The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: Caveoftreasures on October 20, 2014, 02:30:52 AM
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I wanted to ask anyone who has real technical experience with sited machines and weak flippers ?
Why does it seem that sited machines have gutless flippers regardless of if a machine is new, close to new, or 6 plus months old ?
Does a machine being turned on 24 hrs a day create heat that affects the coils or circuits etc, or are the flipper strengths on Sterns or other games turned down ?
The brand new games at TimeZone Surfers are played to death everyday. The machines are played constantly for 8 to 12 hrs a day. So even after just a few weeks at 7 days a week, have the flipper mechs been used so many times that they now need adjustment or replacement parts or what ?
My home machines from brand new in box have powerful and snappy strong flippers, so why do the exact same machines on site have gutless flippers ?
The same scenairio seems to occur with other makes and models as well.
Why are we seeing gutless flippers on machines less than a month old when they have had very high traffic ? Is it just high traffic and its normal or is it a design fault or heat or flipper coil strength in programming, if available etc.
I don't understand why games so new have weak flippers ?
Any technical reasons n suggestions would be welcomed....
I don't want anyone to Stern bash or xyz manufacturer bash without at least throwing in some technical factual answers please.
Thanks in advance !
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Probably not something that used to get noticed so much in the old days when nobody had machines at home.
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there are a few variables that come into play here.
dirty ball and P/F (it doesn't take long for the balls used in new machines to lose their shine, no shine means ball moves slower)
the pitch that the machine has been setup at.
binding flipper bushes (I have come across a lot of new machines with little or no gap set between the bush and flipper)
the flipper components on new machines just don't last as long as earlier machines, I have seen a lot of ex sited machines that are only 1 or 2 years old that need flipper kits.
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Coil sleeves dirty and perishing flipper rubber, maybe.
Easy fixes for the newbie without getting technical and a basic maintanance protocol, other wise find a tech who will check coils, transistors ,EOS, flipper bushings, return springs etc etc.
Don't forget to polish your balls and clean the ball trough when you clean the play field!
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I am not a fan of Sterns flipper system. A single coil winding that is "pulsed" when in hold mode creates a lot more issues than the pennies saved by doing it this way saves I believe.
But what would I know.......
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I am not a fan of Sterns flipper system. A single coil winding that is "pulsed" when in hold mode creates a lot more issues than the pennies saved by doing it this way saves I believe.
But what would I know.......
Im not familiar with Stern flippers at all ( surprise surprise), but im assuming there is no "holding" winding on the coil and the pulse is switched quicker than the flipper can drop due to no current through the coil?... Prevents overheating of a single winding I guess but can see that its probably a fine line being trodden here and the coil would probably suffer from continued use.
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I am not a fan of Sterns flipper system. A single coil winding that is "pulsed" when in hold mode creates a lot more issues than the pennies saved by doing it this way saves I believe.
But what would I know.......
if you dislike the operator then hold the flipper button in for a few minutes on a new stern. 9 times out of 10 it will kill the mosfet and blow the flipper fuse.
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I am not a fan of Sterns flipper system. A single coil winding that is "pulsed" when in hold mode creates a lot more issues than the pennies saved by doing it this way saves I believe.
But what would I know.......
if you dislike the operator then hold the flipper button in for a few minutes on a new stern. 9 times out of 10 it will kill the mosfet and blow the flipper fuse.
Islamic pinball terrorism. Lol %.% %.% ^&^
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So a basic design saves on maintainence but is it at the expense of flipper power is what I want to know.... ??
Is a Stern flipper as strong as a B/W or other technically, and if so , or not , why technically ??
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I am not a fan of Sterns flipper system. A single coil winding that is "pulsed" when in hold mode creates a lot more issues than the pennies saved by doing it this way saves I believe.
But what would I know.......
if you dislike the operator then hold the flipper button in for a few minutes on a new stern. 9 times out of 10 it will kill the mosfet and blow the flipper fuse.
Those guys at PAPA must be repairing their flippers all the time. Most players there tend to hold several balls on one flipper for minutes on end. Not my style of play though, I like to bash the balls around and not trap them forever.
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Sometimes a small value ceramic resistor, say 1-2 ohms 5 watt is put in series with the EOS switch at the coil to reduce the power.
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So a basic design saves on maintainence but is it at the expense of flipper power is what I want to know.... ??
