My second pin has arrived - Pro football

[Ford Fairlane]

ebay it, damn thing is cursed, put the money to JP 

you know i thought about that but would hate to sell a machine thats so hard to get going... and the fact that it means it beat me ... not sure if i can live with that 

[ajlaird]

Keep plugging on - you will get there eventually!

[SPURR]

ebay it, damn thing is cursed, put the money to JP 

you know i thought about that but would hate to sell a machine thats so hard to get going... and the fact that it means it beat me ... not sure if i can live with that 

I think I agree with Extra Ball. I think I could live with that whilst playing my newly purchased pin.

[d3vlin]

u will be ok mate just keep fiddling with it u will get through it.

[Ford Fairlane]

ebay it, damn thing is cursed, put the money to JP 

you know i thought about that but would hate to sell a machine thats so hard to get going... and the fact that it means it beat me ... not sure if i can live with that 

I think I agree with Extra Ball. I think I could live with that whilst playing my newly purchased pin.

Yeah, i just dont want to sell someone else my problem.. it just doesnt seem ethical? But on the other hand if i get $500 i can put $2k that i have on top to get my JP... Opinions?

u will be ok mate just keep fiddling with it u will get through it.

Mate ive fiddled with this for over a year an and off... this one is beyond my nooby skills

[ddstoys]

Shame you wernt local id buy it for sure 

[ajlaird]

I'd be very very tempted as well!

But transport would be a deal killer.

[Ford Fairlane]

and now to keep this thread rolling along 

David (FirePower) came over tonight to see what we could come up with. A big thanks to him for taking quite a few hours of his time to this bastard of a pinball... 

OK to sum up the main issue is that when you start a new game on this machine, the ball count doesnt stop but continues to position 6 which is end of game. At no point does it allow you fire the ball shooter...

A number of weird things or questions have been posed.

1. At certain times (not consistent) when you start a game it steps up to position 6 but also scores 1000 points 
2. The bumpers have a switch closest to playfield that are always open and never get closed (does anyone know what the start up state is for this switch (N/O or N/C)
3. L relay (1000 point seems to stuck at times no matter what we do with the pop bumpers but again not consistent
4. When the game is finished (steps to position 6), you can sometimes score points by hitting them manually (not sure if this is normal or red herring
5. Sometimes when you hold in P relay, the ball shooter will activate.

My guess as a noob, is that P relay which i believe Daniel thought was a bit suss is an issue, and the fact there are so many questions around the 1000 point area lead me to look around there as well.

Thoughts and suggestions are as always welcome! David might be able to add anything i missed (thanks heaps again mate, i really appreciate your help!!!!)

Thanks for putting up with this thread guys 

[Retropin]

1000 point relay is sometimes getting stuck

also scores 1000 points sometimes..

You have a 1000 point scoring switch probably on the PF that is getting closed on occasion... when 1000 point relay is stuck it is closed ( should close and then open as intermediate switch).

make sure that the adjustment leaf is not touching or close to the other leaf switch - does this make sense?

If you look at your PF leaf switches, there are actually 3 brass leafs - one is shorter and sits in between the outer 2 - this is your adjustment leaf and adjusts the innner leaf. Sometimes the outer leaf gets bent with years of adjusting and often at the base it just touches the adjustment leaf simulating a switch closure. You can limit your search as its a 1000 point switch not a 10 point etc

Lift PF up and unscrew each one by one - straighten out all the leafs and ensure they are not touching - youll find it, it will be the last one you look at. When youve found it - place your rubbers inbetween the 2 leafs to ensure that you do not have any closures. When you get the game running, sit rubbers where they are meant to go ( outside leaf).. do this one by one.. if you get a score or locked on scoring coil, then that switch needs further adjusting

Going straight to position 6 is a logic fault and again is a misaligned switch, there is normally a relay that controls this and its a 2 way switch - has a leaf that contacts on left and then right.. this counts for you.. if one side is not aligned properly it will either give you nothing or go to end of play mode... because it hasnt cycled properly it may be possible to still sore points as Game Over relay has not been energised

Hope all this makes sense.. its kinda easier to actually show you rather than try to describe it

[FirePower]

You've gotta laugh haven't you.

