The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Pinball Reviews => DMD 1991 - Present => Topic started by: SwingLid on November 09, 2012, 10:31:24 AM
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Hello all.
Reading a lot about the games from the past and "how good they are" surely there are some new games that would be better.. better playfield etc etc..
Would like to know...Id rater spend 8k on a new great game than 9k on a classic just because they are sort after..
Thankyou
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buy what you like playing, and in the condition you like it to be
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Like Greg said, get out to a dealer or locations play heaps of different games then decide what you like playing rather than relying on other peoples opinions
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Cheers
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Hello all.
Reading a lot about the games from the past and "how good they are" surely there are some new games that would be better.. better playfield etc etc..
Would like to know...Id rater spend 8k on a new great game than 9k on a classic just because they are sort after..
Thankyou
Indeed many of the newer games leave the older game dead in the water imo but I still love the B/W period form the 90/s, some great games from there that will always be great and some of the best pins ever made.
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If you are looking for a pinball, and it is your first (or one of your first), then don't throw a heap of cash at it. $8k- $9k is way too much. I'd rather buy 2 DMDs for $3000 and an SS or EM for under $2000. That way, you have variety, and if you have the room, you can lean towards the era that attracts you the most.
I would never recommend a first pin be over $3000 - $4000.
"Sought after" older games - Not worth it unless you are serious collector of that era. I speak of KISS, Playboy, Fathom.. There's only one or two "classics" that are even near $8000.
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pinball improved in leaps and bounds from the mid 70's to late 90's, but it has pretty much stagnated since. The new games of today are not really better at all, some do prefer them, but they would be minority I suspect.
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pinball improved in leaps and bounds from the mid 70's to late 90's, but it has pretty much stagnated since. The new games of today are not really better at all, some do prefer them, but they would be minority I suspect.
+1
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Its just nice to open a brand new in box machine and know u wont have to fix anything or have any hassles for a decent while...its like a new car, its just nice to be the first owner...something special in that,,,and the moden titles are time period relevant (meaning right now n this years trendy movie etc) whereas, older machines are sometimes titles that have aged to early to mid nineties...
I still look at games like Twilight Zone, Indy Jones Widebody and think they did a hellof a job with the techology they were working with in the earlier times..alot of innovation and special care went into that era...still makes me proud when i look at most dmd machines from that time....just a whole lotta fun stuck on 4 x silver or black legs really !
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Its just nice to open a brand new in box machine and know u wont have to fix anything or have any hassles for a decent while...its like a new car,
that would certainly be a good point, but on the other side of the coin it is enjoyable giving a machine a cleanup, but thats not every ones idea of fun either so having game new is certainly an upside
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yep, pulled apart dozens of machines, and its tedious after a while...not playing with a new one, (except adding Swinksys mirror blades and the occassional LED) is enough for me of late..lol
if the BNIB prices in Aust were a bit cheaper, there might be more of us who buy BNIB...even AMD having a finance deal like Joe from KJWHFUN has organised, would sell alot more new Sterns as well.....
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unfortunately the quality control can be shite, and the NIB pin can very well have issues straight off the box. Recent releases have provided a ton of issues for new buyers.
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unfortunately the quality control can be shite, and the NIB pin can very well have issues straight off the box. Recent releases have provided a ton of issues for new buyers.
I have had no issues with mine, very happy with my nib experiences and will do it again for sure.
I have had lots more problems with older 2nd hand games that need everything from board work to new ramps and switches...etc etc.
Some dealers sell absolute shite 2nd hand pins that need plenty of work, there are two 2nd hand pin dealers here in Brisbane that come to mind instantly.
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I still look at games like Twilight Zone, Indy Jones Widebody and think they did a hellof a job with the techology they were working with in the earlier times..alot of innovation and special care went into that era...still makes me proud when i look at most dmd machines from that time....just a whole lotta fun stuck on 4 x silver or black legs really !
Its still the same technology Cavey. The technology at the time was very common place... we werent in the dark ages. Problem is that the games you mention are still the same as the games churned out now. DMD was new at the time and was an innovation... its no longer an innovation, it is in fact a poor way to display graphics in todays market.
As for the game itself.. coils, micro switches etc, this has hardly changed in 100 years.. the micro replaced the leaf switch, optos negated the need for a protruding switch etc.
Hardly anything has changed since IJ and TZ
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Its still the same technology Cavey. The technology at the time was very common place... we werent in the dark ages. Problem is that the games you mention are still the same as the games churned out now. DMD was new at the time and was an innovation... its no longer an innovation, it is in fact a poor way to display graphics in todays market.
As for the game itself.. coils, micro switches etc, this has hardly changed in 100 years.. the micro replaced the leaf switch, optos negated the need for a protruding switch etc.
Hardly anything has changed since IJ and TZ
Plus you can then consider the ColorDMD (LCD) for titles such as MM, AFM and TAF and those 15-20 year old games have in effect "leapfrogged" the current Sterns. #@#
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yep, prob right Gav, not much has changed except that everything is slimmed down inside the backbox and under the playfield on BNIB of today machines.....
Now, 2 x very small boards replace 4 x large boards...wiring harness is apx half of the mass (or mess as it used to look like), everything is just minimsed and looks neater and tighter etc...making pins this way has become very efficient...
I personally love a good dot martix display with the new red led style compared to the old orange gas type...
Question - how else could u do a dot matrix display today if u dont use a led panel like Stern does....? !@#
I like the movement of the dot matrix and all the annimations and it can be easily seen when glancing up from the playfield..I would prefer if Stern used the larger DMD from the Sega games like Frankenstein or Batman Forever etc, but DMDs work very well..LCD is only the answer if u want movie stuff prior to hitting the start button, or if the game pauses, and the LCD plays a short clip, but during play it is too high to look up without losing the ball and its very big...so if u keep a led type DMD, except for making it bigger like the Sega one, and perhaps having it multi-coloured like the ones the other company is selling for Attack from mars and Medi-Evil Madness etc, what else could you do ?
