The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: delarge on November 16, 2013, 04:23:46 PM
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Hi all,
I got a phone call recently asking if I could fix a Williams Hot Tip. It's an EM and have never owned or worked on one, but I said I would see what I could do. It arrived in my garage today and apart from needing a real good clean, there looks to be fuses blown in the bottom of the cabinet. I am used to replacing fuses in my DMD machines with slow blow fuses, but wanted to get clarification before I changed fuses over. Here is a list of fuses in the machine:
6 volt - 15 amp
6 volt - 15 amp
24 volt - 15 amp
110 volt - 10 amp
Playfield fuse: ?
My first question is, are these just slow blow fuses and for the 110v fuse holder, do I use a lower value fuse for an Aussie machine, eg 5 amp?
Thanks in advance,
Adam.
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If you send me your email I can send a copy of the schematic.
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Just checking out the manual on ipdb right now and saw a schematic listed for download. Would that be the same as yours?
Cheers!
Adam.
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A long night of reading repair guides and various forum posts on EM machines.
Hot Tip powers on. Coin door switches now add credits (loose wire on the stepper motor previously) and when coin door switch is activated, the score motor moves for a few seconds and then stops. It is now showing credits up on the credit reel, but nothing happens when I hit the start button.
When machine is on, the lock relay is activated. If I press the switches in the ball locks on the playfield, it kicks out.
Not sure if this repair is out of my depth, but I don't like things beating me. Anyone else have any suggestions?
Cheers!
Adam.
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Are all the scores reels reading zero ?
Sounds like they are as the score motor stops. Does the ball kick out and the "ball in play" light is set at "1" ?
I would start by looking at the jones plugs on the game. These are the connectors between the head, playfield and body. Look for loose connectors or broken wires. Clean the male pins with a wire brush and then check again. Also check the fuse clips that they have tension.
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Are all the scores reels reading zero ?
Sounds like they are as the score motor stops. Does the ball kick out and the "ball in play" light is set at "1" ?
I would start by looking at the jones plugs on the game. These are the connectors between the head, playfield and body. Look for loose connectors or broken wires. Clean the male pins with a wire brush and then check again. Also check the fuse clips that they have tension.
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, all the score reels are reading zero.
There are credits on the stepper, but when I hit the start button, nothing at all happens. I just manually pressed the game over relay and was able to have a game. There's no sounds/chimes in the machine at all, but I was able to hit the ball around, drop targets dropped and reset, all the holes kicked out the ball and the slingshots worked. When the ball drained, nothing registered though. It wouldn't kick the ball out, but was able to flick the ball out with my finger. I turned the machine off and on and the 'Game Over' light was on again.
I have reseated random jones plugs in the head and inside the cabinet, but haven't cleaned them as yet. After around 5 years of pinball tinkering, today was the first time I got a zap out of a machine (game was turned off). Only felt it in my hand, but enough to jolt me back into reality and not become complacent with these machines.
I've gone all over the machine and tugged on wires, but will check again. Will also check the fuse clips again. Even though all the lights are on and the machine seems to be semi operational, could there still be a fuse issue?
When the machine arrived in my garage, it seemed like a nightmare. Now that I've started reading up on the operation and things are working (somewhat), it now makes a little more sense. Hats off to the guys that have big collections of these machines. I wanted a Captain Fantastic in my own collection one day, but will see how I go with Hot Tip first.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Been a while since ive worked on a WMS EM but ill see if I can assist..
If I have read correctly... you can add credits as normal but START button does nothing... LOCK relay is latched.
Firstly... motor turning half turn or 1 full turn on coin switch is normal.. it has latched your credit and now waits for you to start the game.
Make sure all contacts on LOCK relay are as they should be when activated.
When you press START it goes through the Credit Unit ZERO position switch... make sure these contacts are touching.. use a DMM You should see the credit go down one if this is working
.. also Ball Count ZERO postion and 2nd COIN relay... if the credit wheel goes down by one then all ive written so far is working correctly... if not... you have a fault on one or more of these relays... OR.. START switch is dirty.. could be as simple as that
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Welcome to the technical world of EM's - Once you solve this problem you will breeze through any problems with the Capt Fantastic. :lol
Unfortunately if there is 1 wire off or a dirty/open or closed switch in the start up sequence it wont operate fully.
Is there any scoring at all when activating slings/drop targets etc ?
Suggest you put it on freeplay http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#free (http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#free) & follow the startup sequence http://www.pinballaustralia.com/startupW.htm (http://www.pinballaustralia.com/startupW.htm)
Keep the updates coming
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Check the coin switches mounted in the door. If one of the switches is stuck in the "on" position it can create problems such as this.
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I'm not at home at the moment, but have been backwards to the pinball machine all afternoon. It's been daunting, but things start becoming clearer after I read things a few times and activating the relays by hand to see what things do.
Retropin, I went through your list, but still no Eureka moments. From memory, I need clarification on a few things and will post a diagram later to see if your descriptions are the same things I'm working on. I got a bit of light sandpaper and gave the start button switch a light sand, but it didn't make a difference. Also wondering if this is ok to use or should I be cleaning the contacts another way?
Haha the technical world of EM indeed. Another time where I've thought to myself "do I need the stress of someone else's machine?" Hopefully I don't have to ring the guy up and say it's in the too hard basket....
Coin switches seemed ok from memory, but when I was checking them last night, I accidentally had one switch locked on and the motor kept turning until I realised the switch was pressed on.
Still wondering about that start button. The credit unit turns fine when the coin door switches are activated, but if I start a game manually with one of the relays, the ball does not kick out. I can play a game if I flick the ball out with my finger, but the ball trough doesn't detect the ball when it drains. The score reels don't move at all during this time, but the playfield lighting changes to indicate scoring has changed. As I said previously, no chimes either.
Finally, are there any specific safety warnings for working on these machines? If I'm activating relays with the power on and playfield up, I only touch the plastic and one hand in my pocket. I got a zap when I tried to remove a jones plug this morning with the machine turned off, but power still turned on at the wall.
Cheers!
Adam.
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With the machine turned off but still on at the wall you have 240V inside.. be very very careful. The Jones plugs will be " hot".. you should NEVER touch these unless the game is unplugged.
Relays you are OK with.. will give you a tingle and wake you up... good thing about AC is that you WILL feel it and instantly pull away... DC not so lucky, it doesn't sit on the outside of the skin... has the potential to still kill you but you wont feel it
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Thanks for the advice. A nice wake up call this morning then. I love pinball, but don't want to be the guy that they say "at least he died doing what he loved...."
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Here's the diagram I've been following from the Pinrepair guides.
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index1.htm#top
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To Retropin:
yes, credits add ok, but start button does nothing at all. Once machine is powered on, the LOCK relay is definitely latched. I've turned the machine on and off a few times and definitely latches and the switch makes a connection where it is supposed to.
When I press START, nothing happens as I said. I then go round the back of the machine and look at the Williams coin unit (referred to in my previous posts as the stepper). This clicks into action if I press a coin door switch and the reel goes from nothing to 1, 2, 3 etc. etc. indicating that there are credits for a game to start. Unfortunately, the start button won't start a game. The coin unit also clicks into action if I press the top most switch together. With the machine turned on, I was doing this with a piece of cardboard....didn't want to get zapped a second time in one day.
Retropin, could you please explain the Ball Count ZERO position and 2nd COIN relay a bit more in relation to the diagram I just posted?
