.
The coil was not original, as far as I can tell, whereas the LHS one does look original (it has FL-11630 stamped on it which rings a bell).
A couple of possibilities:-
EOS was not gapped correctly to begin with (this flipper was blowing fuses) and the damage to the coil had occurred this way, before EOS was fixed;
Coil was not a correct replacement (eg lower rating) causing damage.
Either way it looks like I am up for a new coil, which I hope fixes the flipper as I am keen to play this thing and learn how to score some points on it!
Might make a trip somewhere tomorrow in my 'lunch' break...
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OK, the plastic on the inside of the coil has melted, meaning the shaft no longer moves freely in the coil.
The coil was not original, as far as I can tell, whereas the LHS one does look original (it has FL-11630 stamped on it which rings a bell).
A couple of possibilities:-
EOS was not gapped correctly to begin with (this flipper was blowing fuses) and the damage to the coil had occurred this way, before EOS was fixed;
Coil was not a correct replacement (eg lower rating) causing damage.
Either way it looks like I am up for a new coil, which I hope fixes the flipper as I am keen to play this thing and learn how to score some points on it!
Might make a trip somewhere tomorrow in my 'lunch' break...
Coil might still be good - try to remove the sleeve. If you can install a new coil sleeve - the coil might be ok.. If you cannot move the coil sleeve, then discard the coil. Might be worth checking the coil with a multimeter - a diode is cheaper !
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No need to speculate where the pin came from. The flipper was blowing fuses as the EOS wasnt adjusted properly and the high voltage when flipper button held in, was blowing the fuse. At least five test games were played once ajusted without fail and the strength of the flipper was adequate to make all ramp shots.
The coil, although not original tested fine,the coil sleeve is another issue that should be replaced. Pop by and let me know the parts you require.
Please mention that you played and tested both pins before picking up and that the mousin around was a last minute decision that I was rushed to get ready so that you could have for saturday.
You know you can always call me for assistance, forums are a great place to get advice, I hate when people always revert to........where did you get it from? as if something dodgy has taken place.
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No need to speculate where the pin came from. The flipper was blowing fuses as the EOS wasnt adjusted properly and the high voltage when flipper button held in, was blowing the fuse. At least five test games were played once ajusted without fail and the strength of the flipper was adequate to make all ramp shots.
The coil, although not original tested fine,the coil sleeve is another issue that should be replaced. Pop by and let me know the parts you require.
Please mention that you played and tested both pins before picking up and that the mousin around was a last minute decision that I was rushed to get ready so that you could have for saturday.
You know you can always call me for assistance, forums are a great place to get advice, I hate when people always revert to........where did you get it from? as if something dodgy has taken place.
I am happy with both pins and yes they both were working prior to pickup. I was expecting some minor maintenance issues to crop up after moving them - and I am trying to learn things myself so I didn't want to hassle you.
With the coil sleeve, the only thing I am worried about is that I couldn't find 2.5A slow blow so am using 3A slow blow - and that this resulted in overheating the coil and hence damaging the coil sleeve. With the move, the EOS adjustment may well have been knocked about which could explain the whole situation. I didn't check it thoroughly before replacing the fuse. (My bad - I didn't consider this.)
I think Nino was just interested to know where I got my hands on a Mousin' Around - and I believe he saw it on the floor hence my response.
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No need to speculate where the pin came from. The flipper was blowing fuses as the EOS wasnt adjusted properly and the high voltage when flipper button held in, was blowing the fuse. At least five test games were played once ajusted without fail and the strength of the flipper was adequate to make all ramp shots.
The coil, although not original tested fine,the coil sleeve is another issue that should be replaced. Pop by and let me know the parts you require.
Please mention that you played and tested both pins before picking up and that the mousin around was a last minute decision that I was rushed to get ready so that you could have for saturday.
You know you can always call me for assistance, forums are a great place to get advice, I hate when people always revert to........where did you get it from? as if something dodgy has taken place.
I am happy with both pins and yes they both were working prior to pickup. I was expecting some minor maintenance issues to crop up after moving them - and I am trying to learn things myself so I didn't want to hassle you.
With the coil sleeve, the only thing I am worried about is that I couldn't find 2.5A slow blow so am using 3A slow blow - and that this resulted in overheating the coil and hence damaging the coil sleeve. With the move, the EOS adjustment may well have been knocked about which could explain the whole situation. I didn't check it thoroughly before replacing the fuse. (My bad - I didn't consider this.)
I think Nino was just interested to know where I got my hands on a Mousin' Around - and I believe he saw it on the floor hence my response.
Its all cool, nino has seen the mousin around,its a pin you dont see everyday.Was seriously considering keeping it for myself. If you need a coil sleeve etc.. let me know, will help however we can.
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Coil might still be good - try to remove the sleeve. If you can install a new coil sleeve - the coil might be ok.. If you cannot move the coil sleeve, then discard the coil. Might be worth checking the coil with a multimeter - a diode is cheaper !