*Also, only a very small amount of new Stern games (AC/DC LE) had a very small bell opto issue, and it was on less than 3 percent of LE machines...harly enough to stop Stern BNIB buyers to move away from buying BNIB.
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Its still the same technology Cavey. The technology at the time was very common place... we werent in the dark ages. Problem is that the games you mention are still the same as the games churned out now. DMD was new at the time and was an innovation... its no longer an innovation, it is in fact a poor way to display graphics in todays market.
As for the game itself.. coils, micro switches etc, this has hardly changed in 100 years.. the micro replaced the leaf switch, optos negated the need for a protruding switch etc.
Hardly anything has changed since IJ and TZ
Plus you can then consider the ColorDMD (LCD) for titles such as MM, AFM and TAF and those 15-20 year old games have in effect "leapfrogged" the current Sterns. #@#
That doesn't make them better games, what is the big deal with displays anyway? I hardly ever look at a display while playing.
Although I love MM, it is not worth the $$$ that is being asked for it today...nowhere near it. Afm and Taf...pass all day...over-rated.
I would rather have a new stern or a couple of other b/w titles for the same money any day.
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Its still the same technology Cavey. The technology at the time was very common place... we werent in the dark ages. Problem is that the games you mention are still the same as the games churned out now. DMD was new at the time and was an innovation... its no longer an innovation, it is in fact a poor way to display graphics in todays market.
As for the game itself.. coils, micro switches etc, this has hardly changed in 100 years.. the micro replaced the leaf switch, optos negated the need for a protruding switch etc.
Hardly anything has changed since IJ and TZ
Plus you can then consider the ColorDMD (LCD) for titles such as MM, AFM and TAF and those 15-20 year old games have in effect "leapfrogged" the current Sterns. #@#
That doesn't make them better games, what is the big deal with displays anyway? I hardly ever look at a display while playing.
Leapfrogged in terms of technology. Stern in terms of technology have always been the followers, not the leaders.
The problem is that until JJP came on the scene, Stern was the only player and a lot of pinheads over the last ten years have developed this "apologist" mentality of, "well at least they are still making pinballs".
Stern were literally handed a unique (a virtual monopoly) market position and they failed to take the initiative (instead choosing to become complacent).
Gameplay is another matter altogether and is purely subjective at best.
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Still...a a big issue over displays, nah!
:tumble:
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Its still the same technology Cavey. The technology at the time was very common place... we werent in the dark ages. Problem is that the games you mention are still the same as the games churned out now. DMD was new at the time and was an innovation... its no longer an innovation, it is in fact a poor way to display graphics in todays market.
As for the game itself.. coils, micro switches etc, this has hardly changed in 100 years.. the micro replaced the leaf switch, optos negated the need for a protruding switch etc.
Hardly anything has changed since IJ and TZ
Plus you can then consider the ColorDMD (LCD) for titles such as MM, AFM and TAF and those 15-20 year old games have in effect "leapfrogged" the current Sterns. #@#
That doesn't make them better games, what is the big deal with displays anyway? I hardly ever look at a display while playing.
Leapfrogged in terms of technology. Stern in terms of technology have always been the followers, not the leaders.
The problem is that until JJP came on the scene, Stern was the only player and pinheads over the last ten years developed this "apologist" mentality of, "well at least they are still making pinballs".
Stern were literally handed a unique (a virtual monopoly) market position and they failed to take the initiative (instead choosing to become complacent).
Gameplay is another matter altogether and is purely subjective at best.
i actually want to know what innovation stern have done since the days of 90's dmd's? its been over a decade and we have not seen any new innovation in pinball, the change from a 70's machine to a 80's machine is noticeable, a change from a 80's to a 90's machine is noticeable but from 90's to 00's and now we are into the 10's and there isnt an once of difference really. and thats over 20 years and we are stil lat the same level of inovation.
its not just a matter of difference of display cow, but look at the difference in games and layouts from reel's to alfa scores to dmd's. when you compare how the display is along with the games them selves they all changed together in most parts. and no upgrade really from the late nineties till now on either game layouts and display. i fail to see how a later stern is any better than a dmd of the 90's, they are the same machines and you have to agree that is the case cow corner. only difference is one is new and one is old, it would be like holden selling the same model como for 20 years and not changing it, and the only reason you could say to buy that car is because the old one is worn out not because it is any different.
lucky stern arent a phone company lol, you would be still walking around with brick sized mobiles from 1990, lol
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Its still the same technology Cavey. The technology at the time was very common place... we werent in the dark ages. Problem is that the games you mention are still the same as the games churned out now. DMD was new at the time and was an innovation... its no longer an innovation, it is in fact a poor way to display graphics in todays market.
As for the game itself.. coils, micro switches etc, this has hardly changed in 100 years.. the micro replaced the leaf switch, optos negated the need for a protruding switch etc.
Hardly anything has changed since IJ and TZ
Plus you can then consider the ColorDMD (LCD) for titles such as MM, AFM and TAF and those 15-20 year old games have in effect "leapfrogged" the current Sterns. #@#
That doesn't make them better games, what is the big deal with displays anyway? I hardly ever look at a display while playing.
Leapfrogged in terms of technology. Stern in terms of technology have always been the followers, not the leaders.
The problem is that until JJP came on the scene, Stern was the only player and pinheads over the last ten years developed this "apologist" mentality of, "well at least they are still making pinballs".
Stern were literally handed a unique (a virtual monopoly) market position and they failed to take the initiative (instead choosing to become complacent).