I might have to call it a night tonight. Thanks all.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Good luck Adam always wondered what you'd look like with permed hair lol
Peter
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Good luck Adam always wondered what you'd look like with permed hair lol
Peter
Thanks, Peter. I can always count on you in these intense pinball situations to lighten the mood. Now that is a real hot tip! Lighten....hot tip. Get it?
@@*
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Haven't let this beat me. Going to focus on the switches tonight. Will also follow the Williams startup sequence found online:
"When the start button is pressed, the credit unit is decremented. This
is done through the credit unit zero position switch and the 2nd coin
relay (and the ball count zero position switch).
The end of stroke (EOS) switch on the credit unit decrement coil will
energize the coin relay.
The coin relay will trip the game over relay.
The coin relay will energize the reset relay. The score motor will run.
The reset relay will energize the ball count unit reset, through the
score motor.
The reset relay energizes the 2nd coin relay latch and game over relay
latch coils.
The reset relay will energize the score reset relays, through the score
motor.
The score reel reset relays will zero the score reels, through the score
motor. The score motor will continue to activate the score reset relays
until all the score reels reach the zero position.
The reset relay activates the bonus unit coil until the bonus unit zero
position switch is activated.
When the bonus relay drops out, the outhole relay is energized through a
different bonus unit zero switch and score motor switch.
The outhole relay will run the score motor. The bonus unit will step up
once. The ball will be kicked to the shooter lane."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/aPWKCw3N1_I
Cheers!
Adam.
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You have fun with that won't you.
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You have fun with that won't you.
Thanks for your supportive words, Blair! I'll forgive you though. The pinball care package was much appreciated yesterday despite Peter's jokes about two men alone in a garage.
Went out for dinner tonight and couldn't help myself. Back into the machine. Was focusing on the Game Over Relay and Reset Relay tonight. The Game Over Relay looked ok and then I moved to the Reset Relay.....somebody over time has wound a very thin piece of wire in the middle piece of the switch closest to the player at the front of the machine. It was dangling in the bottom of the cabinet now. I decided to move it back and make contact so that both piece of metal would touch. I turned the machine on and with credits on the reel, I hit the start button. BAMMO! The machine fired into action and then the motor run. This was the first time the start button had worked for me. It kept going, so I turned the machine off. I noticed that the disc has worn off the switch.
Another small EM victory!
Cheers!
Adam.
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Sounds like you are doing a good job with it mate. Good on you for having a crack at it.
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Nice work Adam those EM's are complicated things. Just be careful not to end up like this guy. %.%
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/18/py3yryda.jpg)
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Will try not to turn myself into the dude from Ancient Aliens with the crazy hair!
What happens if the contact has worn off a leaf switch? Is there a fix or does the switch need to be replaced completely? At the moment, have only found a relay switch in stock at Marco's.
Cheers!
Adam.
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You need to replace the leaf and it needs to be the correct size. Myself or one of the guys will be able to help you out there. As a temporary fix though... get a few strands of wires and push through the hole where the contact button was. Then twist together on the end of the leaf switch and solder the tip so wire and leaf switch are one.
This will make the leaf switch operational again so you can continue working on the game and sort out anymore faults while waiting for a proper replacement to arrive in the post
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Nice read,
Well done Adam sounds
Like your making real progress with it.
i have a williams em in my garage which i havent touched. Too many projects. I may get your advise once i am ready to do something with it.
Good luck with the fix.
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Thanks, Retropin. Hopefully I'll get time after work tonight to work on Hot Tip again.
Dan, would be happy to drive out and check out the EM when you start work on it. By that time I should have more understanding of the operation of an EM. It's been a slow process getting my head around it, but it's been rewarding me each day which is good.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Thanks for the offer Adam.
There is always something to learn with pinball machines. Never a dull moment thats for sure.
I think to myself sometimes, "Rocket Science would be easier!"
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Another busy night tonight, but managed to squeeze in a bit of time with Hot Tip. Focused on the Reset Relay and tried to wrap the wire around the switch leaf closest to the far right of the picture (yellow wires). It seems like the disc should be making contact at rest. When the wire was attached, I pressed the start button and the machine jumped into action and changed from "Game Over" on the backglass to "1". It did not shoot out the ball. I'm guessing this did not occur as when the coil was activated, the switch was out of alignment somewhat and couldn't make contact with the disc it was pulling against (if this all makes sense?).
Can anyone please tell me the best way of replacing or working on these switches? Is it a case of unscrewing the whole relay from the base of the cabinet? Also wondering where the best place would be to replace these switches?
Cheers!
Adam.
pictured: Williams Hot Tip (EM) Reset Relay switches.
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The wire wrap how I said it will work on the shorter leafs.. the longer ones have to have it going round one side.
The logic relays are a bit difficult to work on... if its in the middle somewhere then you have to unscrew from the base. The leaf you need to replace should be unsoldered already.
The whole thing pulls apart once the side screws holding them together are undone.. You have to be VERY careful here as all the Bakelite insulators may come apart and fall off... if this happens its a real bugger getting them all back again.
So keep the whole stack together with some narrow masking tape.. wrap around once on the Bakelite insulators.. then with a scalpel cut the tape where you need to break the stack... this allows the stack to split where you want it and keeps the 2 halves together.. you might have to prise apart with a blade.. sometimes these things can be tough to split. Inside the mounting holes there MIGHT be a long white nylon insulator to prevent the screw from touching any of the insides of the switches... if this is the case it can be real hard to split them and you have to separate the Bakelite stacks from the insulator... make sure you keep the order they are in... lose this and you have a real headache on your hands... more than likely though you will have lots of brown insulator tubes.
Once you've done all this, you can slot you new switch in... put the stack back together and screw back in place.. make sure the screws that hold the stack are nice and tight... solder your new switch and away you go.
Or.. you can keep the wire and solder job in place if it seems too difficult.. no harm done here and its nothing I haven't done myself. I have several hundred leaf switches here but did I have the exact one for a GTB I own?? Nope and the solder tab had snapped off right at the Bakelite insulator. So the wire to this leaf switch is soldered to the very edge of the leaf.. game works 100% and although not the best solution, its the best I could do at the time. After a while the fix becomes permanent because it worked well.
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Ok, mammoth night on Hot Tip. So very very tired...
I focused on the Reset Relay tonight and the idea of soldering anything on that leaf switch or even wrapping wire around it seemed hard. I unscrewed the relay and even then, it didn't move far due to all the wiring soldered on to each switch. I screwed it back in and thought that the only possible solution was getting a brand new switch.
I left the machine for about half an hour and come back again. I decided to slightly bend the leaf back into place. After a few tries, it seemed straighter than it had been. I turned all the power back on and fired up the machine. This time, the start button worked without the piece of wire. Hooray!
In four days, I have got the credit unit working and now the start button. I was happy, but also disappointed that the ball still did not kick out into the shooter lane. I spent the next few hours reading and going back and forth to the machine. I noticed that the player unit is badly gummed up from what looks like hardened grease. I started to try and figure out how to pull that apart, but the task was too big, so I had to abandon that for tonight.
I did some more experimenting on the Reset Relay switches and decided to get my trusty bit of wire and put it around a suspect switch that didn't look like it was making solid contact. I fired the game up, but it still acted as normal and nothing different happened. I removed the wire once again.
It was time for bed, so I decided to lower the playfield. I turned the machine on and pressed start. It ticked over from Game Over to "1". I flicked the ball out with my finger and this time, the flippers worked and I was able to have a bash at the game. The chimes also worked and now the score reel is working. When the ball drains, nothing happens. I turned the machine off and on and this time it goes to Game Over without me having to flick the relay switch by hand. When a game is started, the score reel also tries to reset. It takes a few presses of the start button to fully reset to zero though.
