The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => General Discussion => General Pinball Discussion => Topic started by: Pop Bumper Pete on February 08, 2015, 04:15:48 PM
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Is the age of the pre-order over? !*!
Seeing that over the last couple of years a number of people have had the idea of starting their own company and build pinball machines
Everyone but Spooky Pinball (Americas most Haunted) seem to hit a few bumps.
They have funded their idea with other peoples money, and as we all know, pinball aint cheep.
With the beauty of hind sight, would you pre-order a pinball machine today?
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I clicked "I have pre-ordered before, and will again" but in reality it is "I have pre-ordered before, and might for the right game again"
I pre-ordered BBB, obviously a special case, and would for Kingpin. Unlikely for any others unless the theme is killer, or a known quantity like a proto that didn't make it to production.
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That's a great question Pete. Except for Mike's TAG, it seems to be a big gamble for most!
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That's a great question Pete. Except for Mike's TAG, it seems to be a big gamble for most!
+1
Absolutely. I won't pay for a NIB game until I can see / feel the finished product. TAG would be as safe as houses.
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Have preordered before, am currently on preorder lists, and would again.
Pinball was going virtually nowhere with the 2000-2010 model and was in danger of being left behind when the market leaders simply lurched from one title to the next and only advanced when their hand was forced by either 3rd party supplier technical obsolescence (e.g. incandescent to LED) or in later years when competition directly affected their sales.
Stern did little more than tread water for ten years technology wise when they had a monopoly. You want pinball to go back to that? ^&^
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Re TAG, this machine is still 6 months away
None of us (except his distributor) know anything about the game
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I would with a large proven company like stern but not with a small company with zero runs on the board :)
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I would with a large proven company like stern but not with a small company with zero runs on the board :)
+1 and then I am hesitant. I take risks in business not usually for pleasure.
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I have a pre-order for AMH but with Spooky's model there is no money up front until about a month prior to departure. Even then it is a refundable $1-2k deposit with the remaining being on despatch. I am more nervous about how that pin will get here.
I was offered a position for j pops pin but $10k usd and a unknown time frame of when it may be ready - so passed on it.
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Re TAG, this machine is still 6 months away
None of us (except his distributor) know anything about the game
That's good because WOZ was marketed to death for two years before anyone got one and when people got their game they said it felt like a old purchase already.
If TAG is like Sterns releases it means the title is fresh when it is shown and distributed.
People also need to remember Stern had to tread water and make it through one of the worlds largest recessions. Most USA car companies went bankrupt. Stern did well to keep pinball alive. No company ever has one hundred year perfect runs.
Except for the WOZ pre order, and for Thunderbirds, all the rest seem to be a surety that you will lose your money.
That Turkey in Melbourne who stole all the WOZ monies, ruined pre orders in Australia forever.
AMD are fine. Bruce is as safe as houses as would Mike- Homepin be.
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Re TAG, this machine is still 6 months away
None of us (except his distributor) know anything about the game
Artwork will be on the playfield, and I'm almost sure that no artwork can be posted until the IP owners of Thunderbirds approve. I think Mike even mentioned once that he is not allowed to use "part of" the artwork of Thunderbird 3 - you have to use the artwork of the entire Thunderbird.
So asking for playfield shots would be a whitewood. Cabinet would be like looking at a blue cabinet with the artwork blurred.
I think the day it is all announced - it will not disappoint.
I do get your point Pete. But I think it is shrouded in secrecy for good reason &&
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All valid points above, Most likely wouldn't pre order again, Homepin/Spooky different story ()
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Its not over and never will be. We are pinball people and we love the rare and limited games... its what fuels any hobby, be it 1st edition books, stamps or records. Being the first to own, or owning a limited number production is just too tempting. The mind tells you its wrong but many people just cant resist it.
Ive pre ordered vinyl records that are a limited pressing with no idea how they sound till I get them. I know the band but not the record itself.
No different with pinball, just larger $$$ values being spent.
How much are you willing to gamble???. That really is the only difference.
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Re TAG, this machine is still 6 months away
None of us (except his distributor) know anything about the game
Artwork will be on the playfield, and I'm almost sure that no artwork can be posted until the IP owners of Thunderbirds approve. I think Mike even mentioned once that he is not allowed to use "part of" the artwork of Thunderbird 3 - you have to use the artwork of the entire Thunderbird.
