The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: MartyJ on October 31, 2008, 05:26:57 PM
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Hellooo,
Well my LAH prject has being coming along nicely - PF now 95%, new flippers, rubbers, globes and all is going great except - for the ripper coil. The coil I got with the machine was broken (plunger etc). I bought a new kickback assembly and installed it. No good. Nothing on diagnostics. Hmm, well I put the other coil back in, same thing. After hours of searching, it looks as if the F9 fuse keeps blowing on startup. According to Marvin's guide this is the fuse for the kickback I don't know where to look now?
The second issue is with my left flipper. Brand new everything - coil+kit. The right hand one works great, but for some reason the left one is very slow to return on the way down. I've had it apart back together probably 4 times and I still cant work it out. !*!
Anyhelp for a tired Marty would be appreciated!
^.^
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You need to get the schematic for the game, and locate what actually drives the coil. Could be a short in either the CPU or PPB, check the transistors, pre driver transistors, diode and resistors in the circuit.
OK had a quick glance at the schematics, check Q1 on PPB and check Q13 and Q7 on the CPU. These are the transistors that drive the coil. Hope it helps. LAH is a fun game to play.
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Yep - I agree.. first you need a copy of the manual with schematics.
You could follow the wiring back to the PPB - I think it will be the transistor labeled Q13.
Schematic will prove that definitely. The coil should be a 23-800.
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Yep - I agree.. first you need a copy of the manual with schematics.
You could follow the wiring back to the PPB - I think it will be the transistor labeled Q13.
Schematic will prove that definitely. The coil should be a 23-800.
Thanks guys....This is now crossing into the slightly harder side of repairs!...
Can a dodgy transistor cause fuses to blow or should I be looking for an exposed wire etc...The fuse blows as soon as it powers up each and every time...The coil is definately correct. Even with the coil unplugged (from under the PF) she still blows.
Would I be better to find new boards or take them to someone if I can't find the prob?...
BTW the flipper issue sorted. It seems I may have fitted the spring to the coil stop around the wrong way. A bit of fiddling and all good there...
BBTW the diode from DSE worked a treat on the leaf switch too!
Thanks again....almost there!!
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Keep going mate - nearly there....
The fact the fuse blows straight away probably means the transistor is bad.. Schematics are the best bet - but you could have a look around to see if there is anything obvious.. Even a visual check of the PPB board could reveal a clue.
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I've removed the PPB board out. I cannot see anything on the front that looks terrible...I have had a look on the back for dry solder joints but cant see any obvious. Now I understand I need to check the Q1 transister...I have read from marvins guide that you set your DMM to diode, black on the metal bit and red to either outer legs.
Now I've only got a cheap-ass DMM from bunnings (projecta brand). .The readings should be between .4 to .6?
Thanks for your support too!
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Yep - MM is set to diode and then check Q12, Q13 and Q14... I THINK Q13 is the transistor responsible !
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OK, both boards are out.
On the CPU - I'm getting
The Q13 is reading 504/540 on the DMM (which I don't know whether is actually .504 etc)
The Q12 is reading 501/543
The Q11 is reading 504/546
On the PPB
The Q1 - strange readings all over the shop
I measured the Q1 with red on lug, black to legs...So I'll pop down buy some TIP36C and see how we go!
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If it was Melbourne cup I would of been on Q1 from the start.
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If it was Melbourne cup I would of been on Q1 from the start.
Lets just say I'm impressed!
I just bought a slightly better DMM along with some new TIP36c's (not cheap).
I will put the new one in and see how we go.
The bad news is I've lost my label I had on the wires for the coil in question. How can I tell which is which (one is purple with yellow band & the other blue with black band). The purple is thicker gauge..
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Good Work boys...
I'm working off the LAH manula from IPDB - No schematics - So this should be verified by Mick - as he has schematics...
On page 32 of the manual - the "Ripper Kickback" has a White/Violet and a Violet/Yellow.. Violet is purple obviously... The thicker one is Purple Yellow..