This machine has a heap more work to do on it, but I'm guessing it has more life in it than it has seen in many years. I now have to work out why the outhole isn't ejecting the ball. It feels so close!
Cheers!
Adam.
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Are you sure that the switch on the ball kick out is making contact when the ball is in place?
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Pretty sure I checked this, but will check again.
After doing some reading, I will also check the bonus unit and the bonus unit zero position. Where is the bonus unit located? Not the same as the Match Unit?
Cheers!
Adam.
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Didn't get very far last night, but the problem has now been centred around the Player Unit in the backbox. It is all seized up with hard grease and will have to firstly pull it apart and clean it so that everything runs smoothly again. Have been reading that if this isn't working freely, the game won't operate.
I also had another hit of the ball and the GI lighting died. Something more to fix on the game now.
Cheers!
Adam.
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It's now the weekend again and in between digging up the front yard today, I was in the garage and trying to get Hot Tip working. Pulled the Player Unit apart (the gunked up greasy bits) and cleaned all the grease off so it now ran smoothly. Also adjusted the spring. Put everything back together and despite the Player Unit working better, the ball is still not being ejected from the trough.
The wires are connected to the switch and the switch is making contact when there is a ball there. Doesn't make any difference if I press the switch with my finger.
Any suggestions from here?
Cheers!
Adam.
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Now we need this part of the schematics...
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I have the schematics in front of me, but it's like reading French. "Oooh, that word is familiar.......the rest of it, not so much!"
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If you can find the OUTHOLE SWITCH , scan the area and post here, we can tell you where to look
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Here's the outhole section.
Thanks,
Adam.
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I would start here first.
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Yep.. start at the switch as Oldpins suggests... it goes through your Bonus Unit.... known problems here already?
After that id be looking at the OUTHOLE RELAY... double switch here.. needs to be making contact with one side when coil isn't actuated and then the other when it is.. should only be touching one side at a time... give this a clean and make sure contacts are good
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Thanks for your help, guys.
Another day in the garden, but will no doubt be back and forth to the pinball machine.
I checked the bonus unit and all wires seemed to be attached securely and if I move the wheel by hand, the bonus lights cycle on the playfield. If I start a game, the Bonus Unit will reset back to zero ok.
I have noticed that when the start button is pressed, the machine resets score reels and the bonus unit and before everything stops, the Coin Relay releases and then finally the Reset Relay.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Just a thought, hows the tilt switch??
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Wow, so frustrating now. I'll bet it is something obvious and I just can't pinpoint the problem.
Checked the Tilt Relay and the Outhole Relay and to me, I can't see anything that is obviously wrong. Checked all wires are soldered on and gave the contacts a light sand to get any black off them.
Will continue to look at the startup sequence and the schematic.
The only thing I haven't done is checked the outhole coil by taking the apron off. Have tugged on wires underneath playfield and can see that they are on the coil, but it wouldn't hurt to check properly.
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I might be able to give you a hand. Two heads better than one. Give me a call
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I might be able to give you a hand. Two heads better than one. Give me a call
Have had a few nights break from this machine. Will hopefully look at it with new eyes when I work on it next. Every spare moment seemed to be consumed with getting this machine kicking out a ball.
Would love your help, Dan, next time you're in town. Two heads are definitely better than one when it comes to pinball I reckon. We can have a few games of Metallica to sweeten up the deal. haha
Cheers!
Adam.
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I might be able to give you a hand. Two heads better than one. Give me a call
Have had a few nights break from this machine. Will hopefully look at it with new eyes when I work on it next. Every spare moment seemed to be consumed with getting this machine kicking out a ball.
Would love your help, Dan, next time you're in town. Two heads are definitely better than one when it comes to pinball I reckon. We can have a few games of Metallica to sweeten up the deal. haha
Cheers!
Adam.
Not a problem, may be in town friday from 4:30-6:00pm .
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Sounds to me like a wire has fallen off the outhole coil, or it has gone "open circuit".
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Thanks!
Will take the apron off tonight and check the coil. Let's hope it's one of those head slapping moments.
Cheers!
Adam.
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It's the new year and I'm back onto Hot Tip after the Christmas holiday madness. Have been sweating it out over Hot Tip for the past week on and off. Re-soldered wires that had fallen off and was hoping this would fix my problems.
The outhole coil is still not firing. Pressing the ball trough switch manually does nothing at all. I have reset all the stepper units manually at their starting positions, started a game by pressing the start button and the ball still does not kick out. I have pressed the outhole relay manually by hand and the drop targets reset, but nothing else happens. I have also pressed the tilt switch under the playfield manually by hand and it does nothing. I've checked all the solder connections on the outhole coil, the ball trough switch and the tilt switch by hand and can't see anything out of the ordinary here. I'm a bit lost at the moment. The bonus unit also seems to be moving freely and resets to zero when the start button is pressed if I movie it to other positions by hand.
Thanks,
Adam.
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I recently had a similar problem on my Gulfstream (Williams EM) .
Ended up being a dirty connection on the Jones plug where the playfield plugs into the playboard (the board on the bottom of the cab that has the score motor, transformer and relays
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Just reseated the Jones plugs and gave them a quick scrub with a wire brush. Problem remains. Still no life in the outhole kicker. I also checked the wires to make sure they were all soldered on and nothing was hanging loose.....
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First zap after 5 years- you're doing well!
I still remember my first zap on Christmas lights when I was a boy. It almost brings a tear to my eyes!
Carefull cause zaps can kill! Get a 5w 120ohm resistor and put it on a test lead, attach to ground and then probe before touching. It's a bit crude and can give you a surprise but it's better than getting zapped.
Z
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Recheck the score motor - Manually rotate the score motor (Power off of course)& check all switches are closing & opening as per cam position.
Also check all score reel switches are open when at 0
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Im no expert but my skylab had the same outhole problem. after removing the apron i found the solenoid had jammed in the out position. flicked it back and now it works. i hope this might be of some use.
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Just checked the score motor. Had the lights off and the first switch on the left has a major blue/green spark before it stops. There is also a spark on the switch second from the right. I used a business card to wipe through the switch contacts, but nothing changed when I started another game. Am still yet to check the score wheel switches are open when at 0.
I manually pushed the plunger in and out of the outhole solenoid with the game turned off and it moved freely. Gave the wires another tug and still on there tight.
I'm a bit apprehensive to do too much on my own (especially because it's not my machine) with the switches as I've read the horror stories from EM n00bs where it works worse than when they started. Dan (Riverina Pinball) has offered to come over and work on it with me one afternoon in the next few weeks.
This is starting to get frustrating. Why couldn't it be a 90s DMD??? haha
So far: reset all stepper units to zero. The credit unit now works when I press one of the coin switches and the credit wheel increments. I can press the start button and it goes to ball one. Ball does not kick out. There was a time when I could press the start button and I could play a game by kicking the ball out manually by hand, but at the moment, the flipper buttons work rarely and when I do hit the buttons, sometimes they drop out instantly. I think this could also be part of the problem.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Just looking at the schematics. May be worth checking all contacts on the 'GAME OVER' Relay. Not sure whether this has been mentioned.
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Just had a quick check of the Game Over relay before heading to work. It pulls in, but the plastic piece at the back of the coil with the two solder points on it seems to have snapped in half and it's all wobbly. Might be time for a brand new coil and also clean the contacts?
