The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => General Discussion => General Pinball Discussion => Topic started by: Caveoftreasures on September 28, 2012, 11:32:43 PM
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For general interest, STERN'S modern pinball machines, manufactured between 1999 and 2013 have produced a total of apx 55 game variations.
If you didnt know your Stern machines back to front, here is a list I have compiled for interest. Hopefully I havent missed any.
I have listed the title and year. Its good to see how STERN has evolved over the modern DMD years with many different and varied titles.
If I was to guess, STERN have probably produced a few thousand machines per title, and in some cases alot more. Perhaps they have made as many as 100,000 machines over the last 13 years, perhaps even alot more, given they export to around 30 countries.
Here is the list for 1999 to 2012 inclusive.
1999 Harley-Davidson®
2000-01 Striker Xtreme
2000-09 Sharkey's Shootout
2001-01 High Roller Casino
2001-06 Austin Powers™
2001-09 Monopoly™
2001-11 NFL
2002-01 Playboy® Stern
2002-08 RollerCoaster Tycoon
2002-11 Harley-Davidson® (2nd Edition)
2003-02 The Simpsons Pinball Party
2003-06 Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines
2003-12 The Lord of the Rings Stern
2004-08 Elvis®
2004 Harley-Davidson® (3rd Edition)
2004-03 Ripley's Believe It or Not!®
2005-01 Grand Prix
2005-02 The Sopranos®
2005-08 NASCAR®
2006-02 World Poker Tour™
2006-07 Pirates of the Caribbean
2007-06 Spider-Man
2007- Black Spider-Man™
2007 Dale Jr.
2007 Family Guy
2007-10 Wheel Of Fortune
2008-07 Batman The Dark Knight
2008-11 CSI
2008-04 Indiana Jones
2008 Shrek™ Stern
2009 NBA
2009 -02 - TV Series 24
2009-10 Lord of the Rings
2009-12 The Lord of the Rings (Limited Edition)
2010 Batman (Standard Model) Batman The Dark Knight
2010-01 Big Buck Hunter Pro
2010 Iron Man
2010 Iron Man Classic Non-Commercial
2010-08 Avatar
2010-12 Avatar Limited Edition
2011 The Rolling Stones
2011 The Rolling Stones (Limited Edition)
2011 Transformers™ (Pro)
2011 Transformers™ Autobot Crimson Limited Edition
2011 Transformers™ Decepticon Violet Limited Edition
2011 Transformers™ Limited Edition ("Combo")
2011 TRON: Legacy
2011 TRON: Legacy (Limited Edition)
2012 AC/DC (Pro)
2012-03 AC/DC (Premium)
2012-03 AC/DC Back In Black Limited Edition
2012-03 AC/DC Let There Be Rock Limited Edition
2012-08 X-Men Pro Stern
2012-06 X-Men Magneto LE
2012-06 X-Men Wolverine LE
Looking forward to the next 13 years of STERN production.
Whats your favourite few STERN machines ? !@#
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I think you are being a bit generous on the production numbers, "a few thousand of each title".
If we classify that list into A list, B list and so on, most of the B list titles and below would have a total production run of about 1200 units at most (produced once and then shelved forever).
As an extreme example, CSI and 24 both around 500 units each and 99.9% likelihood will never be run again.
I'll go further and say there is not one title on there that has cracked the 10,000 mark.
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Correct. I averaged it out at a few thousand per title cause some titles like Simpsons were close to 5,000 I am told, and others like LOTR, Pirates Carrabean etc also had very decent runs. Its hard to say really, but a few thousand averaged out is still probably close when you take the good with the bad. I am assuming it would be around the 100,000 mark , give or take 10 or 20 percent ?? (Only Gary Stern really knows the real numbers, and ofcourse no one has ever seen the real numbers printed for public consumption unfortunately).
But Stern Pinball have survived, made some great machines, which is the most important thing ofcourse.
Also, for interest, STERN export to the following Countries as at 2012.
Austria
Australia
Belgium
Canada
Chile
China
Czech republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Honk Kong
Hungary
Italy
Lithuania
New Zealand
Norway
Portugal
Republic Kazakhstan
Romania
Russia
Singapore
South Africa
Spain
Sweeden
Switzerland
Taiwan
The Netherlands
Turkey
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
Quite a good list of countries. Pinball reaches far and wide which is great.
I am told some of these countries are dealers for other countries located in their part of the world.
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Family Guy only saw 700 units produced. Shrek 500. I think LOTR was the first Stern game to top 4,000 units. So I would go easy on the assumed production numbers. If you look at how many Tommy games came out of the same factory, you realize they aren't doing that well at all. Basically they manage to stay in business, but there is a price being paid...
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Thanks for putting the list together, always interesting to know what they have been doing.
I have heard that the Iron Man Was around 1150, but not official - wish they would share there numbers. The only numbers we know are the LE's which are commonly around the 200-300
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I think it's sad that they don't do re-runs of games that had a short production run like Family Guy and Shrek. Do you think people would rush to buy these titles if they did a limited run like they are now doing with Tron? Maybe make variants to get people interested. With Tron, it would have been nice to know what you were getting before you ordered other than a few sketchy details and a picture of a translite.
Cheers!
Adam.
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They ran out of left over McDonalds toys for Shrek.. so no more to be made
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They ran out of left over McDonalds toys for Shrek.. so no more to be made
out of all the pinball company's to have survived Why did it have to be Stern? toys toys and more toys.
the least inventive pinball company, they are no bally williams as far as inventiveness of titles goes. how they survived is beyond me.
24? or CSI? come on, there is only 5 titles in that entire list that makes sense making, and yes acdc is one of them that makes sense.
i know allot of pressure rides on sterns shoulders as far as keeping pinball alive, but does it look to you that they arent even trying to be inventive???
I will say to cavey, it is great loyalty you hold towards Stern, and i can fully understand why you like them, and its for all the right reasons you support them as you understand, its the last real operational pinball company making pinballs. so i know my comments about stern seem a little personal. i dont mean them to be. my beef is purely with strens lack of innovation, i am glad that a company still operates but the more i look at sterns pinballs, or to be fair late stern pinballs, you can see how lazy they are. with out any real competing company against stern they seem to have no invovation to feed off.
what stern needs to do is look at what the best and over all most popular pinballs that have ever been made, sit down and study them, play them and figure out what it is people like about those machines, once they understand that, maybe they can start building not just good pinballs but awesome pinballs.
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out of all the pinball company's to have survived Why did it have to be Stern? toys toys and more toys.
It is easier and more profitable to make poker machines. The one-armed now no-armed bandits are raking in billions each year without a single toy in sight.
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To my mind, there are alot of excellent games in that production list that are far better players than alot of the over-rated later models of B/W.
But everyone will have a different opinion. I just try to look at the positive things Stern have done, because no pinball company is perfect ofcourse.
Stern have done something no other pinball company could do, that is STAY OPEN and producing. A monumental effort.
Recent offerings like AC/DC and X Men are excellent. Many in the earlier years are great games as well. There are many great players in that list.