So asking for playfield shots would be a whitewood. Cabinet would be like looking at a blue cabinet with the artwork blurred.
I think the day it is all announced - it will not disappoint.
I do get your point Pete. But I think it is shrouded in secrecy for good reason &&
No, I understand his keeping it under wraps and I am fine with that
My point is that, today, we cannot judge the game or Mikes ability to produce the game, because he has not made the game yet nor is it due for another six months
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Re TAG, this machine is still 6 months away
None of us (except his distributor) know anything about the game
Artwork will be on the playfield, and I'm almost sure that no artwork can be posted until the IP owners of Thunderbirds approve. I think Mike even mentioned once that he is not allowed to use "part of" the artwork of Thunderbird 3 - you have to use the artwork of the entire Thunderbird.
So asking for playfield shots would be a whitewood. Cabinet would be like looking at a blue cabinet with the artwork blurred.
I think the day it is all announced - it will not disappoint.
I do get your point Pete. But I think it is shrouded in secrecy for good reason &&
No, I understand his keeping it under wraps and I am fine with that
My point is that, today, we cannot judge the game or Mikes ability to produce the game, because he has not made the game yet nor is it due for another six months
I agree. If the pinball is anything like the tables, then they will be the best pinballs on the market. That's aiming high for a initial release, so maybe by the 3rd or 4th title, they should be the best..
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We had a swag of coil parts and sleeves delivered today - just as all places are closing for Chinese New Year.
Three types of coil sleeves
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/former.jpg)
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/formers.jpg)
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/formersandsleeves.jpg)
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/sleeves.jpg)
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/terminals.jpg)
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/terminalsclose.jpg)
Oh....I think the pre-order model is all but dead, JJP killed that off with all of his stories and stalling and broken promises and the Bumper fiasco sealed its fate!
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Bumper ruin everything :(
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Nino, I drank the koolaide when JJP was serving
I look forward to Thunderbirds are go, but I am going to reserve judgment until I see the game
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I'm a maybe on this one. I've never pre ordered before but I'd consider it if it was a theme I really really liked and the company making it had a long history of delivering as promised. I think it's great that there are all these new start up company's but to be honest until they're built I don't have that much interest. I will say though that I love the art on the Jpop games and hope they all come to fruition. Hopefully they play as good as they look.
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I notice that jpop/zidware is going down
Jpop has realized he has no money to build games, so he has sold the assets to another person
They will build the games in two years if the original depositors pony up more dollars, and new people decide to get on board , to the tune of $16,000 US
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Some thoughts:
1. I thought his last game was being sold for $US15k. Is that correct?
If so I presume the $US16k, is saying that the new investor wants an additional $US1k. If there is any saving grace for those with a deposit, its that an extra & 7% is not much to pay. If its is a reputable manufacture, I'd throw in the extra 7%.
2. ...so the big question is now, who will be taking over production. Given they are all LE games (100 or so of each of the three games?), I can't see a big company getting involved. The relatively small run could suit Spooky Pinball.
3. The lesson of pre-order is being learnt again. I'm beginning to think that JJP may not survive. Though JJP may have a loyal customer base, it is now limited to just that. If JJP was now to announce pre-order of their third unthemed title that Pat Lawler is working on, I can't see many people paying a deposit until they know the machine is in production, or even more so, is in the distributors showroom. JJP's business model is based on pre-order for now. JJP has to start producing more titles per year, or their revenue stream is going to be Zero for the next year or two.
4. So is J Pop going to end up working for one of the new start up companies? He is a great designer, so I hope that happens, but I fear his name is tainted.
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Honestly, I feel very sorry for anyone placing money on a pre order to the boutique manufacturers. Nearly all of the boutiques run out of basements with no manufacturing building and no staff. Just a couple of people with a dream. I don't understand how anyone can pay an unestablished dreamer huge sums of money and wait years to see nothing except a random notice through the internet that the dream is over and so is your wallet.
Homepin and Heighway at least turned the dream into a practical solution. Start at the right end of the chain - you need the facilities and you need the staff. You already share the dream, but turning into a relaity is not a matter of spending time in a basement or talking constantly to podcasts. Now Circus Maximus is on the block, and they took Python's dream and ran with it. But again, what did they do FIRST - They bought a manufacturing plant.
