The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: swinks on June 11, 2013, 08:36:31 PM
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I thought I would be best to start my own thread to not confuse issues and not take over Blktgr74's thread, sorry mate.
I had a sudden issue over the weekend while playing my Baywatch. I was aware of some items that needed correcting but still chasing parts to do a playfield shop.
Issue occured like this
1. was playing a game and all fine, and played a second game and made it to a new video mode where you had to make your character run along the beach by hitting the flipper buttons really fast.
2. played a third game and the sound effects were not there and kept getting the Hoff saying "we will be right back" constantly through the game so something wasn't right as that is normally the ball launch when you lose a ball (I think as haven't played alot)
3. turned it off and waited a minute then turned it back on and had all lights, but no dmd, no sound sequence, no ball check and no boot up
4. lifted the dmd board out and noticed that the F8 fuse blew on the Playfield Power Board (PPB) which is a 4amp which looks after the 50volt supply to the coils - EDIT - this was not the case as the fuse has 2 balls of solder on it giving the effect of blown but was still intact
5. though did replaced the fuse and turned on and nothing, went to pull out the fuse to check and broke the fuse puller and the multi meter had dead batteries - so can't check now until tomorrow as night time now.
I am still waiting on one part (dmd power supply cable) as when I first got the machine it was resetting so suspect the cable etc is a issue not getting the proper 5v. Once I get all the parts I was going to do a shop out of the playfield as some of the flipper coils do not have a diode and incorrect flipper coils amongst a bunch of other switch tidy ups (change out the washing up sponge) etc
could this missing diode on the flipper coils be the cause???? or the rapid flipper activating
anyone have any clues, any advice would be much appreciated
some findings to be posted in a minute
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a pinsider told me to check the ribbon cable between the cpu and the dmd board, by swapping it around and isolate a issue with the cable. Stupid me did not take any photos initially and blind freddie did not have the reading glasses and assumed the cable would plug into a notched plug base so didn't take notice of the cable orientation - &^&
after some research of the manual which didn't show much, then the net on ribbon cables states commonly the red wire on one side is the no:1 wire. Can someone confirm this please and even better compare my photos to their baywatch please.
lesson learnt take photos and sketches
attached are the screen shots for the 2 boards for the 2 plugs
and
2 photos, one the cpu ribbon (CN22 plug) which I believe is correct to industry standard, the other is the dmd plug (J3) which I have plugged in opposite to industry standard so board specs can be seen with the red stripped wire on the 25/26 end (no I did not power up - just for a photo and have already swapped around)
Can someone confirm that my beliefs of the cable plugged in is correct which includes the dmd one being swapped around.
I still haven't powered up a thing as did not want to risk further damage
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Red should be on pin 1. (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/11/equqy6ah.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/11/avuqu8e6.jpg) hope this helps
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I still can't check any voltages as the fuse in my multi meter is blown and no places locally have the one I need, not sure when that happened but waiting on some of those fuses and a pinball pack of fuses to come care of Homepin ^^^
I did disconnect the below ribbon and checked all the plugs and chips by pushing them all into place and powered the machine up and noticed that none of the 3 cpu leds light up at all - so appears power supply is a issue to the cpu
I also attached a photo of what appears a hacked power cable and a screen shot of the power board - the hack plug connects to CN5
Black wire does marry up with ground
Red wire marry's up with +5V
I have ordered a replacement lead from pinballlife to correct this as this current plug is a tad loose
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Red should be on pin 1. (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/11/equqy6ah.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/11/avuqu8e6.jpg) hope this helps
cheers mate
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I still can't check any voltages as the fuse in my multi meter is blown and no places locally have the one I need, not sure when that happened but waiting on some of those fuses and a pinball pack of fuses to come care of Homepin ^^^
I did disconnect the below ribbon and checked all the plugs and chips by pushing them all into place and powered the machine up and noticed that none of the 3 cpu leds light up at all - so appears power supply is a issue to the cpu
I also attached a photo of what appears a hacked power cable and a screen shot of the power board - the hack plug connects to CN5
Black wire does marry up with ground
Red wire marry's up with +5V
I have ordered a replacement lead from pinballlife to correct this as this current plug is a tad loose
I know that plug. This is what mine looks like(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/11/ubygu7et.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/11/aqana6u3.jpg)
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thanks for the photos ^^^
when looking at your plug and the schematic, I could be wrong but it looks like
one black goes to - key ?????
other black goes to - +5VDC
this could mean a grounding problem and could solve a issue with your machine that you were talking about on your thread / boot up problem
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Ok thanks ill look into that plug some more and see what's what.