Gameplay is another matter altogether and is purely subjective at best.
i actually want to know what innovation stern have done since the days of 90's dmd's? its been over a decade and we have not seen any new innovation in pinball, the change from a 70's machine to a 80's machine is noticeable, a change from a 80's to a 90's machine is noticeable but from 90's to 00's and now we are into the 10's and there isnt an once of difference really. and thats over 20 years and we are stil lat the same level of inovation.
its not just a matter of difference of display cow, but look at the difference in games and layouts from reel's to alfa scores to dmd's. when you compare how the display is along with the games them selves they all changed together in most parts. and no upgrade really from the late nineties till now on either game layouts and display. i fail to see how a later stern is any better than a dmd of the 90's, they are the same machines and you have to agree that is the case cow corner. only difference is one is new and one is old, it would be like holden selling the same model como for 20 years and not changing it, and the only reason you could say to buy that car is because the old one is worn out not because it is any different.
lucky stern arent a phone company lol, you would be still walking around with brick sized mobiles from 1990, lol
Stern's mantra has always been to copy other manufacturer's ideas. That is fact. If there's no other company innovating pinball, then as far as Stern is concerned, that's the level they are happy to stay at. That's why Stern are sweating on JJP. New kid on the black has ideas, and it is only because of this that we will see Stern FORCED to copy their technology. That's Stern's track record.
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everyones a stern basher these days, but u have to look at what they had to deal with....
Pin2000 failed, it didnt keep pinball going for the biggest player, so was Stern to follow suit and try some INNOVATION like that and then closedown....or do u do what u know has worked for the last 100 years and stick to basics...? they stuck to basics and survived...
yes, some games like Avatar with 1 x ramp, and transformers was basic etc, i agree, the cost cutting days were not days/games to be proud of, but what else was Stern to do...Pinball that works is 2 x flippers (or 3 flippers) , pop bumpers, 2 or 3 ramps, a good DMD, plus some great shots n decent cabinet art etc etc...title is subjective, but they stuck to what works...what else can u do, except try something like Pin2000 and then lose even more of a very very limited market...
Look at WOZ, theres some innovation with the LCD, and its getting a warm at best response..who gives a crap about whats under the playfield, who cares, cause it dont make a difference if the gameplay, the shots, the flow isnt right...except the RGB lighting and clear inserts, its still the exact same format as any std other dmd pinball...its still got flippers, ramps etc etc etc...a LCD doesnt make or break innovation...and to a player, who will never see whats in a locked metal box under the playfield, the only thing about pinball he gets to rate, is gameplay..so innovation in the context everyone is raving about is bullshit in my mind...u can run a pinball machine on diamonds, or alien technology, no good unless the playfield works well with shots n flow, and its a decent modern title/subject matter...
Pin2000 was innovation..didnt help at all did it...what innovation are we missing...everyone keeps saying there a lack of innovatio, so OK, lets have the people who keep talking about innovation please list all the innovation and great ideas that are so easy to imagine, we should have had it ages ago, list away the innovation which has been staring us all in the face we should have included as a pinball industry ? !@# !@# !@# !@# !@# !@#
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I guess the only people stern have to keep happy are the people who buy from them.
%$%
If all this talk of innovation is limited to a display it is a pretty lame argument, a display does not make a great game, it may enhance it but does not make it great.
What else do you want done besides from wifi that some are asking for( which I can take or leave) and better build quality? I am all for better build quality for sure.
What is this BIG innovation or innovations that are needed to bring major revolution to pinball and does it need it?
Sure give me something new that I like and makes sense and I am all for it but it is pinball after all, we are not talking about re-inventing the wheel here
!@#
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yep, prob right Gav, not much has changed except that everything is slimmed down inside the backbox and under the playfield on BNIB of today machines.....
Now, 2 x very small boards replace 4 x large boards...wiring harness is apx half of the mass (or mess as it used to look like), everything is just minimsed and looks neater and tighter etc...making pins this way has become very efficient...
I personally love a good dot martix display with the new red led style compared to the old orange gas type...
Question - how else could u do a dot matrix display today if u dont use a led panel like Stern does....? !@#
I like the movement of the dot matrix and all the annimations and it can be easily seen when glancing up from the playfield..I would prefer if Stern used the larger DMD from the Sega games like Frankenstein or Batman Forever etc, but DMDs work very well..LCD is only the answer if u want movie stuff prior to hitting the start button, or if the game pauses, and the LCD plays a short clip, but during play it is too high to look up without losing the ball and its very big...so if u keep a led type DMD, except for making it bigger like the Sega one, and perhaps having it multi-coloured like the ones the other company is selling for Attack from mars and Medi-Evil Madness etc, what else could you do ?
*Also, only a very small amount of new Stern games (AC/DC LE) had a very small bell opto issue, and it was on less than 3 percent of LE machines...harly enough to stop Stern BNIB buyers to move away from buying BNIB.
Question - how else could u do a dot matrix display today if u dont use a led panel like Stern does....? !@#
I cant make them, but chances are i can regas them.
LCD is only the answer if u want movie stuff prior to hitting the start button, or if the game pauses, and the LCD plays a short clip, but during play it is too high to look up without losing the ball and its very big.
Mate.. thats ONE game.. WOZ. LCD can be any size you want it to be.. can be placed where you want it also. Theres no reason why it has to be the size of WOZ.. the one in your Iphone or Ipad is much smaller and also very very common... EASILY purchased. No reaon why the LCD cant be the same size and in the same position as your current DMD but graphics could be awesome.
LCD is cheaper than DMD now... too many components in DMD that all have to be integrated, each individually placed.
Had TAF, TZ,BSD etc had LCD instead of DMD then think of the imagery they could convey and just imagine what they would have done had they had this new technology.
The fact that Stern failed to introduce this is unfathomable.
WOZ is too large and the translite/ Backglass needs to come back with the LCD below... its a proven balance
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I guess the only people stern have to keep happy are the people who buy from them.
%$%
If all this talk of inovation is limited to a display it is a pretty lame argument, a display does not make a great game, it may enhance it but does not make it great.
What else do you want done besides from wifi that some are asking for( which I can take or leave) and better build quality? I am all for better build quality for sure.
What is this BIG inovation or inovations that are needed to bring major revolution to pinball and does it need it?
Sure give me something new that I like and makes sense and I am all for it but it is pinball after all, we are not talking about re-inventing the wheel here
!@#
Its not just about a display Daz... this is just a small example of the lack of idea fronted games that Stern have churned out over the years. And NO.. they dont just have to keep the people that buy Stern games happy... they desperately need to broaden their market as it wasnt so long back that Stern was floundering and needed a cash injection to keep going. This cash injection gave us better titles and possibly better design game wise ( always an arguable point) but Stern also failed to bring anything new to pinball and without that it wont be long before its floundering again trying to work out why the recipe doesnt work
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everyones a stern basher these days, but u have to look at what they had to deal with....
