The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: Rossco on June 11, 2014, 11:30:59 PM
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Hi all - I have just bought an old pinball machine - Cosmic Princess. It is complete but it won't start a new game. I insert coins and the credit comes up and I start the game but the ball doesn't pop out. Flippers work and everything, and I can hand-start the game but when the ball goes to the bottom, the plastic targets in a row buzz and some stay up but it keeps going through the reset cycle. Any suggestions welcomed. Thanks in advance. Rossco
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Hi all - I have just bought an old pinball machine - Cosmic Princess. It is complete but it won't start a new game. I insert coins and the credit comes up and I start the game but the ball doesn't pop out. Flippers work and everything, and I can hand-start the game but when the ball goes to the bottom, the plastic targets in a row buzz and some stay up but it keeps going through the reset cycle. Any suggestions welcomed. Thanks in advance. Rossco
Have a good read through this, should help you
http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm
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Thanks Boots..
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Hi all - I have just bought an old pinball machine - Cosmic Princess. It is complete but it won't start a new game. I insert coins and the credit comes up and I start the game but the ball doesn't pop out. Flippers work and everything, and I can hand-start the game but when the ball goes to the bottom, the plastic targets in a row buzz and some stay up but it keeps going through the reset cycle. Any suggestions welcomed. Thanks in advance. Rossco
Seems like a common issue with the Cosmic Princess - ours does something similar.
You need to do a solenoid test and see if the respective coil is activating, if it is, you need to dig deeper.
Do you by any chance have a wiring schematic? If so, i'd be interested in a photocopy.
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Could also be a connector problem. You could try re-seating all the connectors to the MPU board (top left hand corner of the headbox).
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Thanks for the suggestion. Do I test the solenoids using the "self-test"? I have been been looking through the manual but not a lot of info there. Any suggestions for where to get replacement rubber items. I have seen then on eBayfairly reasonably priced.
I will have a look for the wiring schematic. I did see some stuff inside the cabinet so perhaps it is there.
Hi all - I have just bought an old pinball machine - Cosmic Princess. It is complete but it won't start a new game. I insert coins and the credit comes up and I start the game but the ball doesn't pop out. Flippers work and everything, and I can hand-start the game but when the ball goes to the bottom, the plastic targets in a row buzz and some stay up but it keeps going through the reset cycle. Any suggestions welcomed. Thanks in advance. Rossco
Seems like a common issue with the Cosmic Princess - ours does something similar.
You need to do a solenoid test and see if the respective coil is activating, if it is, you need to dig deeper.
Do you by any chance have a wiring schematic? If so, i'd be interested in a photocopy.
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Thanks - will try that...
Could also be a connector problem. You could try re-seating all the connectors to the MPU board (top left hand corner of the headbox).
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You need to read the manual to see how many times you need to press the white button inside the coin door to get to the solenoid test.
Each solenoid will fire and the number of the transistor will be displayed on the backbox credits area.
Have you pulled off the apron to take a look at the solenoid?
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Checked the nanual for the test presses and will try that a bit later. So once I know the transistor number what will that indicate? Do I need a new one or do something else.
Also wondering why the drop targets just keep resetting and the ball doesn't go into play. Oddly enough i push all the drop targets and they go down but when they reset only 2 stay up...
Is the apron the cover of the solenoid?
Tks for the help with this - I have a bit of electrical/mechanical knowledge but am very new to pinball machine maintenance. Really keen to learn the workings of the new machine though... :-)
You need to read the manual to see how many times you need to press the white button inside the coin door to get to the solenoid test.
Each solenoid will fire and the number of the transistor will be displayed on the backbox credits area.
Have you pulled off the apron to take a look at the solenoid?
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Checked the nanual for the test presses and will try that a bit later. So once I know the transistor number what will that indicate? Do I need a new one or do something else.
Also wondering why the drop targets just keep resetting and the ball doesn't go into play. Oddly enough i push all the drop targets and they go down but when they reset only 2 stay up...
Is the apron the cover of the solenoid?
Tks for the help with this - I have a bit of electrical/mechanical knowledge but am very new to pinball machine maintenance. Really keen to learn the workings of the new machine though... :-)
The manual tells you what transistor fires each solenoid.\
I am not familiar with Cosmic Princess but it may be a part of the game that you start off with certain targets up and others down, once you hit the ones that are up then it gives you others to hit.
The apron is the steel cover at the bottom of the playfield, the ball launch solenoid and mech is under there.
Take the apron off, check the resistance of the solenoid with your multimeter, if it is under 3 ohms resistance its probably cooked, also check the driver transistor on the solenoid driver board on diode mode with your multimeter, the link I posted will tell you how to do that, compare it against others that you know are working ok.
A visual inspection of the transistor may reveal damage too.
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. Oddly enough i push all the drop targets and they go down but when they reset only 2 stay up...
That is normal for Cosmic Princess.
It starts a game/new ball with just two targets up. Then when these are knocked down they reset and three stay up, then four and so on..
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If the game continually resets the target and is stuck on ball 1, then the ball trough switch might be shorted or mis adjusted. Remove the ball and see if the problem persists.
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If the game continually resets the target and is stuck on ball 1, then the ball trough switch might be shorted or mis adjusted. Remove the ball and see if the problem persists.
I just went in and tried this on my own CP and can confirm that this IS how the game will behave if the ball is not being kicked into the shooter lane ( i held the coil plunger so the ball wouldn't kick out, so the ball was just sitting there on the switch). Also just checked the solenoid test, #16 in the solenoid test is the outhole coil and Q16 on the solenoid driver board drives that coil. You could try, with a test lead jumpering its collector (metal tab) to the aluminium ground in the backbox and see if the ball kicks out, if it does it'll rule out the coil itsself and connections between the board and coil as being the problem.