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Just had a quick check of the Game Over relay before heading to work. It pulls in, but the plastic piece at the back of the coil with the two solder points on it seems to have snapped in half and it's all wobbly. Might be time for a brand new coil and also clean the contacts?
That's only the connection to the coil and so long as the wire is still soldered on to the 2 lugs, the coil will function OK... you need to check the contacts with your DMM and make sure that when they are open, they are open and closed when closed
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I would clean/file all sus or bad contacts. I dont know em s but all switches/contact would be considered high current and prone to pitting/corrusion/wear.
I am Not experienced in ems.
Just a thought.
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I haven't cleaned anything extensively as I didn't want to make the machine worse than it was. Will wait for you to come over, Dan and get some tips from you first.
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With everyone's advice in mind and the particular relays to pay attention to, I started to go through the Williams startup sequence and checking all the switches and wiring to see if I'd missed anything. I got to the "10c Relay" and tugged on the wires and one of the wires come loose. It seems like it had been poked through the metal hole in the leg of the switch instead of being soldered on. I turned the machine on and pressed start and machine seemed to operate the same even without the wire touching. Mightn't have time to solder it on tonight, but something else to cancel out.
Cheers!
Adam.
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A loose wire that has come away from its solder joint but retains its position is one of the hardest things to find on an EM when fixing them. I try to never tug at the wires as a fix solution and certainly don't advise it but often.. its the only way to find a fault sometimes.
Took me a year to find one once...LOL
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Just checked the score motor. Had the lights off and the first switch on the left has a major blue/green spark before it stops. There is also a spark on the switch second from the right. I used a business card to wipe through the switch contacts, but nothing changed when I started another game. Am still yet to check the score wheel switches are open when at 0.
I manually pushed the plunger in and out of the outhole solenoid with the game turned off and it moved freely. Gave the wires another tug and still on there tight.
I'm a bit apprehensive to do too much on my own (especially because it's not my machine) with the switches as I've read the horror stories from EM n00bs where it works worse than when they started. Dan (Riverina Pinball) has offered to come over and work on it with me one afternoon in the next few weeks.
This is starting to get frustrating. Why couldn't it be a 90s DMD??? haha
So far: reset all stepper units to zero. The credit unit now works when I press one of the coin switches and the credit wheel increments. I can press the start button and it goes to ball one. Ball does not kick out. There was a time when I could press the start button and I could play a game by kicking the ball out manually by hand, but at the moment, the flipper buttons work rarely and when I do hit the buttons, sometimes they drop out instantly. I think this could also be part of the problem.
Cheers!
Adam.
Remember besides tugging & cleaning the contacts,make sure they are opening & closing when they should, especially around the score motor switches -very easily bent out of adjustment when checking other stuff in the cab & under the cab.
Keep at it, you will get there & be surprised & excited when you solve it $#$
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Haha "don't tug the wires." This was the reason I was scared about using a file/light sandpaper on the switches. You learn something everyday. Well, have found one wire loose on 25c relay. This is the coin relay that is mentioned in the startup sequence?
When I first started posting on this issue, I had just gotten familiar with all the Williams EM relays and stepper units. In the past few weeks, it seems like I have had to learn it all again because I've forgotten a lot of things over Christmas. It will probably be one of those lightening bolt moments at the end when everything works....until the next EM comes into the house and I throw my arms up in the air.
Out of interest, how much is a non-working EM like this worth? It could come up nicely if the contact/Mylar was removed from the playfield and the machine was given a good shop and detail.
Cheers!
Adam.
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I can repair most any EM pinball that has not run in many years in about one to three hours, using this systematic approach. On the other hand, using the "fix just what's broken approach" usually takes me twice as long! (And I end up having to back-track and do the systematic approach anyway.)
I tend to agree with this approach from Clays Pinball Repair guide. The best way is to go thru the complete machine systematically. You may think it will take forever but once you start you get thru it rather than chasing your tail.
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Success!!!! $#$ (kind of....).
Just got home and decided to bend the loose wire on the leg of the switch as tight as I could (until I soldered it properly). Turned the machine on and pressed start. The score motor spun continuously and the Coin Unit stepper continuously clicked and wouldn't stop. I turned the machine off, flicked the Game Over relay latch manually and wound up a heap of credits on the credit wheel in the head. I also moved the Coin Unit by hand off zero and then put the playfield down and the ball back in the trough.
I turned the machine on again and noticed Game Over on the backglass was lit. I pressed start, the machine did its startup/reset sequence and this time the ball flung into the shooter lane and my jaw dropped. This is the type of thing that keeps me going. I had a game and the ball drained. It didn't kick out again. I kept pressing the start button and the ball would randomly kick out every 5th time or so. I decided to turn the machine off and call it a night.
We're getting somewhere! Time for that systematic approach.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Proper connection mate and you may well have a home run... good news!
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And I'll bet you're all thinking "Finally, couldn't stand another 5 pages of this! It's like pulling teeth." Hahaha.
Thanks for all the help and support. I could get my EM wings yet. Will hopefully solder the wire with a clear head tomorrow.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Sounds like you're close Adam .
I'm starting to lose count of how many EM pins I've had now :lol , (I think its 12 ?) but have to agree I've found that the systematic approach works best (ie a full mechanical overhaul) .
Even the youngest of these games is turning 37 this year and most you will come across have not been serviced in a long long time , if ever.
Plus, once they are running they need to be played regularly or gemlins will resurface . *%*
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My main concern is getting the machine working and testing it for a few weeks and then sending it on the bumpy ride out of town and it develops issues again. I suppose I should just worry about getting it working first. Hehe
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One step forward and two steps back....just finished soldering the wire on the 10c relay and put the machine back together. Turned the power on and pressed start. No ball flung into the shooter lane ans no life from the flippers. I kept pressing the start button and once it kicked the ball into the shooter lane....then the flippers died again.
Back to square one...there's a glimmer of hope this time. The outhole solenoid is known to work. The next thing I'm focusing on are the stepper units. I've cleaned one of them, but at the moment, the coin unit and ball unit are not moving freely. I've found a good YouTube instructional video that shows me how they should be operating, so that's handy.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Gday Adam .
I've just reread the whole thread and had a look at the schematic.
If you look towards the bottom of the schematic you will see the flipper coils . See the power to those coils is from the 'red' feed. If you follow the power feed up the right side of the schematic you will see it passes through a normally closed switch on the tilt relay (red wire on one leaf, red/yellow/white on the other) .
With the game unplugged from the wall , check with your meter that switch is closed . If that switch is open you will lose power to the flippers and the top eject hole relay, right lane target switch etc .
Also, further up the power feed it looks like there is a switch on the reset relay that should also be normally closed (red/yellow/white wire on one leaf, blue yellow white on the other) .
If that is open you lose power to everything down the chain towards the flippers including the ball release coil .
It should be closed when the reset relay is deenergised ie. with the game unplugged from the wall and when the reset relay part of the reset sequence is completed)
Lastly , just above that switch on the power feed there is a switch on the game over relay that should also be closed when G.O relay is deenergised (blue.yellow/white wire on one leaf, black on the other) . G.O relay will be deenergised when ball count is > 0 (or game is unplugged from wall.)
If either the switch on the game over relay or the switch on the reset relay is not closed, there is no power to the flippers or any coil between the flippers and that particular switch.
Cheers
Dave
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Also, for the ball release coil to work reliably it needs a clean earth via the switch 4a on the score motor and make/break switch on the outhole relay (specifically the side that has grey/green wire on one leaf and yellow on the other.)