OK, didn't know these things had sleeves - the coil itself is almost for sure still fine as until I checked how hot it was and decided to turn off the pin for a while it was still firing at full power.
I will grab a new sleeve from somewhere (depends where I go on the lunch break) and make sure EOS is working as it should - I reckon this got knocked out of alignment in the move. And I will monitor coil heat to make sure there are no other issues.
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I did see the machine a couple of weeks ago and I commented on it's rarity and it's immaculate condition. Certainly, you are very fortunate to have such an awesome machine...
#*#
Now lets get this flipper going !!
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Unfortunately it looks like I have stuffed the sleeve - how do you normally get a sleeve out??
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Unfortunately it looks like I have stuffed the sleeve - how do you normally get a sleeve out??
Couple of ways of doing this.. First of all - Does it move at all ?
When they don't move, you need to break the sleeve. What I do, is use a tool which is a long thin screwdriver - Just push the screwdriver inbetween the coil and the sleeve and "break" the sleeve. Move the tool or screwdriver along the sleeve until it has completely collapsed.... Remove the sleeve..
When installing the new sleeve, if you feel resistance, just spray a little bit of Nifti on the foil sleeve and try again. If you cannot push the sleeve into the coil, then the coil is no good.
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Not the Nifti again? it's like windex for pimples huh? :lol
MM.
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Not the Nifti again? it's like windex for pimples huh? :lol
MM.
Also great for Gravel Rash !
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Got half the sleeve out! Now for the other half.
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OK, got about 2/3rds of the sleeve out with the help of some side-cutters and a screwdriver. What's left in there looks really melted on.
I think I will get a new coil and maybe work away at this one later. I might be able to file what's left of the sleeve down, but I am not that patient right now.
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OK, got about 2/3rds of the sleeve out with the help of some side-cutters and a screwdriver. What's left in there looks really melted on.
I think I will get a new coil and maybe work away at this one later. I might be able to file what's left of the sleeve down, but I am not that patient right now.
Remember you also have to be wary of the fact that "something" caused the flipper to "meltdown" in the first place.. you really need to work on that.
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Remember you also have to be wary of the fact that "something" caused the flipper to "meltdown" in the first place.. you really need to work on that.
Well, my guess is no EOS combined with 3A slow-blow but I will test later tonight.
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Remember you also have to be wary of the fact that "something" caused the flipper to "meltdown" in the first place.. you really need to work on that.
Well, my guess is no EOS combined with 3A slow-blow but I will test later tonight.
Revert back to the correct rated fuse, adjust the EOS, install a new coil sleeve.
Enjoy your pinball !
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Deferred until tomorrow night - having too much fun with Dirty Harry.
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OK have coil. My understanding of how these things should be wired:
Main power goes to common lug (outside)
GND goes to opposite outside lug
EOS - one end goes to centre lug, the other to GND lug
How does that sound? (And what colours are normally used to designate GND and power - 1989 Bally?)
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I guess I wired it up correctly - it works and EOS works and coil is not getting hot anymore. Just got to sort out how it goes back together mechanically so that it works 100%; it is a bit different to the LHS.
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Good news - well done !
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Excellent !! another PLUS for an AP member &&
MM.
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Years of exposure to electronics and then computers means I am not afraid to take things apart and fiddle - it helps!
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Just another update - I am still having the occasional 'sticky flipper' problem on the RHS which I have nearly ironed out - this is a purely mechanical thing - when I changed the coil over I wasn't quite successful in putting everything back together how it came out. If I had another nut for the bolt I am using to replace the one that came out I think I would be on a winner. Might drop in to Bunnings or similar tomorrow to find one as I want this working for New Year's Eve. *%*
I have been playing it a bit and the RH ball eater (locker) stopped functioning correctly. The ball would go in, the eater would go down but it would come straight back up again and eject the ball (due to gravity). After some deductive logic I concluded it had to be the ball switch on the eater. Cleaning the switch contacts and bending the switch blades to ensure contact on the eater descent didn't help, so I bit the bullet and removed the eater from the playfield. Sure enough, one of the switch wires was loose - a re-solder means this is functioning perfectly now.
This game is a lot of fun to play, quite challenging really.
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Sounds like you are learning as you go along - which is the best part of buying and maintaining your own machines.
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Great to see you getting "in there" and playing eliminating/proving faults & scenario's etc, well done.
As long as you're confident, go for it.
Of course, when in doubt, just shout out here, plenty of the boys will be happy to guide you from their own 20-30+ yrs experience %$%
If i had $1 for everytime it ended up being a loose wire or dodgy connector, i'd have $1000's hahahaha.
Well, actually, i wouldn't, coz i woulda bought another pin with that kinda money :lol :lol :lol
MM.