Slightly off topic but i wanted to add, its a great old game when working properly, i also find it pretty amazing that for a low production game there seem to be a few popping up lately.. i notice there are a few members here that have this title.. i have TWO of them @ the moment :D a keeper and the other is being restored and sold.
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sorry - I checked inside the box a short while ago but didn't see a wiring schematic. There were some info sheets stuck inside but not that item...
Do you by any chance have a wiring schematic? If so, i'd be interested in a photocopy.
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OK - I have removed the apron and checked the switch under the ball and it seems to be working correctly... BUT the ball is not ejecting automatically. If I move the ball into the pin launcher then everything is fine and the system resets and the game goes normally. I tried the self test and the solenoids cycle through but the ball ejector does not work during the cycle. That could be the problem. The switch seems to be new and looks like it's been replaced recently..
Should I test the solenoid with an amp meter?
Also, one of the five drop targets does not drop when going through the test cycle - no sure if that is an issue as they work correctly during play?
The manual tells you what transistor fires each solenoid.
I am not familiar with Cosmic Princess but it may be a part of the game that you start off with certain targets up and others down, once you hit the ones that are up then it gives you others to hit.
The apron is the steel cover at the bottom of the playfield, the ball launch solenoid and mech is under there.
Take the apron off, check the resistance of the solenoid with your multimeter, if it is under 3 ohms resistance its probably cooked, also check the driver transistor on the solenoid driver board on diode mode with your multimeter, the link I posted will tell you how to do that, compare it against others that you know are working ok.
A visual inspection of the transistor may reveal damage too.
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This is great info - tks very much...
Will go and test it out again. Do I press the test button 16 times to get to #16? Will also try the the jumper suggestion. The wires seem a little bit worse for wear so I may resolder them to make sure that all is OK once I have finished testing.
Yes, this is a great machine and plays very well. My one is in very good condition - backboard and table have very little wear. Looks like it has been regularly maintained. I need a rubber set ... any suggestion for a reliable place to get these? Also, what price do they fetch these days?
If the game continually resets the target and is stuck on ball 1, then the ball trough switch might be shorted or mis adjusted. Remove the ball and see if the problem persists.
I just went in and tried this on my own CP and can confirm that this IS how the game will behave if the ball is not being kicked into the shooter lane ( i held the coil plunger so the ball wouldn't kick out, so the ball was just sitting there on the switch). Also just checked the solenoid test, #16 in the solenoid test is the outhole coil and Q16 on the solenoid driver board drives that coil. You could try, with a test lead jumpering its collector (metal tab) to the aluminium ground in the backbox and see if the ball kicks out, if it does it'll rule out the coil itsself and connections between the board and coil as being the problem.
Slightly off topic but i wanted to add, its a great old game when working properly, i also find it pretty amazing that for a low production game there seem to be a few popping up lately.. i notice there are a few members here that have this title.. i have TWO of them @ the moment :D a keeper and the other is being restored and sold.
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Do I press the test button 16 times to get to #16?
No, once you are in solenoid test mode it will cycle thru all the solenoids over and over
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Slightly off topic but i wanted to add, its a great old game when working properly, i also find it pretty amazing that for a low production game there seem to be a few popping up lately.. i notice there are a few members here that have this title.. i have TWO of them @ the moment :D a keeper and the other is being restored and sold.
you know, i was actually thinking the same thing, its had a bit of attention lately despite small production numbers. Nice and colourful playfield, fun game.
There is a gumtree add in SA at the moment, someone is looking to buy!
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More testing done ...
The solenoid test goes through most of the solenoids in the test cycle (Click 3) - but doesn't do the flippers and the ball eject (start of play). Strangely, when the machine has been newly switched on after standing, it works fine, but then seems to keep on resetting the drop targets and doesn't eject the ball on about the second game. I have tested the switch for the "ball start eject" solenoid and that was newly replaced and seems to be working fine.
Lastly - there are no sound effects (the no 8 dip switch is set to on). It was making weird sounds after transporting it to my house and I shook it a bit which caused the weirs sounds to go away - now seems to taken everything with it. I have fiddled with the speaker volume in the main box and that seems to be OK. Are there perhaps some know issues with CP sound?
Any suggestions as to what to check now GREATLY appreciated - I'm stuck (just like the continuous drop target reset and no ball start eject) ................. TIA
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More testing done ...
The solenoid test goes through most of the solenoids in the test cycle (Click 3) - but doesn't do the flippers and the ball eject (start of play). Strangely, when the machine has been newly switched on after standing, it works fine, but then seems to keep on resetting the drop targets and doesn't eject the ball on about the second game. I have tested the switch for the "ball start eject" solenoid and that was newly replaced and seems to be working fine.
Lastly - there are no sound effects (the no 8 dip switch is set to on). It was making weird sounds after transporting it to my house and I shook it a bit which caused the weirs sounds to go away - now seems to taken everything with it. I have fiddled with the speaker volume in the main box and that seems to be OK. Are there perhaps some know issues with CP sound?
Any suggestions as to what to check now GREATLY appreciated - I'm stuck (just like the continuous drop target reset and no ball start eject) ................. TIA
The flippers are not part of the solenoid test. The ball kick is part of the test and I find it strange that it does not work during the test, but does work for the first game. It almost suggests that there is a dry joint on the Solenoid Driver board, or a connecter problem to the solenoid Driver board. Can you remove the SD board and reflow the solder joints on the connectors ?
The sound problem - I have not worked on this game for a long time - does it have the ribbon connector from the sound board to the MPU board ? Reseat the connectors to the sound board as a start.
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WOW - some progress - tks for the input.
Have got the sound working after removing and cleaning the connectors. Tick that one off.
