new innovation in pinball

[pinball god]

This may be a negative thread on my behalf, but I'm starting to be a little bit that way. Lots of new releases and some are fun, but a lot of same ol' same ol' stuff. Two ramps, a loop, pops, bash toy, game done.

Am I being a little too harsh here?

I'd love a nib but am really hoping for something new and special, and by special I don't know what. So I am not helping the problem. Pin2000 tried something, tz had the power field, haunted house the three layers, humpty dumpty flippers, tom/pinball magic nice use of magnets etc.

The only game remotely catching my eye is pinball circus.

Is there anything in the wings or you can suggest that would really add to and lift the current pinball experience? By that I mean something that is realistic and not a teleporter or something from scifi.

Just a thought.

[pinnies4me]

I think part of the problem is the need/desire to keep costs in check. Look at the three games you mentioned for their innovation - P2K, TZ and HH, and think about the bill of materials for all those games.

I am not saying that something innovative needs such a high BoM, and the guys developing a game with an LCD in the playfield that tracks the ball comes to mind, but cost is most likely one of the big issues.

Having said that, the lack of full-scale competition for Stern for the last fifteen years is more likely the biggest factor IMO. I think they have lifted their game recently in response to most JJP and the possibility that some of the boutique start ups might actually get a game out. But as you say - it is the same with a different twist (most different artwork when its all said and done).

Even when B/W was completely dominant in the 1990's, I firmly believe that the reason B/W came up with so much that was innovative was that they had several independent design groups, who in effect competed with each other to come up with the next game to get green-lighted for the line. That internal competition could very well have been more intense than competing against actual competitor companies.

[Pop Bumper Pete]

as you say, most Sterns are similar in the way they are laid out, at least wrestlemainia seems to add the ring to the playfield

but the new guys seem to be trying to bringing something new to the layouts

we (the buyers) want something new, but we also want reliable

[pinball god]

Forgot about the ball tracking system. That may be cool. The ring in wrestlemania is good too but reminds me a little of the shadow. I'm really keen to see something revolutionary like moving 3d targets that explode and you need to chase and aim for (similar to p2000 but better). The tracking system may be the answer.

One other thing I am tired of and sterns don't have too much of this is the stop/start rubbish. I love my tz but am now realising how much of my game time is spent waiting around. Maybe thats why my space invaders pinball get a fair bit of play????   

[Pop Bumper Pete]

you can add al the bling you want (exploding targets) but that does not make up for a badly designed game

I am not a fan of the LCD on the backbox, or a LCD under a playfield. Id rather see 4 or 5 smaller displays , either mounted under a playfield or above targets, that tell me what to shoot for

I liked where CV mounted the DMD, it is easier to see it when playing a game

[GORGAR 1]

Pinball makes bugger all money on site and it's really a home use product now ! So it's to risky for company's to go out on a limb and produce a costly product when they maybe only sell 2000 units. Yes they had innovation in the hey day of pinball because operators demanded it and they made money which resulted in sales so Bally/Williams could put it back into development that's how I see it. 10-15 years time pinball will probably be gone lol

[oldskool1969]

you need more system 11's  they have everything you wanted 
I know what you mean by the way, I am hoping WNBJM is my saviour

[pinnies4me]

It doesn't always take a lot of $ in all cases to come up with something new.

I was looking at Capcom's Kingpin, and thinking about the start of multiball - the balls are locked under the playfield via a ramp which raises to reveal the ball lock (an up/down ramp is not new, but having the ball lock work that way is), and then when multiball starts - the balls are "shot" at the player (in keeping with the theme) from a trap door that is under the playfield, so the balls shoot towards the flippers. Very innovative, but two extremely simple mechanisms accomplish this at little cost.

[GORGAR 1]

Metallica has an awesome ball lock :) balls can be viewed under pf in the coffin lock before MB starts and combined with the hammer and magnet it's a very cool feature.

[pinnies4me]

Metallica has an awesome ball lock :) balls can be viewed under pf in the coffin lock before MB starts and combined with the hammer and magnet it's a very cool feature.

You're right, liked that when playing Daniel's game.

[swinks]

I see where you are coming from Rob and must agree that I like the idea of the sling shot flippers and slightly more exposed pops in the wrestle mania but would love to see more innovation in design for game play and of maintenance.

I like that concept Nick and think it would be cool if there wasn't even a shooter lane but balls launched from your idea, or from the centre of the apron - with one negative that it sort of removes the skill shot.