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bunnings does not have fine american threads- you need to goto a bolt place (even then!) get the right fastener, you maybe losing some torque due to slop in coil securing.
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The bolt thing didn't quite work out how I was hoping - I am now thinking about replacing this with the correct linkage.
Anyway, after quite a few games the LHS flipper just died :( Initial trouble-shooting shows 60V available to coil at EOS; as the multimeter is digital I don't know how to measure the voltage during the stroke but something seems to happen. Just to check I tried resoldering the wiring to it but with no difference. Next step is to remove coil for ease of access and check diodes and resistance of coil - I think I will skip that for now and try another day!!
Happy New Year to all. I am guessing there is no-one sad enough to be reading this until tomorrow :)
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The bolt thing didn't quite work out how I was hoping - I am now thinking about replacing this with the correct linkage.
Anyway, after quite a few games the LHS flipper just died :( Initial trouble-shooting shows 60V available to coil at EOS; as the multimeter is digital I don't know how to measure the voltage during the stroke but something seems to happen. Just to check I tried resoldering the wiring to it but with no difference. Next step is to remove coil for ease of access and check diodes and resistance of coil - I think I will skip that for now and try another day!!
Happy New Year to all. I am guessing there is no-one sad enough to be reading this until tomorrow :)
I'm here - albeit all on my lonesome !!!
We will get to the bottom of this issue - First you need to check the diodes on the coil and the ability of the plunger to move freely through the coil.
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nope - im still here - 1pm in Brisbane - had a cracker of a night in the games room
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nope - im still here - 1pm in Brisbane - had a cracker of a night in the games room
Um, that is tomorrow!! I think you mean 1am...
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OK, have removed the LHS coil from the machine. Diodes seem to be measuring correctly - ie no current flow one way, low resistance the other. I am not sure what the coil (Williams FL11630) should be measuring as there are two windings: one internet page says main winding should be 4R7, but doesn't give a reading for the secondary. Mine reads 5R5 and 163R respectively. Is this within tolerance?
By the way, there is no problem with the sleeve on this one as far as I can tell.
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OK, have removed the LHS coil from the machine. Diodes seem to be measuring correctly - ie no current flow one way, low resistance the other. I am not sure what the coil (Williams FL11630) should be measuring as there are two windings: one internet page says main winding should be 4R7, but doesn't give a reading for the secondary. Mine reads 5R5 and 163R respectively. Is this within tolerance?
By the way, there is no problem with the sleeve on this one as far as I can tell.
I must of missed this update...
I guess you could check the resistance by temporarily removing the other coil wires and measuring the resistance of the coil as a direct comparison.
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Well, went and bought a spare coil plus a couple of new plunger/link/crank assemblies - actually a rebuild kit. I knew the RHS was only going to work for me properly if I replaced it as I could not work out how to get it working as it was before I pulled it apart! So went the whole hog and got both sides at the same time. (Invested in some Novus products as well. And picked up the free rubber kit. Thanks, Mark!)
In the process of dismantling the LHS completely, I then realised the problem was the EOS contacts. Note on this machine the EOS contacts are normally closed. What I discovered was that in the normally closed position there was very poor to no contact being made. Appropriate bending of metal fixed the issue.
Anyway, all good practice. I now know how to replace flippers, once again managed to solder the correct wires to the coil, and then got to play the Mousin' Around! with the glass on - much quieter... and much fun. The kids are going to want to play this when they get back from some time away but I suspect they will find it pretty challenging.
And I finally cracked 9 million and was able to put my initials in.
I think I will replace the EOS switches next time I need to look under the playfield as the current ones are pretty dodgy.
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Well, went and bought a spare coil plus a couple of new plunger/link/crank assemblies - actually a rebuild kit. I knew the RHS was only going to work for me properly if I replaced it as I could not work out how to get it working as it was before I pulled it apart! So went the whole hog and got both sides at the same time. (Invested in some Novus products as well. And picked up the free rubber kit. Thanks, Mark!)
In the process of dismantling the LHS completely, I then realised the problem was the EOS contacts. Note on this machine the EOS contacts are normally closed. What I discovered was that in the normally closed position there was very poor to no contact being made. Appropriate bending of metal fixed the issue.
Anyway, all good practice. I now know how to replace flippers, once again managed to solder the correct wires to the coil, and then got to play the Mousin' Around! with the glass on - much quieter... and much fun. The kids are going to want to play this when they get back from some time away but I suspect they will find it pretty challenging.
And I finally cracked 9 million and was able to put my initials in.
I think I will replace the EOS switches next time I need to look under the playfield as the current ones are pretty dodgy.
Whenever I buy a project or "as is" machine, I automatically assume the flippers need to be rebuilt. But it is almost a "given", that SOME parts will need to be replaced.. Even though it did end up being the EOS switches, the next "weakest" link may have given you issues. So a flipper rebuild kit was the best option imho. The game should play like new..