The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: robm on April 05, 2009, 07:34:11 PM
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As mentioned in another thread, i just picked this earthshaker up. The bloke was playing it and it let a puff of smoke out and stopped. The pics are of the power supply board that obviously has had some trouble. When we turned the machine on (with the power supply board disconnected) it tripped the safety switch in the house.
When i got it home, disconnected everything after the transformer and turned the machine on, there was quiet sizzling noise (1 second) and a small bit of smoke coming from the transformer as well as a burning smell. This time it did not trip the safety switch in my shed.
I'm assuming the transformer is stuffed. The part number is 5610-12136-00. The question is, do i run and get (dunno from where) a new transformer or get it rebuilt or something else???
Also is it a reasonable assumption that the transformer is the problem? - i looked in the box where the lead comes in and everything looks very clean and no sign of any shorts or something sinister.
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Can you post a pic of the transformer?
I know sometimes the transformers have to be jumpered to suit local voltage. From the Williams stickers inside the cab - was it an export?
Either way, smoke and hissing from it is not good...but easy to replace. Check with MarkC - he may even have a spare floating around.
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OK, it was working - do we know how long it had been working before it died? Weeks, days, hours?
I assume that is a voltage regulator that has been cooked there? I wouldn't be too hasty in connecting up a replacement PSU or transformer until the reason the problem occurred in the first place is addressed. You might just end up cooking the replacement as well. A good look through the schematics would be in order to find out what lives at the other end of that particular supply rail - for example, I wouldn't be surprised if the shaker motor has some sort of problem - but it could be anything really. Check that the fuses are correct, too - if they aren't this might give you some clues.
I guess a faulty transformer could cause the problem on the power supply board, but I am suspicious that the problem lies on the other side of the PSU? That is, whatever caused the voltage regulator to cook may have caused damage to the transformer at the same time.
Someone with more experience will be able to give you more insight.
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Thanks for the replys - will go out and check fuse ratings now
The machine i understand was working fine for a number of weeks for the previous owner.
The machine looks to be an aussie delivered one as the sticker says 220V.
Below is a pic of the transformer...
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Just checked the F2 and F3 fuses on the power supply board which according to the manual should be 1/8 A 250V - the ones in there have 10A stamped on the end and no marking if they are 12 or 240V - unsure if this will make any difference?
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Just checked the F2 and F3 fuses on the power supply board which according to the manual should be 1/8 A 250V - the ones in there have 10A stamped on the end and no marking if they are 12 or 240V - unsure if this will make any difference?
Sounds like a major problem to me - if they are meant to be 1/8A and they are 10A then the problem was allowed to cook the board rather than blow the fuse. I forget whether you can substitute 12V with a higher rating for 240V with a lower rating, but even if this was the case 10A is still way too high.
I would still be trying to determine if there is a problem along the line.
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Will continue checking down the line - i guess the thing is the transformer made some smoke and burnt a bit when we had nothing connected - just power into the transformer. But as suggested the problem may have occurred further along the line - half stuffed the transformer and now it is continuing to 'cook' even with nothing connected?
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Will continue checking down the line - i guess the thing is the transformer made some smoke and burnt a bit when we had nothing connected - just power into the transformer. But as suggested the problem may have occurred further along the line - half stuffed the transformer and now it is continuing to 'cook' even with nothing connected?
That's exactly what I would be wary of.
I have done a bit more reading on fuses and I am still not certain exactly of what the voltage ratings mean, but a 10A fuse in place of 1/8A is a disaster waiting to happen whether it was rated 12V or 240V. Hence the burnt board.
I will try to look at the schematics if they are online so I can better understand what might have happened.
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Have checked all the fuses and there are some that are amiss. There are quite a few that are not marked 250v so i assume these are 12v as most of them are much higher amperage than specified.