Pin2000 failed, it didnt keep pinball going for the biggest player, so was Stern to follow suit and try some INNOVATION like that and then closedown....or do u do what u know has worked for the last 100 years and stick to basics...? they stuck to basics and survived...
..snip..
Pin2000 was innovation..didnt help at all did it...what innovation are we missing...everyone keeps saying there a lack of innovatio, so OK, lets have the people who keep talking about innovation please list all the innovation and great ideas that are so easy to imagine, we should have had it ages ago, list away the innovation which has been staring us all in the face we should have included as a pinball industry ? !@# !@# !@# !@# !@# !@#
Stating facts does not mean anyone is a Stern basher.
As I've mentioned on another thread, Bally Williams simply moved their efforts into a more lucrative market. Pinball was secondary to them as the ENTIRE industry was fledgling. P2K was not an outright failure - it was simply BAD timing. ALL the other manufacturers had the insight to move on. Stern didn't. This is not Stern bashing at all. These are facts. Some may say Stern didn't have the insight to move into the gambling arena. Who knows, they may have done well. But the facts are that Stern have not innovated ANYTHING since the decline of the industry ??
Name something that Stern has brought to pinball since 1999 ?
Just so we are on the same page, Brett - I have two Sterns in my collection that I would NEVER part with, and BOTH have slight innovations for their time. But they are not DMDs.
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Point taken on lcd but bring what NEW, what is that you guys want besides from a lcd?
I am really interested to hear what is this big innovation that Stern should have done by now, that obviously many of you guys would have done if you were in charge?
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Point taken on lcd but bring what NEW, what is that you guys want besides from a lcd?
I am really interested to hear what is this big innovation that Stern should have done by now, that obviously many of you guys would have done if you were in charge?
+ 100
if its so easy, anyone who has ever said Stern follows or hasnt innovated should easily be able to come up with a list of things that we have all been missing since 1999...
I am all ears open....cause criticism without answers to me, isnt constructive criticism, its just knocking...which i find frustrating personally....espescially if u havent emailed Stern with these great ideas over the past decade...
Can anyone list this innovation that has been staring us all in the face but no one has done for 13 years....(and it has to be gameplay orientated, not new 2013 computer boards hidden in a metal box the player will never see or know about).. it has to be both visual or at least audible, or be something u can see, touch or experience...except a LCD, what is innovation for pinball...shld be very easy for people to list,,or is it ?? !@#
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Point taken on lcd but bring what NEW, what is that you guys want besides from a lcd?
I am really interested to hear what is this big innovation that Stern should have done by now, that obviously many of you guys would have done if you were in charge?
+ 100
if its so easy, anyone who has ever said Stern follows or hasnt innovated should easily be able to come up with a list of things that we have all been missing since 1999...
I am all ears open....cause criticism without answers to me, isnt constructive criticism, its just knocking...which i find frustrating personally....espescially if u havent emailed Stern with these great ideas over the past decade...
Can anyone list this innovation that has been staring us all in the face but no one has done for 13 years....(and it has to be gameplay orientated, not new 2013 computer boards hidden in a metal box the player will never see or know about).. it has to be both visual or at least audible, or be something u can see, touch or experience...except a LCD, what is innovation for pinball...shld be very easy for people to list,,or is it ?? !@#
I am not standing up for or knocking stern, I own two stern games, like a few others and detest many and will probably buy another new one from them but I really want to know about this BIG innovation that should be there by now.
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Point taken on lcd but bring what NEW, what is that you guys want besides from a lcd?
I am really interested to hear what is this big innovation that Stern should have done by now, that obviously many of you guys would have done if you were in charge?
+ 100
if its so easy, anyone who has ever said Stern follows or hasnt innovated should easily be able to come up with a list of things that we have all been missing since 1999...
I am all ears open....cause criticism without answers to me, isnt constructive criticism, its just knocking...which i find frustrating personally....espescially if u havent emailed Stern with these great ideas over the past decade...
Can anyone list this innovation that has been staring us all in the face but no one has done for 13 years....(and it has to be gameplay orientated, not new 2013 computer boards hidden in a metal box the player will never see or know about).. it has to be both visual or at least audible, or be something u can see, touch or experience...except a LCD, what is innovation for pinball...shld be very easy for people to list,,or is it ?? !@#
Why should I list something that has never been innovated ? How can I list something that does not even EXIST !@#
My era is the golden age of pinball, where innovation was the domain of ALL the manufacturers. That's what made the industry so successful. Can you list the Stern innovations since 1999 ? Can ANYONE list the innovative ideas that Stern have come up with that have impacted the industry since 1999..
I'm no Stern basher, as I stated, I have two CLASSIC Sterns in my collection and both have innovative ideas that made them unique and collectible.
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Point taken on lcd but bring what NEW, what is that you guys want besides from a lcd?
I am really interested to hear what is this big innovation that Stern should have done by now, that obviously many of you guys would have done if you were in charge?
+ 100
if its so easy, anyone who has ever said Stern follows or hasnt innovated should easily be able to come up with a list of things that we have all been missing since 1999...
I am all ears open....cause criticism without answers to me, isnt constructive criticism, its just knocking...which i find frustrating personally....espescially if u havent emailed Stern with these great ideas over the past decade...
Can anyone list this innovation that has been staring us all in the face but no one has done for 13 years....(and it has to be gameplay orientated, not new 2013 computer boards hidden in a metal box the player will never see or know about).. it has to be both visual or at least audible, or be something u can see, touch or experience...except a LCD, what is innovation for pinball...shld be very easy for people to list,,or is it ?? !@#
Why should I list something that has never been innovated ? How can I list something that does not even EXIST !@#
My era is the golden age of pinball, where innovation was the domain of ALL the manufacturers. That's what made the industry so successful. Can you list the Stern innovations since 1999 ? Can ANYONE list the innovative ideas that Stern have come up with that have impacted the industry since 1999..
