The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Archived Threads => Homepin => Topic started by: Homepin on December 28, 2010, 06:27:50 PM
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Some of you may know that when I was last in Brisbane I bought an old Bally that had been converted by an Italian company into a game called "Movie Masters". I wanted it for a test bench for the upcoming MPU project. When I collected it from Robs place in Townsville it looked a little sad but it was complete which is what I wanted.
It didn't take much to get the MPU going (bad 5101 RAM mainly) but most of the gas displays had seen better days - missing segments, burnt glass etc. so I thought I would have a look at whipping up my own replacement from common parts and with what I had on hand. I chose a 4511 BCD decoder as it is very close in specs to the original (hard to get) chip. I didn't realise at the time I was laying out the PCB that a couple of the input pins require signals that are inverted from the original and you can see the couple of transistors I 'bodged' onto the board when I realised this later during testing.
Yes, the displays I had to hand are smaller than the originals and are blue BUT, I am encouraged by this result and I might search for some larger orange 7 segment LEDs and make up a full set for this machine. All the parts used are very common and inexpensive - most available over the counter from Jaycar etc.
One major advantage is that the entire display runs on the 5 volt rail so the 180V would not be required. I am unsure how much interest there might be for a full set of DIY - assemble yourself displays in orange and as close to the originals as possible??? Maybe not enough to warrant developing things further, hard to know? In any case I guess I won't have to try and track down the replacement glass for this test machine %.%
The sample boards:
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/pcbsdisplay.jpg)(http://www.homepin.com/pics/pcbsclose.jpg)
Assembled (and the bodge):
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/displayback.jpg)(http://www.homepin.com/pics/displaymod.jpg)
Fits nicely - and WORKS!:
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/installeddisplay.jpg)(http://www.homepin.com/pics/displayon.jpg)
and looks great in 'display test mode' (you can see the last digit is out on the original display in this video):
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Thered be more demand than you think Mike. The time i spend fixing the old ones could be better spent building new ones.
Put it this way... i have BALLY games that are missing displays.. i took ALL perfect displays out of my Star Trek so i could sell a SPECTRUM. ST is a keeper and so i try and find old displays that i can fix up to put in there. Only way i have of really doing this is to buy bulk lots off Ebay... chuck out those with burnt anodes etc and repair the rest... its a hit and miss method.
Unfortunately, the old displays cannot be repaired, i have the equipment to regas these but the way they are manufactured means that this cannot be done.
The HV section on a pinball doesnt bother me at all.. it gets a bad rap, but it is only 180v.. hardly high voltage and its current is minimal... im guessing 20mA maximum if that.
Im not adverse to replacing displays with LED type.. i dont actually mind the look of these and after all, when these games were being made LED watches were hot and new on the market... remember the "Black Watch"?... my uncle had one... WOW!!! Had time and at the press of an obscure button told you the date!
Theres nothing new about having LED number displays... it was cutting edge in late 70's.. in all honesty, the pinball manufacturers really should have embraced them then.... look at my RALLY game that you saw.. cutting edge Nixie displays in the late 60's.... really advanced stuff for its time.
Personally, id be making these LED displays to replace my old ones as they died.. and die they will.
Another smaller market for you would be for Zaccaria games.. ( here we go again!) but these displays are nigh on impossible to replace... try sourcing some 7 digit!
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OK - interesting feedback. I will look into the price of 7 segment LEDs that are as close as I can find to the originals. I do remember last China trip I tried to find them with a 'comma' but they simply are not made. Pinled have theirs specially made. I hate to think of the min order qtys for that...............
The rest of the parts are all very VERY common and dirt cheap so the main cost would be the displays and the PCB's.
I would also like to take some accurate measurements to determine exactly how much current they would draw from the 5 volt rail and perhaps build something into the replacement boards that generated the 5 volts to run them to ease the load on the original power supply??
Any other interest in this as a project?
PS - I will add that the chip I have used - the BCD decoder - does NOT provide a 'tail' on the 6 or the 9 (you can compare in the youtube video with the original display) - I don't know how important this would be for people???