The thicker wire is the power wire. This should go to the "unbanded" side of the diode on the coil. Check any other coil to confirm..
At this stage - wait for Mick to reply - He can tell you definitely from the schematic.. I would not take "my word on it " %.%
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OK the vio/yel goes on the banded side of the diode. Straight from the schematics and confirmed on my machine as well.
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OK the vio/yel goes on the banded side of the diode. Straight from the schematics and confirmed on my machine as well.
OK....unplugged the coil from under the PF and switched on. Same thing, blew the fuse and I tested the Q1 again...reading .00.
Is it time to start looking for a new PPB?
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Marty,
Basically - you have a short somewhere on this circuit. make sure that the diode is on the coil first of all. with coil removed - the feed wires arent twisted together are they?? ( i have to ask).
personnally, if it were a shorted transistor, id expect the coil to fire and hold, this then burns out the coil and blows the fuse.
mate - no need to go buying a new board, this will be bloody simple, but these things are only simple once youve found them.
look at the schematics for this coil, follow them through. somewhere along the line, you have a connection that shouldnt be there. trace the wires from the coil right back to the board connectors, any insulation that is worn?? particularly when the looms go round coil brackets, this can wear through the insulation and short 2 wires.
Check the connector with your DMM, anything that has low resistance where it should be high?
ive never got a reliable reading from marvins diode test on transistors, but its probably safe to assume that it isnt this seeing as youve replaced the TIP36 ( it was meant to be a TIP36 yes??).
try having the PF in the upright position also header box open and the lights off. keep an eye on these as you turn the game on - sometimes its best to do this with an extension lead that you plug in while looking at the machine. any blue sparks??? if so - THIS is where your short is.
Check your board for any solder splashes that may be there from previous working.
Somewhere, something is touching that shouldnt be, you just gotta find it!
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Marty,
Basically - you have a short somewhere on this circuit. make sure that the diode is on the coil first of all. with coil removed - the feed wires arent twisted together are they?? ( i have to ask).
personnally, if it were a shorted transistor, id expect the coil to fire and hold, this then burns out the coil and blows the fuse.
mate - no need to go buying a new board, this will be bloody simple, but these things are only simple once youve found them.
look at the schematics for this coil, follow them through. somewhere along the line, you have a connection that shouldnt be there. trace the wires from the coil right back to the board connectors, any insulation that is worn?? particularly when the looms go round coil brackets, this can wear through the insulation and short 2 wires.
Check the connector with your DMM, anything that has low resistance where it should be high?
ive never got a reliable reading from marvins diode test on transistors, but its probably safe to assume that it isnt this seeing as youve replaced the TIP36 ( it was meant to be a TIP36 yes??).
try having the PF in the upright position also header box open and the lights off. keep an eye on these as you turn the game on - sometimes its best to do this with an extension lead that you plug in while looking at the machine. any blue sparks??? if so - THIS is where your short is.
Check your board for any solder splashes that may be there from previous working.
Somewhere, something is touching that shouldnt be, you just gotta find it!
OK, it looks as when I thought I unplugged the coil I had unplugged the wrong plug. I had the coil wires around the wrong way. I've changed this, put a new diode on coil. I've put a new TIP36C back in again. Before I start everything else you suggested, can this cause the same problem ?
Otherwise I will track the wires back. I read somewhere (I could be wrong) that the power is piggy backed off other PF devices? Is this correct? And should I trace both wires back?
THanks heaps for your suggestions!
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If the diode had gone short - yes this can cause the fuse to blow.
How many fuses do you have???
Try the PF upright, header box open trick. if she blows again - you may well see where the short is by the blue spark.
good luck
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I've got a couple more fuses and each time it looks like it kills the Q1 as well. I will do a visual again (unclip the loom and see)....
I have traced the blue/black wire (which is power I think) back and I cannot see anything obvious. The purple / yellow looks although it goes to the crane...
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I've got a couple more fuses and each time it looks like it kills the Q1 as well. I will do a visual again (unclip the loom and see)....
