The Aussie Pinball Arcade

Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: Peach on April 05, 2009, 04:30:56 PM

Title: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 05, 2009, 04:30:56 PM
Picked up a Gottlieb Fast Draw today,and I`m already starting to think I may have taken on more than I can handle.First off I wanted to see if it would fire up so I have soldered the black wire on the transformer to the red one to convert the volts but as soon as I plugged it in blew the safety switch..I`m sure that`s what I was told to do !@#  Anyway if anyone has any suggestions I`m all ears.
Cheers Peach  %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 05, 2009, 04:55:12 PM

First thing to do is grab a set of schematics to ascertain where that back / red wire is meant to go.

Second thing is to remember that you should not really be working around the transformer unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing !

Tripping the "safety switch" is a signal that there is something seriously wrong.

Can you provide a pic for us Peach ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 05, 2009, 05:13:32 PM
Hey Peaches i have all the internals for a fast draw out in the shed ill take some photos to show you which wires go where if this will help.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 05, 2009, 07:16:33 PM
Hey Peaches i have all the internals for a fast draw out in the shed ill take some photos to show you which wires go where if this will help.

Thanks Daniel,any help appreciated.. %$%


First thing to do is grab a set of schematics to ascertain where that back / red wire is meant to go.

Second thing is to remember that you should not really be working around the transformer unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing !

Tripping the "safety switch" is a signal that there is something seriously wrong.

Can you provide a pic for us Peach ?

Yes you are right Nino,I have no idea what I`m doing,but I`ll try anything once..lol.
Will post a pic later.. %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 05, 2009, 08:20:35 PM
Hey Peaches i have all the internals for a fast draw out in the shed ill take some photos to show you which wires go where if this will help.

Thanks Daniel,any help appreciated.. %$%


First thing to do is grab a set of schematics to ascertain where that back / red wire is meant to go.

Second thing is to remember that you should not really be working around the transformer unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing !

Tripping the "safety switch" is a signal that there is something seriously wrong.

Can you provide a pic for us Peach ?

Yes you are right Nino,I have no idea what I`m doing,but I`ll try anything once..lol.
Will post a pic later.. %$%


Thanks Peach - we will have it going shortly

 #*#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ajlaird on April 05, 2009, 08:54:29 PM
Yes you are right Nino,I have no idea what I`m doing,but I`ll try anything once..lol.
Will post a pic later.. %$%

I think he is worried you will only get to try it once...
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 05, 2009, 09:19:10 PM
Ill have photos for you tomorrow arvo sorry no light in the garden shed
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 05, 2009, 09:34:02 PM
The arrow is where I put the black wire and the cross is where I took it from... ^&^
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 06, 2009, 05:33:47 PM
Hey Peaches
            I hope this photo helps one wire goes to the front  bottom lug on the transformer a the other goes to the fuse on the bottom panel.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 06, 2009, 05:55:50 PM
Ok..It`s pretty easy to confuse me...I had to change the power cord to an aussie one so now that I have done that it is still tripping the safety switch,I have three wires,one going to the fuse,one going to the red on the transformer and one going to the earth..but I think I should probably let someone who knows what they are doing sort that part out before I get fried.. !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 06, 2009, 06:00:20 PM
Earth (Green wire) should be bolted to the transformer bade
Blue goes to the bottom left lug. Not the red wire
Brown or black  goes to the fuse

But yes if your not confident pay a professional
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 06, 2009, 06:07:34 PM
I have the brown on the fuse,green on the earth,so I might change the blue and see what happens.. !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 06, 2009, 06:18:56 PM
Put it onto the lug in the photo and you should be right just switch it on at the wall when you test it.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 06, 2009, 06:35:25 PM
Ok..it didn`t trip the safety switch but it did blow the fuse near the transformer...
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 06, 2009, 06:40:43 PM
Ok..it didn`t trip the safety switch but it did blow the fuse near the transformer...

Check the actual fuse value - they are different for 110V/240V. If you have "tapped" 240V then the fuse should have blown
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 06, 2009, 06:50:03 PM
So what sort of fuse do I use ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 06, 2009, 06:54:48 PM
So what sort of fuse do I use ?