Having said that, manufacturers do make mistakes in picking distributors. So there is still scope for a pre order buyer to lose their money. Protecting the "brand" is just as important as producing a good game.
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Some thoughts:
1. I thought his last game was being sold for $US15k. Is that correct?
If so I presume the $US16k, is saying that the new investor wants an additional $US1k. If there is any saving grace for those with a deposit, its that an extra & 7% is not much to pay. If its is a reputable manufacture, I'd throw in the extra 7%.
2. ...so the big question is now, who will be taking over production. Given they are all LE games (100 or so of each of the three games?), I can't see a big company getting involved. The relatively small run could suit Spooky Pinball.
3. The lesson of pre-order is being learnt again. I'm beginning to think that JJP may not survive. Though JJP may have a loyal customer base, it is now limited to just that. If JJP was now to announce pre-order of their third unthemed title that Pat Lawler is working on, I can't see many people paying a deposit until they know the machine is in production, or even more so, is in the distributors showroom. JJP's business model is based on pre-order for now. JJP has to start producing more titles per year, or their revenue stream is going to be Zero for the next year or two.
4. So is J Pop going to end up working for one of the new start up companies? He is a great designer, so I hope that happens, but I fear his name is tainted.
There is a rumor that JJP is bailing them out
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Some thoughts:
1. I thought his last game was being sold for $US15k. Is that correct?
If so I presume the $US16k, is saying that the new investor wants an additional $US1k. If there is any saving grace for those with a deposit, its that an extra & 7% is not much to pay. If its is a reputable manufacture, I'd throw in the extra 7%.
2. ...so the big question is now, who will be taking over production. Given they are all LE games (100 or so of each of the three games?), I can't see a big company getting involved. The relatively small run could suit Spooky Pinball.
3. The lesson of pre-order is being learnt again. I'm beginning to think that JJP may not survive. Though JJP may have a loyal customer base, it is now limited to just that. If JJP was now to announce pre-order of their third unthemed title that Pat Lawler is working on, I can't see many people paying a deposit until they know the machine is in production, or even more so, is in the distributors showroom. JJP's business model is based on pre-order for now. JJP has to start producing more titles per year, or their revenue stream is going to be Zero for the next year or two.
4. So is J Pop going to end up working for one of the new start up companies? He is a great designer, so I hope that happens, but I fear his name is tainted.
There is a rumor that JJP is bailing them out
...A JJP bailout would make sense for JJP. They have a small (slow) production line, which is fine for three short runs like this. It will also give JJP a quick cash injection. At $16k per machine that already have a final design concepts, JJP can't make a loss on this. (They will likely still need to do likely detailed design.)
Pop's games are narrow bodies. So to is Pat Lawlers game. Having done a few some narrow bodies I hope JJP become convinced to do to narrow bodies. People have different views on this, but I prefer a narrow body game. Wide bodies are sluggish.
Ops, this is starting to derail the thread! Sorry, I just wanted to sneak this in.
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I read the announcement today on Facebook from Zidware that the company has taken in over a million dollars of deposits, cannot and will not refund one cent of any persons deposits and to be honest, after reading the entire notice from Zidware, I was absolutely disgusted.
This company is a lesson in trading insolvent 101.
In Australia, you now get jailed for doing that. What the USA laws are, I don't know.
But every word of that announcement stank of receivership and the number crunchers are asking people to wait another 2 to 5 years only if they get a signed agreement from the large majority of people who have payed $$.
If you don't agree to their terms, and under duress I feel, then the "entity" stepping in wont be going ahead.
How the bloke who ran Zidware will ever show his face again at a pinball show/event, will be beyond me.
The question is, "where has the million dollars gone" ?
If he has been living off the deposits, and was not in a position to manufacture (which has proven to be correct) then that is fraud in my mind and trading insolvent. The moment you spend one cent of investors money, knowing their is a reasonable chance that you cannot deliver, it's trading insolvent, highly immoral and probably illegal.
The people who have paid deposits, are now creditors.
When all creditors are being asked by a third party to sign an agreement before anything else can happen, with the clear statement that you will not be getting your money back, it looks and sounds exactly what bankruptcy lawyers and governing bodies do right before winding the company up. Just bad bad news, bad bad management and negligence on behalf of Zidware.
