The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: AskJacob on July 26, 2009, 11:43:55 PM
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Yeah, crazy. This is pretty far gone, but I skipped this board for my Drac, so it is sink or swim for this PCB. Either it gets saved for the Magic, or it can be declared dead and junked rather than take up space, and I buy another.
Horrific previous work has removed tracks, but there hasn't been much on TV lately so it's something to do. At a bare minimum, more practice on doing corrosion repairs, can always learn something new.
For some reason I just don't like giving up on these old PCBs unless I HAVE to :D
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04519.jpg)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04520.jpg)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04521.jpg)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04522.jpg)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04523.jpg)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04524.jpg)
Cheers
Jacob
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Wow, the Butcher of Ballydad has been at that one. *)*
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Wow those IC pads look terrible, especially challenging when they are completely missing, I hope you have another board that you can use as a reference to rebuild those tracks!! Lots of work to get that one back up and running and to make sure you get continuity in those plated through holes but definitely not too far-gone.
Good luck & patience Jacob.
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Now thats a shocker !
I'll bet you will get it going - but it will be "hard yakka".
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Good Luck on that one i have one that looked similar trying to repair but its on hold maybe seeing you get your going will motivate me *.*
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There were PCB track repair kits at one time consisting of self adhesive tracks and pads with different sizes.
Worked quite well but I haven't seen or used them for ages.
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Yep, they are nearly artists tools. Very nifty stuff, but incredibly expensive. I applied a few times for samples over the years, they never even emailed me back. Was not keen to shell out $$$ if 1. it cost more than the board and 2. I find out I can't use them properly :)
There was resins and colour agents to repair the fibreglass, all kinds of copper stock, shears, knives, applicators and laquers. Cool stuff!
I'll make do with some naked Kynar and raiding the mrs' nail polish *)*
But I'd still like a sample kit!
Cheers
Jacob
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The term 'glutton for punishment' does come to mind.
If you want all the computer parts we throw out because they don't work anymore, let me know!
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Wow, big job but best of luck. Looking forward to the repair log on it!
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A lot of that stuff I've seen before in Mark C's coffee. Interested in your progress Jacob. Will await further postings
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Ok, lost track of time on monday night on this, thought "gee I'm a little tired - I wonder what the time is... and it was 2:20 am @.@"
So thought I'd give it a break last night :)
I also have worn out my solder-sucker - the lip that catches on the trigger has rounded off!. I spent some time here http://www.ludatronics.com.au/ dreaming about owning a Aoyue 2702+ Complete Re-work, soldering & De-soldering station.
Oh how sweet that would be!
Well, I don't think I can spend $450+ right now... so off to one of the few real electronics stores left to buy another $15 sucker-pen...
I have taken a few pics as I have been going along, will get them posted tonight I hope.
Interesting observation - a LOT of the pads when I have been removing the components are BARE COPPER. Not tinned! (and no, I am not ripping out components and peeling off the tracks!)That is incredibly odd, as there is no real way bar sanding them down that you could remove the alloyed solder off the copper. My theory is that the corrosion has attacked the alloy of solder/copper in the joints, basically etching out a thin cross section in the joint. The good news is the copper cleans up reasonably well and tins nicely.
Cheers
Jacob
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so off to one of the few real electronics stores left to buy another $15 sucker-pen...
Amen to that brother!!
Dick Smith Electronics was the last great hobbyist shop that every electronics whiz kid in the 80's wanted to work in but has now reduced itself to selling TVs & White Goods, who's next Jaycar, Altronics??
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WOW - That 701 rework station is an EXACT copy of the Hakko 701 !
Hmmm.. I think I might have to invest in one of these.
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so off to one of the few real electronics stores left to buy another $15 sucker-pen...
Amen to that brother!!
Dick Smith Electronics was the last great hobbyist shop that every electronics whiz kid in the 80's wanted to work in but has now reduced itself to selling TVs & White Goods, who's next Jaycar, Altronics??
I reckon you can thank the Woolies/Coles thing about who has what and in the end we have nothing but no service and no competion . Reckon Dick Smith himself (being a True blue) would shake his head and think OMG.Try buying a set value resistor there now!!!