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simply fantastic, great idea
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As Gav said im sure there would be a demand for these displays each bunch i buy off fleebay im lucky if i salvage one useable display and would much rather ^^^ be piecing together one of your kits
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I used to buy bulk lots off eBay years ago. $20 would buy you at least a dozen. I'd buy them to repair them and leave them aside. They SELL for over $20 each these days. so there IS demand for them. Especially 6 Digit. It costs anywhere between US$33 - $40 for a 6 digit glass. Not cheap !
So I'd think there would be heaps of interest.
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Nice work once again Mike. ^^^
Don't you ever sleep?
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EDITED
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Looks like a useful thing to keep more pins alive, got to be good.
Leon of test rom fame has published a few suggestions, but these are far less elegant and perhaps beyond the scope of most of us.
Mike's offering is much neater and more elegant.
http://home.scarlet.be/~cv006274/ledbal/eled.htm for Bally
http://home.scarlet.be/~cv006274/dispwill36/edispwill36.htm for WMS
Leon suggests supplementing the 5V supply.
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"Leon suggests supplementing the 5V supply."
Yes he does and I agree with the idea but not some of the suggested 'fixes'.
I am working on a stand alone 5V PCB that would be used to run these displays only and would generate its own 5V supply so it wouldn't cause any strain on the existing (already stretched) power supply in the machine.
It seems there is enough interest so I will persue afull size digit version. I have to have 100pcs of PCBs made minimum order but realistically that is only 20 'sets' of displays..…..
I have been asked about other colours so maybe I could supply them with option to choose Orange, Green, Blue or White displays???
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RGB displays???
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Orange would be the predominant color I'd suggest.
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Orange would be the predominant color I'd suggest.
I agree and Orange is also the hardest colour to find in 20mm 7 segment displays !@#
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Thats because orange colour is harder to make than standard Red, Blue, Green... even white.
White is produced by using blue with a phosphour coating.
Red, Green,Blue as we know are primary light colours.. these come easy
Orange is made by manipulating a "yellow" coating. Its colour is not as stable as any of its red partners etc.
The most unstable colour is pink.
This whole concept is funny.... i make neon signage and for years we have strived to make rich deep reds... this comes by using expensive coloured Italian made glass... it is an absolutely beautiful colour though... VERY rich and deep.
The "orange"colour of these displays is just the natural colour of neon gas... it fades out to an orange when inside wide diameter tubing.. such as the displays... the smaller the cubic area to be covered, the more RED the gas appears, but it comes at a cost of higher resistance within the gas due to a higher pressure required at filling... this in turn requires a higher voltage to strike the arc consistently.
For 25 years i have heard... "its a bit orangey... any chance it could be redder?"
Now we have the opposite scenario.
The grass is always greener....er... redder... er orangeyer LOL!!! %.% :D %.%
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im sure there would be much interest in the do it your self displays just as there is in the do it your self MPU.
more projects to add to the list ^^^ Thanks Mike, im far from an electronic expert but these kits are going to be fun to build #*#
ian
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Great stuff ^^^ ^^^ for ages i had been thinking of having a go at redesigning/building some of these using LED displays but you've beat me to it :D i still might one day just to see how they turn out, but maybe i might just wait and see, if you produce yours as a kit first!!
regarding the original 4543 decoder ICs i bought a shitload of them from Farnell (now called Element14) while stocking up on hard to get ICs.
BTW i like the look of the blue LED displays, would look good in my home made Vortex pin *%* *%*
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Well I have just crunched the numbers using the Jaycar catalogue as a price guide.