Should be a sticker near the transformer called "Line Fuse" - which I assume is the one that is blowing. Might have to consult the schematics otherwise.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 06, 2009, 07:07:08 PM
Its a 5amp Slo blow fuse according to the schematic to my jungle princess
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 07, 2009, 05:31:05 PM
So if it keeps blowing the fuse would that be because the wiring to the transformer is wrong  !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ajlaird on April 07, 2009, 07:08:18 PM
There's a big chance.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 07, 2009, 07:31:23 PM
Very hard to say. Lift the playfield up and post a photo. 
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 07, 2009, 09:06:28 PM
 !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 07, 2009, 09:13:07 PM
Ill have to move some stuff around in the garden shed as that transformer look sdifferent to the one i sent in the photos
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 09, 2009, 03:35:53 PM
Hey Peaches here is a scan of a schematic of how that adjustment plug is wired up might be able to compare it to yours and see if its set up for 110 or 240
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: The pinballist formally known as Dean Morgan on April 09, 2009, 03:45:37 PM
Seems to me in your early posts the red & black wire are the main 240 v line in.  Red +ve and Black -ve.  If you shorted them together it would trip the RCD.

In your new lead Brown is active (+ve), Blue is neutral (-ve) and green is earth.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 09, 2009, 04:27:46 PM
Ive been comparing the photos ive received with the transformer i have here and i think its a 110v transformer only as i cant see the other lugs to adjust the input voltage.    Would a non export game have a 110v transformer only as this machine doesnt have the adjustment plug and it doesnt look like it ever did?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: The pinballist formally known as Dean Morgan on April 09, 2009, 04:50:28 PM
Ive been comparing the photos ive received with the transformer i have here and i think its a 110v transformer only as i cant see the other lugs to adjust the input voltage.    Would a non export game have a 110v transformer only as this machine doesnt have the adjustment plug and it doesnt look like it ever did?

This is quite probable as it would require additional tappings on the transformer winding to allow it to be switched from 115v to 240v.  This would add to production costs of the transformer, so maybe they only fitted the 115 to 240v on export models??  However it is a bit hard to tell from the pictures as they are not totally clear.  Is it possible to take more pics of the trany from differnt angles and take them of all the wires.  Maybe able to tell then.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 09, 2009, 04:57:46 PM
Thats what i thought Dean thanks.   Ive seen other pics of the tranformer and it is missing the other lugs.  Would it be better to replace the transformer with a local one or just get a step down transformer?  Stepdown will be easier for peach to install im thinking? But i dont have any to send her but i do have the local type.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 09, 2009, 06:44:56 PM

Looks to be a Local machine set for 110V. There are no "jumpers" for 240V, this will need a step down transformer. I'm sure someone here knows a source - either Gavin or Tony ?

 :2cents:
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 09, 2009, 06:51:30 PM
Thanks for all your help guys... %$%  %$% 
I will see if I can get the transformer changed... %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ajlaird on April 09, 2009, 06:53:48 PM
I was going to say there are plenty of stepdowns on eBay, but it would be neater just to swap in a transformer with 240V in and correct voltages out.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 09, 2009, 07:38:13 PM
Let me know if your upto the challenge of swapping transformers Peach and ill send you the transformer off my demolished Fast draw
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 09, 2009, 07:43:13 PM
Thanks for the offer Daniel,I will let you know if I need to take you up on that.... %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 11, 2009, 06:47:27 PM
Hey Mate
                Ive dug out that transformer for you ill set it up permanently for 240v so you dont need all the plug set up all you will need to do is take wires off your transformer and swap em to the new one.  How doe that sound to you?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 11, 2009, 09:41:58 PM
Thanks Daniel,I am getting a stepdown tomorrow,I will try that first and let you know how I go.
Cheers Peach  %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 11, 2009, 09:46:15 PM
Cool thats probably the easy way but if you need it its here for ya
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 12, 2009, 08:40:59 PM
I finally got it fired up... $#$
Now to sort out the problems...
The score reels don`t reset,and there is a coil that just keeps on going.
Where do I start ?  @@^
 %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 12, 2009, 08:45:08 PM
Which coil is it getting stuck?  First thing i do with a new machine is open it up and manually press all the relays to make sure each switch either opens or closes as it should. I also give each contact a light clean with a points file or piece of cardboard depending on their condition.  Try this first and see how you go
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 12, 2009, 09:53:09 PM

OK - So a score reel just keeps going around and not resetting to ZERO ? Or are they not moving at all ?

As Daniel suggested - can you determine which coil is stuck on ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 12, 2009, 09:57:07 PM
It is the step up step down unit,I think that is what it is called..
The score reels are not moving.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 12, 2009, 10:01:11 PM
The stepper units are a bit harder to fix. What you need to look for is when the coil that gets stuck on does anything on the stepper unit move? If nothing moves it might be siezed.  Try moving the unit by hand to see if it moves if it does then there may be a switch thats not being activated by the coil to tell it to stop energising. Which stepper is it? Is it in the backbox or under the playfield?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 12, 2009, 10:02:06 PM
The stepper unit will have a name on a label (if it has not fallen off) - Coin unit, Player unit etc.. If there is no name - can you please post the general are of the unit ? ie Head - top lhs etc ?