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Reckon Dick Smith himself (being a True blue) would shake his head and think OMG.Try buying a set value resistor there now!!!
The huge DSE Powerhouse near us removed all the hobbyist stuff last year, lucky we've got a Jaycar about 20Kms from here. And hey what a waste of space that Tandy Electronics is *.* it may as well be a Retravision.
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so off to one of the few real electronics stores left to buy another $15 sucker-pen...
Amen to that brother!!
Dick Smith Electronics was the last great hobbyist shop that every electronics whiz kid in the 80's wanted to work in but has now reduced itself to selling TVs & White Goods, who's next Jaycar, Altronics??
I reckon you can thank the Woolies/Coles thing about who has what and in the end we have nothing but no service and no competion . Reckon Dick Smith himself (being a True blue) would shake his head and think OMG.Try buying a set value resistor there now!!!
Unfortunately there is a simple economic reality behind this - people stopped buying components and there is very little business left in that market. Hopefully enough to sustain Jaycar et al!
These days most electronic items are relatively cheap, so putting time in to fix something broken is a low priority for most people when you can run down and get another one so easily.
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I agree Andrew, it's such a terrible waste of natural resources which only generates more pollution. It's all about mass consumerism & corporate greed *.*
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I agree Andrew, it's such a terrible waste of natural resources which only generates more pollution. It's all about mass consumerism & corporate greed *.*
Not just corporate greed though !! Most people are greedy don't you think ? Thats one of the main reasons why the global economy tanked over the past 12 - 18 months I suspect.
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yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I would rather buy a product that lasted longer than having to upgrade every year, they just don't build things to last any more because it's not good for sales and company profits.
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watches the greedy corporate fat cats wringing their hands in frustration:
"what is wrong with these people? why do they keep playing games that are 10, 20 and 30+ years old?"
:lol
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A lot of that stuff I've seen before in Mark C's coffee.....
That's what was spilled on the board in the first place hehehehe :lol :lol :lol
That board *IS* repairable, laborous yes, but repairable.
I'd be more inclined to use solid copper (insulated-telecom) wires to bypass all the crappy pads/tracks.
I've done a lot worse cpu boards than that, and had them up & running in around 2-3 hours.
Lock the doors, phone off-hook, head down, bum up, you CAN do it !! #@# *%* :D
MM.
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OK a little update, with a "How I do it" - not necessarily the best way, but it works for me and my current tools.
Now, to remove the molex pins, remember the #1 priority is the board and the tracks, so you need to minimise the stress on the pcb. Without fancy desoldering gear, this is what I do...
With (not your best pair, this is hard on them) side cutters, cut the plastic strip base into small pieces, while they are still on the PCB. The you can easily slide the pieces up off the pins: (pic shows me 1/2 way through one). For IC sockets, you need to figure out how to remove the plastic frame and leave the pins behind. This board had 4 different types of sockets, and each one needed a different way to fiddle about to pop it off. For ICs on the PCB, just cut the legs off the body then desolder. Much easier as well as less stressful on the PCB.
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04525.jpg)
Then you can use tweezers (pliers are ok but suck the heat away from the iron) grab each pin and heat the joint from the top side and slide them out, one at a time. To make this much easier, I use a paste flux I bought a small tub of from deal extreme. less than $5 and will last for years.
Once you have all the pins out, it may look like this:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04526.jpg)
The next step is to clean the pads. If they are bare copper that is tarnished like these, a fine grit sandpaper, or extremely careful scaping with a hobby blade back to shiny copper is needed. Next is to tin and flood the pads with fresh new solder:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04527.jpg)
Be quick and gentle with the heat. If the solder won't flow, then stop and re-clean the pads. More heat will not fix it, it will peel up the tracks.
Finally, you remove the excess solder with a sucker-pen. I prefer the pen over braid as you need a lot of heat to use braid. Check the back side and repeat...
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04528.jpg)
In that picture you can see the left over flux on the PCB. That's ok, once we have removed all the crappy sockets, pins and components a good scrub with isopropyl and a nylon brush will have it clean and ready to re-populate.