On the power supply board
F1 is 10A 12v should be 3/8 A 250v
F2 and F3 are 10a 12v should be 1/8 250v
On Aux Power driver board
F4 is 5A 250 should be 2 1/2A 250
F5 is 15A 12v should be 2a 250
F6 is 30A 12v should be 2a 250
F7 is 15a 12v should be 4a 250
On Interconnect board
F2 is 5A 12v should be 5a 250
Then there is another fuse that is the "+18vdc Lamp Ckt/ Lwr Rt Backbox Fuse Holder" which should be 8A 32V - it is an 8A but 250v and is a strange ceramic looking centre bit (instead of glass) and when tested on the multimeter - there is no continuity but a resistance of around 320 k ohm. (see pic)
So i don't know if this is a potential culprit, but i will certainly grab the correct other fuses for future testing.
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Rob,
The first thing I always do with any new machine is (a) remove all fuses and check with DMM and ensure it is correct type before it goes back in. Next is to visually inspect everywhere - ie behind displays, under playfield, on top of bumper coils etc... for any loose screws which may have come loose and shorted out G.I strings or your switch matrix.
Given that you've disconnected the 'out' / playfield side of transformer and it smoked and popped, me I would get this checked first. I've never seen a transformer with that much corrosion on it. ?? Is there any marks on the bottom of the cabinet - ie if someone has spilt something on it perhaps?
Once you know the transformers AOK, then as Ajlaird rightly suggested you will want to check everything upstream. In a situation with a non working project you don't want to ruin good boards by rushing and missing something obvious causing you more headaches. Given the cost of the machine, you can expect to have to purchase some things but if you take it slowly and methodical with a copy of the schematics on hand you'll have it up and running in no time! #*#
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You need 3AG fuse of the correct amp rating, they are all usally rated at 240v. Sell them at Jaycar etc. Also need to know which are fast blow which are slo-blow etc
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You need 3AG fuse of the correct amp rating, they are all usally rated at 240v. Sell them at Jaycar etc. Also need to know which are fast blow which are slo-blow etc
The voltage of the fuse doesn't matter unless in a high voltage situation where more insulation around the fuse wire is needed, as Dean says the Amp rating needs to be correct and the standard 3AG is fine. The ceramic fuse is most likely an old slow blow and certainly shouldn't be reading more than an Ohm or two.
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Slowly working through potential problems and did find one loose screw that may have caused the fry up but also a burnt out 7810 ic - will replace this when i can get one. One concern i have is there is 240v going into the transformer and it (the tranny) is clearly marker 115v. Yet the sicker on the side of the cab says it is a 220v machine. Below are some pics of the transformer and it doesn't look to me if it has been modified in any way to suit our 240v power - but i also don't know what i'm looking for.
I am wondering if the seller told me a story that it was working for him.... can any of you guys tell if is the right tranny for 240v?
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Rob,
My Police Force (sys 11b) which I believe was an import too, states 220v on the stickers and 50 hertz.
Attached is photo of my transformer
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From the look of that transformer, I assume it was the low voltage sound that burnt a bit? Looks like a short caused that.
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Rob,
You can see the difference in colour of my transformer. Is there much other corrosion on the metal parts on the machine.
So I take it you have checked the schematics for the machine, the power cord in to the h/v box, fuse in it, wiring has not come loose or touching metal, EMI filter etc.. all OK?
Have you PM'd MarkC to see if he is wrecking any Sys11b games? If he doesn't have a transformer to suit somewhere I'd be surprised!
I understand as I mentioned earlier, some transfomers need to be jumpered for correct voltage / hertz for different countries.
I'm trying to find this to ensure yours is / was correct....
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Marty,
Yep, can see the difference in colour - but the stickers and wiring are all the same, so i'm happy its the right one and the problem was caused further along the circuit somewhere. Have checked the wiring, fuses and EMI filter which all look perfect. The transformer is the only thing with corrosion in the machine.
Have checked with Markc and Tony from the Pinball shed, neither have any wrecked sys 11B machines, but Tony gave me the number of a guy who is looking into it for me. Otherwise it might be a waiting game until one comes up.
Rob
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Alrighty sounds like a plan.
Have you tested the MPU board as yet? Might be a good idea. This can be done on your work bench with either a computer power supply or JAMMA power supply. I did this on my Police Force and was very handy to make sure it boots etc..