I tried the same with the driver control board and I managed to run three games and a test circuit of the solenoids - all worked great THEN, back to the repeated resetting of the drop-targets, and no ball eject. Grrrr
I may do another clean and reset of the connectors. The previous owner told me that the machine did that when he got it ten years ago. Will also try and resolder the connector pins. I have got a decent soldering iron to do the work so will try and get that done tomorrow.
Thanks again for the input - greatly appreciated.
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WOW - some progress - tks for the input.
Have got the sound working after removing and cleaning the connectors. Tick that one off.
I tried the same with the driver control board and I managed to run three games and a test circuit of the solenoids - all worked great THEN, back to the repeated resetting of the drop-targets, and no ball eject. Grrrr
I may do another clean and reset of the connectors. The previous owner told me that the machine did that when he got it ten years ago. Will also try and resolder the connector pins. I have got a decent soldering iron to do the work so will try and get that done tomorrow.
Thanks again for the input - greatly appreciated.
When you have the SDB out re-solder ALL the connector pins on the board not just the ones for the connector giving you trouble, this wil eliminate any other possible intermittent issues
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Ok thanks - will do the resoldering job today.
Didn't know that it is possible for such a thing to happen with a machine. Does it corrode or something over time? I'm sure that when it left the factory it should have worked OK. Just curious as to how that happened.
I really appreciate the kind and generous assistance of everyone here. Would have been really lost without it. Great Aussie pinball community!!
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When you say you are cleaning the connector pins, how are you doing it? It isn't a good idea to sand them, it will probably be a temporary fix and lead to other problems down the track.
It sounds like you have some connector and header pin issues. The best way to fix it in the end would be to replace the connectors and header pins totally. As you have already seen, just re-seating the connectors will only be a short term fix.
Something else, just because something has been replaced, e.g. the ball eject switch I think it was, don't assume that it is all good. The switch arm may need adjusting, or the switch itself may have been wired incorrectly - I have seen this plenty of times.
If you are confident of being able to pull things apart and put them back together, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to pull the drop target banks apart and give them a good clean. Chances are there may be a heap of crud on the targets themselves which is inhibiting their movement up and down. best thing is to take plenty of pics of the part your are working on/assembly as you go so you have some sort of reference as to how it goes back together.
Best of luck with it.
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I removed ribbon cable and rubbed the side of the pins lightly with a small screwdriver then slid the ribbon up and down a few times to try and reseat them properly.
Do I need to get some new header pins from somewhere? I was wondering how I keep the loose pins in place long enough to solder them. Would this be by having the ribbon plugged in on the other side perhaps?
I have fiddled with the leaves and cleaned contacts on the kicker switch and they seem to be making contact OK.
As far as the drop target goes - during the test cycle, drop target no 4 does not drop so maybe there is something wrong with that one, and a need to disassemble it.
Have camera ready to photograph everything. Bit nervous about fiddling actually as I can't find a full manual that shows where everything fits, including wiring, so kind of flying blind at this stage.
When you say you are cleaning the connector pins, how are you doing it? It isn't a good idea to sand them, it will probably be a temporary fix and lead to other problems down the track.
It sounds like you have some connector and header pin issues. The best way to fix it in the end would be to replace the connectors and header pins totally. As you have already seen, just re-seating the connectors will only be a short term fix.
Something else, just because something has been replaced, e.g. the ball eject switch I think it was, don't assume that it is all good. The switch arm may need adjusting, or the switch itself may have been wired incorrectly - I have seen this plenty of times.
If you are confident of being able to pull things apart and put them back together, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to pull the drop target banks apart and give them a good clean. Chances are there may be a heap of crud on the targets themselves which is inhibiting their movement up and down. best thing is to take plenty of pics of the part your are working on/assembly as you go so you have some sort of reference as to how it goes back together.
Best of luck with it.
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Testing Update,
Reseated the ribbons again and this time ... I ran 3 games perfectly and ran through 6 x test cycles - perfectly. Ball kicked out as it should and all solenoids worked well - even ran through the sounds as part of the test.
So, I may do a proper clean of the connectors and see how that runs before resoldering at this stage (will work towards doing that), and will see if I can source some new ribbon cables. They look like standard computer items so perhaps IDE cables may work? I have a few old ones lying around from computer upgrades that I have done.
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Some good pinball parts shops that between them should have everything you need........
RTBB - Vic based and a member here on AP. www.rtbb.com.au
Pinball Life - US based and their shipping is starting to get expensive. www.pinballlife.com
Marco Specialties - their shipping has actually come down in price and is much more reasonable than it used to be. http://www.marcospecialties.com/
Pinball Resource - excellent shop but ordering takes a bit to get your head around. http://www.pbresource.com/
If you have loose header pins they can be re-soldered but preferred option if possible would be just to replace the header pins and connectors and fix the problem for good. Putting the connector on and then pushing the pins back through the board gently from the back could be a good way to solder them back in. If things need to be scraped though i.e. pins, it really is best to replace them.
At least you have seen some good signs of life and if you only have to replace some header pins and connectors you are laughing.
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Tks for the shop details - will check them out!.
Test Update 2
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I resoldered all the pin on to the solenoid board - and found a few more joints that looked questionable so resoldered them as well to make sure.
Put the board back - powered up, played one ball and back to the same problem again. No ball kick and continuous resetting of the 5 drop targets.
I suppose on the positive side it seems that the solenoid board itself is OK (likely) ... now need to look somewhere else .. BUT WHERE !@#
Some good pinball parts shops that between them should have everything you need........
RTBB - Vic based and a member here on AP. www.rtbb.com.au
Pinball Life - US based and their shipping is starting to get expensive. www.pinballlife.com
Marco Specialties - their shipping has actually come down in price and is much more reasonable than it used to be. http://www.marcospecialties.com/
Pinball Resource - excellent shop but ordering takes a bit to get your head around. http://www.pbresource.com/
If you have loose header pins they can be re-soldered but preferred option if possible would be just to replace the header pins and connectors and fix the problem for good. Putting the connector on and then pushing the pins back through the board gently from the back could be a good way to solder them back in. If things need to be scraped though i.e. pins, it really is best to replace them.