Here are some areas that cleaned up well:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04530.jpg)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04533.jpg)
Here are some that are going to need work before components go back:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04531.jpg)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04532.jpg)
Those bad areas are in the main corrosion zone, and have had previous heavy handed work done on them...
Coming up next: Cleaning the PCB, and starting track repairs. Oh, and find out why I had to buy nail polish :D
Cheers
Jacob
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I know nothing about boards and am amazed at the stuff you guys can do. Another great thread. Keep the updates coming
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Exceptional work !
I used to do this kind of work "to pass time" - and it is EASILY the hardest kind of board work you can work on. If you can fix this board, you can fix anything !
Keep the updates coming.
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Exceptional work !
I used to do this kind of work "to pass time" - and it is EASILY the hardest kind of board work you can work on. If you can fix this board, you can fix anything !
Keep the updates coming.
Got it in one... it is nearly a zen meditative thing I guess. Once you are over the shock of the board, the slow process of repairing it is fiddly, tedious yet somehow satisfying and relaxing.
I wish my eyes were as good as my camera!
Cheers
Jacob
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Got it in one... it is nearly a zen meditative thing I guess. Once you are over the shock of the board, the slow process of repairing it is fiddly, tedious yet somehow satisfying and relaxing.
Totally! It's like pulling apart a 4 player score motor, you know you don't wanna do it but after getting into the right frame of mind the job goes like a dream. The trick is to do it under total silence, no music, chatter or distractions and it really works :)
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Before and after:
While not fooling anyone that this is an "as new" pcb now, it should be ready to go a few more years now. Just need to pop in the ICs and start testing. And probably need to get an IC or two from Ken too :)
Before:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04519.jpg)
After:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04564.jpg)
Before:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04521.jpg)
After:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04565.jpg)
Before:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04522.jpg)
After:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04566.jpg)
Before:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04523.jpg)
After:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04567.jpg)
Before:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04524.jpg)
After:
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/askjacob/Stern%20Magic/DSC04569.jpg)
Cheers
Jacob
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Reckon Dick Smith himself (being a True blue) would shake his head and think OMG.Try buying a set value resistor there now!!!
The huge DSE Powerhouse near us removed all the hobbyist stuff last year, lucky we've got a Jaycar about 20Kms from here. And hey what a waste of space that Tandy Electronics is *.* it may as well be a Retravision.
Both Tandy (Radio Shack) and Dick Smith are owned by Woolworths now !!!
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Great work - you have the "hands of a surgeon".. !
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Very nice work indeed. *%*
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very very good work dude
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Well, I'd better update even though it isn't very exciting so far.
Finally clicked that I have a bally -35 mpu, not a stern -100, but hey, there is not a huge difference, just surprised it never clicked with me (bally has "square" tracks, where the sterns are "organic" and curvy track). Funny how in your face it can be and you still just don't see it :D
Anyway, she didn't boot. Now that is no real surprise, but still... I found 2 traces I marked down but forgot to repair, so did that. Lets see where we stand right now:
1 - LED jammed on, not even the flicker :(
2 - Reset works fine (needs some 'help' with the PC PSU I'm using as the reset circuit times out quicker than the PSU settles)
3 - CPU is certainly doing "something" - the data and address lines are cycling away, and the VMA is strobing
4 - can see activity on the ROM and RAM busses.
What I do know:
The PIAs and CPU and RAM are fine, a swap with known working parts gives the same symptoms.
My bench rig is fine, the working mpu-100 gives me the 6 flashes (the 7th needs 21v which I CBF setting up - besides if you get 6 you're sweet anyway :))
What I think it is:
It may be the bloody jumpers. Could they be more difficult and weirdly documented?
I may have missed a trace (likely!) - this needs a cool head, which I didn't really have at the time. You need to map out the schematic and probe your way around to make sure everything is connected. To ease the frustration, I moved on to strip the top of the Magic playfield, and rebuild the flippers in the IJ :)
Cheers
Jacob
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To be expected ! This board will be a REAL challenge.