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I've got black on 1&2 and red on 4&5 which should be right?
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yes you are correct and mine is ass about - I was looking at the plug on the board diagram the incorrect way.
But with mine - it was working so will have to trace the wires further down and check that the wires are ass about there as well and not causing other issues.
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If you need any more pictures as a reference just sing out happy to help out.
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Ok, testing has started but someone will have to help me narrow done the problem
- got a fuse for the multimeter so finally can do some testing
- I am aware the power wires on the power board are ass about and have drawn a sketch so will work out if things are crossed over down the line later today but do know that one set of black and red go to the dmd itself and the other set to the dmd board. I know it worked in the past so will not mess around to much at this stage.
- first test: disconnected the leads off the dmd and dmd board and tested voltage at the top rhs test points and the CN5 outlet of the power board with the following results:
* ground / +5v = 4.83 v
* ground / +12v = 11.77 v
- second test: connected power leads to the dmd and dmd board and got the following results:
* ground / +5v = 0.07 v
* ground / +12v = 12.77 v
- third test: with just the dmd power lead disconnected and got the following result:
* ground / +5v = 0.07 v
- fourth test: with the dmd power lead connected and the dmd board power lead disconnected and got the following result:
* ground / +5v = 0.25v
- fifth test: disconnected both power leads and did a machine test as I noticed in the first test the light sequence was on. I pushed start and was able to have a game with flippers etc working.
So from research I know these large dmd's need a good 5v source and with nothing connected it is just under that but when either dmd or dmd board is plugged in, it drops to nothing. I know the game works and the cpu isn't dead (yeah).
Can someone point me in the direction if something has failed on the power board as my gut thinks that but I am definitely no expert with electronics or could it be a bridge rectifier.
Help Please, and explain for a dummie please :)
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forgot to mention with the power leads disconnected and game making sounds and operating the left and middle cpu led were constantly on when I had a quick look - if that helps at all.
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your +5 volt rail is low even with out the dmd connected "+5v = 4.83 v"
It could that the large transistor on the heat sink is faulty or a faulty capacitor on the power supply.
the +5 volts gets its supply from the +12 volts so i doubt its the bridge.
there is one more test you can try. with the dmd and controller connected
Black lead to gnd
Red lead to the left side of R6 (the big white resistor under the heat sink)
Then Red lead to the right side of R6
if both tests show 0.** volts then the fault is in the power supply
if one test shows +5v and the other shows 0.** volts then the fault is on the dmd driver board
But going back to what i said at the top of this post 4.83V is to low at the power supply so you need to sort that out
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your +5 volt rail is low even with out the dmd connected "+5v = 4.83 v"
It could that the large transistor on the heat sink is faulty or a faulty capacitor on the power supply.
the +5 volts gets its supply from the +12 volts so i doubt its the bridge.
there is one more test you can try. with the dmd and controller connected
Black lead to gnd
Red lead to the left side of R6 (the big white resistor under the heat sink)
Then Red lead to the right side of R6
if both tests show 0.** volts then the fault is in the power supply
if one test shows +5v and the other shows 0.** volts then the fault is on the dmd driver board
But going back to what i said at the top of this post 4.83V is to low at the power supply so you need to sort that out
thanks for the guide, I did the test with the following results:
no plugs to the dmd - white resistor
lhs = 4.83v , rhs = 5.05v
with just the dmd lead in - white resistor
lhs = 0.39v , rhs = 0.55v
with just the dmd board lead in - white resistor
lhs = 0.06v , rhs = 0.19v
with both dmd & dmd board leads in - white resistor
lhs = 0.06v , rhs = 0.18v
so based on that it looks like a power supply issue !@#
does that mean the power board ????