Inventive is a hard one to talk about, because inventive means moving parts, and moving parts/toys/features need servicing and cost more to maintain. These days, inventive usually covers better dot matrix annimations and better audio with better gameplay n code. A game doesnt have to have a million bells n whistles to be a great player. The PRO machines are great value for money and are usually bullet proof.
I am glad STERN has done what no other company could do. Produce 3 or so titles on average per year for 13 years running. There is something in that list for everyone to enjoy.
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I think it's sad that they don't do re-runs of games that had a short production run like Family Guy and Shrek. Do you think people would rush to buy these titles if they did a limited run like they are now doing with Tron? Maybe make variants to get people interested. With Tron, it would have been nice to know what you were getting before you ordered other than a few sketchy details and a picture of a translite.
Cheers!
Adam.
TRON re-run is identical except the different translite. AMD did confirm that.
Maybe there were licencing maximums with Family Guy and Shrek. Both are excellent machines to my mind. Would love one of each when I win lotto.
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To my mind, there are alot of excellent games in that production list that are far better players than alot of the over-rated later models of B/W.
But everyone will have a different opinion. I just try to look at the positive things Stern have done, because no pinball company is perfect ofcourse.
Stern have done something no other pinball company could do, that is STAY OPEN and producing. A monumental effort.
Recent offerings like AC/DC and X Men are excellent. Many in the earlier years are great games as well. There are many great players in that list.
Inventive is a hard one to talk about, because inventive means moving parts, and moving parts/toys/features need servicing and cost more to maintain. These days, inventive usually covers better dot matrix annimations and better audio with better gameplay n code. A game doesnt have to have a million bells n whistles to be a great player. The PRO machines are great value for money and are usually bullet proof.
I am glad STERN has done what no other company could do. Produce 3 or so titles on average per year for 13 years running. There is something in that list for everyone to enjoy.
honestly they need to go back 20+ years to study a pinball machines innovation of the era, the machines that led to that boom in pinball of that era, they had less high tech equipment compared to today, but they were inventive enough to create fantastic games and designs for pinball. being inventive doesnt mean a few moving toys or big LED screens and all that, being inventive can be as simple as theme's and Layouts, doing tricky things with the ball that make you go WOW "how does that work". having the playfields more 3d with out the use of just plastic ramps and toys, bring back the marvel and wonder of Pinball in their design.
maybe technology has blinded Stern or even JJP, about needing things like toys and Lcd, Fancy DMD or really complex rules?. I dont know
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STERNs have been like a Toyota Camry, sturdy n reliable with modest features. It probably got them thru the difficult financial times with the GFC.
I think you will see alot more imagination with the ongoing releases. X Men Pro is that good. The boom design times are back for sure.
Stern have a great batch of very talented people. It has to equate to bigger n better times ahead. Alot of us are looking forward to each n every release. I certainly am.
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i really hope they do mate.
I hope they listen to what people are saying about interesting non movie or even licenced themes, and can create a legendary machine rather than a run of the mill machine that can gaurentee a few steady sales. safe is always boring.
the fact licensed themes also take money away from the budget and gets in the way of being tricky and cool.
instead of paying a company money for rights they can instead reward the buyers with A-grade machines. that would be my thinking anyways.
instead of a camery i want a dirty powerful v8 that gives you thills.
IT cant be that hard for them can it???
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The following article sums up where Stern is at.
http://www.wired.com/design/2012/09/stern-pinball/
As a company, I admire them for their persistence and belief.
Who is to question a companies ability to survive a difficult industry?
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There is a good reason why Stern doesn't publish any production numbers. If they would they would lose all credibility they somehow still seem to have (ironically often with pinball enthusiasts. I can't think of any pinball industry insider praising Stern for what they have been doing for the past 12 years.) I also doubt they would have found an investor to step in if those numbers were publicly known.
They ran out of left over McDonalds toys for Shrek.. so no more to be made
out of all the pinball company's to have survived Why did it have to be Stern? toys toys and more toys.
the least inventive pinball company, they are no bally williams as far as inventiveness of titles goes. how they survived is beyond me.
24? or CSI? come on, there is only 5 titles in that entire list that makes sense making, and yes acdc is one of them that makes sense.
i know allot of pressure rides on sterns shoulders as far as keeping pinball alive, but does it look to you that they arent even trying to be inventive???
I will say to cavey, it is great loyalty you hold towards Stern, and i can fully understand why you like them, and its for all the right reasons you support them as you understand, its the last real operational pinball company making pinballs. so i know my comments about stern seem a little personal. i dont mean them to be. my beef is purely with strens lack of innovation, i am glad that a company still operates but the more i look at sterns pinballs, or to be fair late stern pinballs, you can see how lazy they are. with out any real competing company against stern they seem to have no invovation to feed off.
what stern needs to do is look at what the best and over all most popular pinballs that have ever been made, sit down and study them, play them and figure out what it is people like about those machines, once they understand that, maybe they can start building not just good pinballs but awesome pinballs.
It's not so much running out of toys. FG didn't sell at all. Gary has admitted "that game came too soon". That's still a stubborn vision as nobody internally thought it would be a good theme. At the time nobody in Europe knew the theme. Shrek came to being to find a use for the parts for 500 games that already had been laying around. As that was announced as a limited edition, they couldn't make more.
While amongst pinball enthusiasts there seem to be Stern lovers and Stern haters, isn't it odd that there aren't that many Sega lovers? Stern simply continued what they were doing as Sega. Ops considered Sega a B-brand at the time and even with B/W as A-brand gone, Stern didn't even try to become an A-brand. Yet it seems we have to be thankful for all the poorly themed games with lack of innovation that have been put out of the past 12 years. I don't hear anyone saying we should be happy for Sega pinball games like Lost in Space, Independence Day, X-files, or Starship Troopers. You could make a second list including all the Data East and Sega games. Could be a fun listing, but it also would raise even more questionmarks with me.
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WOW, Lost In Space - I never even knew they made that - I would love one, and only 600 made???
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yes, SEGA made Lost in Space.
I have three quarters of all Sega games made, and I am a HUGE fan of Sega games. I would rather have all the SEGA games than half of the cookie cutter B/W games, cause they play better and have more interactive toys and are half the price and much better value. Same goes for DATA EAST games, alot of great games made here.
I only try to focus on the good that Stern has done, because at the end of the day, STERN has survived and no one else could. Thats worth something.
Another thing, if it wasnt for Stern, blokes like Johnh Borg, Steve Ritchie, George Gomez and twenty others wouldnt be designing pinballs. Its a funny thing, that in the end, Stern was the saviour, the only continuer of the pinball industry worldwide. I am looking forward to the new titles in 2013.
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P.S -
I have done game lists for the Bally, Sega and Data East brands as well.
They are located under the General Discussion section of threads. ^^^ ^^^
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yes, SEGA made Lost in Space.
I have three quarters of all Sega games made, and I am a HUGE fan of Sega games. I would rather have all the SEGA games than half of the cookie cutter B/W games, cause they play better and have more interactive toys and are half the price and much better value. Same goes for DATA EAST games, alot of great games made here.
I only try to focus on the good that Stern has done, because at the end of the day, STERN has survived and no one else could. Thats worth something.