The jumpers must be correct for the ROMs you are using - if the jumpers are wrong, the board won't boot.
Eliminate the Reset section by shorting out pins 39 & 40 on the CPU.
My guess would be a short in the Address or Data lines. The U11 PIA would be where I would start. I have printout the schematic on an A3 page and work through all the permutations and combinations of the Address and Data lines.
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Yah, thanks, sounds like I was heading in the right direction.
Part of me just wanted to hermit away until I sorted it out myself, so I could arise triumphantly and claim my solderhood...
But really, I spent a little too long on it during a busy week, and hit burnout - and thought if I front up, get another opinion then I may well get motivated to fix the damn thing *)*
Will remove the IC's, and probe out all the data lines. I have triple checked the jumpers, but will hit them with a "Fresh Head" in an evening or two. Fear not, this bugger is gonna run :D
Cheers
Jacob
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Yah, thanks, sounds like I was heading in the right direction.
Part of me just wanted to hermit away until I sorted it out myself, so I could arise triumphantly and claim my solderhood...
But really, I spent a little too long on it during a busy week, and hit burnout - and thought if I front up, get another opinion then I may well get motivated to fix the damn thing *)*
Will remove the IC's, and probe out all the data lines. I have triple checked the jumpers, but will hit them with a "Fresh Head" in an evening or two. Fear not, this bugger is gonna run :D
Cheers
Jacob
I've "been there" many times, Jacob - and this is where "patience" is the key. If you can fix this board, you can fix anything. The more time you invest in it, the closer you get to the satisfying moment of the "quick flash" and those all import 6 Flashes .. ..
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Keep it up Jacob you will get there ^^^
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Just have not had any smart time this week unfortunately - and don't want to try when tired/sleepy!
Just you wait till the weekend, MPU - you will obey!
Cheers
Jacob
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Good luck Jacob, you will get it in the end.
Would check the rom jumpers as Nino suggested. Have you tried the board with only U6, U9, U11 installed? Have you also tried the -35 chips in the M-100 to confirm these are alright? Would also buzz the following out (from www.pinrepair.com) if you haven't already, as some of the tracks between U6 and U11 passthrough U7.
I had a similar board, I repaired. It wasn't quite as bad as yours but someone had tried to remove the corrosion, lifted most of the tracks under U8 and then drilled out the hole to each pin to a larger size.
U8 pin 1 (A3) - U7 pin 20, U6 pin 5
U8 pin 2 (A2) - U7 pin 21, U6 pin 6
U8 pin 3 (A1) - U7 pin 22, U6 pin 7, U11 pin 35
U8 pin 4 (A0) - U7 pin 23, U6 pin 8, U11 pin 36
U8 pin 5 (A5) - U7 pin 18, U6 pin 3
U8 pin 6 (A6) - U7 pin 17, U6 pin 2
U8 pin 7 (A7) - U7 pin 15, U6 pin 1, U11 pin 24
U8 pin 8 - Ground
U8 pin 9 (D10)*- U7 pin 6, U6 pin 14, U11 pin 29
U8 pin 10 (D00)*- U7 pin 6, U6 pin 14, U11 pin 29
U8 pin 11 (D11)@- U7 pin 7, U6 pin 15, U11 pin 28
(* U8 pins 9&10 shorted together)
(@ U8 pins 11&12 shorted together)
U8 pin 12 (D01)@- U7 pin 7, U6 pin 15, U11 pin 28
U8 pin 13 (D12)*- U7 pin 8, U6 pin 16, U11 pin 27
U8 pin 14 (D02)*- U7 pin 8, U6 pin 16, U11 pin 27
U8 pin 15 (D13)#- U7 pin 9, U6 pin 17, U11 pin 26
U8 pin 16 (D03)#- U7 pin 9, U6 pin 17, U11 pin 26
U8 pin 17 (CE2) - Q5 rt upper leg, U9 pin 40, U11 pin 34
U8 pin 18 (OD) - U18 pin 6
U8 pin 19 (CE1) - U17 pin 8
U8 pin 20 (R/W) - U7 pin 16, U11 pin 21, U9 pin 34, U18 pin 7
U8 pin 21 (A4) - U7 pin 19, U6 pin 4, U11 pin 22
U8 pin 22 (Vcc) - C13 left leg, R12 upper leg, CR5 lower leg
(@ U8 pins 11&12 shorted together)
(* U8 pins 13&14 shorted together)
(# U8 pins 15&16 shorted together)
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Top notch! Thanks for the buzz list - I was going to sit down and draw one up - now I don't need to!