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yep. power supply
if there was a short in the driver board then you would have 5V on right side and 0 on left side with the driver board connected
easiest thing to replace is the transistor on the power supply board (no soldering required)
replace it with a 2N6059 transistor.
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if that doesn't fix it then you will need to replace a few of the capacitors on the power supply.
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yep. power supply
if there was a short in the driver board then you would have 5V on right side and 0 on left side with the driver board connected
easiest thing to replace is the transistor on the power supply board (no soldering required)
replace it with a 2N6059 transistor.
could I the transistor at Jaycar?
also do you know the what type the capacitors are off hand?
thanks again for your help
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checked out the parts I need for the power board to hopefully solve the problem
TR5 - Transistor 2N6059
C2 - Capacitor 100uf25v
C3 - Capacitor 47uf63v
C7 - Capacitor 330uf25v
challenge now is finding them, Jaycar only have the first 2 capacitors and that's it.
Can anyone recommend where is a good place to get them, found them at Farnell but have to buy them in lots of 5 & 10k - slight overkill.
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Gday Jady .
How about Ed at GPE http://www.greatplainselectronics.com.
You can use a 2N6284 as a replacement for the probably obsolete transistor in your game .
Cheers
Dave
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checked out the parts I need for the power board to hopefully solve the problem
TR5 - Transistor 2N6059
C2 - Capacitor 100uf25v
C3 - Capacitor 47uf63v
C7 - Capacitor 330uf25v
challenge now is finding them, Jaycar only have the first 2 capacitors and that's it.
Can anyone recommend where is a good place to get them, found them at Farnell but have to buy them in lots of 5 & 10k - slight overkill.
You should be able to use a 470uF 25v cap (which Jaycar have) for C7 in a pinch, i've looked at the circuit and since its on the 5 volt line its value isnt all that critical so it should be ok.
Its usually ok to go slightly higher in value but never lower.
Hope this helps!! Cheers... Mitch
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cheers for help guys, beaky has come to the rescue and sending me the 4 parts in the mail, so should be able to do install and next stage of testing by next weekend, also should have the new dmd power lead kit from pinball life as well
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Thanks Beaky got the parts and now have to do some installing and hopefully the problem will be solved ^^^
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ok I installed all the following parts
TR5 - Transistor 2N6057
C2 - Capacitor 100uf25v
C3 - Capacitor 47uf63v
C7 - Capacitor 330uf25v
with the +- in the correct direction and unfortunately no change in voltages, with the dmd not plugged in still only getting 4.83v and with the dmd plugged in 0.05v at the 5v test point and on the power supply to the dmd as well.
I also tested the white resistor and still get the same results as listed before
no plugs to the dmd - white resistor
lhs = 4.83v , rhs = 5.05v
with just the dmd lead in - white resistor
lhs = 0.39v , rhs = 0.55v
with just the dmd board lead in - white resistor
lhs = 0.06v , rhs = 0.19v
with both dmd & dmd board leads in - white resistor
lhs = 0.06v , rhs = 0.18v
Beaky or anyone else have any clues, please
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on pinside a recommendation was made to me to check the bridge rectifier
utoplay=1&rel=0
I did the test and one leg beeped so I am now assuming it is shorted based on this video.
I will have to find one of these and do a replacement.
I did notice when I was checking the fuses as well that there was a 5A SB in a 8A SB (F4 location) and a 7.5A in a 5A SB (F6 location), therefore a higher amperage was allowed in to potentially cause damage - is there anything else to check or just order the bridge rectifier at this stage?
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Just wanting to double check
the schematics say a CM3501 Bridge Rectifier is what is on the power board so on the net the specs for this one is 35A and 100V
I called jaycar and they have the same dimensionally bridge rectifier which is ZR1324 with specs of 35A and 400V
Can I use this as an option to solve the next stage of the repair?
Am I putting myself at any risk with this change?
