The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => General Discussion => General Pinball Discussion => Topic started by: spacejam0 on January 14, 2015, 09:11:25 AM
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This may have already been covered but I haven't seen it.
I was reading on this forum last week that with the new stern boards the cost of manufacturing will be less and the question was asked if these savings would be passed on. Now it seems that instead of bringing the price down stern are doing the opposite and putting the price up and there costs will actually be coming down.
Does this sound correct or am I missing something?
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When was the last time a business cut its cost and passed on the savings to the consumer?
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When was the last time a business cut its cost and passed on the savings to the consumer?
Yes, the shareholders are chucking high 5s.
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When was the last time a business cut its cost and passed on the savings to the consumer?
Like
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First, let's clarify that NOBODY except Stern and their accountants probably knows what the actual costs of old and new system is. It could well be the new system is MORE expensive - we don't know and I doubt we will EVER find out.
Second, the development costs for any new system like this are astronomical (ask me how I know *%*) and will have to be recouped from, yes, THE CUSTOMER!
Third, if you are reading this crap on Pinside take ANYTHING you read there with a grain of salt. They are fast to gossip and bitch and tear down anything that anyone says but very slow to respond to a cry for assistance from a genuine hobbyist wanting help with a problem.
We are very lucky to have properly moderated sites here in Australia (AP & AA)
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I covered the conversion costs from a USA bought machine plus shipping plus import costs plus the Australian dollar exchange rate etc on another thread and the $7500 to $7850 range is exactly what the machine costs out to in Australia for a BNIB Pro so we are paying what the conversion formula says we should be paying pro rata.
We had it too good for too long with a good Australian dollar.
The $7100 and previous $6900 mark was about $500 or $700 under what we should have been paying when u do the maths.
Stern has to cover a massive increase in new high end design and engineering staff plus extra management , then throw in the research and development costs of the completely new SPIKETM system plus a new factory which is three times the size with 3 production lines instead of one. An increase was inevitable unfortunately.
The machines are a lot better so we have that as a bonus.
I am hearing that the pricing in Australia is not set in concrete and is being relooked at given customer feedback.
It pays to negotiate just like you do with any new purchase of a luxury item.
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When was the last time a business cut its cost and passed on the savings to the consumer?
Business needs to take care of itself and return the shareholders appropriately, so that comment is justified.
It's not the job of business to just "serve the consumer" - it must serve itself, and generally maximise profits.
As Mike said, there are also costs to recoup investing in progress.
But business also need to be mindful of risks of backlash when consumers become aware of behaviours that amount to profiteering.
Given the effectively boutique market Stern sells to and the lack of real competition - they will probably get away with some level of profiteering, and perhaps want to to maximise returns in the expectation of loss of market share to competitors - like Mike.
But here's the thing - if Stern keep pushing prices up to maximise profits, and the margins become so attractive, the normal economic effect is to bring new players into the field attracted by the returns. So like so many things, it is a balance. Some might even argue that they should maintain a good margin but drop the price as low as possible in order to discourage new players being able to compete well.
(Caveat - my worst subjects by a long shot at uni were economics and that probably shows!! :) )
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Stern have yet to master how to boil the frog effectively.
The backlash we are seeing on forums is indicative of poor culinary skills.
I.E. You don't raise product prices across the board (pardon the pun) in the same week that you announce a new operating system that is less labour intensive and cheaper to manufacture than its predecessor.
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Business must be viable to continue operating so you can understand that
How much will the Aussie dollar effect sales of Future NIB games?
allot I would imagine.
Australia seems to buy allot of NIB games I wonder how much business will be lost from that?
It is not something they can really control though but would have to effect them.
With the higher prices might be a little of a problem unless the price increase locally covers the slower sales in Aus and other countries as the USA dollar gets stronger again?
The Aussie dollar would have to effect even the secondhand market I would assume the prices would have to go up by allot.
Im not entirely sure which one would be effected the most the NIB games or secondhand games?
Good if you own games already here in Australia new or old no good if you are an importer of new or old games.