I have traced the blue/black wire (which is power I think) back and I cannot see anything obvious. The violet / yellow looks although it goes to the crane...then to magnets!
OK, the blue/black wire looks to be clean.
1st boot, the fuse blew, but thankfully not the transister this time! (note crane was unplugged and also coil..) The thing I did notice (in the dark - no sparks) however there was a humm at first power up - sounds like coming from magnets as I had my head right next to them.....It wasn't the speakers as I've heard these a million times and I am use to it starting up without the fuse working. Definately different...
So, I removed the 3 fuses from the magnets, and unplugged both ends of the loom from the small PCB next to magnets....NO FUSE BLOW.
Is the violet / yellow a common earth for the 50v things (I'm shooting from the hip here so please correct me)....If there is a drama with the magnets can this be causing issues...
(http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/6939/rimg0380qq3.th.jpg) (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rimg0380qq3.jpg)(http://img360.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Update:...I've bathed the aux PCB 520-5068-00 (rev A.) in isoprobl alcohol to clean it as it was covered in gunk. There are a few things - a couple of tracks have been jumpered but looks intentional and the end pin (one after the gap) on J2 is gone (dry). Could this dry joint be causing issues? If the magnets are not related to this issue at all then I'll have to take a deep breath and bat on.
Thanks again for everyones input....
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I need a schematic to go any further here...
... over to anyone with the schematic!
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I need a schematic to go any further here...
... over to anyone with the schematic!
I don't have one unfortunately and probably would struggle to understand it (being a bit noobish)....
Also, if someone is able to guide me as to how to measure transisters on these aux boards (ie red on metal lug or black and what values should be?). I don't think it would be as simple as one dry solder joint!
I found an additional dry joint on the middle transister as well. They look like they are a P20N010 (?)
But seriously, thanks to everyone for helping thus far.
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Ok, Ive got the schematic from Pinballfixers site - thanks mate!!
I dont have the manual so its a bit hard for me to follow whats going on here,
Let me get this straight - F1 keeps blowing, this is a 5A Slo Blo.
transistor that keeps blowing is Q1, this happens at power up, but you can hear a hum?
Now with your DMM set it to 200ohm setting ( this will probably be the least resistance value on it), check diode D21 on the PPB. It should read low resistance one way, switch the test leads over and you should get infinite ( will go off the scale) reading the other. if you get low both ways, this diode is short.
The feed in to Q1 is connector J8 pin 11, - out is J8 pin 12. make sure there is not a short across these. Also R19, put meter to a higher reading and you should get 220 Ohm ( or VERY close).
measuring resistors in circuit can be decieving though and sometimes you have to lift one leg.
Make sure TIP36C is in the right way round.
If you do all this and this checks out, then the circuit for this transistor is fine and we need to look elsewhere, but lets eradicate this first
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Ok, Ive got the schematic from Pinballfixers site - thanks mate!!
I dont have the manual so its a bit hard for me to follow whats going on here,
Let me get this straight - F1 keeps blowing, this is a 5A Slo Blo.
transistor that keeps blowing is Q1, this happens at power up, but you can hear a hum?
No its the F9 which blows instantly on power up - it is a 250v 5A Slo Blo. On a quick side note, I could not get an identical one from Middy's ie the wire in the middle looked different however it is a 250v 5A slo blo glass fuse
Now with your DMM set it to 200ohm setting ( this will probably be the least resistance value on it), check diode D21 on the PPB. It should read low resistance one way, switch the test leads over and you should get infinite ( will go off the scale) reading the other. if you get low both ways, this diode is short.
I'm not a whizz with the multimeter I set it to OHM changed the range to M. It read 1.184 one way, then .OL the other. Not sure if I did this right.
The feed in to Q1 is connector J8 pin 11, - out is J8 pin 12. make sure there is not a short across these.
Checked these, nothing obvious and looks OK.
Also R19, put meter to a higher reading and you should get 220 Ohm ( or VERY close).
measuring resistors in circuit can be decieving though and sometimes you have to lift one leg.