NOTES:
(1) Jaycar 7 segment displays are 13.2mm high (I would supply 18 or 20mm ones) so the Jaycar price is conservative
(2) The displays supplied would NOT look like the original glass as the segments are wider and the 7 digit displays would have a 'full stop' NOT a 'comma'
(3) the displayed '6' and '9' do not have 'tails' as in the original display
(4) I am unsure at this point of available colours in this size - it may be that only 'standard' LED colours would be available (excluding Orange)
(5) This would be a 'build it yourself' project and would be supplied as a kit with instructions
(6) I am still working on a 5 volt supply to run these displays so there is no load on the machines existing power supplies
(7) There would be NO modifications required to your machine - everything plugs in and can be removed leaving no trace
Pricing the 10 PCB's required at my cost price ($5 each), the kit of 5 X complete displays and using the Jaycar prices as a guide the COST OF PARTS for this project would be $289.60.............
Would people be prepared to pay - - - - - - (a bit of a guess here) around $199 or maybe as high as $249 for this complete KIT?????
Opinions sought please.
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I think this is a great alternative for us "Do it your selfers".
Bearing in mind its a kit that you put together yourself I think you have to be very competitively priced compared to other units that are already commercially available and are already assembled with a warranty.
The one that springs to mind is the Rottendog units which are USD$185 ( + shipping ) for 5 x units. They do look good and also have the comma on the displays.
http://www.rottendog.us/DIS021.htm
I think as they are a kit probably around $150 - $170 would be the go but I am fully aware that the cost of all the pcbs and other components in this kit will probably be quite high especially going on Jaycar prices.
I would say Rottendog probably source all their components out of China or Taiwan and who knows they probably have them assembled there too which brings down the cost quite a bit.
I think this is a great project and I dont want to be a "downer" but I think they need to be priced less than other commercially available units so you dont get stuck with a lot of stock that doesn't sell.
I think most of us here on the forum are quite interested but if you want to sell overseas as well our Aussie Dollar being so good might make that quite hard.
Chris
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I would say Rottendog probably source all their components out of China or Taiwan and who knows they probably have them assembled there too which brings down the cost quite a bit.
Not having a go or anything but I reckon Jim would be a bit ticked with that comment!
If you read his site, he says the only thing he can't get made in the US is the boards because of cost.
Definately made in Alabama AFAIK.
Edit: assembled in Al (my bad)
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"Not having a go or anything but I reckon Jim would be a bit ticked with that comment!
If you read his site, he says the only thing he can't get made in the US is the boards because of cost.
Definately made in Alabama AFAIK."
Hahahahahhah - ALL components these days are made in China - like it or not, that is the simple fact of the matter. I looked at the Rottendog and the Pinled ones and I truly don't know how they can make them for the price?
To get anywhere near their prices (for assembled units) I would have to order 5000 units from the factory I use in China and this factory is VERY cheap??? Even at 5000 units I would be paying about AU$35 each ex factory?
My cost price of putting these kits together (buying parts from wholesalers in China) looks to be around the $150~180 so I guess it really isn't worth the excercise?
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Maybe illegal Mexican labour is cheaper than Chinese??
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A few years back I found the plans to convert Williams displays to LEDs which sounded like a great idea till I got a price on the 7 digit LEDs was going to cost hundreds just for the LEDs
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"Not having a go or anything but I reckon Jim would be a bit ticked with that comment!
If you read his site, he says the only thing he can't get made in the US is the boards because of cost.
Definately made in Alabama AFAIK."
Hahahahahhah - ALL components these days are made in China - like it or not, that is the simple fact of the matter. I looked at the Rottendog and the Pinled ones and I truly don't know how they can make them for the price?
To get anywhere near their prices (for assembled units) I would have to order 5000 units from the factory I use in China and this factory is VERY cheap??? Even at 5000 units I would be paying about AU$35 each ex factory?
My cost price of putting these kits together (buying parts from wholesalers in China) looks to be around the $150~180 so I guess it really isn't worth the excercise?
Yeah youré right pretty much all these components are made in China or thereabouts.
The point I wanted to make was sourcing components from O/Seas is always going to be much cheaper than someone like Jaycar.
I speak with some experience because I worked for many years for an electronics parts importer so I know how much companies like Jaycar pay for components. They do have to buy in lots of 100 or lots of 1000 or even 10,000 for things like resistors though and its an awful lot of $$ they have to tie up.