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Here's a good litmus test -
The Victorian ex-Stern agent has just pulled all of their NIB Stern pin auctions off ebay since they were listed at the "old" pricing. Never mind that the pins have has been listed for months on end with no sale.
No doubt we will see new listings with new prices (using old stock inventory purchased at the old prices) in the coming days.
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No doubt we will see new listings with new prices (using old stock inventory purchased at the old prices) in the coming days.
Given the next game(s) they have to buy to replace that stock will cost them more, that is not unusual retailer practice.
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Couple things to point out.
Two weeks ago I contacted three seperate businesses offering brand new Stern stock on ebay Aust and although they were offering titles like Zmustang n Star Trek n Walking Dead and some Premium Star Trek stock at various prices, NO ONE actually had any stock left at all.
So they are not profiteering on older purchased stock and charging the new pricing at all cause the ads were left to attract future orders and weren't indicitive of stock held.
ALSO, Bruce has stated today that he has 3 x Walking Dead Pro BNIB at the $7100. These three will be at $7100 and the next container will be the new pricing ! Seems fair.
If u want a TWD Pro, be quick and save $750.
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The LE has gone up $950 to $11250
Premium $9850
Pro $7850
!@#
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Not enough for your money at those prices. For me I will be buying other luxury items before a NIB pinball. I like Stern pinball, but NIB prices are just too high now.
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Given the next game(s) they have to buy to replace that stock will cost them more, that is not unusual retailer practice.
No doubt, but the real test will be if the end consumer accepts it.
I regularly sell restored machines in what is the premium (8k and above) range and the number of collectors in Australia who can come up with that amount of money in one hit on a semi-regular basis would fit on a standard A4 lined sheet of paper.
The basic stripped back Pro models are now breaching this price point for anyone who doesn't live in Sydney.
The home collector market is still a relatively new market for pinball, but instead of nurturing it and encouraging it to grow, they are squeezing their customer base too hard for the sake of short term gain.
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Stern has to cover a massive increase in new high end design and engineering staff plus extra management , then throw in the research and development costs of the completely new SPIKETM system plus a new factory which is three times the size with 3 production lines instead of one. An increase was inevitable unfortunately.
The machines are a lot better so we have that as a bonus.
Yeh... im not seeing the logic here.
I thought STERN machines were rock solid already... cop an absolute flogging at Timezone etc etc etc.. all without fault. So why change it?
Massive increase in new high end design and engineering.. see above comment.
R&D.. see above comment.
Extra management?... why?... management don't make anything, they push paper so we have extra levels of bureaucracy?
A new factory 3X the size of the old..... maybe they need the extra management to explain that if your production is not ready for a space 3X the size, you don't buy/ lease it?
So bottom line is that STERN have calculated that they can increase production to an extent where a much larger factory is required... but the shortfall of that is that the end product will cost more?
The company obviously should not have expanded... simple.
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No doubt we will see new listings with new prices (using old stock inventory purchased at the old prices) in the coming days.
Given the next game(s) they have to buy to replace that stock will cost them more, that is not unusual retailer practice.
+1 a concept a lot of people do not or refuse to understand
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I think Stern are doing themselves a disfavour with their pricing and even at a talk by Gary about 2 years ago in Sydney he stated that Australia was 25% of their valued business. They better look at their prices and consider some changes if they want to maintain those sales.
I have worked for a few big factories and during those busy times when we started to run out of room and potential sales growth we had to relocate to new and bigger premises after much evaluation. We definitely did not increase our product prices to cover the move, we moved because there was potential sales growth not just because we wanted more room to spread crap around but to pump more sales. No point in more room with more potential with then a decline in sales due to large price increases. They should be putting the pinch on the contract work like the MMr's not on their base line of Pro's especially if they are becoming cheaper to manufacturer. I understand a small increase due to the dollar but there has been increases in a pro's over the last 4 years from $5500 to $7850 which is almost a 43% increase in 4 years.
I also reckon they are lifting prices as I believe when JJP first came out they had a higher price point and then the boutique and new manufacturers came in above Stern. Stern have watched lots of sales and probably thinking, shit we could be earning more, which they probably could be, but still reckon with higher prices means less sales. Gary has been banging on about getting pinball out there, if he stayed $2k under all the other competitors and they would do better. Also reckon it is a strategy to bump some other companies off producing pins.