Another thing, if it wasnt for Stern, blokes like Johnh Borg, Steve Ritchie, George Gomez and twenty others wouldnt be designing pinballs. Its a funny thing, that in the end, Stern was the saviour, the only continuer of the pinball industry worldwide. I am looking forward to the new titles in 2013.
A few points need to be cleared up here.....
Premier.. trading as Gottlieb, after Coca Cola had had an input sold off all its assets and divided it all to the share holders. In reality, GOTTLIEB cashed in years before and pulled out of the market with millions under its belt.
WILLIAMS bought out BALLY and continued to make great games but the decline in pinball sales saw them cease production of pinball and concentrate on gaming machines.. a move that has made them far more money than pinball ever did... WIILIAMS still exist but pure business ethics made them move to a new production.
Both of these big boys in the industry CHOSE to close their doors on the advent of arcade games... neither went broke... both cashed in one way or another. Both ceased trading pinball as successful companies still.
So its not a case of Stern carrying on when noone else could, its a case of those companies moving to bigger things.. move with the times or see your business demise.
Stern was until recently a privately owned company... this is no longer. With private investors.. Stern could easily cease trading tomorrow... not because it cant sell 2000 ACDC pins but because the board will decide that production would be better elsewhere... or cash in while its good.
So yes. Stern are #1 pinball manufacturer right now, but in the day they were the Playmatics of the USA scene.... a failure to progress ( Sterns bible) and a stubborness by Gary have seen it flounder over the years and come very very close to bankruptcy... hence the investor input.
its not a case of Sterns success cos they are still in build mode and GOOD licenced themes have seen a recent success... the others walked away laughing to the bank
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WOW, Lost In Space - I never even knew they made that - I would love one, and only 600 made???
You see them come up for sale on a regular basis. In the last 3 - 6 months, Pinball Shed, OZ Pinball, PSPA and Oscar at Pinball Memories have all had one for sale.
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If it wasnt for Stern, blokes like Johnh Borg, Steve Ritchie, George Gomez and twenty others wouldnt be designing pinballs. Its a funny thing, that in the end, Stern was the saviour, the only continuer of the pinball industry worldwide. I am looking forward to the new titles in 2013.
OK, you obviously have a very colored vision favoring Sten. That's fine. However, there are 2 sides to a coin. Your savior is also the one who limited all these talented designers in their work and in the eyes of many practically forced them to put out half finished cut down games with crappy licensed themes or crappy execution. So yes all the big names were designing games thanks to Gary, but probably not the games would want to design because your savior held them back. The only theory we can't test: what would have happened if Stern had never been there? Would other people have stepped up and started a factory? Who knows what great games that could have resulted in. If Gary is such a hero for pinball, how come most industry insiders tend to see that waaaaaay differently?
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If it wasnt for Stern, blokes like Johnh Borg, Steve Ritchie, George Gomez and twenty others wouldnt be designing pinballs. Its a funny thing, that in the end, Stern was the saviour, the only continuer of the pinball industry worldwide. I am looking forward to the new titles in 2013.
OK, you obviously have a very colored vision favoring Sten. That's fine. However, there are 2 sides to a coin. Your savior is also the one who limited all these talented designers in their work and in the eyes of many practically forced them to put out half finished cut down games with crappy licensed themes or crappy execution. So yes all the big names were designing games thanks to Gary, but probably not the games would want to design because your savior held them back. The only theory we can't test: what would have happened if Stern had never been there? Would other people have stepped up and started a factory? Who knows what great games that could have resulted in. If Gary is such a hero for pinball, how come most industry insiders tend to see that waaaaaay differently?
Industry ‘Insiders’, hey?
Every one who owns a business will tell you that every one else thinks they know how to run your business 10x better than you
I think printing a paper magazine in today’s wired world is a dumb idea
Rumor has it that Bally/Williams pinball division did not make any profit in its last few years
It took Gene 3 years to assemble <200 machines from an existing design
It has taken Jersey Jack more then two and a half years to get Woz to where it is now, and I do not believe his customers will get their machines this year
Stern IS building and selling games, sure, some of Garry’s decisions seem weird, but he continues to run his business
If it was easy, every one would be doing it
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If it was easy, every one would be doing it
+1 and well said.
A lot of talent to pay for at Stern every month - something must be right with Gary's business model.
The Stern story would be good in a glossy magazine. Look forward to a read.
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If it was easy, every one would be doing it
Ain't that the truth!!!
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If it wasnt for Stern, blokes like Johnh Borg, Steve Ritchie, George Gomez and twenty others wouldnt be designing pinballs. Its a funny thing, that in the end, Stern was the saviour, the only continuer of the pinball industry worldwide. I am looking forward to the new titles in 2013.
OK, you obviously have a very colored vision favoring Sten. That's fine. However, there are 2 sides to a coin. Your savior is also the one who limited all these talented designers in their work and in the eyes of many practically forced them to put out half finished cut down games with crappy licensed themes or crappy execution. So yes all the big names were designing games thanks to Gary, but probably not the games would want to design because your savior held them back. The only theory we can't test: what would have happened if Stern had never been there? Would other people have stepped up and started a factory? Who knows what great games that could have resulted in. If Gary is such a hero for pinball, how come most industry insiders tend to see that waaaaaay differently?
Ok, I hear what you are saying, and I totally agree to a few points. Some Stern games were on the basic side with little or no interactive toys. This was during the GFC period where Stern was doing it tough and had to cost cut to survive, but they have come out the other side and things are looking up, AC/DC and X Men games show that with a very good, if not great machine being produced to show that games are now got all the bells n whistles.
Re the designers having been held back, definately true cause every designer wants to put ""everything"" into a game, but ultimately, in a difficult economic climate "someone" who is Gary Stern has to pay for it, and if the budget isnt there, its not there ! So Gary, as CEO did his job and kept the company open without overspending. Its a compromise none the less, but it probably had to be done.
The pinball insiders might have different opinions, but at the end of the day, no one likes getting told what to do, and Gary is the Boss, no one likes the boss when he tells u what to do, when he makes u do it his way, but he is the boss, and probably the only one who knows everything about his business, the financial big picture as such so ultimately, he has the final say. I look forward to meeting Gary and as many of the guys as I can on my trip to Stern next year.
Re the pinball magazine being produced in the wireless/techno internet age, i like the hardcopy/magazine idea, because you want something to collect, to hold in your hands n keep, so I like the fact the magazine is being made. BUT, dont give STERN too much of a hard time,lol or they wont let u do a magazine story on them.lol
Gav, re Williams, they went broke in the end and had to walk away, the shareholders demanded it probably. They werent profitable, it seems no one was in those years. But thank the stars they produced all the great games they did so we can enjoy them today. Gary is a astute business man. He saw a opening and took it. Again, good on him, cause it gives us pinball fans new pinnys to play with.
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I'm not gonna copy/paste the whole thing above, but again you seem to have a very colored vision favoring all decisions Gary Stern is making. Still fine, but it also seems some rumors may have lead to that colored vision. I read a post on Pinside where Gary was described as a typical american car manufacturer. His way of doing business has a lot of similarities. To you Gary is your hero, others have a different opinion, based on other information. Nothing more, nothing less.
