Copyright Queries

[Strangeways]

Yeah it does make for some interesting chat but unfortunately only raised more questions so far

So you can only apply to reproduce plastics or playfields or whatever if you have the rights to do so or permission from the rights holder?

But if we don't know who has the rights to what, then who do we ask?
Gene, Wayne, or Williams?

Hence the big gray area..

If you have a product that neither License holder is currently producing, you can submit that product to BOTH license holders. If one agrees, then that license holder has to go to WMS Industries for approval - especially if a third party license is involved - example Paramount pictures, or Cassandra Peterson for Elvira etc.. WMS may ask for samples, as it is still a Williams product, made under license.

Good luck with pre 1989 Games as WMS won't allow either license holder to approve any NEW products that they have not been licensed to product already.

[Retropin]

now thats interesting.
if i understand correctly, you can only sue for breach of copyright if there is a loss of income.
so if joe blow made a stencil set for a pin that nobody makes then joe blow can't be sued because the persons with the legal right to make the stencils is not losing any income and is not making them?

The problem here is that Joe Blow will quickly burn the cash in legal fees arguing the point.As i have been told and still retain the email for reference..

"I dont need to be in the right to sue you... i will burn you in legal fees ... i have money to burn unlike you are your f*##ing stupid mates"

Now... does a man who burns his money feel warm??   

[Creech]

So who are your stupid mates Gavin? 

[Caveoftreasures]

Do u guys know how to play poker ? If u do, read on.
You are wondering what certains peoples cards are or arent.There is only one way to find out.

If i produce something, and a certain party (or parties) dont want me to produce it, they will do one or two things.
Firstly, they will write to me and tell me to stop.The second thing is that they will make a claim that I am not entitled to produce the said item, and then they will claim that they are entitled to.etc.

Then I will ask them to prove to me (my legal people) that they have a lawful claim , In Australia, that I cannot produce the item, and i will ask them to prove that they can (or cannot).Legally.
You see, u can claim anything u want, but you have to prove to a magistrate that I have infringed somewhere/someway.
You also have to prove that you, the complainant, have your own legal rights to do it as well, or even to make a claim against me.

If i do a contract and say sell you, for a hundred grand,the legal rights to say market Motor Vehicle products, for say, one of the big 3 manufacturers, it doesnt mean it is legal or binding. I have to first prove to you, that i had the legal right to offer you a dealership for Ford to start off with, for example.

If u want to see what a certain unliked melbourne seller reckons he owns, start selling his products, then get your solicitor to make him prove legally that he can stop you.Your own solicitor will tell u real quick, if u can legally or not legally produce something at this point. In order for them to stop you playing your cards, they will have to show you theirs.

And thats where, it dies or doesnt. If u want to abide by the law, simply go that way.
The ARABS have a saying, "If u want to make me do something, make me".

If you want to stop me producing something, make me stop. Sometimes alot harder said, then done.
P.S- it wont cost me a cent for u to stop me, there are no damages unless i make something and then make a dollar off it, or stop u from making a dollar from it.You might get the cost for one items profit,if i sell it, and u might get a small amount for one solicitors letter.That is the legal advice I will go with, for now. Until then, its just all guessing and bluff.

[beaky]

so is it a breach of copyright to make a part with art work on it that you can not buy, to repair your own pin?
if not then a way around the copyright may be this.

I (party 1) have a pin that needs a said part with art work that i can not buy. So i sell the whole pin to another person (party 2). Now party 2 reproduces the said part with the art work on it to repair the pin he  now owns. After the part with the art work has been made and fitted to the pin that party 2 ownes party 1 decides to buy the pin back off party 2.

would this work? As party one sold a pin to party 2, party 2 repaired his own pin then sold it back to party 1.

[JD]

Despite the legal minefield, I think most people are prepared to pay a reasonable price to legally purchase the items that are subject to copyright. I know I would prefer the genuine article if it is available.

Economies of scale suggest that even those who hold the rights would not be able to afford to commence action unless there was significant loss of income.

However, often there is no source for certain items.

It appears to me that what really gets people frustrated and determined to find ways to get the items illegally or otherwise is when they are told NO and are not offered any other alternatives / options.

I know in my case, I will move heaven and earth to make something happen when someone says no and offers me no other alternatives.

This is what I believe is at the heart of the agro and distaste here..

J.D.

[Extra Ball]

would this work? As party one sold a pin to party 2, party 2 repaired his own pin then sold it back to party 1.

lol lotsa new threads today

[beaky]

i agree
there is nothing more annoying than trying to buy a part, find out no one makes it and has no intention of making it and then says you cant make it. What about my loss i bought something that has been broken or is damaged beyond repair, i cant buy the part, and i cant pay some one to make it so the money i spent buying the item that i cannot have repaired is wasted.

[Retropin]

There is also the "after market" clause.
This states that if a product is past its production run and is no longer produced you have every right to produce it.
This is how classic cars are restored - funnily enough there are not lots of parts sitting in warehouses so people can fix their cars 40 years after they were produced.
Now if you were to sell this item then your wording on its sale has to be very precise and would be for personal restoration only.
This clause also ties in with the proving a loss of income by someone else selling a part.
So... in theory cos it HAS NEVER BEEN TESTED... i can LEGALLY make a backglass for DOODLE BUG as it is no longer produced by the original party and is pre 1985 when automatic copyright came into play.
The ORIGINAL artist may want  some kickback if they found out, but they may have signed all rights away...and if rights owners no longer produce then.....

It is a HUGE grey area as no one has ever gone the distance to legally play it out... there have been many C&D's sent out, very little action, and i see artwork produced by MANY people that they could never have been given permission for...

[Caveoftreasures]

I like going all the way.If it aint currently available, i will reserve my right to make it available. thats my last comment on the issue.
I am going to play some pinball,thats more fun. 

[pinnies4me]

Isn't Nick (pinnies4me) a Lawyer? 

Yes mate, and maybe I should specialise in copyright law - looks like I'd have a whole bunch of clients ready to go! 

[Marty Machine]

In order to successfully sue anyone for a breach of copyright, then you have to also prove loss of earnings... if you dont produce it - how can you prove loss of earnings??

A loss of earning would be proven as soon as you or i started selling parts & decals.
Anything *we* sell, means WMS 'lost' a potential sale. 

Food for thought...

[pinnies4me]

What concerns me is the fact that people tend to forget that infringing someone's copyright in a commercial manner (ie selling, distributing - even if no profit is made) can be a criminal offense - including fines and even imprisonment. It's all well and good to brag about being able to afford to fight a case, but I'm sure that would be cold comfort as that person waives good bye to the wife and kids taking nothing but a toothbrush and five years supply of lubricant.. ..

[shansta]

LOL Nick.

The prison officers might be pissed when you roll up in a B-Double tanker full of happy fat....

[Caveoftreasures]

In order to successfully sue anyone for a breach of copyright, then you have to also prove loss of earnings... if you dont produce it - how can you prove loss of earnings??

my post deleted.serves no purpose us arguing.
bret