I haven't bought a NIB stern so can't comment about the service AMD provide but they should be smarter and start importing other machines even just to help themselves.
For someone with a bit of cash, now is probably a good time to start bringing a container once or twice a year of NIB Sterns and other brands, then AMD may start to be a little more competitive or is Bruce on the wind down.
!*! !*! !*! !*! !*! !*!
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No doubt we will see new listings with new prices (using old stock inventory purchased at the old prices) in the coming days.
Given the next game(s) they have to buy to replace that stock will cost them more, that is not unusual retailer practice.
+1 a concept a lot of people do not or refuse to understand
I understand it perfectly, but it doesn't mean I have to simply shrug my shoulders and accept it. Not when there are viable alternative solutions available.
Australia has always been the golden goose for any NIB pinball sales regardless of the company - whether it be Stern/AMD or BW/LAI. They pay big dollars to the parent to secure an exclusive sole distributorship and will defend vigorously (and litigously) any attempt to try and PUBLICLY bypass this well entrenched monopoly.
Fortunately the High Court says otherwise as LAI found out the hard way - (Avel Pty Ltd v Multicoin).
Bally/Williams when pressed at the time for a definitive answer to their credit said it is a local matter and not for them to enforce. #*#
So what do we have as a result, half baked attempts at distributor protection with circuit board hacks under the pretense of ROHS compliance.
There will eventually be a solution to SPIKE (if it does turn out to be a concern), just like we got a bypass to the previous system.
What happened to the guy who owned the golden goose and decided that one gold egg a day wasn't enough?
EDIT: +1 to swinks
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Not enough for your money at those prices. For me I will be buying other luxury items before a NIB pinball. I like Stern pinball, but NIB prices are just too high now.
Totally agree.
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AMD already bring in containers of every type of amusement machines from all over the world. Pinball is only part of their business.
The Australian dollar has gone from $1.19 or more down to .82 cents.
That's a big difference.
AMD have officially said today that Stern have increased the price on their base models up $300 over a 12 month period and the Australian dollar equates to the extra $500 Apx dollars.
If people are unhappy with price increases, write to AMD and Stern like I ALREADY have.
A polite letter will be read and considered.
And you might get something positive back like I did when AMD advised that the TWDead Pro model is still $7100 for the 3 units they have left.
As for the comments about Stern expanding and the new factory etc etc, write Gary Stern a letter like I have and ask your questions.
This is a luxury item, prices go up and down whether we like it or not.
Writing to Stern and AMD politely are the only way these companies can consider your opinion and then make pricing adjustments if they feel it is needed. Be pro-active if u want change and do something. It's not difficult to send a polite and professional email.
Also, it drives me nuts when people call a Stern Pro a stripped back game. It's far from that. That's complete BS.
People who have repeatedly bought BNIB Sterns know that desccription is far from accurate. My BNIB Stern Pros are just as advanced and as fun featured as the other 60 DMD titles I have from every manufacturer known to man and I have played hundreds of other pinnys from many many collections. I have also played every BNIB title Stern has bought out in the last 5 years. Most are excellent.
A lot of BNIB Pros make the so called high end Bally Williams titles look and feel old hat. i want to play pinball and am sick of fixing old machines....
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Also, it drives me nuts when people call a Stern Pro a stripped back game. It's far from that. That's complete BS.
Ok - fair call.
LE and Premium are suped up versions of the Pro then
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AMD already bring in containers of every type of amusement machines from all over the world. Pinball is only part of their business.
The Australian dollar has gone from $1.19 or more down to .82 cents.
That's a big difference.
AMD have officially said today that Stern have increased the price on their base models up $300 over a 12 month period and the Australian dollar equates to the extra $500 Apx dollars.
If people are unhappy with price increases, write to AMD and Stern like I ALREADY have.
A polite letter will be read and considered.
And you might get something positive back like I did when AMD advised that the TWDead Pro model is still $7100 for the 3 units they have left.