It doesn't surprise me at all the high cost of putting together the kits. And I would think for it to be worthwhile you would have to make at least $50 or$60 ( 30% ) per set to cover all your time expense and trouble.
The company I worked for ( PM me if you want to know) made electronic kits and they typically would double or triple the cost to arrive at a retail price. And this was necessary to cover labour costs and initial outlay of parts and money tied up holding stock of 50 or more kits that may or may not be a big seller.
Another way may be to do what Classic Playfields do and get people who are interested in the project to express their interest and maybe pay a deposit for an initial kit run.
You have obviously done a fair bit of work so far and I'd hate to see this die in the ass because we really do need a few more of these home grown cheaper alternatives for our beloved pinball machines.
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Yep cost would have to be competitive.
Why not just supply the boards and instructions. Then let us track down some decent prices for the parts?
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Futurlec a lot cheaper than Jaycar.
Ian
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Well time for an update on this project. I closely measured the current draw of the display and did some homework on power used by these types of 7 segment LED displays.
I am also in discussions with an LED factory in PRC and they have given me an initial quote to make 5000pcs in the correct colour and size with narrow segments and a comma just like the original glass displays (and very similar to 'other' brands of LED replacements available). The cost per piece is very reasonable but when I saw the tooling cost ^%^.
Anyway - still not deterred I pressed on with a prototype 5V - stand alone - 3 amp power supply to run the 5 new LED display modules. There is NO WAY you could fit five new LED replacement modules af ANY brand and expect the 30 year old 5V power supply to keep up - it would cook for sure! The additional power supply takes 12V AC directly from the mains transformer output and the transformer is perfectly capable of handling the extra current from my measurements.
Following are some pics of the prototype, I used bog standard parts so future repairs would be easy. I expect to have some news on complete kits soon. I intend to look at 4 different kits so far but I am open to suggestions:
(1) Bally - 5 X 6 segment display modules with 5V 3A power supply kit and all cables, clips screws etc
(2) Bally - 4 X 7 segment display modules + 1 X 6 segment module with 5V 3A power supply kit and all cables, clips screws etc
(3) Zaccaria - 5 X 6 segment display modules with 5V 3A power supply kit and all cables, clips screws etc
(4) Zaccaria - 5 X 7 segment display modules with 5V 3A power supply kit and all cables, clips screws etc (not 100% on this - more research needed)
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/5vpstop.jpg)
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/5vpsbottom.jpg)
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Orange would be the predominant color I'd suggest.
The blue would look good on certain machines if you were looking for a custom look.
I would definately be interested in a kit
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"(1) Bally - 5 X 6 segment display modules with 5V 3A power supply kit and all cables, clips screws etc"
That would be your top seller. If there was choice to select the color "at checkout", it would be an easy buying experience.
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The colour choice is not that simple I'm afraid. After paying for the tooling cost of the 7 segment displays so that I can supply the correct ones with narrow segments and commas (to closely match the original glass displays) the minimum order qty is 1000pcs. of the same colour.
So it would certainly be possible to have any colour made but each colour requires a min order of 1000pcs - that would be 33 FULL sets of 5 displays ....
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Would the color be orange (as an initial run) ?
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Orange would have to be the first choice as any other color would not suit all machines.
Ian
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Would the color be orange (as an initial run) ?
Yes, orange - and believe it or not (Gav will know this) there are about 20 'shades' of orange so I am matching as closely as I can. I'll crunch the numbers and see if the project will be worthwhie.
I am trying for two common front boards, one with 6 and another with 7 displays - and two main boards that can be assembled for either 6 or 7 digits, one to suit Bally/Stern and the other to suit Zaccaria.
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I hope it works out worthwhile, Mike - I would commit to a couple of full sets to support the venture ^^^
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Mike, can I please ask what program you use for designing your PCB's?
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Mike, can I please ask what program you use for designing your PCB's?
Sure, after actually buying a couple of VERY expensive programs and finding them WAAAAY too complex for most normal needs I use freepcb for almost everything these days.