Obviously there is a difference between industry insiders with a passion for pinball, who know how the business works and see what possibilities and innovations are available but unused, and outsiders who base their opinion on rumors and speculation. At he moment there are at least 4 new companies starting up pinball manufacturing and they all have the same drive: they are disappointed by the output of the past decade and want to bring the fun back in pinball. I'm not saying it is easy, but I played the whitewood of Circe's Animal House and that game had more fun in it than I have seen in a long time with new games. (That may be my colored view on things speaking ;) ) Sure you may appreciate what Stern has put out, but there are also opinions who see the 'damage' that Stern games have caused in the form of operators quitting on buying new games. You may be happy with those games, but plenty operators were not and gave up on pinball. It will take new companies to win these over again, cause they most likely won't be interested in pinball as long as Stern keeps doing what they did so far.
Whether you like the idea of a collectible printed glossy paper magazine, or not, if you would read issue 1 you may discover some great inside background info. There is a chart with B/W pinball production numbers which shows that after Demolition Man in 1994 it took until Revenge from Mars to match the numbers of that production run. All 24 games in between sold less than RFM. Since rumors are brought up: what I've been told the B/W pinball division did make money, especially when Pinball 2000 was launched. However, they did not enough money to keep shareholders happy. They saw more profit in making casino equipment, so WMS went that way. That may put things in a different light. Contrary to some opinions WMS did not go broke. They still exist and are very successful. They just closed the pinball division for whatever reasons they had at the time.
Since the BBB production was brought up: I assisted in that production. I went over for a month and put all sorts of parts together. I know why it took Gene 3 years to build these games. Apart from dealing with all sorts of issues with third parties, he wants to things his way (stubbornness seems to be a required qualofication for pinball manufacturers ;) ). So it took him 3 years, but he delivered a killer game. There were easier ways, but Gene figured they would not be true to the original game. That's a choice he made. Interestingly the biggest bashers of the BBB project did not buy a game. So why did they care anyway? The people who ordered one were confident and got their game.
JJP announced WoZ January 1st 2011. In my book that's not 2 and a half year ago, just over 1 and a half.
I knew about Heighway Pinball since January of this year. In august they had a smooth playing whitewood. That shows it is becoming easier to make pinball machines. I can only hope they can get their production up and running soon.
So yes, Stern is still building and selling games. to go back to a comment at the beginning of this topic: I can understand why someone would say: of all the pinball manufacturers in the world, why did it have to be Stern to keep the ball rolling.
As for a PM issue on Stern's history: the 80's games/company may be interesting to cover, but I doubt if we'll see a Gary Stern special anytime soon. A special on Australian manufacturers and their games seems more interesting to me.
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JJP announced WoZ January 1st 2011. In my book that's not 2 and a half year ago, just over 1 and a half.
Go back to the first Spooky podcast where Jack first talks about WoZ
in the podcast he mentions that work on Woz had started 12 months prior
April 18 is the first time the public sees anything from Woz, Dorithys house
Jack would have to have been fairly along in the design prosess to even be working on 'Toys'
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I wouldnt say Gary Stern is anyones hero, but being a business owner myself, I have to respect the fact that Stern has produced, survived and stayed profitable. Results count, money in the bank counts and he has certainly done that.
Selling anything considered a non essential product, espescially a luxury item like a pinball machine is a huge accomplishment today.
Even selling a product to operators who place pinball machines onsite is going to be extremely difficult.
Coming up with that "hit game" time after time would be a huge task. Having to invent something "new" every pinball game is also near impossible. People have to be realistic. These designers have to be like magicians these days. Small budgets, small design windows, and a ever impatient customer base who expects perfection and brilliance is a hard ship to sail.
The pinball machine production business is very much like a car manufacturing company, but Stern has one percent of the start up capital, if that, and a end sale price of say $5,000, yet Stern have to do the same work that companies like Ford/General Motors have to do to produce a car, a new model, or 3 or 4 new models each year. Not a easy task.
Anyone seen a profitable USA car maker in the last 12 years. No. Stern have done better than billionaire car companies when u think about it !
Stern makes profit where none of the USA car makers could. That shows Gary Stern is a smart operator to me anyway.
Not everyone will like Stern or hold them in high esteem, but at least we have new pinball titles to look forward to.
Also, JJP has made Gary Stern look alot smarter. JJP has plenty of money, and it hasnt got him over the line yet with one game, and he had pre-orders which Stern doesnt do, that shows its a very very hard business after all. Its taken JJP almost 2 years to make one game, and its not finished.
Yes he was a new start up, but its irrelevant, it takes years to get these processes right.
Even extremely profitable companies worldwide have gone broke this last 5 years or so, but again Stern have stayed open in a luxury market.
Not a easy task. Looking forward, things look positive for Stern fans.
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Oh NO!!! Not that old chestnut "Toyotas are the most reliable car on the planet" - please, spare me!
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Sure you may appreciate what Stern has put out, but there are also opinions who see the 'damage' that Stern games have caused in the form of operators quitting on buying new games. You may be happy with those games, but plenty operators were not and gave up on pinball. It will take new companies to win these over again, cause they most likely won't be interested in pinball as long as Stern keeps doing what they did so far.
Which operator is prepared to invest in a dozen pinball machines worth around $100K, in a pinball parlour which costs 5-10K per week in rent and spend $100 p.h. for technicians to service when our young are playing Angry Birds on their phones and tablets?
Times are changing and it is harsh to blame the sole pinball manufacturer on the arcade demise. What the new manufacturers are rushing for is the pot of gold associated with the growing home collector market sparked by the cashed-up retiring baby boomers.
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Oh NO!!! Not that old chestnut "Toyotas are the most reliable car on the planet" - please, spare me!
Mike, It was only an example.lol you can change the word toyota to ford, holden, subaru, mazda, take ya pick.lol ^^^
If thats the only thing u picked up on after all that reading I am a happy man.
Also for pinballmag, Freihher makes a very good point. It wouldnt have mattered who made pinballs this last 13 years, it wouldnt have mattered if you gave a free model wife who puts out 3 times a day with every pinball machine sold to a operator, kids were playing xbox and playstation and talking on facebook. It would not have mattered what pinball u produced, worldwide pinball machines onsite arent taking in the coin. The home market is the future of Stern. I hope its enough for Stern to stay open another 13 years.
To my knowledge operators only account for less than 30 percent of Stern sales maximum. !@#
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To my knowledge operators only account for less than 30 percent of Stern sales maximum. !@#
12 years ago that was 100% operators. Gary still doesn't acknowledge home users as a market. So what does that tell us? That he lost the operator market for 70%. Isn't that alarming?
As for JJP: didn't he take the WoZ license to make that pusher game first and once that started selling he started on hiring people for the pinball company?
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Gary often talks about the home market and talks specifically about the LE models designed specifically for the home user/collector.
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how do you figure Garry stern is successful or a brilliant business man??
he isnt producing good titles, to me he seems to be building titles he likes or a very small market likes, besides Acdc there isnt really that many titles that make sense making. he isnt listening to the masses by producing innovative games, that isnt smart, i think he is lazy.