At least you have seen some good signs of life and if you only have to replace some header pins and connectors you are laughing.
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Connectors most likely.
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Thanks = is there any way to clean them so they make good contact - or do I need to try and buy new ones?
Connectors most likely.
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You should really repin the lot of them, 30yr old machine, its worth doing.
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Thanks = is there any way to clean them so they make good contact - or do I need to try and buy new ones?
Connectors most likely.
RTBB should have most if not all of the header pins and connectors you need. If for some reason they dont Great Plains Electronics will have them.
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OK ... will contact RTBB and get the items, then do a repin of the machine.
BTW - I checked the kicker solenoid and resoldered the wires as it looked like they were a bit questionable. No change unfortunately - still the same problem...
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Just a follow-up question on this issue - would it be better for me to test the connections to see if there is continuity/resistance e.g. with meter, to see if the connectors and/or pins are failty first before buying new parts?
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Just a follow-up question on this issue - would it be better for me to test the connections to see if there is continuity/resistance e.g. with meter, to see if the connectors and/or pins are failty first before buying new parts?
A visual check is all you need. If they are tarnished or have signs of corrosion - they all need to go.
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Just a follow-up question on this issue - would it be better for me to test the connections to see if there is continuity/resistance e.g. with meter, to see if the connectors and/or pins are failty first before buying new parts?
A visual check is all you need. If they are tarnished or have signs of corrosion - they all need to go.
The pins seem to be OK but hard to say with connects as can't see inside. Will see uf I can find a magnifying glass and see if that helps.
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Honestly, if the header pins are tarnished or slightly worn as Nino said, they need to be replaced. If you replace the header pins then you need to replace the pins in the connectors as well. Relatively pointless changing one and not the other. The machine came good when you started re-seating connectors which points to replacing them. They are simply one thing you can't skimp on if you want a reliable machine for years to come. It is tedious and time consuming work but the enjoyment you get out of knowing the machine is going to work when you turn it on is well worth it. There is nothing worse than playing a game and not knowing if and when it is going to fail on you.
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Thanks - point noted.
I will order the items this evening.
Honestly, if the header pins are tarnished or slightly worn as Nino said, they need to be replaced. If you replace the header pins then you need to replace the pins in the connectors as well. Relatively pointless changing one and not the other. The machine came good when you started re-seating connectors which points to replacing them. They are simply one thing you can't skimp on if you want a reliable machine for years to come. It is tedious and time consuming work but the enjoyment you get out of knowing the machine is going to work when you turn it on is well worth it. There is nothing worse than playing a game and not knowing if and when it is going to fail on you.
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I have been able to find header pins at RTBB but don't see the pins that go inside the connector. Thinking about it - the connector pins are fitted to the wiring harness so that will need to be pulled cut off and resoldered.
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You should really repin the lot of them, 30yr old machine, its worth doing.
^^^
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Assuming the connector pins are 0.156", you should be able to find everything on this page.
http://www.rtbb.com.au/catalog/index.php?cPath=22_88_196_172&osCsid=564238e3c7906aa45d8367655e1d5b82 (http://www.rtbb.com.au/catalog/index.php?cPath=22_88_196_172&osCsid=564238e3c7906aa45d8367655e1d5b82)
Down the bottom of that page there are 0.156" trifurcon crimp terminals. These are the pins that you need.
If you have something small enough to push into the bottom or flat side of the pins in the individual pin holes from the front of the connector to unlatch the existing pins you can pull them out and then cut them off as close to the pin as possible. There typically isn't much spare length of the wires. It will save you a heap of angst and time if you have a crimping tool as well. the wires don't need to be soldered into the pins.
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Thanks very much for your patience in working through this issue with me. I am about to place an order and something occurred to me - the connectors on the right-hand side appear to be slightly smaller than the other's (0.156"). When I resoldered the pins - they were much closer to each other than the 0.156s. Don't want to place a second order and have to wait for parts again if I can help it - do you perhaps know what size the different pins are?
I have attached pics - yellow arrow highlights the smaller pinned connector, and you can also get an overall view of the board and its condition. Note - this was as found, pre-resolder job. Also added a pic of the battery - do I need to remove this? I have read that it should be removed, but this one seems to be in good condition and looks to have been replaced since the original was fitted.
Assuming the connector pins are 0.156", you should be able to find everything on this page.
http://www.rtbb.com.au/catalog/index.php?cPath=22_88_196_172&osCsid=564238e3c7906aa45d8367655e1d5b82 (http://www.rtbb.com.au/catalog/index.php?cPath=22_88_196_172&osCsid=564238e3c7906aa45d8367655e1d5b82)
Down the bottom of that page there are 0.156" trifurcon crimp terminals. These are the pins that you need.
If you have something small enough to push into the bottom or flat side of the pins in the individual pin holes from the front of the connector to unlatch the existing pins you can pull them out and then cut them off as close to the pin as possible. There typically isn't much spare length of the wires. It will save you a heap of angst and time if you have a crimping tool as well. the wires don't need to be soldered into the pins.
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The smaller sized pins are 0.100"
Yes you should remove the battery and install a remote battery holder. Better to be safe than sorry. There are also kits you can buy to re-build the 5V and HV sections of the power driver board.
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I get mine from Altronics. This is what i use;
http://www.altronics.com.au/p/p5470-crimp-pins-2.54mm-suit-p-5472-p-5482-pk-100/
And these for the larger style connector;
http://www.altronics.com.au/p/p5640-oupiin-crimp-pins-3.96mm-suit-s-5642-s-5660-pk-100/
I use these for all the low current connectors, ie switch matrix etc, and Trifurcon pins for anything power supply/hi current related.