Wow I bet drilling out whatever plating may have been left in the holes would have really helped that poor old MPU! Funny things people try to do to fix these!
Cheers
Jacob
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Ha - your a brave man Jacob!
Funny things people do? I would have used that board as a frisbee! #*#
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dammit
found some missing traces. repaired them.
then did not double check the hookup, and hooked up 12v to the 5v test point
reckon I have stuffed every IC onboard, and also blew up my logic probe.
Stuff this thing, I'm leaving it alone for a while ^&^
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dammit
found some missing traces. repaired them.
then did not double check the hookup, and hooked up 12v to the 5v test point
reckon I have stuffed every IC onboard, and also blew up my logic probe.
Stuff this thing, I'm leaving it alone for a while ^&^
You poor bastard ive done that myself but didint kill my logic probe at the same time... Just walk away for a while And good luck
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Feel for you Jacob after all the work you put in.
I have repaired boards where a higher voltage was shorted across them and have only had a couple of chips fail. Last one one repaired for someone had a 6821 and Eprom fail. Eprom would no longer read blank after erasing.
Hopefully it will be the socketed chips.
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OUCH !
Sorry to hear that Jacob. Put it aside for the moment and don't worry too much about it.
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Yah thanks guys. I know I am not the 1st to do it, and sadly pretty sure I won't be the last. Let's just say don't check and double check after a day's tiling :(
Obviously was too tired to do it right - so was asking for trouble...
I'll get back onto it soon (when the swearing stops) - I still have a worker so I can find which chips (if any) survived, and pick up and get back into it. Also think I will knock up a little test harness with over-voltage protection, to avoid a repeat ever happening. You think anyone else would want one while I am at it?
On a positive note, my IJ is finally all back together, and is in as good condition as it will ever be until I get round to re-decaling it (had some outstanding issues, including the optical flipper switches hacked out with SS style tungsten switches !@#, Jumpers set to europe, PoA out of kilter, service button dead... and so on ) - anyway, all sorted now.
Was great to have the machine on full song - 3rd game in and got grand champion (after updating the ROMs the memory had been cleared) - and even better, my wife got to come and enjoy some games on her favourite machine, at last, about 6 years after it was purchased (long story :) ).
Soooo, on that note - that is what it is about :) I got to see the end result of it all!
Thanks for the help so far (a HUGE part of this great hobby), thanks for the support, and thanks for the commiserations. I'll dust myself off and get this bloody MPU working - it was never a "commercially viable" option to repair - but now it's PERSONAL :)
Cheers
Jacob
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Ouch! sorry to hear about that.
Wasn't you having a few ale's when working on it #@#
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Nope... so I can't use that excuse....
Didn't feel like a beer either after that... so they will be extra cold after being in the fridge for another week :)
Cheers
Jacob
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Shit J - hope I didn't jinx you with the frisbee comment! !!!
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Hmm no not at all :D
Just have not had any hobby time the past week or 2 between work and so many family commitments. Have been hanging to get into some part of the damn hobby, and in doing so tried to do some complex work when too tired. Can only blame this on myself this time...
So for the last few evenings, it has been good to come home and just have a few games on the freshly rebuilt IJ. Still makes me grin like an idiot playing this game when it is running so well. I videoed a game on the machine so I could upload it to youtube to show the PoA mod in action in a game, and be damned if I didn't have a corker of a game.... 15 minutes long, 780mill but with bugger all modes started [damn scoop still needs some tweaks!].
Now if only I could find the damn video camera cable to upload the footage ^&^
Cheers
Jacob