Author Topic: New Bally/Williams glass, anyone with an art package?  (Read 685 times)

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Offline greatwichjohn

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New Bally/Williams glass, anyone with an art package?
« on: September 26, 2009, 02:56:41 PM »
I am seriously looking at producing a glass with silk screens. That is if someone with the talent can supply the art. There are different companies here in Nova Scotia that can do the work. I have been talking with Gene & Kim at Illinois Pin Ball, the last year. Seems like traditional methods are still prefered with Williams licensing.

Please email me if you can help out. I will be on vacation until October 5. Also if someone has non Bally/Williams backglass art, let me know & I will run a test with films. http://greatpinball.com/
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Offline illawarra_steelers

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Re: New Bally/Williams glass, anyone with an art package?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2009, 03:25:59 PM »
John,

I'm in the process of touching up a really bad Williams Domino backglass from 1952 - are you interested in somthing like this?

Offline greatwichjohn

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Re: New Bally/Williams glass, anyone with an art package?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2009, 12:58:58 AM »
I am interested in art for any type of glass. It would be done using films for very low demand glass. I should have more results of this method in October. It can be done here or anywhere. Seems like most people would rather have someone else do the installs. But I will do a step by step instruction this fall. So people can order blank glass & go to their local printer/sign shop for films. There should be no reason to live with a missing or trash glass if the art file is available.
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Offline Retropin

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Re: New Bally/Williams glass, anyone with an art package?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2009, 09:08:18 AM »
John,

 I already do a similar thing here - backglass is scanned, knitted together and file repaired. This is then double printed in reverse onto clear and applied to glass. White diffuser applied over the top of this. Then backing stencil is applied and block out sprayed on. Then a protective coating of clear applied and score windows cut out by hand.
Results are very very good - but its a huge amount of work to make just one BG... if i include the time to prepare the files then the amount of work is massive.

To have files prepared for screening glass which im doing also in the hope that Australia will get SOME licencing to reproduce, then each component colour is vectorised by hand and files overlayed to ensure registratiopn is 100% - some of the glasses i am doing have 8 colours NOT including  black... it takes hours and hours of tedious work to achieve this... its a HUGE undertaking with absolutely NO guarantee of being able to use them legally at the end. Were i to pay someone to do this work to the level required, then only titles like FLASH etc would get done as they guarantee good sales.... in other words.. this work aint cheap
 Am i prepared to hand these files over?? Sorry - no.
 And im NOT being rude here.. my main reason is that there would not be much benefit to Australian restorers/ owners... the reason im doing this and pushing hard for some licencing is because after initial purchase of backglass and then cost of shipping... backglasses are VERY expensive to buy with no guarantee of their safe arrival here.
 In Australia we NEED an outlet for glasses manufactured here - my hope is to supply SCREENED glasses to Australian pinball owners for around $350 inc shipping, these are all handled by hand from door to door... at the moment we can pay up to AUS$800 inc shipping and take a huge risk on its safe arrival.

IF persons come to the table and allow licencing of sorts in Australia, then id be prepared to share certain files with you... but at the moment my focus is solely on providing for  the Australian market which so often gets overlooked... i do however wish you all the luck in the world.. the end result is that it all benefits pinballers to some degree.. and if people like myself and certain others who also frequent this site dont sit down in front of computers night after night vectorising files, then we are going to lose some pinball artwork eventually.
One day we will turn around and realise that there are no more good examples of certain titles and no one ever bothered to make files of the artwork because we were all scared that certain persons were going to sue us. Well, i can legally recreate, but i cannot supply.... the obstacles will come down one day and the work of many of us will be there for all to benefit from.

Best of luck mate...
Retropin

Offline mildflame

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Re: New Bally/Williams glass, anyone with an art package?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2009, 10:37:11 AM »
What is the best way to restore a backglass PS. can you make silver (metalic)
Check out my website: http://mildflame.blogspot.com.au
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Offline greatwichjohn

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I just got back from a weeks vacation. My printer had 12 Seawitch, 3 Miss World, 3 CUE -T & a new Twilight Zone test (not for sale!). TZ video here & it looks awesome behind a glass (close up you see lines, but at players distance, mint!).
http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e28/greatwichjohn/?action=view&current=029.flv
Other pictures here: http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e28/greatwichjohn/

I have been doing Seawitch using tempered glass with films, reverse print color film on clear, translucent white, & blocking film (brilliant chrome) that is plotted & cut. The displays are hand cut using stainless steel blade & any pieces missing on blocking film are replaced. Yes it is a huge labour investment & nothing is really made at $150 US. I would hope that the guys in Australia see the possibilities of doing it using films. Since it might be impossible to get licensing for Williams/Bally.