Here's the start up sequence for your game, explaining what should be happening ;

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#start

Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 12, 2009, 10:30:32 PM
Top right hand side of the playfield
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 13, 2009, 11:55:35 AM

That looks like the Ball count Unit - I don't have 4 Player I can reference - But I think it is (Daniel - can you look at yours?). Peach - there looks to be a spring loose - just "hanging" - would that be right ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 12:25:57 PM
There is a spring just hanging there but I can`t work out where it would have been.. %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 13, 2009, 02:05:13 PM

That spring should not even be there - the spring for this unit has to be on the other side of the stepper. This would suggest that the unit may have been modified - ie - not repaired correctly. Peach - Can we have a picture of the other side of the stepper unit ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 02:11:40 PM
Other side  %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 13, 2009, 07:06:14 PM
A few things to check out on this side Peach are

Where there is a pink arrow make sure these pivot freely

Where there is a Blue arrow push this in and out to check if its turning

Where there is the green arrow check that the switches open and close when the rod hits them.

Nino anything ive missed
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 13, 2009, 07:14:38 PM
sorry i forgot the pic ^&^
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 07:16:34 PM
Yes to all of the above..
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 13, 2009, 07:20:38 PM
As for the other side it looks as if when the coil gets pulled in it doesnt get closed by the coil. If it doesnt move the switch so that id does . See the pic below
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 08:14:37 PM
The coil with the red arrow doesn`t stop and the one with the blue arrow doesn`t move at all.... %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 13, 2009, 08:55:41 PM
That means its trying to reset itself to zero. Check that the switch it hits closes to tell it that its down.  Does it come back up when it is turned off?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 09:10:07 PM
The coil in the first pic comes back up when it is turned off...  ^&^
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 13, 2009, 09:23:18 PM
LOL these machines can be frustrating.   With the game turned off try moving that coil by hand and see if the wheel returns to the start then try pushing the other coid to see if it goes forward?  If this works push the coil that locks on until the wheel wont go back anymore. Then check the switches on the opposite side to make sure the switch has opened some up and closed others. If this is all working then the fault is someplace else

Have you visually checked that each switch opens and closes as it should on the relay board?  When you switch the game on does any other relays move?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 13, 2009, 09:53:17 PM

Have we confirmed this is in fact the ball count unit ?

This stepper should use one coil to advance each "step" and the other coil will reset the unit back to "home".

If the coil is still activating - then the set of contacts that detect the unit is "home" are not gapped. so the coil is waiting for the set of contacts to be closed.

However - I'm thinking as to why this coil is activating on power on. Is the score motor running ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 10:00:11 PM
The score motor keeps running on start up..
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 13, 2009, 10:04:50 PM
The score motor keeps running on start up..

Silly Question time - Is the ball in the machine ?

Can you check to see if the switch is closed in the ball outhole (where the ball drains).

Daniel - Can you check your machine and confirm what stepper it is please ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 13, 2009, 10:07:10 PM
From memory the ball count on this game is in the backbox i think the one in the pic is the bonus count
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 13, 2009, 10:28:38 PM
From memory the ball count on this game is in the backbox i think the one in the pic is the bonus count

You are right - I was thinking about a Wedgehead - same unit - except in the head.

Bonus unit.

OK - do both Drop target banks reset and leave all the targets up ? Does the drop target reset coils keep firing ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: millsy on April 13, 2009, 10:35:23 PM
Have you cleaned ALLswitch blades at score motor.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: illawarra_steelers on April 13, 2009, 10:44:38 PM
Peach,

Sounds like the score reels - especially being a 4 player EM.

When all the score units are at zero all the contacts should be open.

My money is that being the problem.

With EM (especially multiplayers) you will need to take a few steps back before you go forward.

Keep at it!

Can be frustrating as all hell but you will get there!
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 10:54:17 PM
From memory the ball count on this game is in the backbox i think the one in the pic is the bonus count

You are right - I was thinking about a Wedgehead - same unit - except in the head.

Bonus unit.

OK - do both Drop target banks reset and leave all the targets up ? Does the drop target reset coils keep firing ?

The drop targets reset but then go straight back down all except for a couple that stay up.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 10:58:31 PM
The score motor keeps running on start up..

Silly Question time - Is the ball in the machine ?

Can you check to see if the switch is closed in the ball outhole (where the ball drains).

Daniel - Can you check your machine and confirm what stepper it is please ?

I have tried it with the ball in....
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 11:01:44 PM
Peach,

Sounds like the score reels - especially being a 4 player EM.

