Pinball Demand 60s, 70s & 80s Pinballs

[The pinballist formally known as Dean Morgan]

I am interested to hear peoples thoughts on the demand vs import quantities for Pinball machines of various ages.  From where I sit I see container loads of Pinballs being bought into the country by Companies such as Child Amusements, Silverball, Mr Pinball, The Pinball Shed, Bumper Action etc.

However, the majority of these containers seem to be 1990s era pins.  There seems to be little coming in from the 'Golden Era' 60s, 70s and 80s!

Now I would have thought that the demographic typical pinball player is in his 30s to 50s and that there would be a lot of demand for these older pins?  Simple economics tells me Supply Vs Demand that there would be less older pins currently available?

Anyway please post your thoughts here as I am interested to read your opinions.  Maybe if there is enough intrest in this thread the Commercial Guys will give it some further thought?  Seems that on Ebay US these old pins go for a steal, so come on guys pick some up and bring em to Aus for fanatics like me.

[The pinballist formally known as Dean Morgan]

On a further note and in support of my comment on less older pins being available it seems that when I look at Ebay Aus, there are a lot more late model pins for sale.  You do not see many Ems, and even less woodrail and push ups!  Does any one monitor and have any stats on this?

[ajlaird]

Well, I'm interested in 80s and 90s primarily - the main reason is that pinball started for me at uni (1986-1989).

[The pinballist formally known as Dean Morgan]

Well, I'm interested in 80s and 90s primarily - the main reason is that pinball started for me at uni (1986-1989).

SHouldn't you have been studying

[ajlaird]

Well, I'm interested in 80s and 90s primarily - the main reason is that pinball started for me at uni (1986-1989).

SHouldn't you have been studying

Hey, I passed with some pretty good marks. But there was a lot of free time!!!

[The pinballist formally known as Dean Morgan]

Well, I'm interested in 80s and 90s primarily - the main reason is that pinball started for me at uni (1986-1989).

SHouldn't you have been studying

Hey, I passed with some pretty good marks. But there was a lot of free time!!!

So does that mean you now have the letters DOP after your name?  Doctor of Pinball or is it MBA Master Ball Adjuster

[Ford Fairlane]

Hey Dean,

I gotta agree with you that we need suppliers to source some of the classics. The 80's and 90's are great but there is something so pure about the EM's

Put me down for a container full of them 

[ajlaird]

Hey, I passed with some pretty good marks. But there was a lot of free time!!!

So does that mean you now have the letters DOP after your name?  Doctor of Pinball or is it MBA Master Ball Adjuster

Neither! But I got pretty reasonable as a player as it was too expensive on a uni student's income otherwise. We definitely played for credits as well as the other players' respect - there was a bunch of us who were addicted. The good thing was that someone else would leave you with credits if they had to go to a lecture or tutorial, so often we played for free.

[illawarra_steelers]

Well it also comes down to supply - nearly all of the stashes of 60s and 70s EMs are gone.

Mark C has said he is still on the hunt for these games - oh man I need a fix of some more 1950s and 1960s pins!

[Strangeways]

Dean - You have tapped straight into "my dream" of importing older pins and retiring on them - Then I would not have to do "real work" ever again !

Most of the collectors my age want older games, and I cannot keep up with the ever growing list of people that ask me to source a game and restore it for them. Personally, I feel this is a niche market and one of these days - I'd like to take "the plunge" into that area.

I think DMDs will always be the mainstay, but the demand for good conditioned 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s machines are at an "all time high". Proof of this was the Child's Amusements gamble on the initial 60's container and the following 70's and 80's container. They all needed work, but most SHOULD be restored in time. To me - They were mini goldmine and yes - I did "get into" Mark's ear about older machines - and I continue to do so. In fact, as long as the machines are imported into Australia via any means, I'll be VERY happy.

From a Business perspective, a 40 Ft Container costs the same to ship whether it is full of diamonds or feathers. The return on investment is justified on DMDs, but it would be a risk on project machines. That's why project machines, even fully working machines from this era may not be cost effective - especially if you have overheads and you need to spend $$$ getting the machines going..