I've followed this thread for a fair while with a mixture of amusement and empathy for the struggles Rob has gone through. He's not far from my work so I offered to drop in and see if an extra pair of eyes could notice anything.  I'm an extremely long way from an expert, but have a couple of EMs that I have got or kept going. A Wild Life of similar vintage to Profootball that has never really played up, just a few relay gap issues, and my Stern Disco from '76 which was not working on arrival and I have sorted out a fair number of problems and now runs well.

Seeing that the last report was Profootball was running and then something went wrong, I naively thought it's got to be something simply - maybe it still is? At lunch yesterday I browsed the thread again and thought gee a lot of people who know what they are talking about have offered advise here - am I about to make a dill of myself? 

Anyway it was good to met Rob and we had some fun, but the the thought we would be playing Profootball and swilling beers within the hour soon vanished, some more hours on despair and depression were beginning to set in.  There seem to be a myriad of problems and we lept from one to another with little real progress, but probably more understanding for both of us.

Rob, about the bumpers, I was talking crap last night. Those bottom switches are EOS for the bumpers and act to cancel the B relay - the one hanging under the playfield. They should be set to be normally closed and to open when the bumper reaches fully down. So they are installed correctly, but adjusted badly.  This is as indicated on about row 2 of the schematic. Relay B drives BOTH bumper simultaneously - you were absolutely right.  I've got a scan of a page from a book by Hank de Jager which talks a bit about this - I'll email it to you from work on monday.  The B relay is also responsible for adding the score obtained from the bumpers. (I think the idea of the bumper bottom switch being a scoring switch comes from SS machines) Sorry about the goose chase on this one.

Another thought occurs based on the info you sent through;  The instruction cards say the game resets to a start position upon a touch down being scored. Maybe run your eyes over PF switches that could indicate this. But again maybe this is not the area because the ball launch solenoid never fires.

I'll do some more looking at the schematic and try to come up with a more systematic approach for next time.   I still predict you'll get there and love the game.

[ddstoys]

Good onya Dave for giving rob a Hand.   Bitch of a game i must say from a working game to a basket case again has got me stumped.    Is the game resetting still?

[Ford Fairlane]

not sure what your question mean Daniel. But when you start a game, the stepper steps all the way up to the last position

[ddstoys]

Do all the score reels still stop on 0?  And does the score motor stop?

[FirePower]

Yep it sets up properly for a game start, provided you don't have the ball in the launch trough.

ie score reels reset to zero, ball counter unit goes to pos 0 (game start). By my terminology 1-5 are balls in play, 6 is game over.

So, keep ball out of it, have a credit available, press game start on coin door and everything goes to "good" positions.  Score motor is stopped at this stage.

Now place ball in, closing the switch at the launcher and it fires through every ball in play on the ball count unit and finishes at game over. The ball launch solenoid never fired in this sequence.  (by other means we verified that the ball launcher can fire) So at this stage the score motor just keeps running - it stops at game over I'm prteyy sure. (Rob, is that how you recall it?)

I've been looking at the schematic today and coming up with a test strategy. Some of it is as you are alluding to I think Daniel. ie what contacts drive the score motor - unfortunately lots!  W, C, D, G, P, S, U, V AB and 1C  But it's a staring point.

[Retropin]

With a  fix like this.. and boy - this is a mutha of a fix!

I have to marvel at the designers and engineers of these games.. here we are some 40 years later with chip technology etc... what you have in your game is chip technology also, but each relay is a logic gate... its chips broken down into its purest form.. and yet its repair still eludes us.

I cant begin to imagine just how clever the engineers were who designed these machines.. and in prototype stage, fault finding must have been a nightmare