What is an "A" List title ?

[Strangeways]

Seems to be the topic of the month, so it deserves its own thread. It should be interesting to hear other pinhead's views on this topic. I'd like to set one small "ground rule" - No bagging of any Pinball - No Pinball gets "hurt" 

I always thought "A" list, "B" list etc was reserved for DMDs. But I think there should be "A" list (etc) pins for all eras.

What I would like to know ;

1) What are the "A", "B" and "C" list pinballs for the different eras - Woodrails / EMs / SS / DMD

2) WHO decides that "A" list machines are the BEST machines - are they in fact "the best machines" of the era ?


Not sure how to structure the topic, but lets see how it runs..

 

[Homepin]

Practically nothing Gottleib IMO (ducking for cover)....

[ajlaird]

A list titles: an A list title is one that is widely recognised as among the best for gameplay, artwork and sound (top 10, top 20?). There would need to be agreement so let's say there is at least 75% consensus that it is an A list title. There is no harm in having A list titles from each era; in fact it would be a good idea for us younger ones to have some idea of what titles to look for when we go to buy an EM or SS.

B list: doesn't quite make it to A list because it is lacking in one of the departments above.

C list: is lacking in two of the departments above.

D list: is lacking in three of the departments above.

Or something like that!

I think some people interpret A list as being top dollar machines, but I think for our purposes we would be better sticking with the definition above.

Who decides? We do! We can have an AP determined A list for each era. Here's how it might work: everyone submits their top 5 pins from each era (if you don't know pins from an era you can pass). This is collated and a top 20 or 30 list is drawn up from those submissions. We then vote on whether we do consider these as worthy of A list status, and every machine that gets 75% of the vote or more stays on the list, any others don't.

[Retropin]

A list woodrail??

How do you answer this??

For collectibility, it has to be #1 MERMAID where the fisherman would pull in a fish at each miliion scored.... #2 is KNOCKOUT or possibly MINSTREL MAN.

KNOCKOUT has 2 manikins in a ring that fight each other throwing punches, one gets knocked down and the refs arm moves up and down 10 X and fighter gets up again - game also has ball save feature of a V that comes up between flippers, this fighting feature is the main attraction of the game... MINSTREL MAN i would argue has a better game play, again has the V to save a ball, but you have to complete a more complicated sequence and so game play is deeper than either of the previous 2.
These 3 machines are by far THE most collectible of the 50's era.

 yes these are A list woodrails and the most collectible..


BUT....


Game play though.. its is argued that MYSTIC MARVEL from 1954 is possibly Wayne Neyens finest - a double award game which was often necessary as card suits need to be completed to award SPECIAL.
I also know collectors who will walk right past a 1950 KNOCKOUT to go and play a  DRAGONETTE from 1954 also..

I own a KNOCKOUT and MYSTIC MARVEL... but for me the A list woodrail HAS to be MINSTREL MAN.. artwork is outstanding and screams an era never to be repeated ( wouldnt be allowed), has a deep game play for a woodrail, is HIGHLY sought after and ive never played one.. so maybe for me A list is the unobtainable.

My #1 A list woodrail is right here..

http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?any=minstrel+man&searchtype=quick#1607

[Pop Bumper Pete]

I hate these lists

But I think you will find that;
DMD
LOTR, Spiderman, MB, CV, TAF, AFM, Scared Stiff, Safe Cracker (?), MM

Solid State
Black Knight, Fathom, Kiss, Playboy (?), Centaur, EBD, Paragon, Meteor, Rocky, Haunted House,

EM’s
Captain Fantastic, Fireball, Wizard

2) people with too much cash and do not play pinball think theses are the only games worth owning

[Extra Ball]

Classifiing pins into A or B listings just allows dealers to make more money, and allow some in the hobby to feel better about themselves (penis extension pins). Look at the turn-over of many of the so-called better titles, it really speaks volumes   We will probably never get past the mentality of "X" pin must be good because it cost much $$$. We have guys proclaiming "X" is a great player, and their favorite, simply because they bought into the BS surrounding pinball pricing. Its just human nature to want the best, but in that quest for best really important stuff like playability is less of a concern, or completley clouded in a fog of bog.  

Because we get sucked into high pricing for "A list pins" then it flows down to all other machines.
eg.
TZ will cost 4k to 7k? then that makes FT worth 2k to 3500.

The price of FT has been inflated, and this can be justified because "TZ is twice the game of FT"

But is TZ twice the game? No way! Why does it cost double? Collectability? There you go, start attributing collectability dollars to a pin, and kiss most of our chances goodbye to owning it.

Pinball pricing will need to halve for its longevity as a viable commercial concern. I reckon prices will tumble to levels of early last decade. Lotsa reasons for this, and I can wait  

[Pintoxicated]

What I consider to be A list titles are machines that have a highly regarded reputation, instantly recognisable and price tag to go with it - I must stress that this does not mean that they necessarily deserve being in that A list group of machines.  Just because someone paid $5k for a machine doesn't mean that it may be the best all round machine.  Whether it is the dealers or collectors that create the hype around a particular machine or whether it is genuinely a great machine is up for debate.  Things change, for example, if the new Judge Dredd movie is a success, I would expect the value of that machine to increase slightly purely due to the hype at the time.