When all the score units are at zero all the contacts should be open.

My money is that being the problem.

With EM (especially multiplayers) you will need to take a few steps back before you go forward.

Keep at it!

Can be frustrating as all hell but you will get there!

Thanks Tony,I have had a look at them and from what I can see they look like they are open,but then I`m not real sure what I`m looking at half the time.. :lol
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 11:03:53 PM
Have you cleaned ALLswitch blades at score motor.


No..
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 13, 2009, 11:24:34 PM


OK - Do both target banks drop all the yellow targets, leaving just the black target raised ? Sounds to me like the game thinks it is in the "bonus" mode - if that is the case. So the game is simply "confused" as one of the switches on the score motor is out.

I'm with Millsy - the score motor contacts need to be cleaned.

Peach - This is covered in clay's guide ;

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#motor

You just need to clean the contacts - not adjust.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 13, 2009, 11:28:43 PM
Thanks Nino,it is the black ones that stay up.
I will give the score motor contacts a clean and see what happens then... %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: millsy on April 13, 2009, 11:31:56 PM
Dont miss any like I did  &^&
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 13, 2009, 11:33:58 PM
Thanks Nino,it is the black ones that stay up.
I will give the score motor contacts a clean and see what happens then... %$%

I'm sure ALL targets are meant to be UP to start off with (My Amazon hunt is exactly the same), but after you knock them all down, just the black targets should remain up.

Score motor will be the way to go here - good pickup millsy - should be a general "rule of thumb".
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 14, 2009, 09:44:56 PM
The relay that is marked "500 point add bonus relay unit" is clicking,are these just meant to click into place ??
 %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 14, 2009, 10:24:58 PM
The relay that is marked "500 point add bonus relay unit" is clicking,are these just meant to click into place ??
 %$%

This is after cleaning the score motor contacts ?

Nothing has changed ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 14, 2009, 11:53:51 PM
I did clean the score motor contacts,maybe not good enough  !@#,I also took out each score reel and set it to zero... %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 14, 2009, 11:58:41 PM

So there has been a change since cleaning the score motor ?

The reported initial problem was the Bonus unit coil was continually on.

Now the "500 point add bonus relay unit" is clicking ?

Peach - is it serving the ball out for "ball 1" yet ?

Are all the targets up ? Or are they still leaving the black ones up only ?

You can clean the contacts on the "500 point add bonus relay unit" and see if it makes a change.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: millsy on April 16, 2009, 05:38:28 PM
Any luck yet Peach ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 16, 2009, 10:26:46 PM
Any luck yet Peach ?

Not yet Kev...Just taking a bit of a break from it for a couple of days...it`s enough to send you crazy..  :D
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 19, 2009, 06:53:10 PM
Got back into it today. I have been cleaning the contacts but still no change yet.. ^&^
When I open the contact in the pic everything stops,is this something to do with the tilt ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: goodolddays on April 19, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
Yep .. thats one of the Tilt switches .. when you activate it you should see the Tilt light on , on the backglass ..
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 21, 2009, 09:59:49 PM
 @@*.. @@*... @@*
I may have found the problem,when I hold the reset control relay in everything works,would that be the coils that need replacing or maybe the whole relay,and how do I find out ?  %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 21, 2009, 10:10:39 PM
Well done for not giving up.  Do you own a Multi meter?  If you do set it to ohms and put the red and black leads onto each lead of the coil if you get a reading of 0 its stuffed if you get a reading over say 20 its also stuffed. A quick dodgy way is to touch a 9v battery to the terminals and see if it pulls in.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 21, 2009, 10:14:29 PM
I tried the multimeter and if I used it right I got a reading of 03.9... !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: millsy on April 21, 2009, 10:18:23 PM
Youre getting there Peach.
Have you cleaned all the rest relay switch blades, I think the pop bumper relay is the same (A-9735),maybe you swap them.
Any other opinions on this advice.
Millsy
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 21, 2009, 10:19:03 PM
Well that seems to be fine try the battery test?  Any luck scanning the schematic for me to look at?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 21, 2009, 11:09:43 PM
Youre getting there Peach.
Have you cleaned all the rest relay switch blades, I think the pop bumper relay is the same (A-9735),maybe you swap them.
Any other opinions on this advice.
Millsy

not a bad idea at all, Millsy.

The schematic would be really handy here as we need to know what holds the coil in.

going off my Spirit of 76 schematics -

You have an AX coil and an AX Reset coil - two coils in this unit.

