Is the age of the pre-order over?

[Homepin]

We had a swag of coil parts and sleeves delivered today - just as all places are closing for Chinese New Year.
Three types of coil sleeves



















Oh....I think the pre-order model is all but dead, JJP killed that off with all of his stories and stalling and broken promises and the Bumper fiasco sealed its fate!

[ddstoys]

Bumper ruin everything :(

[Pop Bumper Pete]

Nino, I drank the koolaide when JJP was serving
I look forward to Thunderbirds are go, but I am going to reserve judgment until I see the game

[Crashramp]

I'm a maybe on this one. I've never pre ordered before but I'd consider it if it was a theme I really really liked and the company making it had a long history of delivering as promised. I think it's great that there are all these new start up company's but to be honest until they're built I don't have that much interest. I will say though that I love the art on the Jpop games and hope they all come to fruition. Hopefully they play as good as they look.

[Pop Bumper Pete]

I notice that jpop/zidware is going down

Jpop has realized he has no money to build games, so he has sold the assets to another person

They will build the games in two years if the original depositors pony up more dollars, and new people decide to get on board , to the tune of $16,000 US

[Brunswick Brawler]

Some thoughts:

1. I thought his last game was being sold for $US15k.  Is that correct?

If so I presume the $US16k, is saying that the new investor wants an additional $US1k.  If there is any saving grace for those with a deposit, its that an extra & 7% is not much to pay.  If its is a reputable manufacture, I'd throw in the extra 7%.


2. ...so the big question is now, who will be taking over production.  Given they are all LE games (100 or so of each of the three games?), I can't see a big company getting involved.  The relatively small run could suit Spooky Pinball.


3. The lesson of pre-order is being learnt again.  I'm beginning to think that JJP may not survive.  Though JJP may have a loyal customer base, it is now limited to just that.  If JJP was now to announce pre-order of their third unthemed title that Pat Lawler is working on, I can't see many people paying a deposit until they know the machine is in production, or even more so, is in the distributors showroom.  JJP's business model is based on pre-order for now.  JJP has to start producing more titles per year, or their revenue stream is going to be Zero for the next year or two.


4.  So is J Pop going to end up working for one of the new start up companies?  He is a great designer, so I hope that happens, but I fear his name is tainted.

[Strangeways]

Honestly, I feel very sorry for anyone placing money on a pre order to the boutique manufacturers. Nearly all of the boutiques run out of basements with no manufacturing building and no staff. Just a couple of people with a dream. I don't understand how anyone can pay an unestablished dreamer huge sums of money and wait years to see nothing except a random notice through the internet that the dream is over and so is your wallet.

Homepin and Heighway at least turned the dream into a practical solution. Start at the right end of the chain - you need the facilities and you need the staff. You already share the dream, but turning into a relaity is not a matter of spending time in a basement or talking constantly to podcasts. Now Circus Maximus is on the block, and they took Python's dream and ran with it. But again, what did they do FIRST - They bought a manufacturing plant.

Having said that, manufacturers do make mistakes in picking distributors. So there is still scope for a pre order buyer to lose their money. Protecting the "brand" is just as important as producing a good game.

[Pop Bumper Pete]

Some thoughts:

1. I thought his last game was being sold for $US15k.  Is that correct?

If so I presume the $US16k, is saying that the new investor wants an additional $US1k.  If there is any saving grace for those with a deposit, its that an extra & 7% is not much to pay.  If its is a reputable manufacture, I'd throw in the extra 7%.


2. ...so the big question is now, who will be taking over production.  Given they are all LE games (100 or so of each of the three games?), I can't see a big company getting involved.  The relatively small run could suit Spooky Pinball.


3. The lesson of pre-order is being learnt again.  I'm beginning to think that JJP may not survive.  Though JJP may have a loyal customer base, it is now limited to just that.  If JJP was now to announce pre-order of their third unthemed title that Pat Lawler is working on, I can't see many people paying a deposit until they know the machine is in production, or even more so, is in the distributors showroom.  JJP's business model is based on pre-order for now.  JJP has to start producing more titles per year, or their revenue stream is going to be Zero for the next year or two.


4.  So is J Pop going to end up working for one of the new start up companies?  He is a great designer, so I hope that happens, but I fear his name is tainted.

There is a rumor that JJP is bailing them out

[Brunswick Brawler]

Some thoughts:

1. I thought his last game was being sold for $US15k.  Is that correct?

If so I presume the $US16k, is saying that the new investor wants an additional $US1k.  If there is any saving grace for those with a deposit, its that an extra & 7% is not much to pay.  If its is a reputable manufacture, I'd throw in the extra 7%.


2. ...so the big question is now, who will be taking over production.  Given they are all LE games (100 or so of each of the three games?), I can't see a big company getting involved.  The relatively small run could suit Spooky Pinball.