The guy from the Predator debacle at least said he was and has been refunding all deposits and he took in far less than Zidware did. But Zidware says NO deposits will be refunded.
So where has all the million dollars gone ?
JJP would be mad to go anywhere near this catastrophe.
Also, who would pay $17,000 USA for a unproven, unseen pinball machine. ?
It's another massive black eye for the pinball industry worldwide.
I sincerely hope no Aussies lost a cent.
I hope all the current pinball companies survive, but the pre-order days have been murdered by people who should have known better.
Will Zidware open the books to show people where the $ has gone.
Asking people to wait another 2 to 5 years is insulting and I reckon just another stalling tactic. Sad day for pinball.
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now they are saying JJP is not involved in the rescue
but no word on who is taking over production
I doubt that production will go on from here, you would have to be nuts to pay up , with this companies history, and still not expect to get your machine for 2 - 5 years
they might get a handful of people with too much money, but not in the numbers they would need
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If the company taking over proved to be trustworthy, I'd pay the extra cash. Take the perspective of those who paid a deposit. They may see this as good news. They have probably realised that they had lost their money a year ago. Someone picking this up may not be to bad for them.
But yes, appalling that an option was not provided by Jpop for refunds!
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Have a listen to Coast 2 Coast podcast Episode 167 discusses the Zidware (Jpop) insolvency. 'Nate' goes through the email that was sent to those who have a deposit.
...They have been given an option where they are screwed out of 50% of their deposits. JPop has clearly spent the depositors money. The person taking over doesn't sound like its a proper manufacture - he is referred to as a 'designer/restructure/businessman/professionals'. Bazaar! After hearing this podcast, I'd be asking for my money back, even if its only 50%.
http://www.coast2coastpinball.com (http://www.coast2coastpinball.com) Episode 167.
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Surely this HAS to be the end of the pre-order from any company without a strong track record?? Personally I'm tentative about JJP. Another insane day in the world of buying new pinball :)
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Surely this HAS to be the end of the pre-order from any company without a strong track record?? Personally I'm tentative about JJP. Another insane day in the world of buying new pinball :)
Almost 2 years ago I posted on a JJP thread and my last sentence stated that I had a bad gut feel about paying up front. This news seals that feeling for good.
http://aussiepinball.com/index.php?topic=5892.msg143496#msg143496
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Surely this HAS to be the end of the pre-order from any company without a strong track record?? Personally I'm tentative about JJP.
it took 2 1/2 years for Jack to deliver Woz
it was 2 1/2 years a go that he started taking deposits on The hobbit, game still has not shipped
it is a track record, not a strong endorsement of a company
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posted on Pinside
Dear Fellow Zidware Customers,
Pintasia Design Inc. is the Licensee to MG, RAZA and AIW. We want to share with you who we are and why we are here. We are in the same boat as you. We have interests in both RAZA and MG. By investing our own resources of time, money and efforts, Pintasia on a best efforts basis will do everything that they possibly can to help get back what we all lost to Zidware. To be clear, Pintasia is a third party, and is not a part of Zidware the company or their liabilities.
Pintasia is a newly formed company set up to bring the best talent in all necessary facets of pinball to produce extraordinary games ready for production:
• Business Development - Bill Brandes: business restructuring, real estate holdings, commodities, investment fund
• Finance & Operations - Sabrina Wei: investment banker, business consultant, Deloitte & Touche alumni
• Art Design - Zombie Yeti, artist for MG, RAZA and AIW
• Technical Support - Jim Martin, service and support for machines
• Consultant* (Game Design) - John Popadiuk, Zidware Inc.
• Legal Counsel (USA) – Jordan Litwin, Meltzer, Purtill & Stelle LLC
• Manufacturer – TBD, must be proven quality manufacturer
• Programmer – TBD, must have experience with deep rule sets
* John Popadiuk is strictly a Consultant, he has no interest in Pintasia and does not make any business decisions. His role is strictly defined as artistic design for the completion of the 3 machines in progress.
The agreement provided by our attorney was to quantify Zidware customers enabling us to plan a viable business structure. We have extended the deadline to June 30, 2015, please use updated agreement attached.
We are not asking for money now, and we hope to delay additional payments until production is confirmed. This will largely depend on the manufacturing agreement we enter into. We will release the information upon successful execution.
