Author Topic: Sloppy sloppy seconds ! Yuk. Sited pins play like a bowl of custard !  (Read 1499 times)

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Offline Retropin

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Is this one of them Stern bashing threads?... im so sick of the bashing.. so so sick... !!!

Please don't help another thread go to shit :)

I wasn't..

Offline GORGAR 1

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Is this one of them Stern bashing threads?... im so sick of the bashing.. so so sick... !!!

Please don't help another thread go to shit :)

I wasn't..

Ok cool but I'd love to hear some stories of how regularly ops maintained games back in your day :) not saying your old lol but how different was it? Where ops only interested in coin and not maintaining games? Where coin boxes emptied them Pf was wiped over? I couldn't imagine they would spend much time on a game as there would have been so many sighted games the tech guy just wouldn't have time?

Offline Retropin

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LOL!! Whats old?? Im 48 and will turn 49 this year.
I didn't have " a day" and the only way I would know how ops maintained their machines is by some of the operator handbooks ive acquired from some of the games ive bought.
I do have a couple of these from the EM/SS period ( 78-79etc) and they do make interesting reading.
It would seem that once a week the takings were taken from the machine... each time the tech went to a machine he wrote it down in the log book ( never the $$ amount though..LOL) at the same time, any minor faults were rectified.. bulbs, rubbers and at the end of a log it nearly always says...  gave the PF a clean with XXXX.
Locked on coils etc were phoned through by the establishment where the game was housed and tech was on his way... fault fixed, game a wipe over and off he goes. But this is the EM period... once we go into SS and beyond, its mainly a board swap and fix back at base. Problem with modern day pinball is that I don't think anyone carries spare boards and it would appear that most if not all faults are not board related, mainly mechanical and component degradation.

In all honesty, I don't think Techs today are what we would consider a tech should be. We live in a world where people make sandwiches and are labelled " sandwich artists".
I recently had to replace a transformer to some neon in an arcade that's situated inside a shopping centre here in Brisbane. Im up a step ladder with my head inside the roof cavity talking to the "Tech" whos on the floor... he says hell go and get some tools in case I need them as he has nearly every tool you can imagine. What he came back with was an Ozito cordless drill and a mish mash of screw drivers from the $1 shop.
I thanked him and continued to use my own tools

Offline Homepin

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In all honesty, I don't think Techs today are what we would consider a tech should be. We live in a world where people make sandwiches and are labelled " sandwich artists".


.....and they can't even get that right - - - they are making ROLLS not sandwiches!!!

For my entire working life I have been annoyed by every man and his dog calling themselves a "technician".

Now we have "Nail technician, Tyre fitting technician" etc WTF!!!

I was very often called an "electrician" (apologies to the electricians out there) and I would get quite cross and correct the speaker by saying "electricians twist wires together and technicians diagnose and repair electronics".

This was back in the day when you were actually trained how to design and diagnose circuits down to component level. That just doesn't happen any more.

Anyway, back to techs repairing pinball machines.

I was apprentice trained as a Technician and worked in electronics (NOT electrics) and when the first Bally SS machine arrived in Brisbane (Playboy) at Musictime the "techs", who were mostly ex PMG "wire jerkers", were scratching their heads and had NO IDEA what they were looking at when they opened the backbox. One of these techs knew of me (his daughter was going out with my brother) and he asked if I would like to look at this new machine over a Friday "after work beer."

Free beer AND pinball - what's NOT to like, hahaha (actually I knew very little about pinball at that time).

I started work there the following Monday.... %.%

Baisically my job ended up being to repair the boards as they were exchanged and brought back to the workshop. Well, what a mess that was, the techs had no idea what to do as far as repairing these new monsters went.

Forget about any maintenance such as lamps, rubbers - they couldn't keep the machines running!!!

In the end I had to lay down the law as my repaired boards were coming back - blown up again - at a furious rate and, naturally, it was all my fault because I "hadn't repaired the board properly".

I held a few "repair workshops" over the next couple of months and basically taught the techs NOT to just plug in the repaired board and expect all would be good. Etc Etc

After a while the dust settled and I had them organised a lot better. We were then able to attend to more mundane repairs but usually these were very much "if it ain't broke - don't fix it".

If a flipper stopped working then that required immediate attention - when the tech called he repaired the flipper with whatever parts were in his toolbox or with parts robbed from other assemblies in the machine. A quick wipe over the PF and replace any OBVIOUS dodgy rubbers and maybe a few lamps if things looked a bit dark but that was it - nothing else.

To their credit, at Musictime we rarely moved pinballs from one location directly to another - they usually came back to the workshop first and we had two techs dedicated to shopping them out before they were then re-sited. As far as field repairs go though, they were patch it up ONLY.

I did my fair share of field service work as well including on many EMs in mostly remote pub locations as we were always short on techs and especially short on ones who actually knew what they were doing. (please don't think I am being big headed here - it is a simple fact that there were practically no formally trained "techs" repairing pinballs back in the day).

Gavin is right with his observation, anyone can call themselves a technician these days and many seem to think they are because they saw a multimeter once and they know how to plug in a replacement board.....

As it happens I am writing a book but that will be a way off......here is a mockup of the cover (and yes, I am well aware that RCT is 2002 - this is a MOCKUP cover).



 




« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 12:21:15 PM by Homepin »
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Offline GORGAR 1

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Thanks Gav & Mike what a great insight into the amusement industry from many years ago oh Gav your a year older than me so your old lol. So not alot has changed we still don't have many "real techs" who know what there doing but in those days pinball was actually making money and alot of money apposed to today where $50 a week is good lol. So Really why would a TZ spend man hours on a machine that barly pays for itself? Pinball in the wild is dead we all know that so me I'm not surprised that the game comes in makes a few thousand then it's moved on for the next new title.