I'm no Stern basher, as I stated, I have two CLASSIC Sterns in my collection and both have innovative ideas that made them unique and collectible.
this is easy,ill list some ideas for them.
hmmm 2012 every thing is networked isnt it?? even my tv is networked and my blueray player is networked. why havent they figured out with every game being produced for consoles and networked systems being the most popular why a pinball machine cant be networked and why you cant verse another player on their machine on the other side of the world live???
this is the sort of thing that would make pinball awesome and popular.
if they were really smart they can charge for the use of their server like xbox, playstation, world of war craft and any other networked system,
i recon its a bit simple for a pinball to only have one game on it, why cant their be room for more than one set of rules?,
atm its only easy or hard why cant there be different rules? with different games using the same theme and what is on the playfield,and you choose what style of game you wont to play?
It seems they are home use mostly why not have that option?, certainly make the game fun for a longer time, if they worry about revenue then sell the extra rules, and people pay and download them.
im no genius but stuff like that makes sense, by only looking around my living room for ideas.
making just money of the machine being purchased is dumb these days, would apple be as rich as they are if they only sold iphones with out itunes and app stores??
how awesome would it be to have a 4 player game against people here?, live in real time and their scores on your game so you know what you are fighting against, and you could have full death match style games where you fight it out, or take turns like a traditional game of pinball.
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Stern in 2000 tried the concept of linking games to other machines once before with their prototype 'Golden Cue'. Never eventuated.
Since then the only piece of innovation that is worthy of the title 'innovation'; Stewies Playfield from Family Guy.
It was novel, it was perfect for the theme, worked very well and well constructed. But again it is not a progression for others to follow, I thought it was different and innovative for that title alone.
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Can anyone list what stern didnt innovate since 1999 is the better question.
And that's my point. If stern are not innovators, if they aren't a company that hasn't designed things to the fullest, like they are a letdown or are just followers etc etc etc, or stern hasn't done the best that they could have done, or should have done, then I think any person who bags them or knocks them should explain specifically what it is they should have done.....but , it seems so far no one can...which is what I thought would happen.
Personally, unless someone can come up with the things that stern should have done, I don't think it is fair or balanced to bag them...it's all good for people in general to be skeptics, but its not constructive or even educational unless someone posts the things they have missed...if no one can come up with a list of how they didn't innovate, then they can't be labelled non innovators...
This isn't specifically aimed at u nino, not at all, it's for anyone who bags stern to rise to the occasion and show anyone and everyone how easy it is to run a pinball company from a computer desk a million miles away by telling n sharing what stern could have done...and wifi is good to incl as a innovation etc, but u have to also understand they couldn't do it thirteen yrs ago, cause wifi etc is only been around a very short time etc..so any innovation ideas also have to be proposed using the date of design or when it was invented into the equation...
Seems to me that stern isn't lacking in innovation at all then til I see the lists of what was supposedly missing that was so easy for us keyboard designers to include which no one has so far...challenge is still up for anyone to innovate away with that huge non existent list.lol. People shod be happy for all the good stern have done versus always saying what they haven't done without listing what ideas weren't included....people will miss stern a lot if they were to close, and its only when it's gone do u realize just what u had.....I get pissed when people bag stern, especially when I know they couldn't have done better than stern......and I wonder if any of the stern knockers ever emailed stern some constructive ideas and any better ideas..I know I have, and they wrote straight back n thanked me for it...
I am passionate about building pinball up, not knocking it down, cause these days it seems everyone is a knocker. I could be wrong...I am sure every person at stern works their ass off to try n please us pinheads, they must feel like crap when they read all the critics posts saying they could have done much better..then stern asks how, and no one can give them a example.....that must be frustrating to say the least.lol
Nothing wrong with a healthy debate.
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Personally, unless someone can come up with the things that stern should have done, I don't think it is fair or balanced to bag them...it's all good for people in general to be skeptics, but its not constructive or even educational unless someone posts the things they have missed...if no one can come up with a list of how they didn't innovate, then they can't be labelled non innovators...
You see Cavey, Stern just don't innovate...... *)*
(http://images.smh.com.au/2010/03/05/1195459/mindreadingcomputermain-420x0.jpg)
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I just pissed my pants I laughed so dam hard.....
A mod for people without arms, of course *)*
Wow...he watches too much Star Trek.
A poster child for someone u don't admit to knowing....he was just hired by JJP.
He is the HEAD of design over there (boom boom)...can it get any worse.... @.@
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I suppose at the end if the day Stern is still in business while others are not, they most likely knew that innovation probably won't sell anymore wooden boxes for 7k so they stuck to a proven idea and its worked like it or not, I also think that large LCD screens isn't the answer but small LCD the same size as today's DMD may work but no matter how much innovation there is selling pinballs to homes is a tough market. Top popular titles lately has put some money in the bank for stern so hopefully there with us for a few more years.
Peter
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Cavey... dont take it on board mate... its not Stern bashing as you call it, its a general impression and boredom with Sterns M.O. Since ACDC came out Stern owners have become very sensitive people and they seem to take the " im not that enthused about it actually" posts with greater relevance than the " if it had tits it would be perfect" posts.
Its difficult to list whats NOT been done but seeing as you have thrown down the gauntlet, ill try to rise to the challenge somewhat.
Heres what Stern could have done .
Wi Fi ( been around for a good few years, its even free in McDonalds and is the way online gaming works. For Stern to ignore this is sheer stupidity.. quite obvious its the way the world is going and it was up to JJP to bring it to the fore)
LCD... reasons have already been flogged out but it could also incorporate touch screen etc.
EL vinyl.. saw this some 15 years ago... its been put onto beer taps, V8 car bonnets etc and looks sensational.... maybe used for certain plastics?
Headphone jack.
RGB lighting
MP3 programmable sound
Isolated components like bumpers, slings etc ( see what Mike Homepin is doing...EASY maintenance).
Now im not saying that Stern had to embrace any of the few things above but the fact that they never even really made any effort is what sticks out about Stern.
Heres what they did instead.