As for the comments about Stern expanding and the new factory etc etc, write Gary Stern a letter like I have and ask your questions.
This is a luxury item, prices go up and down whether we like it or not.
Writing to Stern and AMD politely are the only way these companies can consider your opinion and then make pricing adjustments if they feel it is needed. Be pro-active if u want change and do something. It's not difficult to send a polite and professional email.
Also, it drives me nuts when people call a Stern Pro a stripped back game. It's far from that. That's complete BS.
People who have repeatedly bought BNIB Sterns know that desccription is far from accurate. My BNIB Stern Pros are just as advanced and as fun featured as the other 60 DMD titles I have from every manufacturer known to man and I have played hundreds of other pinnys from many many collections. I have also played every BNIB title Stern has bought out in the last 5 years. Most are excellent.
A lot of BNIB Pros make the so called high end Bally Williams titles look and feel old hat. i want to play pinball and am sick of fixing old machines....
email isn't going to do much as often Stern watch Pinside and they see lots of people complain about prices and vow not to buy but they do. Best thing to do is for people not to open their wallets and buy a new pin if they don't like the price Stern will see a change in sales.
also if you look at the number of features (targets, interactive toys etc) and compare to most 90's Bally / WMS, the Stern Pro's have a few less features with the premium and LE.
have to say I would not be surprised if the marketing guy Jody is behind many of the prices and LE's having a different game features etc. Sorry he is a goose.
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some corrections........
email isn't going to do much as often Stern watch Pinside and they see lots of people complain about prices and vow not to buy but they do. The best thing to do is for people not to open their wallets and not buy a new pin if they don't like the price, Stern will then see a change in sales and may react differently.
also if you look at the number of features (targets, interactive toys etc) and compare this to most 90's Bally / WMS, the Stern Pro's have a few less features compared with the premium and LE. Also have to say I would not be surprised if their marketing guy Jody is behind many of the prices and LE's having a different game features etc. Sorry he is a goose and purely business not a pinballer. He is known to delete anything slightly negative from facebook posts and when was the last pin that was launched with a decent promo video before the pin was released to the public.
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A lot of BNIB Pros make the so called high end Bally Williams titles look and feel old hat. i want to play pinball and am sick of fixing old machines....
Big call. While I am no expert, I have not yet played a Stern Pro model that comes within shouting distance of MM, AFM, MB for example. That is just my view based on the user experience, and as none have really grabbed me, I haven't really gone that deep into any. Not to say Stern have not met that standard (or perhaps approached it) with some of their fully decked out models like Spiderman, TSPP, LotR etc. Be interested if any other member believes there are any recent Pro models that surpass the best of B/W - I really would be keen to hear and would make an effort to get hold of one to really explore it.
The "look" of the games I mentioned are timeless - cannot really say that for the "based on some theme" games Stern produces when the series or movie is old hat.
As for feel, that is in fact where Stern loses me every time - they don't really have the feel that B/W managed to achieve - be it flipper mechs, or other mechs, or even the clear used, I am not really sure.
I have lots of old pinball machines - I rarely need to take the glass off (admittedly they were gone over and sorted before entering into the collection), so fixing old machines is probably a reflection of acquiring ones that were not restored, or restored well.
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It is the difference between a game, and an exprrience
Take sterns Star Trek, nice game
, pretty to look at. But it is a pinball machine with a few toys added. Change the toys change the theme
But you look at a Scared Stiff, MB, MM. The whole layout is integrated, toys and features that were designed just for that machine
Maybe (modern) Sterns have no soul
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But you look at a Scared Stiff, MB, MM. The whole layout is integrated, toys and features that were designed just for that machine
Maybe (modern) Sterns have no soul
You know Pete, maybe you just nailed it - the integration of the toys into the game and theme, never thought of that as a major factor.
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It is the difference between a game, and an exprrience
Take sterns Star Trek, nice game
, pretty to look at. But it is a pinball machine with a few toys added. Change the toys change the theme
But you look at a Scared Stiff, MB, MM. The whole layout is integrated, toys and features that were designed just for that machine
Maybe (modern) Sterns have no soul
I also agree.