You can check this earth by leaving the game unplugged,
a) manually move the score motor until switch 4a is closed then
b) put one lead of your meter on the yellow wire side of the outhole leaf switch, and the other lead on earth lug of the ball release coil (the coil under the apron.)
Then operate the outhole relay by hand and look to see you have good continuity and under 1 ohm resistance.
In my EM experience a dirty earth can cause lots of problems .
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Many thanks, Dave!
Will work through your advice next time I'm working on the machine and sort out that power issue. I'm willing to bet it's due to that dodgy switch on the Reset Relay where someone had tied a small bit of wire around it. I tried to straighten the switch out, but maybe it's not making proper contact?
Thanks,
Adam.
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Probably won't get a chance until the weekend now to completely follow all your testing, Dave. Tonight I was able to quickly test the Reset Relay and it didn't seem to be the switch I suspected.
What I did discover was that when I reset the Coin Unit, Player 2 was lit on the backglass. I turned the machine off and manually put the Coin Unit on Player 1. Looking at it, it is REALLY bending the switch down on the Coin Unit. I turned the machine back on and pressed start. It buzzed differently to before and went through the reset sequence and kicked the ball out. The flippers also worked. When I turned the machine off again and pressed start a second time, the machine seemed to lose power if it wasn't initially on Player 1.
The Coin Unit doesn't reset freely and will need to be pulled apart and cleaned properly. Is the power issue switch related or wiper related? Out of interest, what can you use to clean those wiper contacts?
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Gday Dean .
It looks to me like the coin unit is mostly just related to number match circuit for each player and player number light on the backglass. It also controls which number ball is in play depending on how many players are in the game at the time.
You can use a green scotchbrite pad to clean the wiper fingers and the copper tracks.
Before pulling the coin unit apart be sure the unit is in the reset position and mark a couple of the wiper fingers so you can put it back together in the right position, otherwise you would be in a world of pain *%*
The flippers (and probably other coils) losing power will be switch related
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Hi all,
While I was waiting to get some multimeter assistance with Dan (Riverinapinball), I decided to go back through Hot Tip and check switches from the beginning of the startup sequence until the point where everything stops. The machine seemed to be doing different things every time I turned it on and seemed to be getting worse.
To cut a long story short, I managed to get the flippers constant power by discovering that a switch on the Game Over relay wasn't making proper contact. I adjusted and cleaned the switch and now the flipper buttons have power!
Now when I start a game, the bonus unit resets at the appropriate point in the startup sequence, but the Outhole relay doesn't seem to energise and reset the drop targets or kick out the ball. It will reset the drop targets if I manually press the relay. Previously, if I kept pressing the start button, the ball would kick out randomly, but this has stopped completely now.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Might be worth checking all contacts on the 'coin relay' !
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Thanks to Dan on Tuesday for detouring after work to come and check out Hot Tip and have a couple of games of Metallica Pro with me. Especially on such a hot day! We went over the operation of an EM and Dan checked out some of the switches. Still no further, but it's a new start.
Oldpins, I had time tonight to go over Hot Tip and what you suggested. I went over the coin relay, made sure all the switches were making proper contact and gave them a clean. With the machine on, I also checked operation and manually pressed the relay. It acted the same.
I reset all the stepper units to zero by hand to make sure they are all at zero. The Game Over relay is latched. I press start and the machine goes through its paces, but does not kick the ball out and the drop targets don't reset. It is getting stuck before the Outhole Relay is activated. I can press the Outhole Relay manually and the drop targets reset and with Dan checking the outhole kicker, the coil actually fires.
Tonight, I manually pressed the bonus unit switch with a bit of cardboard when the machine was turned on and this also reset the drop targets and fired the outhole kicker. I now need to find the missing link in the startup sequence. The flippers work, can manually kick the ball out, but when it drains, nothing registers on the switch.
So close!!!!!
Adam.
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I think that as part of the reset sequence the game over relay should trip , which in turn will energise the reset relay .
Drop targets not resetting during startup is indicative of the reset relay not energising , possibly because the game over relay is not tripping . I have had problem with latch/trip on my Williams EM's before, sometimes needed a slight adjustment .
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As part of the reset sequence the game over relay should trip , which in turn will energise the reset relay .
Drop targets not resetting during startup is indicative of the reset relay not energising , possibly because the game over relay is not tripping . I have had problem with latch/trip on my Williams EM's before, sometimes needed a slight adjustment .
When the game over relay is latched you should have 'Game Over' lit on the BG and no power to most of the playfield coils , I think.
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I have been reading this thread with interest. I hope you sort it out in the end. Sounds like there are many electrical problems. One problem would be hard enough to find, 2 even harder and many, a nightmare! Just curious to know if you are using a volt meter for testing or just visual inspection of relays?
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Hi DSB,
I was visually inspecting the relays initially, but had riverinapinball help me out this week with the multimeter on the switches.
I found a switch (furthest to the back of the machine) on the Reset Relay wasn't making proper contact. I have no adjusted this. When I press start, the game goes through the startup sequence, resets the score reels and now ejects the ball. I can play ball one, but when the ball drains, the ball is not detected in the trough. I can activate the switch multiple times by hand, but nothing happens. It stays on ball one.
Can anyone help with this issue now? When the ball drains, the Outhole Relay is not activated.
Cheers!
Adam.
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As part of the reset sequence the game over relay should trip , which in turn will energise the reset relay .
Drop targets not resetting during startup is indicative of the reset relay not energising , possibly because the game over relay is not tripping . I have had problem with latch/trip on my Williams EM's before, sometimes needed a slight adjustment .
When the game over relay is latched you should have 'Game Over' lit on the BG and no power to most of the playfield coils , I think.
Yep, the game over relay now latches every time I turn the machine on and Game Over is lit on the backglass.
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One step closer. Well done Adam.
Is that Ball Stepper working freely? I thought it might need some attention, not sure?
Dan
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Heya Dan,
the Ball Unit Stepper is actually moving freely (goes back and forth ok). The Coin Unit Stepper needs attention aka cleaning and there's a stepper in the head that also needs more cleaning. Can't remember the label for that one.
Cheers!
Adam.
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GDay Adam .
Check the switches on the ball index relay
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I'm not an expert on EM s but I can read relay logic schematics. If I am correct you can start a game and play one ball but when the ball enters the trough nothing happens? If so does the machine go through its bonus sequence or does the bonus RE energise?
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Out hole schematic.
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The bonus RE should energise first via the bonus stepper unit and then via the out hole switch. I would check the bonus unit zero position switch. As the schematic says below the wires should be Red-Black and green on the bonus unit. Probably hard the check the wire colours I guess. It should be closed when the ball is in play. When the ball is in play the out hole switch should have power waiting for the ball to hit it. It then sends power to the bonus relay.The score motor should run when the bonus RE is energised. After the bonus unit steps to zero it transfers power to the out hole relay. That's how its drawn anyway. I hope this helps. Last note; the M.B contact on the score motor should be closed if the motor is not running which sends power to the bonus unit (I am assuming it is.)
Dan
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Away from the machine at moment, so going by memory here.
Absolutely nothing happens when the ball drains at the moment. You can move the trough switch by hand and nothing happens either.
If I move the bonus unit under the playfield by hand, the bonus unit will reset when you press start for a new game. The bonus unit moves back and forth freely.
The ball is kicked into the the shooter lane at the start of a new game now, but after hitting the ball around and scoring points, nothing happens when the ball drains. It just stays on ball 1.
Will double check tonight.