At the moment I have had alot of enjoyment in doodling game ideas and 3d modelling to design my own game to one day build. I like a fan layout but I want the game different in the way of rules and have a exposed pop for randomness and hopefully a few fresh mechs / toys. I like the idea of instead of shooting for this lane and ramp x times to get a goals that you have to hit the pops x 50 to achieve a particular goal and visit the inlanes to the flippers (to spell certain inserts) to activate a particular mech - this way you can play the game differently every time and the game evolves as you play but then use the ramps and loop shots in the way of a track to follow to get to the next game feature release.

I designed a removeable shooter lane piece as a way of being able to replaceable shooter lane to replace when it is looking sad, or change out to a colour to suit a theme or have it made in a clear or translucent material so you could have a lighting feature underneath it.

[pinnies4me]

I like that concept Nick and think it would be cool if there wasn't even a shooter lane but balls launched from your idea, or from the centre of the apron - with one negative that it sort of removes the skill shot.

Agree re losing the skill shot, but maybe a topic for another thread - how many *really* good skill shots are there?

[swinks]

I like that concept Nick and think it would be cool if there wasn't even a shooter lane but balls launched from your idea, or from the centre of the apron - with one negative that it sort of removes the skill shot.

Agree re losing the skill shot, but maybe a topic for another thread - how many *really* good skill shots are there?

Baywatch had 3 different ones and if you were able to get all three in one game you got a special bonus, I ever did it once.

[Caveoftreasures]

Pinball has to be very very careful or you run the risk of losing what is the essential DNA or personality of its origins.
Pulling a ball shooter to launch a ball is old fashioned and unique to pinball. Pressing a button to launch a ball is just like any video game. So whilst button launch is fine (like ACDC and many others from times gone past) I like to see a pinball have both a shooter rod first and preferably both, but not a button launch only.

Screens built into playfields that track balls, why bother, boring. My eyes can track a ball fine.
Large LCD in the backbox like JJP, fine. DMD screens like Stern, fine.
LCD inbedded in a playfield, why bother. I want to play pinball, I don't want to watch a TV screen in a Playfield whilst I am trying to track balls.

Sterns games are not even close to being all the same to me at all.
Play ACDC, then X Men, then Star Trek then Mustang, then Metallica and The Walking Dead and they all play and feel differently. What Stern is doing now is working fine. What JJP is doing now is working fine.
But go a lot further than where we are now, and you risk losing the core base of pinball fans.
I want to see enhancements and improvements, but definately not "major changes" to pinball.
The JJP LCD is an enhancement for example. But there is no use having the worlds best colour LCD if the playfield shots and flow are lacking. I will swap a colourful LCD for a nice playfield layout any day of the week. I think WOZ is excellent. Has a bit of everything. But I worry about the hardware and screen longevity. It might run forever ?

I hope Gary Stern stays at the head of Stern because he is a purist. He won't allow it to go to far too quick in my opinion. Replace him with some younger new bloke and we might have Stern turning into a video game company. Pin2000 was something very different, and good to have in your collection because they are such a contrast, but I am glad all of pinball didn't go that way. When the Pin2000 games were turned off, they weren't a thing of beauty to look at. Looking at my X Men Pro whilst I am typing this, the ramps flow like rivers and the whole playfield is pure pinball artwork at its best. Just nice to look at even when turned off.

The next five years will be exciting for pinball. 95 percent of the boutique companies will fail.
Stern and JJP will be here and only the strongest and smartest will be here to tempt us with their merchandise.
I bet a lot more companies ask Stern to build their machines. I see a lot of popular remakes on the horizon.

Imagine buying a brand spanking new Twilightzone or a brand new Circus Voltaire or whatever tickles your fancy.
If the profit is there and the affordability is there for the consumer, who knows what might resurface.

But changing pinball too much won't get me spending my dollars on BNIB titles.
Half of the battle is finding a title or subject that interests you.
If u hate wrestling, and play the newest WWE offering from Stern, even though it might have a great playfield layout with very cool shots and great flow, it's not going to appeal if u hate wrestling. But if u love wrestling, then you like the feel of the game, then it's likely you will buy and add to your collection.

I loved the Transformers subject matter but didn't like the feel of the game so I didn't buy. But the next 5 titles I loved the subject matter and loved the feel of the games.

It all gets down to money as well. Some people are happy to splurge 6 or 7 grand or more, some will never spend this sort of money, regardless of income.
But watching someone walk into your games room and say WOW is what makes it worthwhile to me.
I am more than happy with where pinball is at right now. The only thing I fear is too much change.

[Cursed]

I am keen to see and play the P3 system, I like the idea of a screen in the playfield and the interchange system seems logical as well.

Mind you I don't think it is the future of pinball but I would like one game like that in my collection.

Long vid but worth watching, skip to 9.00 if you are impatient to see something that I think is a great idea.