Take The Next Gen versus the Stern Star Trek. I haven't watch much of either movie/series or whatever they are but I always did and still feel like you are sitting right beside the captain in the next Gen and each shot of each mission feels like you are accomplishing something with good feed back from the machine. Where as the new Star Trek I find myself just following the blinking lights and wondering why it is lit in the first place. TWD has a better feel IMO as you get a feeling of smashing zombies or walkers but it could done better. Maybe they need to look more into the continuity of a game by creating there own story for the game first and designing the modes around it rather than picking bits and pieces from the show. Saying that I do and still will play the new Sterns when I see them but would not buy one.
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It is the difference between a game, and an exprrience
Take sterns Star Trek, nice game
, pretty to look at. But it is a pinball machine with a few toys added. Change the toys change the theme
But you look at a Scared Stiff, MB, MM. The whole layout is integrated, toys and features that were designed just for that machine
Maybe (modern) Sterns have no soul
I also agree.
Take The Next Gen versus the Stern Star Trek. I haven't watch much of either movie/series or whatever they are but I always did and still feel like you are sitting right beside the captain in the next Gen and each shot of each mission feels like you are accomplishing something with good feed back from the machine. Where as the new Star Trek I find myself just following the blinking lights and wondering why it is lit in the first place. TWD has a better feel IMO as you get a feeling of smashing zombies or walkers but it could done better. Maybe they need to look more into the continuity of a game by creating there own story for the game first and designing the modes around it rather than picking bits and pieces from the show. Saying that I do and still will play the new Sterns when I see them but would not buy one.
The word "creating" you used is an issue - I think the lack of creativity has always been a stumbling block for Stern, one of the reasons to stick to games with themes borrowed from movies and TV etc.
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Where's my boring icon gone :) here we go again.
Stern v Bally/Williams :( can't compare different times different eras
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Stern v Bally/Williams :( can't compare different times different eras
Quite agree - but Cavey's enthusiasm for Stern is commendable, so I happily excuse his need to compare, and provide my view on such comments.
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It all gets down to personal preference and how you feel on the day.
Yeh, comparing the late 90,s stuff to today's Sterns is probably not going to get any definitive results. Lol
A lot of the older machines have a lot more sentimental love than the brand new stuff does.
The bit about fixing machines, I rarely have to fix a machine cause 90 percent of my stuff was shopped properly but when u do have to fix something it is very time consuming. The brand new stuff is usually plug n play for years without breakdowns. This is more attractive to new buyers who haven't bought a pin before.
What worries me, is that if everyone Stern bashs all the time, are we scaring new blood, new buyers off from getting into the pinball hobby ?
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A lot of BNIB Pros make the so called high end Bally Williams titles look and feel old hat. i want to play pinball and am sick of fixing old machines....
Big call. While I am no expert, I have not yet played a Stern Pro model that comes within shouting distance of MM, AFM, MB for example. That is just my view based on the user experience, and as none have really grabbed me, I haven't really gone that deep into any. Not to say Stern have not met that standard (or perhaps approached it) with some of their fully decked out models like Spiderman, TSPP, LotR etc. Be interested if any other member believes there are any recent Pro models that surpass the best of B/W - I really would be keen to hear and would make an effort to get hold of one to really explore it.
The "look" of the games I mentioned are timeless - cannot really say that for the "based on some theme" games Stern produces when the series or movie is old hat.
As for feel, that is in fact where Stern loses me every time - they don't really have the feel that B/W managed to achieve - be it flipper mechs, or other mechs, or even the clear used, I am not really sure.
I have lots of old pinball machines - I rarely need to take the glass off (admittedly they were gone over and sorted before entering into the collection), so fixing old machines is probably a reflection of acquiring ones that were not restored, or restored well.
Play every Stern that has come out in the last 5 years and u might just think the same ?
Maybe you won't but get up here Nick for a great sunny Gold Coast holiday and come n play all the Sterns at TimeZone. And meet some of the local pinheads and have a drink and some fun.