I usually get the Trifurcons from GPE or Pinball Life, though i might try RTBB next time i need them (didn't know they had them) @.@
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Update
Have ordered the parts from RTBB and also managed to get some of the smaller pins and connectors from Jaycar along with desoldering braid and desoldering suction, so will start rebuilding in the next few days. I have also ordered a crimper so will try and do the job without soldering. Looking forward to getting this machine running smoothly. Great challenge - would have no chance of success if it had not been for the kind assistance of everyone here.
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Decided to pop down to Altronics to get some crimp pins and a crimper to start the solenoid board rebuild. I have ordered from Bony Beast but not sure when the bits will arrive so decided to get going right away.
I have done tree connector replacements (1, 2 & 3 in the image) ... but so far no change in the fault.
So, with a full resolder of the pins done, there are only a few more connectors to do before I start on a full replacement of the pins. So far there have been no signs of and/or burnt or otherwise faulty crimp pins so I hope that this replacement exercise fixes the problem, else I am not sure what to do next..
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Have you actually pulled the board out of the machine and checked for cracked solder joints on the pins? Not impossible that the header pins are the problem.
Whilst the crimp pins may not have looked damaged, I can assure you that after 30 years they are not like new and should be replaced. Did you notice whether the old pins were flattened compared to the new ones you put in?
My guess is that once you remove that board and inspect the back of the header pins closely you will find cracked joints which may well be your problem.
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You can test the connection between driver board and solenoids very easily by attaching a wire to ground braid and then touching the metal tab of the transistor with the other end of your wire, this will run the transistor to ground.. do this on the kick out coil and see if it fires.. if it does then all well and good.. the path from transistor to coil seems fine. If it doesn't then the fault more than likely is elsewhere and could lie between the signal to fire ( from CPU) and the driver. Take note though that when you do the tab test it determines the very last stage between driver and coil and so your fault may be before this which is either a faulty IC or signal connector fault. what the guys here are saying is 100% correct and to completely eliminate the fault you really do have to do the laborious task of repining the connectors and then maybe some more... it could be the connectors and often this is the case... your signal to and from CPU are the irritating ones on the RHS which you haven't done yet.
you could also have a fault with a buffer chip.. or a PIA etc. But before we get complicated.. do the mechanics and then if no luck we venture further
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Yes - I took the solenoid board off some while ago and resoldered all the pins in the hope that would solve the problem. As that didn't work, I started replacing crimp pins and then shifted to replacing the header pins and replaced the long, brown one on the right hand side (see pic) this evening. The rest should go quite quickly as I am getting familiar with the process and there are less pins to deal with. Should have new header pins installed and the board back in the machine by tomorrow.
Crimp pins seemed "normal" albeit a bit tarnished, but not overly squashed.
How do you spot a cracked joint?
Have you actually pulled the board out of the machine and checked for cracked solder joints on the pins? Not impossible that the header pins are the problem.
Whilst the crimp pins may not have looked damaged, I can assure you that after 30 years they are not like new and should be replaced. Did you notice whether the old pins were flattened compared to the new ones you put in?
My guess is that once you remove that board and inspect the back of the header pins closely you will find cracked joints which may well be your problem.
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A cracked or 'dry' joint is just that. There will be a hairline crack in the solder itself or sometimes a bit of a hole. Whilst they don't look to be anything nasty, they can and often do render that particular pin defective.
I keep coming back to the point earlier that the machine started working a for a few balls or games after you re-seated the connectors. That is a very good symptom that the connector/s or header pins are your problem. Gav is spot on and there could be other components that have failed but the first step is to rule out the connectors and pins as your problem.
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Bad news ...
After a day replacing all the header pins, I have just reinstalled the board and one solenoid fired and all the lights came on ... and stayed that way. So, worse off than before - and something must be shorting. Hopefully I haven't done any permanent damage. Have left it for now, and near impossible to check that things are right without a circuit diagram.
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Oh dear.
Maybe just double check that you haven't got any solder splash bridging across some header pins and that you put the right connectors back on the right way. It is easy to misalign them sometimes. There could be other issues obviously but just check the quick and easy things first.
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Thanks - will give it a go. It there likely to be damage to some other circuitry?
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Hopefully not but it all depends on what actually happened. If you turned the machine off pretty quickly hopefully it will be OK and there won't have been any damage to the solenoid or anything else. Maybe check the fuses and make sure you didn't blow a fuse as well.
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I flew like a rocket to flick the OFF switch ... didn't smell any burning...
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Sounds like it's Time to do some checking before next power on. Maybe using a series test lamp jig or variac would be good to avoid further damage. Semiconductors are gonna be quicker at blowing than you getting to a switch.
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I think that is beyond my capability.
Sounds like it's Time to do some checking before next power on. Maybe using a series test lamp jig or variac would be good to avoid further damage. Semiconductors are gonna be quicker at blowing than you getting to a switch.
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My spares arrived from RTBB today so I have pulled out the board again to start checking it over. The pins and crimps look much better quality than those I got from Altronics
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Yes Check voltages on the rectifier board first with only J2 connected, then move forward after all readings are all correct. good luck.
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OK - I have removed the apron and checked the switch under the ball and it seems to be working correctly... BUT the ball is not ejecting automatically. If I move the ball into the pin launcher then everything is fine and the system resets and the game goes normally. I tried the self test and the solenoids cycle through but the ball ejector does not work during the cycle. That could be the problem. The switch seems to be new and looks like it's been replaced recently..
Should I test the solenoid with an amp meter?
Also, one of the five drop targets does not drop when going through the test cycle - no sure if that is an issue as they work correctly during play?
All should drop during the test cycle. i would check the transistor that drives the little target trip coil. Each target has one of these, plus the larger coil that resets the whole target bank, Mine used to reset twice at the start of a ball sometimes, prob a common thing as My Cheetah and Quicksilver do the same thing sometimes. or could be a mis adjusted switch on that target. or could be a broken wire to the Target trip coil
The manual tells you what transistor fires each solenoid.