AX - has a Blue Orange wire that is from the "1st Ball Relay" - that has a second wire on a contact which could be Black & Red (from the "start" relay), which must be closed with a Brown and Red wire from the score motor points "1D". In English - all these contacts must be closed to complete the circuit  and pull in the AX coil.

AX Reset - has a Yellow & black wire that is from the "ball return relay" and it is normally closed with a set of points on the "1st Ball Relay" which completes the circuit on the score motor "2C".

At a guess - you are holding the AX coil "in" - right ?

Clean the contacts on all the relays described above - as a start !




Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 21, 2009, 11:33:26 PM
I have cleaned the contacts,I`ve taken a pic of the relay and where I hold it in..  (the machine was unplugged in the pic)  .. %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 21, 2009, 11:45:58 PM

That's the AX relay, Peach.

From memory, when the AX is pulled in, it is held closed by a tab on the end of the AX Reset. So the contacts on the AX will be CLOSED.

when the AX Reset coil is energized, it RELEASES the contacts that were pulled in by the AX.

MAYBE the problem is MECHANICAL - The AX is not being held in - as that is a physical action, not electrical. The AX should energize ONCE - then HOLD on the contacts in the stack CLOSED - and not OPEN until AX Reset energizes - "freeing" the closed AX stack.

Soooo..

With the relay in your hand - you should be able to force the action of the AX coil - the switches in its stack should stay CLOSED. If they are not - you have a physical problem with the mechanism. Then force the AX Reset, and the AX should spring back and OPEN it's stack

Do all of this with the machine OFF

I don't have a 4 player to reference - I'm only going off what I remember years ago - Maybe someone can confirm the action of the AX - Daniel .. #@#




Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 22, 2009, 12:20:51 AM
Ok,I think I got all that,i can force the action but it doesn`t spring back.. %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 22, 2009, 06:34:31 AM
Ill take a look tonight nino and let you know peach
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 22, 2009, 09:45:21 AM
Ok,I think I got all that,i can force the action but it doesn`t spring back.. %$%

Here's what I think is going on ;

The AX coil pulls in and a physical action holds the contacts in position. It simulates normal playing conditions during a ball.  Peach - You are HOLDING this relay "in" to start the first ball ? Does the first ball eject into the ball trough ? Can you score points ?

These contacts will be in the "closed" position UNTIL the ball drains (Ball return relay will energize) the AX Reset, opening all the contacts.

In other words - it should not "Spring back" until the AX Reset coil energizes. You can simulate with the unit in your hand (game off).


Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 22, 2009, 03:26:05 PM
The ball ejects out and the score is working,but the drop targets are not resetting.. ^&^
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Geoffh on April 22, 2009, 03:31:09 PM
Your doing an outstanding job peach

Keep up the good work you will get there with the help of the experts here

 @@* @@*
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 22, 2009, 03:31:20 PM
Yes Nino tyour correct the coild should energise for a second and lock on until the second coil is enegised releasing the switch bank.   As for your drop targets not resetting check the fuses under the playfield?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 22, 2009, 03:40:37 PM
Your doing an outstanding job peach

Keep up the good work you will get there with the help of the experts here

 @@* @@*

Thanks Geoff...and I will get there eventually,the guys here are great.. ^^^
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 22, 2009, 03:53:04 PM

OK Peach - we are making progress  $#$

So the issue is that the AX coil SHOULD briefly energize and then hold, to be reset what the AX reset is energized (invoked when the ball drains)

So the issue is that the AX coil IS firing, but the mechanism is not holding the switch set closed. This is the problem - need to work out why it will not hold.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 22, 2009, 04:53:52 PM
If its not holding on check that the latch and spring are seated properly (RED ARROW) and moving freely (PUSH WHERE THE BLUE ARROW IS)
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 22, 2009, 08:05:35 PM
If its not holding on check that the latch and spring are seated properly (RED ARROW) and moving freely (PUSH WHERE THE BLUE ARROW IS)

That seems to be working ok..
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Retropin on April 22, 2009, 08:33:15 PM
MMMM- just a thought.. but if AX relay is energising but not holding in yet mechanically it is sound then the problem MUST be elsewhere.

There is an "R" relay - this should pull in and de energise the "game over" relay... if this isnt doing its job then the machine will automatically go into Game over mode and not start.