The Collector's Edition was set at 199, not to encourage an upsell but to allow the opportunity for all Zidware customers to get in on the limited run which will feature special elements. We stress, it is not necessary to have 199 MG-Collector’s Edition ordered to commence production, nor are we forcing anyone to convert from their current title.
The reason we created the Magic Girl Classic is to get possible new sales quicker on a machine that is nearly complete, these potential profits in turn will allow us now to confirm 1:1 credit for RAZA and AIW purchasers.
Our next communication will be strictly answering questions arising from this correspondence. This endeavor was strictly born out of the desire to get the money we all lost to Zidware. We have spoken to many of you personally in the last few days, the positive responses and encouraging words have been absolutely amazing. We want to thank everyone who has lent a hand to help out. For those who we haven’t talked to yet, we invite you to call at your earliest convenience.
Look forward to speaking with you personally,
PINTASIA DESIGN INC.
so, the 'white Knight' has no experience building pinball machines, nor experience building anything
nobody has been contracted to build
nobody IS programming the software
and some people think that this will somehow work????
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If you're thinking of pre ordering pinball, send the cash to me and at least I'll post photos of me spending it on holdays etc
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People who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it
Big bang Bar. Gene designed nothing, had parts made . machine still took 3 years and a lot of favors, to pull it off
Wayne never had a factory when he took deposits for Medieval Madness remake. With no manufacturing experience, it took many years before the idea folded
JJP, had manufacturing experience, but no engineering or programming expertise, took 3 ½ years (he had been working on this a year before his announcement) to get the game rolling off the assembly line. Electronics not up to standard and found to not be able to handle pinball life
If Mike (Homepin) was not an electronics genius and had decades of experience, there would have been no way I would have gone in on TAG
People need to look deeper, beyond the promise, before handing over the well earned $$$
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People who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it
Big bang Bar. Gene designed nothing, had parts made . machine still took 3 years and a lot of favors, to pull it off
Wayne never had a factory when he took deposits for Medieval Madness remake. With no manufacturing experience, it took many years before the idea folded
JJP, had manufacturing experience, but no engineering or programming expertise, took 3 ½ years (he had been working on this a year before his announcement) to get the game rolling off the assembly line. Electronics not up to standard and found to not be able to handle pinball life
If Mike (Homepin) was not an electronics genius and had decades of experience, there would have been no way I would have gone in on TAG
People need to look deeper, beyond the promise, before handing over the well earned $$$
Brilliant post. A reality check for those that have faith in these boutique projects. The way Mike has handled TAG is exactly the opposite of all the failed (and possibly failing) ventures. Keep your eye on circus Maximus ass well ^^^
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Thanks for the votes of confidence guys, it is appreciated.
The one BIG issue that affects me with all of these others having problems is that I get inundated with inquiries asking me every question you can imagine and then some. This takes valuable time away from me overseeing the work to move forward.
There are so many different things to sort out on a daily basis I couldn't begin to describe them.
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Thanks for the votes of confidence guys, it is appreciated.
The one BIG issue that affects me with all of these others having problems is that I get inundated with inquiries asking me every question you can imagine and then some. This takes valuable time away from me overseeing the work to move forward.
There are so many different things to sort out on a daily basis I couldn't begin to describe them.
I can just imagine what you have to put up with !
I think I receive 2-3 calls a day along the same lines..
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Thanks for the votes of confidence guys, it is appreciated.
The one BIG issue that affects me with all of these others having problems is that I get inundated with inquiries asking me every question you can imagine and then some. This takes valuable time away from me overseeing the work to move forward.
There are so many different things to sort out on a daily basis I couldn't begin to describe them.
When I saw Nino's post THIS is exactly what I thought of - Homepin would get plenty of questions. Btw Mike would it be fair to say you are adopting the Gottlieb model in a loose sense (reading that they made all their own parts to prevent supply disruption)? Also, are your coils ready to purchase or still coming?
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Jersey Jack gave a speech at a US convention this weekend
supposedly has only presold 1500 Hobbits
still no shipping date
I guess many people have stopped drinking the kool-aide
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Jersey Jack gave a speech at a US convention this weekend
supposedly has only presold 1500 Hobbits
still no shipping date
I guess many people have stopped drinking the kool-aide
Yes maybe presold 1500, How many have wanted refunds back, lucky if he sold Real 500 IMHO (((