To be honest if he had half decent competition and not simply relying on the SYMPATHY buyer he wouldn't be in business any more.
i bet the pinball market is bigger than the amount of pinballs he sells, he has world wide market and the only Pinball maker, yet small numbers. there are more billionaires in the world than there are pinballs being made by Stern.
He isnt building good titles. you cant deny the titles Stern is coming out with are exactly Inspiring or mind blowing. there is no creativity with the themes.
I personally hope Pinballmagazines criticism reaches stern, whilst stern may not want to be interviewed by them lol it might make him try and prove the critics wrong.
Ps i site pins, atm i site cheap secondhand pins, but let me tell you, if i saw a good brand new innovative pinball i would site in my shop straight up, i bet i am not alone. im not spending $6-10grand on a pinball that is less than inspiring when i can do that for $1grand.
I bet if B/W held on for a few more years i bet stern wouldnt be around today.
I HOPE STERN LISTENS AND STARTS BUILDING INNOVATIVE TITLES. i dont want to bag stern out, but i dont think we should pat their back, and give them false confirmation they are making good titles when they arent in most cases.
and again there is no value for money in these machines, your only paying for royalties not a machines awesomeness
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I have to respectfully disagree with 99 percent of what u have said. Stern employs around 60 people plus, has a turnover in the dozens of millions per annum, and makes machines that alot, ALOT of people love.
He has probably around 6,000 or more machine sales per year. Thats 6,000 people who like his product in 30 different countries. That DOES take a smart businessman who is very switched on. Results speak and he HAS the runs on the board.
Some people will never be happy with what Stern does, no matter what Stern does. Its easy when u are on the outside looking in, but it would be ALOT different sitting in Gary Sterns chair.
If anyone has any brilliant ideas, email them to Stern !
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I have to respectfully disagree with 99 percent of what u have said. Stern employs around 60 people plus, has a turnover in the dozens of millions per annum, and makes machines that alot, ALOT of people love.
He has probably around 6,000 or more machine sales per year. Thats 6,000 people who like his product in 30 different countries. That DOES take a smart businessman who is very switched on. Results speak and he HAS the runs on the board.
Some people will never be happy with what Stern does, no matter what Stern does. Its easy when u are on the outside looking in, but it would be ALOT different sitting in Gary Sterns chair.
If anyone has any brilliant ideas, email them to Stern !
Outside Looking in?? im on the side where i have to decide to buy or not. i can go through sega,capcom,b/w,dateast and find titles i want to buy, but Stern?? whilst he may not give a crap what i think about these titles or others, that maybe the reason he only sells 6000 games a year, thats not very many games really. im not asking for 100% hit rate but mate they arent inspiring machines by any stretch, name one theme stern has made out of that list that was none licensed and successful? How much money on a pinball sale would go into the license that is meaning budget cutting from the build??? these licensed titled arent value for money, your paying for some ones brand only and the deisgn can only work within the brands restriction.
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6000 machines world wide for the ONLY main pinball maufacturer isnt a lot Brett... he has very little if any real competition. Thats why JJP started up producing machines and on the promise to make machines that are NOT like a Stern he sold 1200 pre sale... all he did was say he was making a machine based on quality as opposed to Stern and on that promise sold 25% of Sterns yearly worldwide market before any machine had even gone to production. The queue to play WOZ at PPE was huge.. far more interest in this than any Stern title. Its almost like the pinball community breathed a sigh of relief with JJP and embraced it for what its not.. now it will be embraced for what it is.
JJP has hit delays.. its to be expected when starting from scratch.. Gary inherited all his tooling.
Once up and running properly JJP will be a thorn in Gary's side.. he already is. I guarantee that gary sweats over JJP and would do anything he could to try and delay its release ( if he can).
Without JJP... Stern would have more Big Buck games..LOL. Since JJP's release of intention he has lifted his game.
ACDC at just under $6000 to an Australian market was a master stroke, but it cant be repeated, all it did was lift his profile and show to the world that he can make a good title when pushed.
4 new manufacturers emerging... oh yes.. Gary is sweating.
it should also be noted that when the repro King of Diamonds went onsite with a Stern.. it outperformed Stern in its takings every time... thats not good news for Stern as KOD was not embraced by the purists and many shunned it.
The POTENTIAL pinball market is far far bigger than Stern have been able to satisfy... presales for WOZ attest to the hunger in the community for something other than the Stern business code.
Stern have ALWAYS been lazy.. he copied everything right from the start and with little or no competition he has no real drive.
Next 3 years will see a lot more happening in the pinball market with the new manufacturers emerging... if these manufacturers didnt think that Sterns games lacked direction and met the market demand they wouldnt set up.. it aint cheap!
But no... money is on the table and convictions have been made... all because of the belief that Stern doesnt deliver to a POTENTIAL market... not an existing Stern market... but the thousands of others who havent bought NIB due to lack of innovation and imagination.
Stern now has shareholders that he has to keep happy... and with share holders its all profit.. more profit or close. This new investment in Stern could well be its own demise. I hope not as all innovations in pinball have come about with stiff competition for rival companies.
Maybe Stern will emerge as a GOOD pinball manufacturer.. its not a reputation it already enjoys.. apart from yourself that is...LOL
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quote from OJ > ""Maybe Stern will emerge as a GOOD pinball manufacturer.. its not a reputation it already enjoys.. apart from yourself that is...LOL""
dont forget the other 5,999 happy customers.lol
By the way, I reckon half of the people who bought a WOZ from JJP probably thought it would be JJP's only title, and it might become a collectors item like Big Bang Bar. I wonder how many will be held new in box, or resold for profit if it is JJP's only pinball title.
Sterns machines getting better probably had nothing to do with JJP, it had to do with the fact that the company got a heallthy investor perhaps and the global financial crisis went away. If anything JJP has made Stern look better. X Men etc is a great title, probably brought about by a better budget and more design hours n innovation.
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I recon stern have the capability to make an innovative pinball but they need to take a gamble.less useless toys, no more photoshoped art, and i recon their best way of being able to do that is is by none licenced theme. i bet you would buy it cavey, just like every other stern fan boy, the difference being they might also make new stern fans by doing that.
How much money do you recon goes into royalties that could go into building a better machine if sold for the same price??? and stern isnt limited to design restrictions to meet the licensed themes requirements. dont you agree with at least that ???
the beef with JJP is on the themed side, they have done exactly the same thing as Stern imo
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more fanboys the better for pinball. yes to a non licenced theme if it was a fun player and a looker.
(now, I am going to bed. Its always good to have a fun debate/discussion on here). We are all passionate about pinball and thats what counts. ^^^
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more fanboys the better for pinball. yes to a non licenced theme if it was a fun player and a looker.
(now, I am going to bed. Its always good to have a fun debate/discussion on here). We are all passionate about pinball and thats what counts. ^^^
no worry's have a good night. ^^^
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dont forget the other 5,999 happy customers.lol
Thats worldwide and MANY people were not happy with ACDC... silly failures that should have been ironed out before shipping.. already ACDC owners are looking at their machines wondering how to replace parts WHEN they fail.. not IF they fail... been a couple of posts on this forum to support that statement.