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the jay car bridge will be fine
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Are you having any luck?
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the voltage on the RHS of the resistor should not be dropping off like that. !@#
was there any corrosion under the capacitors when you removed them?
try doing this with the dmd display and driver boards disconnected:
Connect a 906 flasher lamp across the +5 and GND test points on the power supply and then test the voltages at the resistor
I am just trying to see how much load the +5v can take before it starts dropping off and I often use a 906 wedge flash lamp to determine this
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no corrosion that was a obvious leak with the c2 and c3 had that plastic black and the other one did look brownish - C7 330uf 25v which is to the left of the large white block resistor.
I went to Jaycar and got the part but the guys there tested the bridge on the board and they said it looked fine, I worked out the novice in me had the setting on the multimeter set to the continuity sound test &^&.
I watched a few more youtube vids and corrected my multimeter setting and did the check again. (test reference is viewing from the back of the board) This time doing the tests from the positive to the AC's got 583 on the bottom AC and 596 on the right side AC and obviously switch the leads and nothing. Now with the positive on the neg of the bridge and touching the above AC got 580 and then touching the left AC got 660 and switch the leads again and nowing. In the video it said readings should be between 400 and 600, one is a bit higher by 10% - is this still ok.
I looked on youtube to work out how to check the white block resistor which is rated at 5W 0.12 ohm symbol and then a J
I got the following readings with the multimeter set at the following ohm setting
200 gave 0.5
2k gave 0.001
sound test gave 001
would this suggest a possible problem with the white resistor not matching the 0.12????? !@#
I will wait to do any globe tests until someone can confirm a possible suspect white block resistor
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The resistor sounds like it should be ok, it's hard to measure 0.12 ohms as it is a very low value.
On the 200 ohm setting touch your leads together and see what value you get I.e. 2 or 3 ohms, not sure exactly what you will get on your meter
Then measure the resistor and see what value you get.
The difference between the two readings will be the value of the resistor
I know you have already answered me swinks but i thought i would post it to help anyone else that needs to measure a low value resistor
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yes to help others
the reading of just the leads was 0.4 and the resistor was 0.5 so difference is approx 0.1 which is close enough to say that a fair chance that it is ok.
thanks beaky.
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I did a load test with a 89 globe directly to the grd and 5v test points to create a load and on the white resistor measured 4.89v on the lhs and 5.05v on the rhs with the dmd disconnected.
though after doing the globe test again tested the grd and 5v test point and get 4.83v and reading the following site, they are saying anything as low as 4.9v can be a problem....
http://smiley.tzo.com/pinball/backups/dataeast_repair_guide-index3.htm
"It operates best with logic +5 volts right at 5.0 volts! Any drop in voltage (to even 4.9 volts) can cause the display CPU to shut down or reset. As these games get older, the connectors fatique, and small amounts of resistance appear. Or the grounding strap going to the display board can become loose. These problems can cause the +5 volts fed to the display to drop enough to cause problems."
now I just don't know where to continue on....... any suggestions
though I should get my power cable upgrade from pinball life this week sometime
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take a photo of wiring at the dmd driver board and the power supply for the +5volts (re use the previous photo of the power supply if nothing has been changed)
after looking at the wiring at the power supply picture you supplied before it looks like the wiring is incorrect but you said it just stopped working so i assume the wiring at the dmd driver end is also arse about? !@#
or did someone change something after it stopped working?
^^^
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all wiring is the same since owning the machine so I am assuming some hacking and posibly cross overs, just didn't want to introduce new issues if it was working for all that time.
Will hopefully take some photos tonight.
Cheers
Jady
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no problems
but ^&^ anyway :lol
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yep ^&^ ^&^ ^&^ ^&^ , a bit over it and a bit down, whole family is sick, even considering selling up all the pins
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yep ^&^ ^&^ ^&^ ^&^ , a bit over it and a bit down, whole family is sick, even considering selling up all the pins
Cash in your IM while you can get top $$.
^^^
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all I need is confirmation off someone with a operational Baywatch of what plugs are right and not right as if I put this updated power lead the power will be opposite to what is currently wired in.