I am not familiar with Cosmic Princess but it may be a part of the game that you start off with certain targets up and others down, once you hit the ones that are up then it gives you others to hit.
The apron is the steel cover at the bottom of the playfield, the ball launch solenoid and mech is under there.
Take the apron off, check the resistance of the solenoid with your multimeter, if it is under 3 ohms resistance its probably cooked, also check the driver transistor on the solenoid driver board on diode mode with your multimeter, the link I posted will tell you how to do that, compare it against others that you know are working ok.
A visual inspection of the transistor may reveal damage too.
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I think that is beyond my capability.
Sounds like it's Time to do some checking before next power on. Maybe using a series test lamp jig or variac would be good to avoid further damage. Semiconductors are gonna be quicker at blowing than you getting to a switch.
A series test lamp jig takes about 10 minutes to make and costs about $5. A variac may be out of your price comfort zone though.
Google is your friend if you need details of how to make a test jig. Z
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Thanks .... continuing with process after a few days break due to other activities. I need to check the soldering - because that has definitely caused a major malfunction and don't want to put it back until that is sorted.
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Rosco
could you do me a favour and measure the resistance across the 3 POTS on the sound card - let me know what values you get for each?
Many thanks!
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Apologies for the delay in responding ... I was wandering around the Mediterranean for most of July.
Is it possible to test pots without putting the solenoid board back? The board is still lying on my desk after the last attempt. Have decided not to try and rework the board again myself - last attempt got 3rd degree burns on my hand from the soldering iron and the thing didn't even work afterwards. Have a few options to try to get the board sorted/replaced so will explore them when time permits. Currently working 3 jobs with little free time.
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OK - back to the job at hand now.
Working carefully this time.... I resoldered all the header pins back in and added an earth lead as per the .NL website. Still not working. Everything lights up like a Christmas tree though...
I checked for any shorting spots and cleaned between contact points to make sure there was no shorting.
One observation I did make was that the female connecter seems to be very loose fitting now and barely gets on. I used the 2.54 header pins and they seem much SHORTER that the ones that were already on it. Quite a bit shorter in fact! I haven't got around to the female header plastic holders and their pins, but wanted to test the progress - it should at least perform like the old setup bit - perhaps even correctly... but only all lights on permanently!
Question is - are there different lengths of the actual pins in the 2.54mm headers? I was thinking of buying a new replacement board but want to complete my "pinball apprenticeship" and at least try and get things working. This will likely mean another trip to Altronics though ...
TIA, Rossco
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Removed the .1 pins and replaced them with new. Same situation - all lights go on and stay on permanently. Looks like I will have to buy a replacement solenoid board. Into the bin with the old one...
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New board ordered and should arrive any day now. Keen to get this machine up and running again. Been gathering dust in the garage for too long. Will likely put it on Gumtree and sell it around Xmas time.
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New board arrived and fitted.
1. Powers up with sound
2. NO scores at all (all LEDs dead)
3. Game starts - no table bumpers or targets work, flippers work
4. After about 45 seconds. everything switches off
Any suggestions welcomed.... TIA
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Rectifier board issues? Have you checked the voltage test points or even the fuses on the rectifier board?
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Thanks for the suggestions. I visually checked the fuses under the play table and they seemed OK. I will check again and have a closer inspection. I have got a meter somewhere so may be able to do a proper check too...
Will report back ...
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I checked this board with a whole row of fuses - one seemed to have blown (see pic).
Any idea what fuses I need? I seem to recall something about "slow burning" or something. There is a coil of fuse wire inside.
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Yes Slow blow fuse, must replace with the slow blow type. Playfield coils not working? check fuse under playfield , should be near the flipper mechs if that has blown no Playfield coils will work . Did you check the voltages on the rectifier board with only J2 connected?? only when these voltages are present and correct can you start plugging the rest in .
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No displays? check fuse inside head box , Carefull high voltage here!!, ^&( Unplug from wall before removing and checking . at least turn game off under cabinet!
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Thanks - starting to make sense now. I have got a voltmeter - is there a test procedure?
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Hang on i just noticed the large white Resistor on the rectifier board is f**ked by the looks of it and need replacing before you go any further!!
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Thanks - starting to make sense now. I have got a voltmeter - is there a test procedure?
Set meter to ohms or if it has a buzzer use that , carefully remove at least one end of the fuse from the fuse holder, but really take each one at a time and check is the best way , then put leads on the ends of the fuse, it should buzz or at least change resistance if you set the on Ohms got it??
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Yip - will do...
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No displays? check fuse inside head box , Carefull high voltage here!!, ^&( Unplug from wall before removing and checking . at least turn game off under cabinet!
Thanks Ralph - will check it out quickly (will remove power until things are sorted)...
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Hang on i just noticed the large white Resistor on the rectifier board is f**ked by the looks of it and need replacing before you go any further!!
Is that replaceable?
There seems to be something snapped off at VR-1 .. is that important?
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Hang on i just noticed the large white Resistor on the rectifier board is f**ked by the looks of it and need replacing before you go any further!!
Is that replaceable?
There seems to be something snapped off at VR-1 .. is that important?
@.@
Do yourself a favour and read this a few times
http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm
Rectifier Board Fuses.
Here is a list of the rectifier board fuses. This applies to all generations of Bally power supplies from 1977 to 1985.