Dont get me wrong here Cavey... im not here to bag the crap out of Stern, but if post after post is about how great Stern are then expect some opposite feedback... i dont agree.. one good title and then another doesnt make a good manufacturer, not when a bunch of lame titles have preceeded it
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I couldn't agree more with Retropin and Olivia Jason, but it is obvious we're dealing with a firm believer who is going to see a full glass when there are only a few drops in it. That's still fine, so let's agree to disagree.
There was recently an interesting discussion on Pinside about things people dislike in modern pinball machines. Interestingly nobody mentioned Stern, but all the dislikes seem to appear on their games way more than on any other brand from the past 15-20 years. http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-modern-pins-do-you-dislike
As for the royalties being paid for a license on a pinball machine: those aren't the costs. You'd be surprised how low that actually is.
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I couldn't agree more with Retropin and Olivia Jason, but it is obvious we're dealing with a firm believer who is going to see a full glass when there are only a few drops in it. That's still fine, so let's agree to disagree.
are you trying to alienate your potential customer base?
Because to me you are coming across as a Stern hater an a bit of a dick
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I couldn't agree more with Retropin and Olivia Jason, but it is obvious we're dealing with a firm believer who is going to see a full glass when there are only a few drops in it. That's still fine, so let's agree to disagree.
are you trying to alienate your potential customer base?
Because to me you are coming across as a Stern hater an a bit of a dick
!@# !@# @.@ !@# !@#
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I couldn't agree more with Retropin and Olivia Jason, but it is obvious we're dealing with a firm believer who is going to see a full glass when there are only a few drops in it. That's still fine, so let's agree to disagree.
are you trying to alienate your potential customer base?
Because to me you are coming across as a Stern hater an a bit of a dick
!@# !@# @.@ !@# !@#
Maybe
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I couldn't agree more with Retropin and Olivia Jason, but it is obvious we're dealing with a firm believer who is going to see a full glass when there are only a few drops in it. That's still fine, so let's agree to disagree.
are you trying to alienate your potential customer base?
Because to me you are coming across as a Stern hater an a bit of a dick
You're as much entitled to your opinion as I am. I'm don't hate Stern but I don't think they put out great games either (although there are a few exceptions, such as AC/DC). That is my personal opinion and I respect your opinion. So we don't like the same games. That's fine, no big deal. I may have a different choice in what about I like in women than you. Thank God for that because if we all liked the same woman that would be a serious problem.
So I found most of their games boring, not well executed, uninspired, too much multiball, too long ball times, and I can go on. That is my personal opinion and experience with their games. That doesn't mean I like each and every game B/W or another manufacturer put out. I strongly believe (and every single designer will agree with me) that the product put out by a (in this case pinball)company reflects how much fun the designteam had in designing the game. I do sense that the same designers at B/W had a lot more fun in their work than when they were working at Stern. The designers I spoke with over the years all have confirmed that. The difference is like working late hours because you're having so much fun and want to continue, or working late hours because your boss tells you to because he thinks you're not working fast enough. That difference in working environment will show in the product put out.
Apart from judging the product put out I also look at the side effects. Let's say the pinball operator market was still 100% in 1999, and within a few years 50% of the operators don't want to buy new games anymore because of their experiences with the games from the remaining company, what does that tell you? You may still think Striker Xtreme or High Roller Casino are great games, but on location they weren't such big hits. They're still of the same quality the same factory put out when they were Sega. You may appreciate those games. The only upside for collectors of those games is that they are able to buy 10 of those games for the same amount of money as they would spend on a Medieval Madness. That has to say something about how those games generally are received. You may still think they're the best thing ever, but if they were wouldn't their prices be a lot higher?
Since your doubting my professionalism: my opinion on what I think of Stern Pinball, or any manufacturer, will not be expressed through the magazine. The magazine is not about me, but about the people who work(ed) behind the scenes of the pinball industry, collectors and/or people who support the hobby today in a way lots of other can enjoy the same hobby. I even have copy editors who will edit any partial copy or questions into neutral copy. In issue 1 you'll find an article on a guy who collects Game Plan pinball machines. Guess what: Game Plan gets no love at all. Still I thought it would be a great feature in the magazine. The guy has been a great help and I look forward to spotlighting more specialty collectors with 'odd' collections. In the magazine I'm not judging. I let people talk about their passion and leave the judging (if any) to the readers. You may choose not to want to read what they have to say, for whatever personal reason, but you may be missing out on a great read.
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Well put Jonathan.
Don't worry, I also cop a lot of flak because 'some' either don't like what I say or don't like what I think.…..some tell me I should just shut up and keep my opinions to myself...
Don't worry about Cavey stealing your woman - he likes boys hahahahaha - JOKING!!!! :lol
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STERN men.lol NOT %.% %.% %.% %.%
I do like Steve Ritchie and John Borg. AC/DC and X Men games are very good.
If George Gomez produces a killer title, I will like him too !
I am sure my wife would like to get rid of me. She probably hopes I go to the Stern factory and never come back. <..>
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^^^
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Stern has only 3 titles in production, but 11 machine variants for sale via its dealers ! (All models listed are for sale via dealers in the USA.)
TRON will make a short rerun around end November/December.
Not a bad effort. Lots to choose from with only 3 titles but 11 variations.
The 3 x titles are - TRANSFORMERS, AC/DC and X MEN
Variants are
Transformers Pro
Transformers LE
Transformers Decepticon
Transformers Autobot
AC/DC Pro
AC/DC Premium
AC/DC LTB Rock
AC/DC BI Black
X MEN Pro
X MEN Wolverine
X MEN Magneto
Will there be another title before Xmas, other than TRON which will make it 12 variants for sale plus a possible 3 more variants with Avengers or whatever the unknown next title is ????
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It looks like you can add another Transformers model: http://www.amazon.com/Stern-Pinball-9386-Transformers-Table/dp/B009AVLBS0/ref=sr_1_5?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1349047379&sr=1-5
What you are saying about people having lots of choice isn't completely accurate. I have heard several distributors complain they don't know what to order anymore, so they stick with 1 type and maybe add add a variant if requested. That doesn't give collectors much choice.
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It looks like you can add another Transformers model: http://www.amazon.com/Stern-Pinball-9386-Transformers-Table/dp/B009AVLBS0/ref=sr_1_5?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1349047379&sr=1-5
What you are saying about people having lots of choice isn't completely accurate. I have heard several distributors complain they don't know what to order anymore, so they stick with 1 type and maybe add add a variant if requested. That doesn't give collectors much choice.
They must be pretty dumb dealers if they cant look up a web page. Even my 12 year old daughter could find the below link/page.
STERN would be sending these dealers lots of sales offers for anything and everything they have ready in boxes surely ?
http://www.sternpinball.com/Games.aspx
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Couple of points that need correction ;
Williams and Gottlieb were cashed up when they closed their doors. They did not go broke. The industry completely changed. Williams moved funds to their slot machine division - which still exists today. Stern have NEVER been in a "cashed up" position to close their doors, and would need a Few more AC/DC "big sellers" in quick succession to do so. Remember, Stern almost went broke until investors stepped in a few years ago.