Peter.

Offline Retropin

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Thanks Gav & Mike what a great insight into the amusement industry from many years ago oh Gav your a year older than me so your old lol. So not alot has changed we still don't have many "real techs" who know what there doing but in those days pinball was actually making money and alot of money apposed to today where $50 a week is good lol. So Really why would a TZ spend man hours on a machine that barly pays for itself? Pinball in the wild is dead we all know that so me I'm not surprised that the game comes in makes a few thousand then it's moved on for the next new title.

Peter.

Agreed and this is where I think JJP has taken a good approach with Pinredemption. Pinball really does need to keep up with the times and kids want tickets - so give them tickets!!!.
 In all honesty, it doesn't take much to clean a PF or do some basic maintenance but we live in a world where everyone has to have a cotton wool bubble surrounding them. Chances are that any spotty urch on the arcade floor isn't ALLOWED to even open a machine due to some OH&S bullsh*t or red tape compliance rubbish that was implemented as " job creation".
A simple onsite repair these days could well involve a licence requirement, $20 million Public liability, SWMS presented beforehand, barricades, High vis long sleeved shirt ( electrical requirement) etc.
I have to admit... I couldn't be arsed either!

But... we digress, relatively new Sterns are playing like crap onsite, now the OP opened up a debate on whether its due to poor maintenance or due to the way these machines are made. Anything I might have to say on this will be taken the wrong way and im glad I didn't make the OP...LOL!!!

Offline GORGAR 1

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Fair enough about what's made tough and what's not :) but I love hearing the story's from the guys with first hand experience :) so cheers for sharing

Offline Caveoftreasures

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I called it sloppy sloppy seconds cause playing a game on a machine that has weak everything is just a waste of time.
I am thinking that perhaps the designs these days of the flipper mechanisms and the pop bumper mechs are on the weaker side of things.
What I would love to know is if the manufacturers have made things less commercial and more home like and weaker thinking the machines will sit at home and get little use.
I am a huge Stern fan but something ain't right if a machine is only three months old and plays so sloppy that it's not worth playing.
I would like to compare the JJP mechanicals of the flippers and the pop bumpers and see if they are identical to Stern or much much more commercial designed to cop a real flogging.

Here's a question, can u use a JJP flipper kit in a Stern or vica versa.
Things just seem to go far too sloppy far to quick for my liking.

What worries me is that a person comes up to play a brand new Mustang or Star Trek or Walking Dead and salivating at the fun ahead, only to say that played like crap.
Something ain't right design wise ?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 02:33:29 PM by Caveoftreasures »
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Offline Caveoftreasures

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Nino can u have a close look at the LE Walking Dead machine u have at your workshop and compare to any other type of flipper mechs or pop bumper mechs and give an opinion if they are the standard accross the industry etc.
That way, it will tell me if the TimeZone machines are sloppy from massive massive usage or if the flipper and pop bumper mechs are just lighter in design than what they used to be ? Or if the design is fine etc.
Your quick study may give some insight to the issue ?
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Offline pinball god

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Hey Brett, don't you have bally/williams and new sterns in your collection that you could compare or are you saying the most recent sterns have issues?

I'm a little lost in your thread now.
Still loving my Metallica Premium

Offline Caveoftreasures

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I have brand new Sterns in my current townhouse but 50 plus others of every manufacturer are in storage sitting on their ends and no playfields are accessible at all so I will need someone else to have a look at a new Stern and compare it to the 90,s DMDs etc or even to Sterns from 3 or 4 years ago. Nino would have seen a lot of pop bumper and flipper mechs in his time so I thought he might be a good choice to have a look, or anyone else who can do same.
All my stuff is stored til my divorce and the ugly family law court case is over so I can't look at any of my stuff at the minute.
Behind every garage door could be a pinball collectors
"Cave of Treasures" 55 in my collection

Into  Stern -JJP - Cars , Road Bikes- Jet Skis - Star Trek n Sci-Fi & Electronics    
Beware of Stalkers & Walkers when playing The Walking Dead

My 7yr old son Hunter is my best mate in the world !

Offline Homepin

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JJP use WMS mechanisms as far as I am aware so they are very different to late model Stern.

I think your entire point is down to lack of maintenance nothing more.

Apart from the single coil flippers on Sterns (which it seems even Stern now admits by going back to twin flipper windings on the flipper coils) I think they are every bit as robust as WMS mechs.
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Offline pinball god

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I have brand new Sterns in my current townhouse but 50 plus others of every manufacturer are in storage sitting on their ends and no playfields are accessible at all so I will need someone else to have a look at a new Stern and compare it to the 90,s DMDs etc or even to Sterns from 3 or 4 years ago. Nino would have seen a lot of pop bumper and flipper mechs in his time so I thought he might be a good choice to have a look, or anyone else who can do same.
All my stuff is stored til my divorce and the ugly family law court case is over so I can't look at any of my stuff at the minute.
fair enough
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Offline Retropin

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There have been several discussions on Pinside about Stern games going weak.
Consensus is that heat plays a part... the coils seem to get hot apparently and then degrade. The issue may well lie with the quality of the coils.

Offline Homepin

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There have been several discussions on Pinside about Stern games going weak.
Consensus is that heat plays a part... the coils seem to get hot apparently and then degrade. The issue may well lie with the quality of the coils.

More likely the way in which they are used with the single winding flipper coils - crap idea right from the start.
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