On the traditional screen printing, I am still seriously looking for art for a small run test. It should be either early Stern or my preference Williams/Bally, since I am still working on license approval from Williams through Illinois Pin Ball.

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Offline greatwichjohn

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Looks like a dead end for me towards licensing from Williams. More info posted here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/3888b1bd9ba02247?hl=en#
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Offline Creech

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Damn shame! It's a pity that people who actually want to produce something for the hobby are always held back for *WHATEVER* BS reason. Are you really surprised that you've hit this brick wall?

Offline Strangeways

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John - Best to go straight to WMS - speak to a WMS employee - not a referral to either of the WMS/Bally license holders as there is too much of a "gray area" of "who owns what". Gene would simply be tied up in producing parts etc..
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Offline greatwichjohn

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It is extremely hard getting through the barriers to Williams licensing. Just like Stern, Marvel Comics, & CBS Products for CSI. Gottlieb LLC seems very easy with Robert Fesjian & Steve Young. Someone in the know guided me through the hurtles with direct ink restorations for Williams being ok. Not a new product, thats the big hassle with new backglass which needs a license.

So unless someone can guide me or others through the barriers at Williams. Seems like nothing will happen, unless you deal with Wayne or Gene, to go through Williams.

I still don't know whether to believe that someone at Williams actually authorises parts or products. Maybe just smoke & mirrors to keep others from producing stuff.
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Offline daics3522

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I do not understand the big "ISSUE" that Williams would have with these reproductions. As long as you are going thought he right channels in terms of licensing and the associated Williams License Fees then what could be their problem.

I remember when I worked for the AFL that licensing was quite expensive but once you have one you are still required to pay annual royalties from all sales..

Money for Jam really for Williams....

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Offline Strangeways

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I do not understand the big "ISSUE" that Williams would have with these reproductions. As long as you are going thought he right channels in terms of licensing and the associated Williams License Fees then what could be their problem.

I remember when I worked for the AFL that licensing was quite expensive but once you have one you are still required to pay annual royalties from all sales..

Money for Jam really for Williams....



Absolutely. Here's my understanding (which could be totally inaccurate) - The problem is that Williams have to check each part or art, so ensure the quality is up to standards. Now their Pinball division closed years ago - and they sold it off to two separate entities. Both entities believe they can "approve" and "enforce" any object that is Williams or Bally. One company was even approving their own work ! So Williams themselves don't necessarily want to check each part - but the two entities didn't "get along" and believe they have the rights to certain parts. So you take your repro part to both entities - but - it is my understanding that BOTH entities must forward the request - with sample - to Williams. Williams make that decision.

Williams are simply not going to approve any part or art on any machine prior to 1989 regardless of which entity you forward your submission to.

This is just my understanding - so if I'm totally wrong - my apologies. It would be great if someone who knows the facts would be able to clarify.



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Offline greatwichjohn

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I got a reply not to use the person name in Australia that runs TPF. He has rights & I won't do anything with him license wise. That was his choice awhile ago since he has a supplier here for many products.

The local guys have told me that someone has to approve the art & product quality (how its made) at Williams. So my only way forward is through Illinois Pin Ball. But there appears to be reluctance at Williams using films even for old pinballs?
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Offline Creech

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Don't use a persons name but it's OK to use their company name??? Now that's funny!

Offline Retropin

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John,
I dont know that any of the manufacturers will grant licence for BG production using anything other than silk screens. To my knowledge there isnt one reproduction factory that uses this method. Yes it allows us to make small run glasses, but i doubt Williams or Gottlieb will ever put the tick of quality approval on them and allow licence. The depth of colour is not quite as deep and i think they are concerned with films coming away over time ( like this never happens with Silk Screen!!).

Williams licence holders are licenced to produce specific parts... there is no licence to just produce coils for instance - a 24/1200 coil will have specific licence.. they cant just go making 24/1300 for instance unless permission is granted to do so.
Dependant on the titles you have chosen to produce - neither of the licence holders may have permission. Neither of them will have permission for layers of film and therefore they cannot grant it.

You need to make your product and then submit to Williams.. they then may or may not grant permission... best of luck to you