Even in the 70's, Stern didn't innovate from EM to SS. They simply copied Bally's boardset to the point that the basic board sets can be swapped into a Bally. That set the tone for Sterns future that would end up continuing into today. No innovation, and no originality. Stern have been LAZY since the competition moved on to better things (in terms of their Business model). So Stern set the standard, and complacency set in. Ironically, along comes JJP, and Stern lift their game (AC/DC). Stern have always been followers, and never leaders. Stern can never be compared to the "big boys" - Williams, Gottlieb and Bally.
I might sound critical of Stern, but I'm simply correcting some assumptions on the thread. I would LOVE to own a NIB Stern one day. I'm glad they stuck around while the others moved in to a more profitable industry.
Things are "hotting up" because JPP have arrived. Now let's see Stern's response to the competition. Hopefully it won't be the price rise per unit I keep hearing about !@#
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You are probably correct. I think its impossible for anyone to really know what financial position Williams Pinball was in when they called it a day unless you were working in the accounts dept. That pinball subsidiary of Williams might have been in the black or in the red, but it is unlikely that any business closes its doors on a profitable business. Perhaps they were breaking even, or trading dollars for dollars, but the last 3 years of production were low, albeit better figures than the other manufacturers were doing anyway.
The last few machines they sold over a 3 year period, making it a average of only 2 new titles per year, compared to their average of 4 titles per year, were
Star Wars Episode 1 - 3525 units
Tales of the Arabian Nights - 3128
Junk Yard - 3013
Medieval Madness - 4016
No Good Gofers - 2711
Monster Bash - 3361
Perhaps Williams was smart enough to pull the pin when they did, before they started suffering large financial losses. Pin2000 didnt do the figures, so what were they to do next to get figures right up again ? Its a good question because it seems after producing beautiful games like Monsterbash, MediEvil Madness, Junkyard and TOTAN, they still couldnt get the numbers they needed. If you produce great machines like the ones I have just mentioned, and you still cant get the numbers up, its not the product, its the market who had moved on sadly to X Box n Playstation.
Even so, it would have been nice to have worked at Williams in its hey day, seeing games like Twilight Zone going down the production line, month after month. Dam it would be nice to have a time machine.
Oneday next year I might get to sitdown with Gary Stern and ask him 20 x questions. Then I will know some more about Stern.
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It looks like you can add another Transformers model: http://www.amazon.com/Stern-Pinball-9386-Transformers-Table/dp/B009AVLBS0/ref=sr_1_5?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1349047379&sr=1-5
What you are saying about people having lots of choice isn't completely accurate. I have heard several distributors complain they don't know what to order anymore, so they stick with 1 type and maybe add add a variant if requested. That doesn't give collectors much choice.
They must be pretty dumb dealers if they cant look up a web page. Even my 12 year old daughter could find the below link/page.
STERN would be sending these dealers lots of sales offers for anything and everything they have ready in boxes surely ?
http://www.sternpinball.com/Games.aspx
Sure they know what games are available in what variation. They just don't know which version to order / they can sell. Will the Rolling Stones want the Pro model or the LE? How should they know? They never dealt with Rolling Stones fans before. 4 versions of X-men? They have no clue if they can even sell an LE Wolverine, or to who. That's what is making it difficult. They rather see just 1 model like it used to be for years.
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That pinball subsidiary of Williams might have been in the black or in the red, but it is unlikely that any business closes its doors on a profitable business
corperate guys are funny they close even profitable departments just on the fact of less profit than the year before, so it could be millions of bucks in the black but might have been down abit so they close it and move to departments to use all their power on a department that make the mega bucks like Slots as strangeways says.
its silly and unfortunate i guess.
anyways im not sure if playstation and xbox really harm these things like pinball, remember Nintendo and sega and playstation were all around in every single house in the low to mid nineties and we were all playing them to death back then. its not that difference.
i have an xbox360 iphone pc's and all the simular crap that i had in the 90's when arcades were popular in the 90's and still play pinball.
I blame the Problem purely on the lack of good marketing. there is no B/w doign their good marketing so pinball has suffered.
Heylets face it the Ipad ipod and xbox are all things we can live with out however good marketing has meant we bought some shit we dont really need but think we do. Even mcdonalds can make the worlds shittiest hamburger and sell it to billions of people, ITS ALL ABOUT MARKETING, Look at the skate boards kids are riding around on now, they are riding those old little one kick retro skateboards fro mthe 70's and into city beach and look at the price of one, they pay $300 for one, lol and all the kids in my area have one. Marketing is the key and retro is cool atm.
I know kids are interested by pinball because my sited pinball makes a killing, most have never seen or played one besides on their playstation and they all say its better than playing the playstation.
I do hold High hopes for pinball, i honestly cant see a reason for them not make a come back, and i think stern can get their shit together eventually and id like to think they read these forums and see what people are saying and might get the idea of whats wanted in a pinball.
as ive said millions of times here Retro is making a huge come back and Pinball is the essence of retro, stern just need to capitalize on it now, and maby they are as acdc was a smart title to kick it off, but they need a none licensed title with innovation now.
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You are probably correct. I think its impossible for anyone to really know what financial position Williams Pinball was in when they called it a day unless you were working in the accounts dept. That pinball subsidiary of Williams might have been in the black or in the red, but it is unlikely that any business closes its doors on a profitable business. Perhaps they were breaking even, or trading dollars for dollars, but the last 3 years of production were low, albeit better figures than the other manufacturers were doing anyway.
The last few machines they sold over a 3 year period, making it a average of only 2 new titles per year, compared to their average of 4 titles per year, were
Star Wars Episode 1 - 3525 units
Tales of the Arabian Nights - 3128
Junk Yard - 3013
Medieval Madness - 4016
No Good Gofers - 2711
Monster Bash - 3361
Perhaps Williams was smart enough to pull the pin when they did, before they started suffering large financial losses. Pin2000 didnt do the figures, so what were they to do next to get figures right up again ? Its a good question because it seems after producing beautiful games like Monsterbash, MediEvil Madness, Junkyard and TOTAN, they still couldnt get the numbers they needed. If you produce great machines like the ones I have just mentioned, and you still cant get the numbers up, its not the product, its the market who had moved on sadly to X Box n Playstation.
Even so, it would have been nice to have worked at Williams in its hey day, seeing games like Twilight Zone going down the production line, month after month. Dam it would be nice to have a time machine.
Oneday next year I might get to sitdown with Gary Stern and ask him 20 x questions. Then I will know some more about Stern.
You're obviously missing a very big point: Since 1989 Bally and Williams were the same company. You can't just look at the last Williams games and neglect the Bally titles. It was the same pinball division, they just used two different brand names.
You may get some new insights if you read what Roger Sharpe is saying about the last years of the WMS pinball division in Pinball Magazine. The graphic chart with sales figures in the magazine may also give you a bit more insight.
20 questions to Gary? Show me the questions and I'll bet you I (and many others) can tell you exactly the answers he will give you.
Just as a heads up: I've been in the Stern factory: you'll probably lose your religion. It's almost like if you know how they make sausages, you'll never eat one again :)
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anyways im not sure if playstation and xbox really harm these things like pinball, remember Nintendo and sega and playstation were all around in every single house in the low to mid nineties and we were all playing them to death back then. its not that difference.
i have an xbox360 iphone pc's and all the simular crap that i had in the 90's when arcades were popular in the 90's and still play pinball.