Power Supply Board
CN1
1-purple
2-orange
3-orange
4-
5-
6-
7-
8-
9-
10-grey / green
11-grey
12-grey/white
CN2
1-
2-
3-black
4-
5-
6-black
CN3
1-
2-
3-
4-red
5-red
6-red/white
7-
8-
9-
10-
CN4
1-black
2-black
3-black
4-black
5-blue
6-blue
7-blue
8-blue
9-black
10-black
11-black
12-black
CN5
1-black x 2
2-
3-
4-
5-
6-red x 2
7-
8-
these wires are in correct as schematic says 5+ is at 1,3,4,5 and ground at 6,7,8 - THIS IS WHERE I REALLY NEED CONFIRMATION OF THE DMD CONTROLLER BOARD AND DMD DISPLAY
CN6
1-
2-
3-black
4-black
5-black
6-
7-grey
8-grey
9-grey
10-grey
11-
12-
13-grey/red
14-black/grey
15-
CN7
1-brown/red
2-
3-red
4-
5-
CN8
1-brown
2-yellow
3-green x 2
4-purple
5-
6-white/brown
7-white/yellow
8-white/green
9-white/purple
CN9
1-yellow
2-yellow
3-white/yellow
4-white/yellow
DMD Display Board
J1
1-red (goes to CN5)
2-
3-black (goes to CN5)
4-
5-
DMD Display
J7
1-blue
2-black
3-black/red
4-red
this actually has a junction plug and noticed a wire switches from one plug to the other
blue - turns into purple (goes to BR3)
black - black/red (goes to BR3)
black/red - black (goes to CN5)
red - red (goes to CN5)
should the black join the black
should the black/red join the black/red
also can the one or both of these boards work with the 5+ and ground wired in opposite, but figuring if someone can confirm what these is wired at (ensure yours is working) then I can swap around before I connect up the dmd fix cable as don't want to bugger something up.
If someone can help then I can list the info and can only aid others.
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here is the photo of the plug cross over as well as a photo from the net of the BR3 that the mixed wires link up to and also pinwiki said to consider a regulator chip
Question - how do I count the leg number on a chip to see if this could possibly be my issue
lastly this is the pinwiki site
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Data_East/Sega
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I should have my new power supply board by Wednesday. So I may be able to offer some help later in the week once I get it up and running.
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I should have my new power supply board by Wednesday. So I may be able to offer some help later in the week once I get it up and running.
What type of board did you get....
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Got a rebuilt one out of a Maverick
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here is the photo of the plug cross over as well as a photo from the net of the BR3 that the mixed wires link up to and also pinwiki said to consider a regulator chip
Question - how do I count the leg number on a chip to see if this could possibly be my issue
lastly this is the pinwiki site
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Data_East/Sega
one end of the chip will have a semi circle indent in it or / and a small dot next to a pin. this pin is pin 1.
or with the indent to the top pin 1 will be the top left pin
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spent a 5-6 hours researching and fixing and PLAYING #*#
- firstly the Baywatch schematics are poor for the view of the power board (what colours go where) but realised after a little while that the next super large DMD released might be the same in wiring which it was and the schematics for the power supply board were much clear. Did my check and everything was fairly good except how I recorded colours next to numbers yesterday was incorrect for a few but the colours were all correct so tick done - see below the Frankenstein schematic for a reference for others
- tried to install the suggested patch power lead and didn't have the right molex tool (I think) so will see beaky to make / supply an piggy back adaptor
- discovered that at some stage I reversed the CN5 plug as it was very worn and the plug can go in both ways hence why the board was not getting 5+ to the correct pins and me being the fool for not taking a photo and making notes before pulling things apart. &^&
- returned the CN5 plug to the correct orientation and the sort of worked on and off on a few start ups so tried to bend the pins a little on the power supply board to firm things up a little and I was in action - playing 20-30 games and left on for a few hours and no blank outs at all.
lesson learnt - take photos, take notes and understand the schematic better before launching in to a repair.