Is a Stern flipper as strong as a B/W or other technically, and if so , or not , why technically ??
I think it comes down to regular maintenance. Look at the speed of machines like ACDC straight out of the box. The coil power can be turned down from memory but nothing beats regular cleaning of the playfield, balls and trough as others have mentioned plus the flipper rubbers play a big part as well. Fresh rubbers make a world of difference as well. Even if the rubber is rotated around the flipper bat, if they are too stingey to replace the rubber, will help. You can get two or three cycles out of the rubber this way. Even just cleaning the flipper rubber will help a little to get rid of the black crap which becomes almost sticky and reduces bounce off the rubber.
Keeping the flipper plunger clean and coil sleeve will assist as well.
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Best bet is to completely rebuild the flippers.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers
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Best bet is to completely rebuild the flippers.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers
Welcome to the forum Vid, really enjoy reading your guides over on Pinside.
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Flipper power and reaction is certainly directly linked to the mechanical condition of the mechanism regardless of age of machine and design, mechanical or otherwise. If the machine is more than a few years old chances are the flippers need some sort of attention even if only new sleeves.
The OP is also asking about new or near new machines and the flipper power. This question is directly related to the electronic design of new Stern machines flipper system. It started with DE machines and has been problematic ever since. Why they have stuck with it is anyones guess?
Put simply the flipper coil is switched by a MOSFET. The EOS switch has nothing to do with the current flowing through the coil - it simply tells the CPU what position the mechanism is in.
At flipper button press, the MOSFET is switched on (or pulsed depending on the operator setting in software to determine flipper power) and the coil pulls in - the micro looks for a closure of the EOS within a certain time frame and if it sees it the coil power is reduced by rapidly switching the MOSFET on and off THROUGH THE SAME COIL. If the EOS closure IS NOT seen in the allocated time the micro "assumes" the mechanism has made it and that the EOS switch is faulty and switches to low power regardless.
All of this jiggery pokery creates a very complex set of currents flowing through the coil and without a doubt creates a lot of heat in the coil and huge switching currents in the driver MOSFET (which is known to fail frequently - why that is a surprise I have no idea, it shouldn't be).
The failure of these driver transistors is well known and it comes as no surprise to me that they fail. I can't see how any engineer with any idea of the "real world" could ever have thought this was a good idea in the first place. This is the sort of mad design you see university graduates that don't know which end of a soldering iron to hold come up with.
I am NOT having a go at Stern, far from it. I do think it is long overdue for them to get a "real" electronic engineer on the job however and get rid of this stupid idea - enough is enough IMO!
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Flipper power and reaction is certainly directly linked to the mechanical condition of the mechanism regardless of age of machine and design, mechanical or otherwise. If the machine is more than a few years old chances are the flippers need some sort of attention even if only new sleeves.
The OP is also asking about new or near new machines and the flipper power. This question is directly related to the electronic design of new Stern machines flipper system. It started with DE machines and has been problematic ever since. Why they have stuck with it is anyones guess?
Put simply the flipper coil is switched by a MOSFET. The EOS switch has nothing to do with the current flowing through the coil - it simply tells the CPU what position the mechanism is in.
At flipper button press, the MOSFET is switched on (or pulsed depending on the operator setting in software to determine flipper power) and the coil pulls in - the micro looks for a closure of the EOS within a certain time frame and if it sees it the coil power is reduced by rapidly switching the MOSFET on and off THROUGH THE SAME COIL. If the EOS closure IS NOT seen in the allocated time the micro "assumes" the mechanism has made it and that the EOS switch is faulty and switches to low power regardless.
All of this jiggery pokery creates a very complex set of currents flowing through the coil and without a doubt creates a lot of heat in the coil and huge switching currents in the driver MOSFET (which is known to fail frequently - why that is a surprise I have no idea, it shouldn't be).
The failure of these driver transistors is well known and it comes as no surprise to me that they fail. I can't see how any engineer with any idea of the "real world" could ever have thought this was a good idea in the first place. This is the sort of mad design you see university graduates that don't know which end of a soldering iron to hold come up with.
I am NOT having a go at Stern, far from it. I do think it is long overdue for them to get a "real" electronic engineer on the job however and get rid of this stupid idea - enough is enough IMO!
you have hit the nail right on the head #*# :lol