◾F1 = 10 amp fast-blo (CPU controlled feature lamps)
◾F2 = 3/4 amp slo-blo (score display high voltage)
◾F3 = 4 amp fast-blo (unregulated +5 volts)
◾F4 = 5 amp fast-blo (solenoids, if game has 2 flippers)
◾F4 = 6 amp fast-blo (solenoids, if game has 3 flippers)
◾F4 = 7 amp fast-blo (solenoids, if game has 4 flippers)
◾F5 = 20 amp fast-blo (general illumination lights)
◾F6 = 3 amp slo-blo (incoming 120 volts AC line power)
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Hang on i just noticed the large white Resistor on the rectifier board is f**ked by the looks of it and need replacing before you go any further!!
Is that replaceable?
There seems to be something snapped off at VR-1 .. is that important?
@.@
Yes , i didn't see that one. I would get help with it, i will send you a pm
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VR-1 is the varistor and that will have mains voltage on one of those broken legs. The large resistor is a 600-620 ohm 10 Watt resistor.
Was the varistor on the board before you started troubleshooting ?
As Ralph suggests, there could be a serious underlying issue that needs to be resolved before moving on.
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No displays? check fuse inside head box , Carefull high voltage here!!, ^&( Unplug from wall before removing and checking . at least turn game off under cabinet!
Thanks Ralph - will check it out quickly (will remove power until things are sorted)...
Couldn't see any fuses in the header. Took these pics of the boards I found:
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Hang on i just noticed the large white Resistor on the rectifier board is f**ked by the looks of it and need replacing before you go any further!!
Is that replaceable?
There seems to be something snapped off at VR-1 .. is that important?
@.@
Do yourself a favour and read this a few times
http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm
Rectifier Board Fuses.
Here is a list of the rectifier board fuses. This applies to all generations of Bally power supplies from 1977 to 1985.
◾F1 = 10 amp fast-blo (CPU controlled feature lamps)
◾F2 = 3/4 amp slo-blo (score display high voltage)
◾F3 = 4 amp fast-blo (unregulated +5 volts)
◾F4 = 5 amp fast-blo (solenoids, if game has 2 flippers)
◾F4 = 6 amp fast-blo (solenoids, if game has 3 flippers)
◾F4 = 7 amp fast-blo (solenoids, if game has 4 flippers)
◾F5 = 20 amp fast-blo (general illumination lights)
◾F6 = 3 amp slo-blo (incoming 120 volts AC line power)
Helpful thanks...
These guys seem to have at least some slow blows. Are they the same type?
http://www.altronics.com.au/hardware/fuses/?type_1=3ag-slow-blow-fuses
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Yes, Those fuses will do.
I get the feeling you are in way over your head. I wouldn't be surprised if you've butchered the repinning either. You should probably get someone out to help you through it.
I had similar symptoms on a friends cosmic princess, most if not all of the issues resolved once i rebuilt the rectifier board, and given you have a rottendog solenoid board, then i'd start here, at the rectifier board and back.
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VR-1 is the varistor and that will have mains voltage on one of those broken legs. The large resistor is a 600-620 ohm 10 Watt resistor.
Was the varistor on the board before you started troubleshooting ?
As Ralph suggests, there could be a serious underlying issue that needs to be resolved before moving on.
I haven't done anything to that area and I got it like that. It has never really worked properly from the outset so it looks like I will to get a new rectifier?
Doesn't look that complicated - unlike the solenoid board that I resoldered the pins on. Maybe I can just get parts??
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Yes, Those fuses will do.
I get the feeling you are in way over your head. I wouldn't be surprised if you've butchered the repinning either. You should probably get someone out to help you through it.
I had similar symptoms on a friends cosmic princess, most if not all of the issues resolved once i rebuilt the rectifier board, and given you have a rottendog solenoid board, then i'd start here, at the rectifier board and back.
I am not skilled in pinball repairs but am eager to learn the necessary processes. I have been reluctant to get a repair person in as they charge $160 before doing any work and that will soon exceed the value of the machine. The charge is probably warranted, but the economics and my interest (fuelled by the generous help from specialists here), keeps me going.
I am confident that I did they pinning correctly - took lots of time and carefully did each one, and checked them afterwards.
Can one buy reasonably priced rectifier boards anywhere?
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Yes, Those fuses will do.
I get the feeling you are in way over your head. I wouldn't be surprised if you've butchered the repinning either. You should probably get someone out to help you through it.
I had similar symptoms on a friends cosmic princess, most if not all of the issues resolved once i rebuilt the rectifier board, and given you have a rottendog solenoid board, then i'd start here, at the rectifier board and back.
I am not skilled in pinball repairs but am eager to learn the necessary processes. I have been reluctant to get a repair person in as they charge $160 before doing any work and that will soon exceed the value of the machine. The charge is probably warranted, but the economics and my interest (fuelled by the generous help from specialists here), keeps me going.
I am confident that I did they pinning correctly - took lots of time and carefully did each one, and checked them afterwards.
Can one buy reasonably priced rectifier boards anywhere?
If you do get a tech in, make sure its not the same guy that services 5RPM motors.... !*! !*!
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Yes, Those fuses will do.
I get the feeling you are in way over your head. I wouldn't be surprised if you've butchered the repinning either. You should probably get someone out to help you through it.
I had similar symptoms on a friends cosmic princess, most if not all of the issues resolved once i rebuilt the rectifier board, and given you have a rottendog solenoid board, then i'd start here, at the rectifier board and back.
I am not skilled in pinball repairs but am eager to learn the necessary processes. I have been reluctant to get a repair person in as they charge $160 before doing any work and that will soon exceed the value of the machine. The charge is probably warranted, but the economics and my interest (fuelled by the generous help from specialists here), keeps me going.
I am confident that I did they pinning correctly - took lots of time and carefully did each one, and checked them afterwards.
Can one buy reasonably priced rectifier boards anywhere?
If you do get a tech in, make sure its not the same guy that services 5RPM motors.... !*! !*!
Ha - won't be any time soon !!