I have all the addons and that allows the generation of picture files from the gerbers built right in so I can then import those pics into Corel Draw and invert them, print on tracing paper and make prototype boards - all within a couple of hors of dreaming up a project.
Actually I wouldn't bother with any other program these days as freepcb is just so good.
http://www.freepcb.com/
There is no autorouting BUT there is an online site where you can upload your files and it will route for you - personally I prefer to have control of that and so I manually route all my designs.
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Thanks for the info Mike.
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Would the color be orange (as an initial run) ?
Yes, orange - and believe it or not (Gav will know this) there are about 20 'shades' of orange so I am matching as closely as I can. I'll crunch the numbers and see if the project will be worthwhie.
I am trying for two common front boards, one with 6 and another with 7 displays - and two main boards that can be assembled for either 6 or 7 digits, one to suit Bally/Stern and the other to suit Zaccaria.
The problem with using LEd "off" colours ( anything other than red, blue, green) is colour variation. depending on just who makes them, the colour will not be consistent. An orange LED from one manufacturer will not necessarily match that from another. Its a real problem with LED.. youll see it all the time in your shopping centres... fabricated acrylic letters that are a pale blue colour when lit ( meant to be white), or letters with a creamy look next to letters with a bluey haze. White LED is made with a Blue LED that has a phosphour coating.. this phosphour coating is very thin and therefore subject to variation.
Same applies to Orange and even if using just one manufacture you cannot 100% guarantee that an LED display made in Jan 2011 will exactly match an LED display made 6 months later. Many LED manufacturers do very large runs and when supplying LED to overseas customers will ensure that the batch sent is all from the same BIN. But a second batch may be subject to BIN variation.
Personally, id like to see the LED displays in LED red.. but thats just me.. i like the deep red plus it would negate any colour shift issues.
I dont quite understand why its acceptable to replace white globes with LED on a playfield to get deeper richer colours ( and in many cases using LED brings up a new set of issues with strobing etc), but when it comes to displays we have to match the neon orange.
I hope Mike can get a manufacturer that will guarantee BIN variation wont happen, otherwise the investment in this would be huge and Mike would be sitting on a lot of 7 segment LED numbers for quite some time.
OR.... Pinballers just accept that a shift to LED would result in a deeper red colour and see it as a progression that had to happen.
OR... get original displays made again... do this and ill certainly gas them with neon for you all.
Mike, id be interested to know what current draw is required to change all displays to LED and the efficiency ( if any) of using these over the original cold cathode type
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Gav, It is still a little unknown what the current draw would be exactly at this stage because I would want to confirm my figuring with actual measurements once the displays were made.
However, Using the smaller blue 7 seg LEDs in my prototype a 'worst case' situation with all segments illuminated results in a current of just under 300ma from the 5V rail. It is not practical to use the 180V for supply as it is too high a voltage to deal with and has very low current availability. So with a full set of five display assemblys, and assuming 7 display types you are looking at about 1.5 Amps draw........
Worst case actually applies in this case as all segments on all displays are illuminated during display test. This is why I have commented that there is no way the original 5 volt power supply could be expected to provide an extra 1.5 amps - I believe it is stuggling as it stands....
The add-on 5 volt supply I have made is very, very simple and inexpensive and can provide 5 volts regulated at up to 3 amps so there is a 100% overhead. It is also very easy to wire in as it connects directly across the 12 volt AC terminals of the power transformer.
I am designing the display boards so that a standard 2.1mm DC connector (the round type found on almost all modern electronics) daisy chains the 5V to all boards. The display boards would have two of these connectors on them and I can get leads made with moulded 2.1mm plugs on each end VERY cheaply (actually I already have these made for a Melbourne customer as part of a project I build for them) and the PCB mounting sockets are also cheap. This would make wiring the extra 5 volts dead easy - just plug in the leads and tidy the wiring into the existing loom.
No strain on the already taxed 5 volt supply and plenty of current available to support the new displays. The aftermarket boards currently sold are very good but make no allowance for the 5 volt supply. This is a big mistake IMO.