Plastic aprons
Low res cabinet graphics
wobbly toys
Mick Jagger moving across the Pf ( how anyone thought that was a good idea is beyond me).
But its not all bad i guess.... i DO like the mini PFs on games like SHREK. BTDK drew me in and i thought it was a good game until i realised its impossible to lose the ball between the flippers and after 20 mins i gave the game away to the little kid watching. Im still wondering why the windows to a lower PF are still the same shape as they were fro Black Hole and Haunted House... it was ugly then and still is now.... it could be ANY shape!
Many many things have been tried in pinball that never became mainstream and its what makes certain era's or titles great.
The backglasses in Black Hole.... Empire Strikes Back ... Spirit.
Zipper Flippers
Power Ball on TZ ( wether you like it or not... at least its something a little different)
Banana flippers
Magna save
etc etc etc... none of which became the norm for pinball but it shows manufaturers throwing ideas out there to create interest and see what sticks.
Stern just dont seem to do this and thats the point us " bashers" are making
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Stern in 2000 tried the concept of linking games to other machines once before with their prototype 'Golden Cue'. Never eventuated.
Since then the only piece of innovation that is worthy of the title 'innovation'; Stewies Playfield from Family Guy.
It was novel, it was perfect for the theme, worked very well and well constructed. But again it is not a progression for others to follow, I thought it was different and innovative for that title alone.
A concept innovated by Bally Williams in 1997 with NBA Fastbreak.
The "Stewie's Playfield" concept was worth following up. I'm sure Gottlieb thought it was a good idea on Haunted House.
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Just innovate me a Avengers Stern, I couldn't care less about wifi and other shit just don't f**k this game up!
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Stern are doing good things with pinball. The idea that I'm a "Stern basher" is simply untrue and is playing the man and not the ball. I've pointed this out or more than one occasion.
Can anyone list what stern didnt innovate since 1999 is the better question.
They didn't innovate pinball from 1999 to today. It is impossible to list something that does not exist. Stern have not innovated anything of note since 1999. I'm still waiting for one innovation. Maybe USB firmware updates ?
I am passionate about building pinball up, not knocking it down, cause these days it seems everyone is a knocker. I could be wrong...I am sure every person at stern works their ass off to try n please us pinheads, they must feel like crap when they read all the critics posts saying they could have done much better..then stern asks how, and no one can give them a example.....that must be frustrating to say the least.lol
We are ALL passionate about this. I'm merely stating what I believe to be complacency on Stern's behalf. I guess if the only cars produced were Fords, we would have no point of reference. Ford dictate the level of quality and the direction of the product. Stern have churned out the same product since 1999. I'm glad they are still around and I would LOVE to own a NIB Stern - but nothing grabs me as interesting (yet). It is interesting that this debate was started because of WOZ and JJP's innovative ideas - The large LCD - Which incidentally, I don't like (the size is too big).. The new kid on the block brings innovation to the table, and there is no doubt Stern are under pressure.
Critics - EVERY single product released on the market has critics. What's Stern's problem was that it didn't listen to critics. It just churned out title after title. ONLY recently have they recognized the home market is now their target market. It is only within the last 12 months that they have employed designers that made successful games in the 90's. Two years ago they were cutting down the features of games to save costs.
I think they finally listened to critics and that's what has been the turnaround for them. AC/DC is the best pin released in 20 years. But critics were demanding Stern release a music pin (AC/DC, KISS, Metallica) 5 years ago, but they didn't listen, and then they brought out Rolling Stones (the biggest flop in 20 years).
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Pinball is all about what happens when you push the flipper button. LCD screen in WOZ adds nothing to gameplay. RFM was real innovation, it wasnt a flop, but it came too late! We have seen no real innovation since, and JJP offers none either. Yes it's wonderful that there are new makers coming onto the scene, it's the juice pinball needs to advance. What interests me, is an LCD as the playfield, a mix of virtual pin/real pin, with a real ball, and a changing playfield as you progress into the game. That in my mind, will be the innovation that takes pinball to the next step.
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Pinball is all about what happens when you push the flipper button. LCD screen in WOZ adds nothing to gameplay. RFM was real innovation, it wasnt a flop, but it came too late! We have seen no real innovation since, and JJP offers none either. Yes it's wonderful that there are new makers coming onto the scene, it's the juice pinball needs to advance. What interests me, is an LCD as the playfield, a mix of virtual pin/real pin, with a real ball, and a changing playfield as you progress into the game. That in my mind, will be the innovation that takes pinball to the next step.
Yup! Touch screen playfields that track the ball and give graphics when a sling is hit etc... hang on.. isnt someone doing just that?
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinballnewscom-has-an-update-for-heighway-pinballs-circes-animal-house
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For the record, Nino is not a Stern basher and I have not, and am not saying that at all, otherwise I would have stated that clearly...and i am not saying that because you are a moderator, but because its true..if anything Nino has been even handed with his feedback about Stern, and hasnt been unduly negative at all. So I dont want u thinking this debate/difference of opinion is pointed at you specifically Nino, which its definately not, its just me being the devils advocate and defending/arguing passionately for Sterns achievements versus against. If I have made u feel singled out, I sincerely apologise matey cause its not what i was intending, and keeping u n Nick from wanting to throw out the peace pipe is not what i want at all..lol Nino is not a stern basher.. but i do want to see you doing the Stern factory tour and I am buying u a Stern shirt for Xmas.lol
And even if anyone is a stern knocker or basher, its not a crime, merely a opinion which can only help a healthy debate to get the juices and ideas flowing...which all posters have....but it does irk me, cause AC/DC and X Men have brought alot of joy to my collection so to speak, and everytime Stern cops criticism without new ideas also put up to help, I think Stern loses sales and its a shame that pin players or collectors might be swayed and not by one of the recent most excellent titles...
yes, the cost cutting days were stupid, and i remember posting that at the time, cause Gary diod a talk to his dealers at a conference and he opened up to the 100 plus strong crowd with astatement like "you guys are not going to like the changes we are implementing" which I thought at the time was commercial suicide from a business owners point of view. Not only was it unneccessary, but it achieved nothing and alienated/lost more market and sales...those days are over with AC/DC and X Men, and Avengers shld follow suit...