Fire up the game keeping an eye on the Game Over relay - the contacts should open - if this relay stack doesnt move then you need to look at R relay which triggers it
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 22, 2009, 10:12:28 PM
This is the game over relay,it looks a bit burnt so I am guessing it would be no good. !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 22, 2009, 10:14:49 PM
Yep id say its stuffed just put your multimeter on it just so you can see what a dead coil reads.   Ill have a look to see if i have a spare one around here can you tell me off your schematic what the coil number is?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 22, 2009, 10:58:31 PM
I put the multimeter on both the game over and 1st ball reset and they are 00.4 & 00.3,but I also did the rest of them in that bank and got mostly over 20.0 on them,on the other bank they are all around 15 except for the reset control relay it was 0.36 & 0.78,and the hold relay was 33.3,so are any of these likely to be causing problems too  ??.. !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 22, 2009, 11:01:48 PM
Id start by replacing the Burnt one but the others should have a higher reading than .3
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 22, 2009, 11:23:27 PM

Is the AX relay energizing at all ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 22, 2009, 11:34:48 PM
I think it is Nino,but when the ball drains it is not resetting unless I do it manually.. !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Retropin on April 23, 2009, 12:40:13 AM
I think it is Nino,but when the ball drains it is not resetting unless I do it manually.. !@#

Ok ive been following the thread, but now im getting confused

when the ball drains it is not resetting unless I do it manually

From this - can i gather that you can almost get a game from it? In other words you can score points etc but the game will not reset unless you manually move the AX relay?
 AX relay is triggered by S relay through BX relay, U relay and score motor switch 2C - if this sequence is not correct AX relay will not energise.

 Turn the game off at the wall - manually move the switch stacks so the relays are in contact ( solenoid is pulled in mode) - you can see which relays should be making contact and which shouldnt - put DMM onto OHms mode and test continuity from where the wires are soldered onto the copper leafs, look at these carefully - it can be decieving as the soder joints are staggered - this is where an anologue meter is much better cos you can see the needle sweep. If you have a switch that looks closed but does not have a low reading it is not making contact - similarly if switch looks like its meant to be open but reads low ohms then it needs adjusting - its a finite adjustment thats required
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 23, 2009, 12:47:10 AM
Gav,I can actually get a game to start, but only for one ball,then I have to reset it.. %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 23, 2009, 12:17:04 PM
Gav,I can actually get a game to start, but only for one ball,then I have to reset it.. %$%

OK -So know the AX Reset is not firing. AX is ok.

AX Reset needs the Ball return Relay to be closed. So start a game, and the then drain the ball.

I'll bet nothing happens until you activate the Ball return Relay.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on April 29, 2009, 10:41:39 PM
Hey Peach
                 Sorry ive been a bit snowed under at the minute still havnt had enough time to pull the other boxes of spares out hopefully over the weekend.
            Have you had any luck with the game?

Daniel
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 29, 2009, 11:11:06 PM
Hi Daniel,
When I do get it to start it seems real slow and the drop targets are not resetting.
Peach  %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 29, 2009, 11:44:59 PM

Peach - Manually activate the "ball return relay" after the first ball drains - report back.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 30, 2009, 11:16:32 PM
Ok,been playing around with it ,as long as I have reset the AX relay it will shoot the ball out, drain and will eject the next two no problems,pop bumpers and slingshots are working and the drop targets,altough they don`t reset properly,one target is getting stuck and if I pull it up it`s ok,after the third ball is out and drained the score motor keeps running,all four score reels are rolling over on player one,I haven`t replaced the burnt coil yet so I am hoping that might fix some of the problems  !@#
Nino,the ball return seems to be working.. !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 30, 2009, 11:28:27 PM
Ok,been playing around with it ,as long as I have reset the AX relay it will shoot the ball out, drain and will eject the next two no problems,pop bumpers and slingshots are working and the drop targets,altough they don`t reset properly,one target is getting stuck and if I pull it up it`s ok,after the third ball is out and drained the score motor keeps running,all four score reels are rolling over on player one,I haven`t replaced the burnt coil yet so I am hoping that might fix some of the problems  !@#
Nino,the ball return seems to be working.. !@#

Typical of an EM that has not been played for a while - each time you play it, it seems to sort itself out. Don't be surprised if it works by tomorrow for no reason !

You still have to manually press the AX Reset. Is this at the end of ONLY the first ball ? Thereafter it works ok ?

The "third ball" problem could be as simple as the game is jumpered for a 3 ball game, not a 5 ball game. You can check this jumper located in the head.