3. The lesson of pre-order is being learnt again.  I'm beginning to think that JJP may not survive.  Though JJP may have a loyal customer base, it is now limited to just that.  If JJP was now to announce pre-order of their third unthemed title that Pat Lawler is working on, I can't see many people paying a deposit until they know the machine is in production, or even more so, is in the distributors showroom.  JJP's business model is based on pre-order for now.  JJP has to start producing more titles per year, or their revenue stream is going to be Zero for the next year or two.


4.  So is J Pop going to end up working for one of the new start up companies?  He is a great designer, so I hope that happens, but I fear his name is tainted.

There is a rumor that JJP is bailing them out

...A JJP bailout would make sense for JJP.  They have a small (slow) production line, which is fine for three short runs like this.  It will also give JJP a quick cash injection.  At $16k per machine that already have a final design concepts, JJP can't make a loss on this.  (They will likely still need to do likely detailed design.)

Pop's games are narrow bodies.  So to is Pat Lawlers game.  Having done a few some narrow bodies I hope JJP become convinced to do to narrow bodies.  People have different views on this, but I prefer a narrow body game.  Wide bodies are sluggish.


Ops, this is starting to derail the thread!  Sorry, I just wanted to sneak this in.

[Caveoftreasures]

I read the announcement today on Facebook from Zidware that the company has taken in over a million dollars of deposits, cannot and will not refund one cent of any persons deposits and to be honest, after reading the entire notice from Zidware, I was absolutely disgusted.

This company is a lesson in trading insolvent 101.
In Australia, you now get jailed for doing that. What the USA laws are, I don't know.
But every word of that announcement stank of receivership and the number crunchers are asking people to wait another 2 to 5 years only if they get a signed agreement from the large majority of people who have payed $$.
If you don't agree to their terms, and under duress I feel, then the "entity" stepping in wont be going ahead.
How the bloke who ran Zidware will ever show his face again at a pinball show/event, will be beyond me.

The question is, "where has the million dollars gone" ?
If he has been living off the deposits, and was not in a position to manufacture (which has proven to be correct) then that is fraud in my mind and trading insolvent. The moment you spend one cent of investors money, knowing their is a reasonable chance that you cannot deliver, it's trading insolvent, highly immoral and probably illegal.

The people who have paid deposits, are now creditors.
When all creditors are being asked by a third party to sign an agreement before anything else can happen, with the clear statement that you will not be getting your money back, it looks and sounds exactly what bankruptcy lawyers and governing bodies do right before winding the company up. Just bad bad news, bad bad management and negligence on behalf of Zidware.

The guy from the Predator debacle at least said he was and has been refunding all deposits and he took in far less than Zidware did. But Zidware says NO deposits will be refunded.
So where has all the million dollars gone ?

JJP would be mad to go anywhere near this catastrophe.

Also, who would pay $17,000 USA for a unproven, unseen pinball machine. ?

It's another massive black eye for the pinball industry worldwide.
I sincerely hope no Aussies lost a cent.

I hope all the current pinball companies survive, but the pre-order days have been murdered by people who should have known better.

Will Zidware open the books to show people where the $ has gone.
Asking people to wait another 2 to 5 years is insulting and I reckon just another stalling tactic. Sad day for pinball.

[Pop Bumper Pete]

now they are saying JJP is not involved in the rescue
but no word on who is taking over production

I doubt that production will go on from here, you would have to be nuts to pay up , with this companies history, and still not expect to get your machine for 2 - 5 years
they might get a handful of people with too much money, but not in the numbers they would need

[Brunswick Brawler]

If the company taking over proved to be trustworthy, I'd pay the extra cash.  Take the perspective of those who paid a deposit.  They may see this as good news.  They have probably realised that they had lost their money a year ago.  Someone picking this up may not be to bad for them.

But yes, appalling that an option was not provided by Jpop for refunds!

[Brunswick Brawler]

Have a listen to Coast 2 Coast podcast Episode 167 discusses the Zidware (Jpop) insolvency.  'Nate' goes through the email that was sent to those who have a deposit.

...They have been given an option where they are screwed out of 50% of their deposits.  JPop has clearly spent the depositors money.  The person taking over doesn't sound like its a proper manufacture - he is referred to as a 'designer/restructure/businessman/professionals'.  Bazaar!  After hearing this podcast, I'd be asking for my money back, even if its only 50%.

http://www.coast2coastpinball.com  Episode 167.

[andypinboy]

Surely this HAS to be the end of the pre-order from any company without a strong track record?? Personally I'm tentative about JJP. Another insane day in the world of buying new pinball :)

[Freiherr]

Surely this HAS to be the end of the pre-order from any company without a strong track record?? Personally I'm tentative about JJP. Another insane day in the world of buying new pinball :)

Almost 2 years ago I posted on a JJP thread and my last sentence stated that I had a bad gut feel about paying up front. This news seals that feeling for good.
http://aussiepinball.com/index.php?topic=5892.msg143496#msg143496