- what to do now - send the leads and power supply board to beaky to get a check over and the CN5 lead remade and the socket on the board replaced plus a check over as still wasn't pulling 5+v and one track looks a little suspect but dmd was operating on 4.83v which defied the articles on what was stated it needed.
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Congrats Jady, nothing quite like nailing a problem, although a bit frustrating when you reverse a plug liek that - i've done similar things plenty of times. Best bit of all of it is that you understand the machine, boards and schematics a whole heap better after an epic like this one!!
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Well done glad you got it sorted. Hope I can post that I have got mine going later in the week. Oh, and thank you for such an in depth post as it is and will be invaluable to myself and others.
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I should also add that I swapped the black's and black with red strip on the plug detailed a few posts ago and no issue and also that I did power up a few times with the 5 volts and earth reversed and it appears no damage to the display or display board
no worries Blktgr74, I know there is alot of info and a journey in the learning but hopefully helps others, so threads when you do a net search that just stop and you never see the end results of what the problem was
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after looking over the up grade cable the only thing i used was the wire.
the whole idea of the upgrade cable is to reduce voltage drop so why do they use a longer cable and use the same type of connector as the so called faulty original? !@#
The resistance of the single factory cable is 0.1 ohm,
The resistance of the "upgrade cable" is 0.1 ohm.
the problem is the connection between the header pin and the pin in the housing so you can run a 10mm square cable between these points and it still wont fix the problem.
my solution is:
1: Replace (or clean) the Header pins at CN5
(http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p671/beaky2/SAM_2142_zpse453df97.jpg?t=1373728632)
2: Cut the black and red wires and use the trufcon crimp pins at each end. 4 at the power supply end and 2 at the display driver board end
3: fit 2 trufcon crimp pins at the power supply end for the display ( most displays used on this machine only use the +12V from the dedicated bridge but do this any way in case you have a display that needs the +5V
(http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p671/beaky2/SAM_2141_zpse5777b7b.jpg)
4: fit the keys into the housings
(http://i1345.photobucket.com/albums/p671/beaky2/SAM_2140_zpsb9c6ecf0.jpg)
5:shave all the hair off the hairy Knuckles shown in the pictures :lol
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Thanks Beaky
I got the board 2 days ago and had a chance to install today and test - PERFECT - so a big thankyou as the screen works and the volts are up to 5.22volts at the test point of the board and on the white block resistor the the volts on one side was 5.22 and other side 5.40. Also that dmd plug is so much more positive fit - nice and firm.
So very happy, thank you very much Beaky. ^^^
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Thanks Beaky
I got the board 2 days ago and had a chance to install today and test - PERFECT - so a big thankyou as the screen works and the volts are up to 5.22volts at the test point of the board and on the white block resistor the the volts on one side was 5.22 and other side 5.40. Also that dmd plug is so much more positive fit - nice and firm.
So very happy, thank you very much Beaky. ^^^
your welcome
other than replacing a few connectors the only other part i changed was the regulator I.C which brought the voltage up to 5.22 volts on the 5 volt rail at the power supply.
was the dmd display connector fitted to the upgrade cable that you sent me already fitted to the cable when you bought it or did you fit it before you sent it to me?
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Thanks Beaky
I got the board 2 days ago and had a chance to install today and test - PERFECT - so a big thankyou as the screen works and the volts are up to 5.22volts at the test point of the board and on the white block resistor the the volts on one side was 5.22 and other side 5.40. Also that dmd plug is so much more positive fit - nice and firm.
So very happy, thank you very much Beaky. ^^^
your welcome
other than replacing a few connectors the only other part i changed was the regulator I.C which brought the voltage up to 5.22 volts on the 5 volt rail at the power supply.
was the dmd display connector fitted to the upgrade cable that you sent me already fitted to the cable when you bought it or did you fit it before you sent it to me?
The connector was already fitted, therefore because not pressed in properly no volts to the display
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no problem
you bought a lead to fix a problem yet they sold you a lead with a problem. :lol (see photos)
thought i would ask before i posted these pics,