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You could try taking it to an armature winder / electrical engineering shop that specilise in re-winding transformers, motors etc. They would at least be able to test it for you and confirm that it is stuffed and probably price to have it repaired or stear you in the right direction for its repair or replacement.
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Page 87-88 of the manual has the configuration of the transformer;
Pin 1 - Black wire
Pin 3 - Jumpered to Pin 9
Pin 7 - White
This is for 230 V input.
You need to check this before plugging it in again.
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How do i number the pins?
If they are
3 4 9
2 5 8
1 6 7
as holding in the picture then its all sweet?
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Mine
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I think yours is jumpered right, Rob.
Marty's is the same.
Can you test the transformer with no load - ie. No connections from the transformer to the machine ? The schematics will have the voltages you should be seeing.
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I'm a bit nervous doing that - not because its 240v but when i got the machine i did that (ie: disconnected from everything downstream of the transformer) and it gave a hiss and let out some smoke.
I did no further testing after that as i assumed its stuffed - but maybe it just fried a cockroach in there?....
It didn't trip my RCD
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I think yours is jumpered right, Rob.
Marty's is the same.
Can you test the transformer with no load - ie. No connections from the transformer to the machine ? The schematics will have the voltages you should be seeing.
My theory (well 2) are:
Power surge / lightening strike has killed transformer and powerboard with surge. The way it has burnt on your power board looks very much like a surge.
Or something has been spilt on transformer causing an internal short.
Hopefully another transformer will turn up.
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If it smoked with no load theres a good chance its stuffed but just for good measure try it again and see what happens if theres no load its not going to do anymore damage. Just open a window first !*!
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rob - Sounds like the transformer has an internal short.
At this point, I would be looking for a replacement - either from a parted out machine, or an equivalent sourced from somewhere. I think you can have them rewound ?
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Any luck with a transformer as yet?
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Tony from The pinball shed got me onto a guy John, who got back to me yesterday with a replacement transformer!!!
Should be posted in the next day or so - may even have it by the weekend.
Then the fun starts.
I will have a working transformer and power supply board (got rottendog replacement).
Will start just plugging those two in and triple check fuses are correctly rated (unlike previous owner).
Then i will have some repairs to do on the display board as it looks pretty nasty - almost looks like someone has had a go with the welder in some spots instead of a soldering iron!!
Will be asking for assistance when i get to that stage
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Awesome stuff.
In the mean time you can also check the CPU board. This can be booted on your work bench with a JAMMA power supply or old computer power supply.
If you have any dead chips let me know I may have a couple spares..
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OK, transformer and new rottendog power supply board are in and not smoking when powered up!! :D :D :D
My next challenge is to address the issues on the display board and interconnect board.
Firstly, the u20,15 and 10 chips are either cracked or fried U15 and 20 are 7180 and u10 is a 4049 - unsure on availability of these - hopefully Jaycar or someone in Townsville stocks them so i can grab them tommorrow.
As you can see, under the display board (see 2nd pic) someone has been pretty nasty with a soldering iron - hopefully the jumper on top (1st pic) will work with the new ic's.
2nd issue is the interconnect board - some dweeb has soldered wires (3rd pic) where the plugs went in, so i will have to grab some connectors.
On the 4th pic you can see a heap of jumper leads, i guess i will make sure these are all going to the right spot. Should i replace the pins on the board where they have obviously got hot?
I'll get to cleaning things up and desoldering ic's that need replacing tonight. Let me know if you have any suggestions...
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*!@
That is some 'nasty' soldering.
I would suggest firstly to get a hold of the schematics and try to double check this yourself. Given the 'quality' of some of the soldering I personally would be double checking EVERY repair.
Jumpering is fine as long as it goes to the right pin. Going by the pics I'm not sure all of that is fuse damage.
Either way those pins need to be replaced. In theory I wouldn't have thought a display board should get that 'hot'. However running on the theory of the way the powerboard blew out, I am still betting on a surge.
I'll see what you may be able to use from my Police Force boards.
I would suggest - if you cannot repair (cost effectively) to consider a LED replacement. But certainly go for repair first.