Yep, one leg sore back now...On k OHM setting read as .220 / .221
Make sure TIP36C is in the right way round.
Yes is identical to others.
If you do all this and this checks out, then the circuit for this transistor is fine and we need to look elsewhere, but lets eradicate this first
I tend to think it has something to do with the violet / yellow wire, which is used on crane (flashers I think) and the magnets. The humm on power up I am convinced is the magnets. Even with new TIP36C with magnets installed, fuse blew - even with coil unplugged and killed my new Q1. No sparks under PF, no obvious signs of a short / exposed wire although could be difficult to trace...
I removed fuse from magnets, unplugged both sides of the aux board - 520-5068-00 which violet / yellow goes into...Powered up - fuse fine nil blow.
I cleaned the aux board in a tonne of alcohol and observed 3 dry joints...Two on J2 plug and one on the middle transister. I have not put it back in again as I dont really want to blow another Q1. I am googling to try to find the transister values for the aux board (P20N10). The joints have been repaired. The board has been previously repaired as there are a couple of track repairs but they look clean..
Its becoming a riddle, but I am extremely grateful for your advise and the time you guys are spending to help me.
I have certainly crossed into territory which is new, but also exciting as I never thought I would be able to repair a board (well PPB only at this stage)
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Lets also test diodes 6, 8 and 16 on the PPB. You will need to desolder one side the diode to test.
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I'm a little fuzzy after a few beers, but did I read correct that the F9 fuse does not blow when the fuses are taken out for the magnets?
If so, suspect the transistors on the magnet PCB to be faulty. These things cop a hammering and are common to short.
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Lets also test diodes 6, 8 and 16 on the PPB. You will need to desolder one side the diode to test.
OK, I may have to do this tomorrow morning...The boss is getting a bit grumpy now being the 13hr I been working on it today &&
I found a wiring diagram for the magnet board too from AA.
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3448/magnetboarddiaqj8.th.jpg) (http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magnetboarddiaqj8.jpg)(http://img46.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
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I'm a little fuzzy after a few beers, but did I read correct that the F9 fuse does not blow when the fuses are taken out for the magnets?
If so, suspect the transistors on the magnet PCB to be faulty. These things cop a hammering and are common to short.
Correct!
The magnet PCB also had multiple dry joints...Do you know what the readings for the transisters should be & also whether black on metal lug or red!
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OK then we are getting somewhere.
The dry/broken joints from the constant vibration causes the transistors to short. These ones are little dicky to read, best just to change the 3 of them.
In the mean time, you can still play the game without the magnets. The original transistors for the magnets are 20N10L, but you can use IRL540N or 22NE10L as well.
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Well, there is no power to the ripper with this board removed. So playable I guess, but I havn't as yet (want to play in its full glory!)....
I read them with the black lead on the lug
1st one .306 / .328
2nd one .509 / .OL
3rd one .376 / .393
For the second & third ones I'm reading the outer feet on the underside of the PCB...
If these are suppose to be the same as the transisters on the PPB ie between .4 to .7 then they look a bit crook. Specially the second one.
Do you reckon DSE will sell them as I don't think anything else is open tomorrow?
Also - if these are replaced do you think this can cause the probems I'm having......??
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Marty,
Component is a Mosfet. Ive never been able to make out marvins guides to testing this kind of thing, so a check on a few others that are the same and then compare will tell you what the readings should be.
I doubt DSE will sell them, they hardly sell anything thats of any use component wise, but its worth a check.
20N10L or 22NE10L or IRL540 will do the job.
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OK clear head this morning. The magnet control board J2 pin1 is 50 VDC vio/yel and goes to PPB J7 pin 3. On the ripper kickback vio/yel 50 VDC also goes to PPB J7 pin 3. Here is the common source, the fault that you have is on the magnet control board, just order and replace the 3 transistors. Whilst you have the board out reflow the header pins with solder, test the resistors, diodes and the 74HCT273 IC. Thou I highly doubt anything other than transistors are gone.