What i dont want to see is the base DNA of pinball change too much at all, cause then its not pinball anymore...
Does anyone like the current format and style of games like the overall base design of the modern Stern pinny like AC/DC n X Men etc..forget the subject matter, but I thought that base design and style is what pinball really is...sure, add a few leds or RBG, maybe a small LCD with movie like graphics, but how far do u go before its like Pin2000, which to me, was just too much of a hybrid...maybe a hybrid design every 5 or 10, but not every machine or that base DNA changes and we lose what we have come to love n enjoy...JJP might be great for pinball, but if these things start to morph into machines that are no longer pure pinball, its all over red rover, and JJP might be the beginning of the end, versus the new era...food for thought.
P.S - that LCD digitised playfield idea/design etc, I think is an absolute shocker, an abomination...u might as well just buy a computer game and be done with it, its like a blow up doll, far from the real thing...so far infact, could u even call that pinball, more like simulated pinball....yuk yuk yuk..its like having a robot for a wife..its just not the same or even close...cyborg pinball versus the game we love..that will be the end of pinball if everyone goes that way.lol Then the pinball machines might take over like Terminators,lol @.@ @.@
Add porno LCD graphics to that virtual pinball idea and u might change some peoples minds... #@# #@# only the young people ofcourse, I mean us old farts wouldnt buy pinballs with big tits on it would we.... *.* *%* *%* *%*
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Pinball is all about what happens when you push the flipper button. LCD screen in WOZ adds nothing to gameplay. RFM was real innovation, it wasnt a flop, but it came too late! We have seen no real innovation since, and JJP offers none either. Yes it's wonderful that there are new makers coming onto the scene, it's the juice pinball needs to advance. What interests me, is an LCD as the playfield, a mix of virtual pin/real pin, with a real ball, and a changing playfield as you progress into the game. That in my mind, will be the innovation that takes pinball to the next step.
Yup! Touch screen playfields that track the ball and give graphics when a sling is hit etc... hang on.. isnt someone doing just that?
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinballnewscom-has-an-update-for-heighway-pinballs-circes-animal-house
that's innovation that would leave Stern behind, allthough traditionally they soon follow suit
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For the record, Nino is not a Stern basher and I have not, and am not saying that at all, otherwise I would have stated that clearly...and i am not saying that because you are a moderator, but because its true..if anything Nino has been even handed with his feedback about Stern, and hasnt been unduly negative at all. So I dont want u thinking this debate/difference of opinion is pointed at you specifically Nino, which its definately not, its just me being the devils advocate and defending/arguing passionately for Sterns achievements versus against. If I have made u feel singled out, I sincerely apologise matey cause its not what i was intending, and keeping u n Nick from wanting to throw out the peace pipe is not what i want at all..lol Nino is not a stern basher.. but i do want to see you doing the Stern factory tour and I am buying u a Stern shirt for Xmas.lol
And even if anyone is a stern knocker or basher, its not a crime, merely a opinion which can only help a healthy debate to get the juices and ideas flowing...which all posters have....but it does irk me, cause AC/DC and X Men have brought alot of joy to my collection so to speak, and everytime Stern cops criticism without new ideas also put up to help, I think Stern loses sales and its a shame that pin players or collectors might be swayed and not by one of the recent most excellent titles...
yes, the cost cutting days were stupid, and i remember posting that at the time, cause Gary diod a talk to his dealers at a conference and he opened up to the 100 plus strong crowd with astatement like "you guys are not going to like the changes we are implementing" which I thought at the time was commercial suicide from a business owners point of view. Not only was it unneccessary, but it achieved nothing and alienated/lost more market and sales...those days are over with AC/DC and X Men, and Avengers shld follow suit...
What i dont want to see is the base DNA of pinball change too much at all, cause then its not pinball anymore...
Does anyone like the current format and style of games like the overall base design of the modern Stern pinny like AC/DC n X Men etc..forget the subject matter, but I thought that base design and style is what pinball really is...sure, add a few leds or RBG, maybe a small LCD with movie like graphics, but how far do u go before its like Pin2000, which to me, was just too much of a hybrid...maybe a hybrid design every 5 or 10, but not every machine or that base DNA changes and we lose what we have come to love n enjoy...JJP might be great for pinball, but if these things start to morph into machines that are no longer pure pinball, its all over red rover, and JJP might be the beginning of the end, versus the new era...food for thought.
P.S - that LCD digitised playfield idea/design etc, I think is an absolute shocker, an abomination...u might as well just buy a computer game and be done with it, its like a blow up doll, far from the real thing...so far infact, could u even call that pinball, more like simulated pinball....yuk yuk yuk..its like having a robot for a wife..its just not the same or even close...cyborg pinball versus the game we love..that will be the end of pinball if everyone goes that way.lol Then the pinball machines might take over like Terminators,lol @.@ @.@
Add porno LCD graphics to that virtual pinball idea and u might change some peoples minds... #@# #@# only the young people ofcourse, I mean us old farts wouldnt buy pinballs with big tits on it would we.... *.* *%* *%* *%*
^^^
All good Brett. I will be assisting Leo from Cashbox this weekend for the Stern AC/DC comp - I have no problems promoting Stern or JJP. Whoever remakes a KISS pinball will have my money, that's for sure ^^^
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Stern in 2000 tried the concept of linking games to other machines once before with their prototype 'Golden Cue'. Never eventuated.
Since then the only piece of innovation that is worthy of the title 'innovation'; Stewies Playfield from Family Guy.