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Looks like a good product... but it comes with a warning:
http://www.rottendog.us/bps018.html
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VR-1 is the varistor and that will have mains voltage on one of those broken legs. The large resistor is a 600-620 ohm 10 Watt resistor.
Was the varistor on the board before you started troubleshooting ?
As Ralph suggests, there could be a serious underlying issue that needs to be resolved before moving on.
Have found resistor here: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/620-Ohm-10-Watt-Wire-Wound-Cement-Resistors-10-Piece-Lot-CR10-620-RC-/161392309517?_trksid=p2054897.l4275
Where can I get a varistor? Any idea what specs it is?
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VR-1 is the varistor and that will have mains voltage on one of those broken legs. The large resistor is a 600-620 ohm 10 Watt resistor.
Was the varistor on the board before you started troubleshooting ?
As Ralph suggests, there could be a serious underlying issue that needs to be resolved before moving on.
I haven't done anything to that area and I got it like that. It has never really worked properly from the outset so it looks like I will to get a new rectifier?
Doesn't look that complicated - unlike the solenoid board that I resoldered the pins on. Maybe I can just get parts??
From this reply, it's evident you're confusing the solenoid driver board with the MOU board.
Like I said earlier, spend some time reading over that online manual. I've read it about a dozen times at least. It's a valuable source of good information. Please please get familiar with it, you will learn a lot from it. And to be honest, if you're going to own a pinny it's best you know how to fix things.
The new bright green board is the rottendog solenoid driver board, looks brand new so should not have any problems with it, but it might be worth checking the fuse on it isn't blown.
To repair the rectifier board you can get most parts from rtbb.com.au but you'll have to remove the board from the pinball which means snipping all the wires soldered to it so make sure you take some detailed notes!
I'll offer to do the work for you if you want but you'll need to send me the board and all the components.
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VR-1 is the varistor and that will have mains voltage on one of those broken legs. The large resistor is a 600-620 ohm 10 Watt resistor.
Was the varistor on the board before you started troubleshooting ?
As Ralph suggests, there could be a serious underlying issue that needs to be resolved before moving on.
Found a replacement for the resistor: http://www.radioparts.com.au/product/37577872/pw10-600r-600r-ohm-wirewound-resistor-pw10-10-watt#.VEpOdK1xnmQ
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Looking to buy a good test meter (mine is a bit too old)...
Is this any good? http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM1549&CATID=97&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1060#1
Any recommendations on a suitable one to get for pinball system testing?
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VR-1 is the varistor and that will have mains voltage on one of those broken legs. The large resistor is a 600-620 ohm 10 Watt resistor.
Was the varistor on the board before you started troubleshooting ?
As Ralph suggests, there could be a serious underlying issue that needs to be resolved before moving on.
I haven't done anything to that area and I got it like that. It has never really worked properly from the outset so it looks like I will to get a new rectifier?
Doesn't look that complicated - unlike the solenoid board that I resoldered the pins on. Maybe I can just get parts??
From this reply, it's evident you're confusing the solenoid driver board with the MOU board.
Like I said earlier, spend some time reading over that online manual. I've read it about a dozen times at least. It's a valuable source of good information. Please please get familiar with it, you will learn a lot from it. And to be honest, if you're going to own a pinny it's best you know how to fix things.
The new bright green board is the rottendog solenoid driver board, looks brand new so should not have any problems with it, but it might be worth checking the fuse on it isn't blown.
To repair the rectifier board you can get most parts from rtbb.com.au but you'll have to remove the board from the pinball which means snipping all the wires soldered to it so make sure you take some detailed notes!
I'll offer to do the work for you if you want but you'll need to send me the board and all the components.
Thanks for the offer - I may give it a go first if that's OK (in the interest of learning the process), but certainly may take up your offer if I get stuck.
I worked on the solenoid driver board you may recall - that's what I replaced the pins on and resoldered/crimped as the first attempt to resolve the issues.
I replaced the brand-new rotten dog board about 3 hrs ago so it is all working and in order (fuse is fine).
Very difficult to try and work through the repairs without any wiring diagram or schematic I have to say. Haven't been able to locate one for the Cosmic Princess - despite my best efforts.
I can see that so far I need: (1) fuses as per the list posted earlier (2) ceramic resistor (3) V1 ...not sure of the specs for this ?? Any idea?
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You will need to completely rebuild the rectifier board!
Have you read the repair guide yet?
Read the repair guide!
Did i mention you should read the repair guide?
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Have ordered this item and will finish the last of the replacement/upgrade activities which will hopefully get the machine running smoothly. What I really like about this machine is that it is true "Australiana" - made in Perth, low numbers and it is quite a nice game to play. Was thinking of selling it off, but will move it to a nice place in the entertainment room in the house where I can get some use out of it. May sell it a bit later on though ... will see.
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I received my Rottendog rectifier board today (BPS918) and it looks the same as the one currently installed.
On this page however, there is a warning about desoldering/resoldering, complexity, only skilled repair people to attempt etc:
http://rottendog.us/bps018.html
However, as the top of the page it says "direct replacement" so I am wondering if I simply plug it in or if I need to make some mods.
I won't proceed until I get clarity so I am hoping someone here has done a replacement and can offer advice on how to proceed.
Tks
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All they are saying is you will need to unsolder the wires from the old pcb and resolder to the new. So you need to be proficient at soldering, an eye for detail in connecting the correct wires to the correct points and confident at doing the task. Otherwise get someone to do it for you. The pcb isn't just a matter of unplugging the molex connectors. They are just covering they're arses and I think you will be ok. Mind you I haven't done one of these yet.
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Thanks for that. I will pull the board off after a detailed photo shoot and see what is connected at the rear. If it is indeed like-for-like then the existing wires should map directly to the new board. If this is the case I can solder one wire at a time and cross-reference with the wiring diagram to make sure it is correct. I plan to replace the molexs also and hopefully that will complete the upgrade job.