Is your CPU board booting ok?
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Oh,
In relation to the components you want. From memory a couple can be replaced via Jaycar but the others should be available from the wonderful sponsors here...
If not I can recommend Ed @ http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/
Excellent service, fast postage.
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Thanks Marty,
Have got to grab a few fuses tommorrow, so will check if the CPU boots then.
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Some nasty repair work there.
I would be trimming those tracks that have lifted - they will only curl up and you will have all sorts of problems. Use an exacto knife or similar
Replace those pin connectors
Remove the chips you believe are fried, clean up the solder mess and solder in sockets. Install the chips again - UDN7180 are VERY hard to find, 4049 should not be.
Simply clean up the flux off the repairs - maybe remove the solder and resolder
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What is the part number on your display?
My PF one is D-11232-2 (16-8850-226).
I've replaced U7, U8, U9, U10, U11 & U12.
From memory there was only one bad UDN7180 otherwise in good shape. No jumpering on mine, just socket work.
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Display board is D-12232-1 16-8850-234
Will certainly solder sockets in anywhere i replace.
Thanks for the tip on cleaning up tracks
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EEEWWWWWWW talk about a hacked board some dodgy work there. Imsure you will get it sorted out
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Hmm, I suspected they may be different.
I would hate to scrape a 98% working display for a couple of UDN7180's!
See how you go. At least you'll know your voltages to the display will be good with a new rottendog pcb!
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Just in case you're working straight from the manual...
WARNING: Schematic Mis-Prints 4049 vs 4050.
On some system11 schematics (such as Earthshaker) chip U8, U9, and U10 the schematics says these are 4050 chips on the display controller board. But this is *wrong*! They are actually 4049 chips (hex inverter buffer). If 4050 (non-inverting hex buffer) chips are put in by mistake it can cause damage and the displays will not work!
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Just got offered 4 transformers , should have them early next week
mark
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Mark,
Wish it were a week earlier - you could have thrown them in with the rest of the order!!
No worries - will know who to call if this one throws the towel in.
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Ok, things are not so good in my shed at the moment ^.^
Fixed the pins on the interconnect board, ran some new traces, was all looking good. Checked all fuses in machine, checked all coil resistances everything was good. Connected everything back up except the display board and turned the machine on..... Backboard lights came on, speaker made a few noises and i was pretty happy. Then after about 5 seconds the shaker motor started and there was a spectacular flame and sparking from the shaker motor, a few sparks from the boards and i quickly pulled the plug.
On brief inspection, there are a few chips gone on the CPU board - one gone on the audio board, maybe a relay on the CPU but the new transformer and power supply board look OK at the moment (the transformer still works - i disconnected everything and it fired up OK).
After that, i left the plug out and took the boat out wakeboarding for the arvo so i didn't have to think about it.
So i guess from now i have to pull all the boards off and assess the damage - then make a call to cut my losses (don't really know what to do with it though?) or persevere and continue to repair.
My initial thought is there is a serious issue with the shaker motor (which i think someone suggested earlier - i never even pulled it apart: lesson learned) and this has gone back through the rest of the system. The reason for this thought is why did the shaker motor start of its own accord about 5 secs after powering up - i assume this is NOT part of the self diagnostics? I haven't looked to see which if any fuses have blown, although the machine did not stop - i had to pull the plug.
Someone also suggested the possibility the line filter might be dodgy and allowed a spike through?
I may have a bit of a look tommorrow arv and put the project on the backburner for a few weeks....i guess that will give me the chance to wait a while and fal over some of the elusive UDN 7180 ic's.....
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A minor setback - I hope.
Take a break and then re assess. Hopefully, the damage will be simple parts like TIP102 etc..
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The reason for this thought is why did the shaker motor start of its own accord about 5 secs after powering up - i assume this is NOT part of the self diagnostics?
It could well be - I know that on Dirty Harry the self diagnostics runs the motor for the gun on start-up.
I would try turning the pin on with the motor disconnected next time - but definitely take a look at that shaker motor as a possible problem area.