If it is set to a 3 ball game - then we need to look at the "Game Over" relay"

Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 30, 2009, 11:32:47 PM
I reset the AX relay first,that stops the score motor running,then it will play,not sure if it is set for 3 or 5 ball but the burnt coil is the game over relay.. %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: goodolddays on April 30, 2009, 11:40:01 PM
Ok,been playing around with it ,as long as I have reset the AX relay it will shoot the ball out, drain and will eject the next two no problems,pop bumpers and slingshots are working and the drop targets,altough they don`t reset properly,one target is getting stuck and if I pull it up it`s ok,after the third ball is out and drained the score motor keeps running,all four score reels are rolling over on player one,I haven`t replaced the burnt coil yet so I am hoping that might fix some of the problems  !@#
Nino,the ball return seems to be working.. !@#

Gday Peach .
99% chance that the reason the score motor keeps running after the last ball drains is because the game over relay is not working , when you activate the AX relay, this causes the machine to start a new game (as it would if the game over relay worked and then you pressed the start button to start a new game) . The drop target not resetting properly probably means that mechanism needs to be pulled apart and cleaned (if you haven't done that already) .. my 2c anyway ... you are doing a fantastic job  *%* Keep up the great work, you are nearly there  ^^^
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on April 30, 2009, 11:50:36 PM
I reset the AX relay first,that stops the score motor running,then it will play,not sure if it is set for 3 or 5 ball but the burnt coil is the game over relay.. %$%

Sounds like it is a 3 Ball game (set in the head), and the GO Relay is not being activated as the coil is not working.

I agree - not far off now. You could activate the GO Relay After the 3rd ball, and then the "Game Over" light will turn on with the "Match" light as well

 ^^^ ^^^
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on April 30, 2009, 11:51:49 PM
Thanks Dave.. %$%
I haven`t taken the drop targets apart yet to clean it,that`s on the" to do list",and I am hoping it is the bad coil,just got to get one to replace it.
Peach  %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 01, 2009, 03:37:05 PM
Do as nino suggested peach about pressing the game over relay after the 3rd bal and see if it goes into game over and match ill pend some time looking for that coil over the weekend wish me luck
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on May 01, 2009, 04:00:31 PM

what coil is being sourced ? What's the part number ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 01, 2009, 04:02:54 PM
All sorted Nino
                        Ive found one for her.  Cant believe my luck it was in the first box i pulled out.  So peaches PM me your address again and ill get it in the mail ASAP
 ^^^
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on May 01, 2009, 04:03:31 PM
All sorted Nino
                        Ive found one for her.  Cant believe my luck it was in the first box i pulled out.  So peaches PM me your address again and ill get it in the mail ASAP
 ^^^

Well done Daniel !
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 01, 2009, 04:18:44 PM
Also Denise did you want me to send the whole relay or just the coil?  You might need the spare contacts one day
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 01, 2009, 08:36:19 PM
Thanks Daniel    %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 01, 2009, 11:30:51 PM
Also peach
 Something to try before you pull apart your drop targets try moving the reset coil away a little bit further so the plunger can pull the targets up a little bit further might fix your problem.  WARNING  Do this with the power off as these coils are 110v ZAP ZAP
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 01, 2009, 11:33:53 PM
Will do.. %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 02, 2009, 12:16:59 PM
If this doesnt fix it let me know an ill take some photosand show you what to watch out for as there not the easiest things to rebuild
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 03, 2009, 09:03:33 PM
Hey Peach Relays all wrapped hopefully drop it in the mail tomorrow after work.   
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 04, 2009, 04:33:12 PM
Hey Peach Relays all wrapped hopefully drop it in the mail tomorrow after work.  

Thanks Daniel  %$%   %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 04, 2009, 05:41:39 PM
Sorry mate missed the post office today so it will definately be in the mail tommorow
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 05, 2009, 04:46:51 PM
EXPRESS POST  on its way to you so you should have it tommorow $#$
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 05, 2009, 05:12:27 PM
Thanks Daniel... @@*
Your help is very much appreciated.. ^^^
Peach   %$% 
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 06, 2009, 02:39:37 PM
The coil came today,thanks Daniel,so I will try it a bit later today and let you know how I go... %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 06, 2009, 03:21:31 PM
My fingers are crossed for you.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 06, 2009, 09:28:51 PM
Any luck with the new coil?        If that doesnt solve your problem with the playfield up there is a switch that the ball closes when its ejected. Start up a game make a score with your hand then push this switch closed hopefully it changes to second ball and that switch is your problem. (Needs adjusting)
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 06, 2009, 09:29:39 PM
I have changed the burnt coil,but it`s making a humming noise,and I still have to reset the AX relay to get the game to start   !@#
Maybe Daniel could use it for target practice  %.%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 06, 2009, 09:32:25 PM
The coil is humming?   If it is get a piece of fine sand paper and fold it in half and rub it between the coil and the plate thats pulled to the coil that should stop the hum.       So with credits on the credit wheelyou push the start button and nothing happens? Is that right?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 06, 2009, 09:41:38 PM
When I push the start button the scores reels reset most of the time but the score motor keeps running until I push the AX relay,then I can get a game to start but it is not scoring properly,all four reels are turning. ^&^
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on May 06, 2009, 11:25:22 PM

Peach - check the START relay - This should have a set of contacts that fire the AX coil
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 07, 2009, 09:41:04 AM
Nino,what do I check on the start relay ?  %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on May 07, 2009, 09:58:46 AM
Nino,what do I check on the start relay ?  %$%

burnt coil or a loose wire.