It was novel, it was perfect for the theme, worked very well and well constructed. But again it is not a progression for others to follow, I thought it was different and innovative for that title alone.
maybe they should revisit it,, theirs wifi and plenty of other good networking systems now. and they need to put it in to production to see if its going to be successful or not, but certainly joining games together is going to be a great feature. i remember pre xbox thinking why do i need a console joined to the internet and versing people world wide, games are fun any ways. then when i bought one i relised how much more fun the experience is when its more socially interactive. i think this is a concept that is coming to the party late for pinball
but i do recon we are paying allot of money for one game, and if the game is networked and online, you could purchase new sets of rules for more than one game on your pinball, have different rules using the same theme and playfield of course, but the rules are different and you can select what rules you wish to play, and also means stern make money after the date of sale also, plus you can pay for network sub******ions to use their server for online gaming on your pinball.
there is more room for revenue for stern and then people will have more than one use for their pinball machine they spent good money on.
one way they could make an old dmd look old and outdated is by moving in that direction, it would be like comparing an xbox360 to a nintendo entertainment system.
P.S - that LCD digitised playfield idea/design etc, I think is an absolute shocker, an abomination...u might as well just buy a computer game and be done with it, its like a blow up doll, far from the real thing...so far infact, could u even call that pinball, more like simulated pinball....yuk yuk yuk..its like having a robot for a wife..its just not the same or even close...cyborg pinball versus the game we love..that will be the end of pinball if
i tend to agree with that cavey.
as for the large lcd whilest the debate about seeing it whilest playing is absolutely correct, i think it does need to be big, it would make it attractive to sites if you can put up adverts on it when the game isnt playing. you could advertise things from your business on it, i hope they have room for that on woz. i also think it would be usefull in attract mode, but it seems JJP is using the screen as a diagnostic tool as well so the space would be handy for that, and it looks like it has menu's and other things for pinball, rather then using the small dmd to go through your setting one option at a time which every one knows is a pain, it does take a while to go through settings using the small dmd, it would be handy with the big lcd to have allot more displayed in an actual menu. there was vid in the woz thread that showed the lcd being used with the diagnostics which looked usefull.
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This is a useful debate in my opinion! It is useful because someone may come up with a great idea which we could see in a machine in the future.
When I think about innovation I think about totally new ideas, or applying old ideas in a new way.
A totally new idea would be something to aim at that is not a ramp, target, loop, spinner, captive ball and so on, but something completely new. Totally new ideas can be difficult to think up! But it has been done in the past, is happening right now and will continue on happening in the future. There are heaps of pinball innovations like this. Stern has done nothing I can think of that is totally new.
Innovation by applying old ideas in a new way would be, for example, using a different type of sensor or method to know where the ball is other than a mechanical switch or an optical switch - for example, using a laser array in place of a switch matrix. I don't think Stern has done anything that innovative either. The ship on Pirates of the Caribbean is this sort of innovation in its least innovative form, as it is dressing up a bunch of switches as a ship which is also a collapsible playfield toy. Mousin' Around, for example, takes the idea of a ball lock and drop target and merges them into the one feature to produce a ball lock that drops and holds the ball under the playfield until released. What has Stern given us?
Having said that, they are still alive as a company and are making pinball machines.
I would buy a POTC at the right price, and have nothing against Stern.
However, I think it is important that someone be thinking about how to innovate within pinball so that it still feels modern and attempts to engage a new and younger audience, and to provide easier maintenance.
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well said, very good points...
rather than innovating via changing flipper switches from old contact types to say optos, and then moving on to another style of switch, i think the innovation we are looking for isnt efficiency innovation, but NEW GAMEPLAY FEATURE innovation...
thats what interests me, and probably everyone who wants to see new and exciting tricks/toys/features/weird stuff on playfields....that really affect and enhance gameplay...what can we all think up...whats something really cool that hasnt been done before, or something we can modify or change that has been done before...its not an easy answer...i will have to exercise my grey matter and think of something as well....
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well said, very good points...
rather than innovating via changing flipper switches from old contact types to say optos, and then moving on to another style of switch, i think the innovation we are looking for isnt efficiency innovation, but NEW GAMEPLAY FEATURE innovation...
thats what interests me, and probably everyone who wants to see new and exciting tricks/toys/features/weird stuff on playfields....that really affect and enhance gameplay...what can we all think up...whats something really cool that hasnt been done before, or something we can modify or change that has been done before...its not an easy answer...i will have to exercise my grey matter and think of something as well....
Ive always thought a feature where magnets would turn on during a 5 ball multiball and freeze all balls to the side of the playfield ( wherever they are placfd at the time). You are then given another 4 balls to try and knock them free. If not done in the allotted time then all balls are released giving you a total of 9 balls coming at you at once
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Stern needs to get rid of those hideous pattern inserts - who too finds these outdated?
Why not just make the inserts a frosted no pattern look - like the pinnies of yesteryear.
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http://www.sternpinball.com/Games/pinball-redemption-kit.aspx
Just released.
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Well.....
Looks like new won out... Getin me a Metallica pin in June...
Yew....
Has anyone been playing one and what did you think??
:)
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Well.....
Looks like new won out... Getin me a Metallica pin in June...
Yew....
Has anyone been playing one and what did you think??
:)
I didn't enjoy playing it as much as I thought I would.
Game looks great sounds good and plays sort of meh imo.
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I went and played the pro at Timezone on the goldy and to be honest its crap against the LE.. Didnt think it would have made such a diference but there you go.. what does everyone thing of the new pin on offer?
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Hi Guys
I played Metallica at Pinfest and loved it #*#
It was on comp night and I won that game I really liked the in line drops it played fast and smooth great game Howzat
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Hmm, used to drive a Torana, now drive a WRX. No way would I think about going back to dinosours!
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Hmm, used to drive a Torana, now drive a WRX. No way would I think about going back to dinosours!
hey don't knock the toranas. I still drive one :lol
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Hmm, used to drive a Torana, now drive a WRX. No way would I think about going back to dinosours!
hey don't knock the toranas. I still drive one :lol
Let's see how much your WRX is worth in 20 years time, my moneys on the Torana
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From pinballs to cars...
Does the conversation go that way often?
Many rev heads round here?
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From pinballs to cars...
Does the conversation go that way often?
Many rev heads round here?
I too drive a WRX. They are a common car for people with nerdy hobbies/interests :) Any Torana that still exists in good condition in 20 years time would have had more than a WRX worth of money spent on it to keep it that way. Not that there's anything wrong with that!