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If I move the bonus unit under the playfield by hand, the bonus unit will reset when you press start for a new game. The bonus unit moves back and forth freely.
That sounds positive but you need to ensure that zero position contact on the bonus unit is making a closed circuit when a ball is in play to the out hole switch. This would be easy to check with a multimeter. Or you could easily make your own. && 4 x 6 volt globes wired in series makes a 24 volt indicator, twist one end around the black common of the bonus RE and the other around the green wire on the out hole switch. This will prove if power is coming from the bonus unit to the out hole switch during a game. Maybe someone with a more detailed knowledge of the bonus unit can guide you to the zero position switch.
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Home late tonight and only got a short time to tinker with Hot Tip.
My first issue tonight. Turn the machine on, press start, the machine does its thing, but doesn't reset drop targets or shoot ball to shooter lane. If I press the left flipper button once (or sometimes I have to do it multiple times), the Outhole Relay then kicks in and the drops reset and the ball is kicked into the shooter lane. I went back through the last lot of posts and it said that I needed to ensure the zero position contact on the bonus unit was making a closed circuit. I saw that this was visually closed, but when I pressed the left flipper button, I could see a spark coming from this switch. I noticed that all these switches had been bent and I'm guessing that an owner from years gone by has been "adjusting" these switches. I adjusted this switch and now when it is in the zero position, the drop targets reset and the ball is kicked to the shooter lane.
Once the ball is in play, I knock down a few drop targets, but once again the ball isn't recognised in the outhole. Another issue I noticed, if the bonus unit isn't in the zero position (if the switch is open), I press the start button on a game and nothing resets. I have to manually move the bonus unit to zero and press start before a game will start. The mechanism is fine, but it is not resetting at the start of a game.
I haven't tested anything with a multimeter yet. Is there something I should be investigating with the multimeter the next time I work on the machine?
Cheers!
Adsam.
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Home late tonight and only got a short time to tinker with Hot Tip.
My first issue tonight. Turn the machine on, press start, the machine does its thing, but doesn't reset drop targets or shoot ball to shooter lane. If I press the left flipper button once (or sometimes I have to do it multiple times), the Outhole Relay then kicks in and the drops reset and the ball is kicked into the shooter lane. I went back through the last lot of posts and it said that I needed to ensure the zero position contact on the bonus unit was making a closed circuit. I saw that this was visually closed, but when I pressed the left flipper button, I could see a spark coming from this switch. I noticed that all these switches had been bent and I'm guessing that an owner from years gone by has been "adjusting" these switches. I adjusted this switch and now when it is in the zero position, the drop targets reset and the ball is kicked to the shooter lane.
Once the ball is in play, I knock down a few drop targets, but once again the ball isn't recognised in the outhole. Another issue I noticed, if the bonus unit isn't in the zero position (if the switch is open), I press the start button on a game and nothing resets. I have to manually move the bonus unit to zero and press start before a game will start. The mechanism is fine, but it is not resetting at the start of a game.
I haven't tested anything with a multimeter yet. Is there something I should be investigating with the multimeter the next time I work on the machine?
Cheers!
Adsam.
Gday Adam.
The bonus unit should count down to 0 at the end of each ball (and thus the 0 position switch will then be closed). From what you have described its not doing this . The bonus unit reset coil needs to be energised to allow the bonus unit to count down (and therefore score bonus value at the end of each ball). If you have a look at E 14 on the schematic you will see that the bonus unit reset coil is energised when a switch on the bonus relay is closed (which it should be when the bonus relay is energised) and a make/break switch on the double bonus relay is closed (which it should be when that relay is not energised)
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To add to what godolddays has said: The Bonus unit should count to zero when the ball hits the out hole. Also went the ball is released into the shooter lane the bonus unit should step up once at that time. If it doesn't power will not be transferred to the out hole switch and so nothing will happen when it is pressed. Turn the machine off, manually set the bonus to zero, turn the machine on and start a game. See if the bonus unit steps up once when the ball is released. If it does then test for 24 volts at the out hole switch to the black common. If no power there may be a bad contact at the bonus unit. It sounds like you are close to sorting this. keep up the good work! ^^^
P.S I can't see the flipper switches will be related. Maybe its the vibration causing a bad contact to make is my guess.
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From memory....the bonus unit does indeed step up once. This is when I place it in the zero position, turn the machine on and then start a game....then I manually hit a few drop targets, the machine dings and the score reels spin, then the ball drains and it just sits on ball 1....
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From memory....the bonus unit does indeed step up once. This is when I place it in the zero position, turn the machine on and then start a game....then I manually hit a few drop targets, the machine dings and the score reels spin, then the ball drains and it just sits on ball 1....
Excellent. Do the same thing but re-examine the zero position switch on the bonus unit. Wires red-black and green. This should close when the unit steps up. After that the only thing that can stop power going to the bonus relay is the out hole switch. Can you post a close up picture of the zero position switch of the bonus unit?
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Just got home and instead of mowing the lawns, couldn't help myself and had a quick tinker with Hot Tip.
Fixed the zero position switch last night and tonight I had to re-adjust the other switch nearby so now when I turn the machine on, it will no reset the bonus unit back to zero. Still no action on the ball trough switch though....getting closer!!!! Will do more when I come back inside.
Thanks guys!
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The trick is now knowing if you have power (24 volts) at the out hole switch (green wire) when the bonus unit steps up. This is where a volt meter would be really handy. If you do and close the out hole switch it should energise the bonus relay and go through the bonus count down.
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Yep, got my meter. Could you please tell me which setting and which wires I need to test?
Thanks,
Adam.
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Depending on your meter. Set it to volts ac or Vac or Vac 50 volts or anything higher than 24 volts AC. You want to test for 24 volts or near enough. To keep things simple put one probe on the black wire of the Bonus RE "coil" which probably loops from coil to coil. It may be easier to wrap a bit of scrap wire around the meter probe and tape it up then wrap the other around the black of the Bonus RE coil. This will save having to grow a third arm and a lot of swearing! Now test your meter is working. Touch the other probe on a solid yellow wire which you should see at most relays. This is the main feed and should be powered up all the time. If the meter is working you should get 24 volts or close to on the meter. You will then need to set the game in motion as you have been and after the bonus unit has stepped up put the other probe on the green wire at the out hole switch. You can check both wires at the out hole switch if you want. If you have power on one leg of the switch press the switch an see if you have power one the other side. If you have no power at the switch at all you need to test both sides of the bonus unit zero position make break switch (green and red-black wires.)
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Set my multimeter to volts AC and was getting around 31 volts with black lead on thick black wire of Bonus Relay and red lead on thick yellow wire of another relay. Tested this on a few yellow wires and was still getting around 31 volts AC.
Started up a game, pressed a few drop targets down and then put black lead on thick black wire of Bonus Relay and red lead on green wire of outhole/trough switch. Only got 5 volts AC.
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A good start! ^^^ The green wire you tested on the out hole is the same wire which leaves the bonus unit make and break zero position switch. Test the this green wire at the bonus unit (most likely no power there as you have already tested at the out hole switch.) and then test the red-black wire which is the common of the zero position make break switch (hopefully power here). Let us know what you find.
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$#$
BIG SUCCESS!
Before you even posted, I was checking out the green wire on the Bonus Unit Switch. I started to scratch my head. "That looks like it's sitting in mid air". I got a bit of cardboard and pressed it down and also pressed the outhole switch. The outhole fired after I pressed the switch for the first time!!!! I adjusted the switch until I got it just right. Turned the machine on and had several balls that drained and then went to the next ball.