Then

Start a game, and while the score reels are still rotating (no ball gets served, right?), activate the "start relay".

See what happens.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 07, 2009, 12:40:42 PM
Ok,I turn the game on and the score motor and stepper unit are running,I activate the start relay and score reels all go stupid,the stepper unit stops but the score motor still runs until I activate the AX relay,then the ball gets served...
 ^&^
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on May 07, 2009, 12:49:49 PM
Ok,I turn the game on and the score motor and stepper unit are running,I activate the start relay and score reels all go stupid,the stepper unit stops but the score motor still runs until I activate the AX relay,then the ball gets served...
 ^&^

Schematic is at home, Peach - So I will have to refer to that when I get home
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on May 07, 2009, 11:50:33 PM


Recap -

The game works normally when the AX Relay is activated by hand.

Keep in mind, I'm working off a Spirit of 76 schematic, so if someone has a Fast Draw - Now is the time to help out !

Here is what will activate the AX COIL;

Condition 1 - On the score motor - The points "1D" must be closed. This is a set of points with a RED-WHITE wire and a BROWN-RED Wire. The leaf contacts themselves are mounted high up on the score motor contacts

Condition 2 - Start Relay - A set of contacts BROWN-RED Wire (from the above score motor) and a BLACK-RED Wire must be closed

Condition 3 - First Ball Relay - A set of contacts BLACK-RED Wire (from above Start Relay) and a BLACK ORANGE wire must be closed

The BLACK ORANGE from above is soldered to one side of the coil.
A Bacl Wire is soldered to the other side of the coil


Condition 1 + Condition 2 + Condition 3 = Complete the circuit = AX coil will activate

Hope this helps, Peach !

Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 08, 2009, 01:33:42 AM
Thanks Nino.... %$%
Will have a look in the morning   %$%
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: goodolddays on May 14, 2009, 04:29:18 PM
Thanks Nino.... %$%
Will have a look in the morning   %$%

Gday Peach .. What's the latest with this ? Just realised we haven't heard from you for almost a week  *.*
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 23, 2009, 01:47:10 PM
Had a couple of weeks away from it now it`s time to try again.
Nino,I looked at the contacts and I think they are all ok.
There is a coil with a couple of broken contacts in the headbox,could that be causing any of the other problems ?
I am in the process of soldering in some new ones.
Other than that this is what`s happening now,I didn`t have to reset AX this time,first ball serves everything works ok until it drains,drop targets reset,then second ball lights up but as soon as a score is hit jumps to fifth ball and end game match lights up,player one and player four stay lit up,and all four score reels turn..
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Strangeways on May 23, 2009, 01:49:55 PM
Had a couple of weeks away from it now it`s time to try again.
Nino,I looked at the contacts and I think they are all ok.
There is a coil with a couple of broken contacts in the headbox,could that be causing any of the other problems ?
I am in the process of soldering in some new ones.
Other than that this is what`s happening now,I didn`t have to reset AX this time,first ball serves everything works ok until it drains,drop targets reset,then second ball lights up but as soon as a score is hit jumps to fifth ball and end game match lights up,player one and player four stay lit up,and all four score reels turn..

Broken contacts - interesting - What relay is it Peach ?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 23, 2009, 01:56:52 PM
It has M on it,I think it is the 100 point relay.. !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 23, 2009, 05:59:19 PM
I fixed the coil with the broken contacts and now the score reels are working properly I think,but the drop targets, kick outs and stand up targets are not scoring,almost thought the chimes were going to work,heard one chime and that was it. It seems that sometimes I have to reset the AX and other times I don`t. Only first ball is lit up now,does not advance any further,but keeps serving the ball. The coil that had the dodgy contacts in the head box is also making a buzzing noise almost like shooting sparks sort of noise,but no sparks...
 !@#
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 23, 2009, 06:13:33 PM
Do the kickouts kick the ball or do they just not score?
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: Peach on May 23, 2009, 06:18:59 PM
Yes they kick the ball out just no score.
Title: Re: Got first project...Help Needed...
Post by: ddstoys on May 23, 2009, 06:51:25 PM
Id try removing and cleaning up your Wire Connectors sounds as if the power is not getting from the switch to the score relay try activating the score relay by hand and see if the reel works?