This is just the way I look at it.  To group machines in order of game play, art work and the like is near impossible as everyone has different tastes.  There are however some all time classic machines, from all eras, that demand their place in the 'A' list.  Whether we all agree on that particular title or not will always remain an issue but for something like that, I would have to say majority rules. 

[Ric]

Unfortunately, many A list titles, particuarly the non-DMD titles have achieved their status from being licensed themese, EG Kiss and Captain Fantastic with other elements nothaving been taken into consideration.

the other issue is, what is the rating for? Is it for pricing/collectability purposees or gameplay?

Some people think KISS is a fairly boring game however we all know the market says it is worth heaps.

For me, an A list game is a keeper. One that you would happily buy to keep in your collection because of a comibnation of great art, design and playability.

A Gottlieb Volley or 2001 is considered a A list game by many becuase of these reasons however by pricing standards they will never fetch as much as a fireball or Captain Fantastic.

[silverball]

An A list title for me is a title that doesnt come up for sale too often due to its gameplay/collectability/artwork. It is out of reach for most of us due to its limited numbers/rareity and price tag. It is the "ferrari" of pinballs.
Apart from that, its the pins that you like the most. The titles that you would never sell. For me its Pinball Magic,GnR,Banzai Run,Funhouse. I can list the most popular and overated IMO, but we weill leave it for another thread.

[braddo]

An 'A' list pin is the best pin YOU have ever played. When YOU play a pin that is better, then the original 'A' list pin gets dropped to the 'B' list, and the new one takes it's place.

If some machines are on equal level, then you are lucky enough to have more than one 'A' game on your list.

[Caveoftreasures]

This is a real hard one to answer. I feel playability has nothing to do with it. It is pricing and pricing alone. Assuming machine has been shopped and is ready for plug and play.Otherwise there are too many variables.

My opinion is made on the basis that pinball machines are labelled A B or C because of the financial part only.

A List - relates to the top priced machines. The top $ bracket. example, Cactus, Monster Bash, Medieval Madness,Attack from Mars etc. These machines have shown on a regular basis that they attract and sell for very large amounts of money. $7,000 grand and above.

A minus list -machine that sell around the $5,000 to $7,000 mark - example Indianna Jones, Twilight Zone, Scared Stiff, Theatre Magic , Addams family etc.

B List - Machines that are very close to the $5000 mark - example, Star Trek next Generation, Junkyard, Guns n Roses, and so on.

C List -  Any machine worth $4 grand or less. too many too list.

I feel A B C listing really relates to money only, and has nothing to do if a machine is well liked by most or not.
Fishtales, Getaway and say Whitewater are all c list for pricing, but not many people would argue against them being A grade for playability.

You need to say "are we talking A list pricing , or are we talking A list playability", thats the way to get a  indication of the topic and keep it on track. Is it a price list or a playability list. there has to be two different lists to keep the topic in perspective.

I hope my version helped.  

[Extra Ball]

Cavey it seems fair enough to describe A list as the most expensive machines. But the title "A" would on face value mean more. I think we do ourselves no favor by continuing to classify pins in this manner.

[markc]

A list title ....


well to me its one that makes you happy

is Shrek   NO   but I think so as My little girls love it
IS rocky  NO  but makes me happy ...
is Judge Dredd  NO WAY  but its in my top 3 games

so really if your happy  then its a A list

but top tittles   then different story

some people love Congo and Addams   I dislike both ....


still  though  AA  is MM , AFM 

[Extra Ball]

AFM best pin ever made, MM is a close second.
Third is FT 

[Strangeways]

Seems that the phrase "X" List is associated with DMDs. The categories seem to have a "criteria" involved ;

1 - Price
2 - Availability
3 - Playability
4 - Visual presentation
5 - "Keep up with the Jones'" - ability

I think that this was all developed years ago by US collectors and Dealers. This has become some "pseudo standard" by which we rate DMDs. (Not all DMDs represented)

A List - MM, CC, AFM, MB
B List - TAF, TOTAN, ToM, CV, SS, GNR, Spiderman, IJ, ST TNG, CFTBL
C List - Dr Who, Shadow, Corvette, Roadshow, Junkyard, JP, Shrek
D List - Congo, Indy500

Of course there are many more titles. When you look at the categories, there seems to be a "leaning" towards Price.

Looking at that list from an "Availability" point of view, it might look like this ;

A List - MM, CC, AFM, MB, CV
B List - Congo, Indy500, Junkyard, TOTAN
C List - Shadow, Corvette, ToM, Roadshow, Dr Who
D List - TAF, IJ, Shrek, CFTBL

From a Playability point of View (again - my opinion)

A List - CV, SS, TAF
B List - MB, Junkyard, Shadow, ToM, CFTBL, AFM
C List - Corvette, Roadshow, Dr Who
D List - Congo, MM, CC, Indy500, ST TNG, IJ


I believe Price should be removed from the "X" List criteria. The main reason is because there is no "standard" for reconditioning or restoration - everyone has a different opinion on how it should be done.