Wow, what a journey for the last few months. Not out of the woods yet as there are few steppers that need cleaning/adjusting, but glad to have gotten this far.
Thank you all for your help!
Cheers!
Adam.
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#*# #*# #*# $#$
Awesome Mate! Congrats! One less issue. One problem at a time is the way to go. Sometimes problems will be related and sometimes not.
Cheers Dan
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Nice job Adam. ^^^
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#*# $#$
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Once again, thanks to everyone in the thread for helping out. Very much appreciated. Must have seemed like I was going round in circles for a while, but got there in the end. The first day the machine arrived and I actually saw what an EM looked like inside, I wanted to give it straight back. Especially when I changed all the fuses and it didn't make an ounce of difference.
After I got over the initial shock, I said I didn't want to let it beat me and I don't think it has beat me. I'm now able to start a game, play a ball and when the ball drains, it passes the ball back to the shooter lane....now my issues are: the game doesn't end and it jumps to player 4 (on a one player game), but I can see a number of stepper units need cleaning/adjusting.
What's next on the agenda:
* Player unit needs cleaning/adjusting
* Coin unit needs cleaning/adjusting (zero position switch is bent down HARD. Looks like it's missing a peg).
* re-rubber the machine
* new leg levellers
Cheers!
Adam.
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Great News, Adam.
You must nearly feel like you have just done a course in EM repair and passed!
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I got a pass, Dan, but I'm hoping to get a credit. Haha
It's a shame I don't have that big garage now. I'd be telling you to rush your EM over before I forget everything.
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I got a pass, Dan, but I'm hoping to get a credit. Haha
It's a shame I don't have that big garage now. I'd be telling you to rush your EM over before I forget everything.
Yehh, pass with credits once you fix mine!
Space is a problem for most collectors. Me included
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Back onto Hot Tip tonight and was trying to figure out why the player 1 ball was draining and then jumping to player 4. Discovered the credit unit stepper switch was not missing any parts, but at zero position, the switch was below the bar/notch instead of above it. I discovered this issue on the pinrepair guide. I can now play a complete one player game of Hot Tip. Pretty cool!
My next aim: get the machine working in a 2,3 or 4 player game. From lots of observing and testing tonight, the credit unit is not progressing when the coil is fired. Looks like I'll have to remove the armature from the coil and give it a good clean like I did in the backbox for one of the stepper units.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Sounds like you are almost there. Well done Adam.
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Sounds like your on a roll now! :lol Well done
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Just spent time with the credit unit and discovered that it is not the arms that connect to the coils, but the cog itself seems greasy/slow and doesn't reset fast like the stepper next to it. Does anyone have any tips on cleaning the cog itself? Do you have to unscrew the big nut to remove the cog? Regardless of the tension of the spring, it still seems slow to reset.
Cheers!
Adam.
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The most thorough way is to dismantle the unit and remove all traces of grease/gunk with metho. These units were designed to run unlubricated. It is best to check all units in the machine that have moving parts as when they bind they cause all sorts of weird issues.
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So close now, so very close.
Pulled the coin unit apart and cleaned all the grease out of the moving parts and coil sleeves. Put everything back together and the cog still had drag on it. I tightened the spring, but no luck. I ended up loosening the nut on the wheel that was holding everything together. Another success.
So, the coin unit increments and releases freely. The game now goes up to three players, but not four. Adjusted the leaf switch on the coin unit. The game now allows four players.
Final issue: if you select a 2-4 player game, it keeps missing player 2 and jumping to player 3. Player 2 does not exist at the moment.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Have you checked the player unit is stepping correctly from player 1 to 2.
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Went to check out the player unit tonight and turned machine on to have a game and now the drop targets are continuously resetting. To be continued....
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6th drop target is snapped off at the base, hence the constant resetting. What a pain!
One player game now malfunctions and jumps to third player on second ball. Time to check out that player unit. Switches are all bent out of shape also.
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The only way you are going to sort this machine out once and for all is do everything from start to finish. Just seems like you are chasing your tail at the moment fixing bits and pieces. Everything needs to be pulled down and cleaned by the sounds of it, that way when you give it back know to the guy he won't ring you up a week later to say it isn't working again......If you know at I mean ;)
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Credit unit - dismantled and cleaned. Now moves freely, up and down.
Coin Unit - dismantled and cleaned. Now moves freely, up and down.
Ball Unit - moves freely, up and down.
Bonus Unit - moves freely, up and down.
Player Unit - needs cleaning, switch(es) bent out of shape. The final frontier.
Tonight's reset issue seems to be with the 6th drop target. It has snapped off at the base. Going to have to pull the drop target mechanism apart to see what is making contact for the drops to keep resetting.
Player jumping from one to three to four I assume is the issue with the Player Unit?
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SOS!!!!
Hi all,
back onto Hot Tip.... in our last episode, I could play a game and every so often, the drop targets were found to be resetting twice before a ball due to switches on the Bonus Unit not making proper contact.
Yesterday I decided to get back onto finalising the machine and adjusted switches with the switch adjuster tool by giving them a slight bend. I have now spent two afternoons adjusting and re-adjusting switches and cannot play a single game due to either switches not making proper contact to eject the ball or switches being too close that the drop targets continually reset until I have to turn the machine off. I am now at a point of total loss to understand why it's doing what it is doing. Can someone please point me in the right direction?
I have included a picture of how I think the switches should be at zero position and position 1. Can anyone see what I'm doing wrong?
Thanks,
Adam.
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Ok, edited both pictures the same way with Preview on Mac OS X as this machine doesn't have Photoshop and the second image seems to be stretched and flipped. Re-uploading.
It is still stretched, but you get the idea....
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Just had a close look at these switches with the playfield up when the start button is pressed.
At zero position the switch on the far left of the picture is open, but I can see a spark arcing between the switches and the stepper continually resets. If I move this switch further apart, the machine steps up, but keeps going to infinity and has no stopping point.
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At zero position the tab moves across and pushes this switch open. When the stepper increments the switch MUST close.. if it doesn't then the machine will continue to "search" for this closure.
So.. at ONE step on the stepper this switch must read closed with a DMM ..NOT SIGHT.. use your DMM.
Just a little tip.. if the switches are working, there is no need to adjust them. You are asking for trouble doing this.. and it looks like trouble you got.
Aint broke.. don't go fixing
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When Hot Tip arrived, it wasn't working due to the switch not getting power and ejecting the ball to the shooter lane. I adjusted the switches to get it working.....so, technically, it was broken....I just re-broke it.
:-p
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When Hot Tip arrived, it wasn't working due to the switch not getting power and ejecting the ball to the shooter lane. I adjusted the switches to get it working.....so, technically, it was broken....I just re-broke it.
:-p
All is forgiven..
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All these switches have been bent by someone over the years and I thought I had re-bent them into place (then ruined everything again as stated before). Would it be worthwhile to replace switches with brand new ones to guarantee longevity? I have cleaned the switch that is arcing, but doesn't seem to have done anything. If a switch has gold contacts, if they are worn, can those also effect the switch?
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All these switches have been bent by someone over the years and I thought I had re-bent them into place (then ruined everything again as stated before). Would it be worthwhile to replace switches with brand new ones to guarantee longevity? I have cleaned the switch that is arcing, but doesn't seem to have done anything. If a switch has gold contacts, if they are worn, can those also effect the switch?