You can get the transistors from here.
http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=17&pg=2
Like I said before very common for these boards to be faulty, anyone with a LAH should at least pull the board out and reflow the solder on the header pins and transistors as matter of prevention.
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OK clear head this morning. The magnet control board J2 pin1 is 50 VDC vio/yel and goes to PPB J7 pin 3. On the ripper kickback vio/yel 50 VDC also goes to PPB J7 pin 3. Here is the common source, the fault that you have is on the magnet control board, just order and replace the 3 transistors. Whilst you have the board out reflow the header pins with solder, test the resistors, diodes and the 74HCT273 IC. Thou I highly doubt anything other than transistors are gone.
You can get the transistors from here.
http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=17&pg=2
Like I said before very common for these boards to be faulty, anyone with a LAH should at least pull the board out and reflow the solder on the header pins and transistors as matter of prevention.
Awesome!. Thanks again guys. I will check Jaycar today (99% they dont have them) otherwise will order during week and update as soon as its done.
On a final note, I was reading about a 'mod' done to the GNR magnet boards to stop them locking on. Is this something that is advised once I get this problem sorted out.
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Jaycar have the IRF540 in stock. Will they work or does it have to be an L?
THanks
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# 20N10L
# 12N10L
# 22NE10L
# IRF530
# STP22NE1
# 19N06L
# NTE2987
# IRL540
Transistors are all similar and may work.
The L has a different amp rating, but could be OK.
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# 20N10L
# 12N10L
# 22NE10L
# IRF530
# STP22NE1
# 19N06L
# NTE2987
# IRL540
Transistors are all similar and may work.
The L has a different amp rating, but could be OK.
I grabbed them, they are IRF540N...
I wont put them in if they may do damage do anything else...I was reading another post on AA in relation to these as well:
http://www.aussiearcade.com.au/showthread.php?t=9863&highlight=P20N10
Given that there is an L on the existing mosfets I may hold off...unless someone else has actually used the IRF540N or can confirm they are safe!
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OK done some research for you, the replacement that you put in must be an L.
At least I've learnt something ^^^
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Yeh, not sure about the trigger for the "L"being logic and the "F: - im not sure. One thing is for certain - the IRF540 WILL NOT WORK unless you swap 2 of the legs over - the "gates"are in different positions,
However IRF540 has a slightly higher current rating
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Yeh, not sure about the trigger for the "L"being logic and the "F: - im not sure. One thing is for certain - the IRF540 WILL NOT WORK unless you swap 2 of the legs over - the "gates"are in different positions,
However IRF540 has a slightly higher current rating
For the sake of $12.00 its not worth the stuffing around as the L's are available locally. I will order some now and fingers crossed it fixes the magnets & the ripper coil!
Is this board the same as the one on the GNR and subject to the same noise issues?
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OK done some research for you, the replacement that you put in must be an L.
At least I've learnt something ^^^
OK, the IRL540's went in today in aux board (thanks for quick delivery MarkC)...The powerboard went back in with all new fuse clips, all back together. No fuses blowing on powerup...Magnets now coming on in diagnostics...ripper initially not working, replaced coil with spare and now 100% working. #*# #*# #*#
Thanks again for your expert advise and I can now put 3 x minor board repairs under my belt.
Machine is now 100% playable and I got to say what an awesome game. When those magnets kick in they are simply CRAZY!! The ripper is fantastic too. Wicked game..
Will have to try to source a replacement bottom assembly for crane as I am 99% sure it must be missing gear teeth as it has lost about 10% of its 180deg travel. I think this was an existing issue with the op putting some rubber on one end to make contact with switch.
Thanks again guys! Much appreciated.
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Hey well done ^^^
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thanks Marty
glad we had them in stock
mark
ps u get my email ?
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thanks Marty
glad we had them in stock
mark
ps u get my email ?
I did thanks Mark. I will speak with Ian today hopefully and pick up the paint on Sat....
Thanks again..
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Very pleased with the results Marty ! Good stuff from everyone that helped - especially Mick & Gavin #*#