The threat to pinball in the 1980s (as an example) was not poor marketing but the onslaught of Space Invaders and video arcade games.
Williams Black Knight was a critical pin in 1980. Read the last quote from Steve Ritchie in the following thread:
http://aussiepinball.com/index.php?topic=9380.msg121527#msg121527
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Good articles.
I didnt include Bally with the last Williams titles being produced, cause I dont know if Bally and Williams ran out of the same factory, and if the two businesses were run seperately on paper or not for those years. An answer for this question needs to come from someone who was there in the day, with real knowledge to help back it up ? Example, what titles were produced under the same roof, and if they were, which i doubt and wonder about, why brand the machines for 15 years under seperate labels, Bally, then Williams seperately ??? !@#
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anyways im not sure if playstation and xbox really harm these things like pinball, remember Nintendo and sega and playstation were all around in every single house in the low to mid nineties and we were all playing them to death back then. its not that difference.
i have an xbox360 iphone pc's and all the simular crap that i had in the 90's when arcades were popular in the 90's and still play pinball.
The threat to pinball in the 1980s (as an example) was not poor marketing but the onslaught of Space Invaders and video arcade games.
Williams Black Knight was a critical pin in 1980. Read the last quote from Steve Ritchie in the following thread:
http://aussiepinball.com/index.php?topic=9380.msg121527#msg121527
yer because that was all new and the only place you could play both was in an arcade with that new high tech machine sitting beside an old pinball, look at the low to mid nineties, and how many fantastic consoles were made then, every one having pc's in the house unlike the 80's were only selected few did. it was a revolution for gaming, but pinball had that resurrection at that point. its very similar to how it is now, and to be honest every one is starting to get a bit tired of the technology, these things always come around in circles imo. and plus good marketers can use the technology against its self to market pinball. whilest we are tired up with this technology that doesnt mean there is no room for anything else, the silly thing is to compare a pinball machine to the iphone, tell customers thats the market you are fighting against is iphone is a stupid move, its a totally different market,and they should seperate them selves from that sort of thinking.
if you think having pinball game on an iphone makes it the same as pinball you are wrong, if anything that helps it grow and people will want to play the real thing. its Always down to marketing, have you ever used Itunes?? its a bloody nightmare and a pile of crap yet the marketers make you think its the best thing since sliced bread. Marketing is where the problem is and part of that is making Titles that are more attractive to a new Audience
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For interest, x box was released late november 2001 and playstation early jan 1995
pinball companies would have started feeling the effects within 12 months, around early 1996 from P/S gaming consoles.
the decline in pinball sales is reflected around this time.
(I wish playstation and x box were never released personally) @.@
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For interest, x box was released late november 2001 and playstation early jan 1995
pinball companies would have started feeling the effects within 12 months, around early 1996 from P/S gaming consoles.
the decline in pinball sales is reflected around this time.
(I wish playstation and x box were never released personally) @.@
no but you had, sega, sega mega drive,sega saturns, Nintendo, super Nintendo, Nintendo 64 and others, and at least every house hold had one or more of them. plus you had that revolution of Pc gaming.
come on you cant deny that marketing cant change the direction of trends.
but as stated you saw those pacman games kick pinballs ass in the 80s then pinball found its spot again in the late 80's early nineties and made that huge comeback, if gaming made its attack again on pinball in the late 90's with its next revolution then its a huge failure of pinball not to have done what it did in the early nineties to pull its self back into the game, but also you see the guys who made it happen like B/W give up and go to gaming machines.
there is nothing stopping pinball succeeding other than the pinball makers at this time and their marketing issues. you cant deny that
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The decline of pinball had nothing to do with console games. The decline started in the early 80's with the advent of Space Invaders, Galaxian, Asteroids and Pac Man. The rot was well and truly "set in". Console games that came on the scene years later emulated video games, and not pinball. Video games started the decline.
What's my source ? I saw our LAST pinball container opened in 1980 ish - the last pinball container arrived full of NIB Ballys, Gottliebs and Sterns.
The next container that arrived was full of Videos - Space Invaders clones, Pac Mans, Tempest etc etc.. Not ONE pinball.
I do recall in 1984 ish, a container filled with Fathoms, Medusa, Eight Ball Deluxes etc etc was left in the USA and not imported. ANOTHER container of Vids replaced it. That was the start of the end. The 70s-80s was the glory days that the 90's would never see. What the major manufacturers did in the 90's was on a much smaller scale - but nevertheless - this period would be the hardest for them as Videos killed off the pinball industry.
I still remember the days of a dozen solid states in every second Arcade, and then the horrific sight of cocktail tables and upright videos that replaced them. It was very hard for the pinball manufacturers in the 90's. But Williams were definitely still profitable in the late 90's and could have kept going with pinball. But they had shareholders to look after.
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Sounds spot on.
I started playing pinball in the late 60s and Gottlieb was king and then Bally and Williams took the reins in the late 70s early 80s.
Space Invaders, Pac Man and Gallaga were the top 3 pinball killers that I remember at the time.
Arcades were changing in the 80s with less pinball and more video games.
Computers and consoles then dealt a second blow to the arcades as kids could now play in the comforts of their parents home.
It's a bit like what home theaters are doing to cinemas and what videos and dvds did to drive-ins .
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..... I think its impossible for anyone to really know what financial position Williams Pinball was in when they called it a day unless you were working in the accounts dept.
No, public company, information is out there. Could start with this http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/76/76037/reports/wms_042301.pdf (page 12) and look for other information if you really want it, it is out there. Pinball was losing money, and a public company has shareholders to answer to, and saw better opportunities in other areas of gaming. Watch "TILT: The Battle to Save Pinball" they go through some of the financial losses (not in depth though).
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Well, since that document is from the accounts dept or its accountants,lol, it will do fine. I was keen Nick to get a better understanding of the past with Williams, but not to the point of looking for documents. But its good u were able to locate those details.
The point i was making on a past post, is that without real documents, real numbers, its speculation and anybodys guess.
It does seem to clearly show the pinball business had lost money if I am reading it correctly with a quick glance ?
Everything in the pinball section comes under the heading of losses. In any event, I dont think it comes as much of a surprise. The figures seem to be extremely low for a very large pinball operation. At best towards the end, they were trading dollars for dollars and going nowhere, before the small losses. I wonder if figures for Data East are available.?
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This is a very interesting post because at the heart of it you are all talking about pinball and it's survival in an ever changing world. Other industries and companies go through similar trauma and changes, take for example Fender guitars. What have guitars got to do with pinball you may ask. Well, if you read the following article, the parallel of Fender with a company like Williams is unmistakable.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/business/fender-aims-to-stay-plugged-in-amid-changing-music-trends.html?pagewanted=all
I often wonder how guys like Jersey Jack have the guts to start such a risky and didifficult venture of pinball manufacture.
If you employ at least 20 talented design people and just as many production staff, the wage bill is fairly hefty especially when you first start up. How could you run a profit if you do not sell 3 or 4 titles or 20,000 units per annum?