Well yes, but if the switch is arcing then it has been activated elsewhere.. if its arcing and not closing then the coil that controls the relay isn't pulling in. So the switch isn't the problem.. control coil is.. or.. the mechanics of. Make sure plate pulls in and releases OK
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I went through the machine and manually pressed on all the relays and put all the steppers back to zero. Started a game and still getting the continual reset on the Bonus Unit. I adjusted the switches on the far left of the image where they were arcing and then started a game with the playfield up.
Everything was fine again. I put the playfield down and turned the machine on and the score motor continually turned and I wasn't able to start a game. I turned the machine off and lifted the playfield and no score motor turning, but once again I could start a game normally. Had to put pin repair to rest for the night, but very strange...
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Not really strange.. its all too common actually and can leave you scratching your head. OK.. first you need to ascertain that you have no scoring switches touching when PF is down.. you should know as the game will continually score. If this is the case then a switch is adjusted too finely and you need to find it..LOL
Or.. as is a common problem with Williams EMs.. the wire loom from the PF goes to the back of the machine and up into the head. There should be a bracket at the back of the cabinet that holds this in place. Sometimes when you put the PF down this cable loom rests on the relays far back RHS and prevents the game from starting properly. Ive had this on at least 3 WMS EMs and is well worth checking out
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Back onto my biggest challenge again tonight, Hot Tip. Haha
I pulled the Jones plugs out of the head and turned the machine on with the playfield down, but the score motor continued to run.
I put all the plugs back in and turned the machine on again. Score motor still runs continuously. I then put the Bonus Unit back to zero and the score motor stopped. So, every time the bonus unit increments from the zero position, the score motor runs continuously. It's a switch!
At least I don't have to worry about something unknown in the machine.
Cheers!
Adam.
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If it is a switch, then start the machine with the PF down and the coin door open.. look inside the machine while the game starts to reset. The PF switch will be JUST touching and you should see the blue arcing, you might be able to do this with the PF raised slightly and pulled over the lockdown bar resting on a block.. this way you will know where the switch is rather than having to go through them all one by one.. do this and it will be the last one.. always is.. &&
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Yeah, before it was the wiring pulling in a relay and could see the sparks under the playfield.
I figured it out! Get ready to shake your head at me...
Spent two afternoons adjusting switches on the bonus unit and tonight I discovered it was actually the reset relay causing the dramas. One switch looked REALLY bent out of shape against the others. Straightened it out a bit and now all is well again.
I got the multimeter out to test the switches. To do this, is it the audible continuity setting and when it beeps, the switch circuit is closed?
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Yeah, before it was the wiring pulling in a relay and could see the sparks under the playfield.
Quite common on a WMS EM and always worth checking.. can also be the source of shorts blowing a fuse as the insulation wears through.
Yep.. when it beeps the switch is closed.. I hate to add to your pain here but check the switch with it closed and a piece of paper between the leaves also.. often a switch on an EM will be in parallel with a closed switch and your DMM will read the lowest resistance and so go through the parallel switch, so youll need to disable the parallel switch.. but in all honesty, only do this if it all tests OK and you still have the fault. I think you should be OK from here and its all pretty straight forward
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Finishing up work on Hot Tip now. It's time to go home and I need the garage space.
Have cleaned all the stepper units and got things moving freely. My last problem is having a multiplayer game. One player works perfect. Two to four players are problematic. It will keep skipping player two. So, if you select a four player game, you can only play three players as it keeps skipping player two.
When the Player Unit increments to player two, the "snow shoes" are not making proper contact and seem to be sitting in the middle of the contacts. Player three will light up on the backglass. If I move the disc slightly with my hand, player two lights up. If I let it go, player three lights up.
Can anyone offer any advice or a fix for this? It seems like the disc is out of alignment slightly, but I'm not sure how to re-align it as it is in a set position. Loosening and tightening the nut on the disc doesn't seem to help.
Thanks,
Adam.
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You should be able to adjust the disc.. can you post a pic?
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Heya,
the disc is fine on position 0, but when it goes to position 1, it is slightly out and player 3 lights up instead of player 2. I can move the disc with my hand to get it to player 2, but I'm not sure how to adjust it so that the 'snow shoes' sit exactly on the contacts instead of in the middle.
Have attached three images. First image is when the disc is at position 0, second image is position 1 (you may be able to see the 'snow shoes' sitting in between the contacts) and the third image is position 1 from the other side.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Image 2.
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Image 3.
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Any ideas, Gav?
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Just a guess but what happens if you undo that big nut and try revolving it to a point where all the contacts do what they need to be doing.
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Sorry... only just caught up with this thread. The 2 screws loosen and gives you about a 10mm play on the disc. Set it to any position other than zero and adjust so the sprung wipes sit on top of the contacts
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Hey guys,
I had already tried adjusting the nut, but what fixed it was what Gav mentioned. There is a screw at the base of the coil plunger that acts as a stop. I adjusted the disc to position 2, moved the disc to the exact location of Player 2 and then tightened the screw below the coil plunger.
I can now play a two player game on Hot Tip without it to skipping to Player 3. What a huge journey this has been. Time to give the game a clean up, new rubbers and then back to the owner.
My next project......Captain Fantastic!
Thanks again!
Adam.
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Good to hear its all working. This thread has sparked an interest in working on EMs for me. They looks fun to work on although frustrating at times I guess.
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Excellent news Adam.
Well Done!
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Well done Adam, looking forward to your Captain Fantastic thread.
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Excellent news Adam. ^^^ you would be surprised how much you take notice of switches. and how things work on an em if you actually get over the fear of pulling one right down and re asembling it. the hard part for me was to pull apart a working pin.
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Haha I promised myself I wouldn't make an epic Captain Fantastic thread asking countless inane questions this time.....but, I will try and share the problems I encounter and how I fix them.
%.%
Hot Tip arrived in horrible condition and I can't believe it's actually working now. That scary moment when I lifted the playfield and saw all those relays....then discovering more in the head. Looking back, it was a good introduction to EMs and how everything works. Yes, all stepper units need to be clean and moving freely.
Cheers!
Adam.
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Excellent news Adam. ^^^ you would be surprised how much you take notice of switches. and how things work on an em if you actually get over the fear of pulling one right down and re asembling it. the hard part for me was to pull apart a working pin.
All the repair sites said to be careful with the stepper units. Most said to leave the springs alone. After pulling a few of these apart, I got more comfortable with them and knowing how they should go back together. Stepper units aren't as scary now....switches and tearing down a working machine. Whoah! Will see if I get more comfortable with that when I start working on my own EM. Hot Tip was scary because someone else owned it and I didn't want to make it worse than how it was when it arrived.
Another positive out of all of this...I didn't care much for EM machines (a bit before my time), but I really take notice now when I see them on eBay. Will definitely miss Hot Tip when it leaves the house.
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Well done mate... you need an EM game so you can learn EM games.. each different manufacturer has its own little quirks and twists. Williams I reckon can be the most troublesome mainly because of the positioning of the main relay banks and the tight switches. Now you've done a WMS you are set for the Bally Capt fant.. this should be a bit easier as Bally EM are easier to work on also.
Im also putting my Capt Fant back together soon.. so we could have 2 side by side threads here for a cracking title
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Gday Adam .
Great to hear Hot Tip is working 100% now .
You've had quite an introduction to EM's thats for sure .
I haven't had any yet that were as in as a bad a shape as it sounds like Hot Tip was (bent switches etc)
I've found that if you have the manual and schematic you can troubleshoot any EM .
In my experience Williams manual/schematics are the best laid out and have the most info
Cheers
Dave