A container of older PROJECT games would be unlikely - unless a private buyer purchases them.
A container of working older games is more likely

The best scenario is that one of the importers locates older games, and bundles them in with some DMDs in the same consignment.

Great thread BTW...  

[Greg]

Dean - You have tapped straight into "my dream" of importing older pins and retiring on them - Then I would not have to do "real work" ever again !

Most of the collectors my age want older games, and I cannot keep up with the ever growing list of people that ask me to source a game and restore it for them. Personally, I feel this is a niche market and one of these days - I'd like to take "the plunge" into that area.

I think DMDs will always be the mainstay, but the demand for good conditioned 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s machines are at an "all time high". Proof of this was the Child's Amusements gamble on the initial 60's container and the following 70's and 80's container. They all needed work, but most SHOULD be restored in time. To me - They were mini goldmine and yes - I did "get into" Mark's ear about older machines - and I continue to do so. In fact, as long as the machines are imported into Australia via any means, I'll be VERY happy.

From a Business perspective, a 40 Ft Container costs the same to ship whether it is full of diamonds or feathers. The return on investment is justified on DMDs, but it would be a risk on project machines. That's why project machines, even fully working machines from this era may not be cost effective - especially if you have overheads and you need to spend $$$ getting the machines going..

A container of older PROJECT games would be unlikely - unless a private buyer purchases them.
A container of working older games is more likely

The best scenario is that one of the importers locates older games, and bundles them in with some DMDs in the same consignment.

Great thread BTW...  

I don't think it would be profitable for a importer to bring in a container of 1950's-70 machines
its all great that these games are wanted but are you happy to pay for them?
( because lets face it  if the importer is not making a profit  (even a small one)  then why would they
bring them in?????

following all the forums over the years on what these (older) pins are worth
there's a big difference between  what the importer/dealer thinks and what the buyer and again what hobbyist thinks they are worth

everyone cracks a fat over Devils Dare, Medusa, Mars God of War etc.
but what are they worth

how do you want them? working or project

what's the $$$ value between working -as is, shopped and a project machine

most projects that I have seen go for around $400.00 -550.
 
then there's the  "as is Machines"  the dealer wants 1000.00 - 1200 (maybe more)
(yet a lot of guys want it for 800.00 because to quote those guys ("its not worth more than $800.")
if shopping a (DMD) machine costs a dealer $500. in time and parts (and most dealers do allow that amount)
how much would it  cost a dealer to shop a EM/SS
( and according to you Nino, to do a EM/SS properly around 50-60 hours)

so for Guys Like Dean, Nino, Tony and Gavin
who can all do there own work on these games  if a dealer buys a container of "working" games
that still need to be "shopped"  and wants 1000-1200.00 "as is" before shopping them
what are they worth?

keep in mind the guys l just mentioned are hobbyists  not the run of the mill buyer like myself

so
 A.1 x Devils Dare  project  whats it worth???  $0.00
B. 1 x Devils Dare  is complete   straight out of the container what's it worth???  $0.00
C. 1 x Devils Dare  shopped /fully working  what's it worth???  $0.00

all three have a back glass   roughly 8/10
body is a 8.5/10

A. has no boards
B. has all boards maybe they work maybe they don't 
C. all boards working and tested

so what are they worth to you
and what would/should a dealer expect to price them as, ( only asking for opinions  )

I've seen a few HH for sale over the last year
average 2,500 to 3,200 working

I know Nino wouldn't pay that (and I'm guessing you guys (hobbyist) are the same)
because as he says "he can fix them myself" so what's a non working but complete one worth?

sorry for all the questions but you see I can understand the pricing/worth of DMD's
but the value of EM's/SS  just eludes me I look at some of these older games and think
"its worth this amount" and it either sells for  twice or half of my best guess, so i have no idea


My point I guess is I don't see why a dealer would risk importing a container of older pins
either as mixed or all "working"

**** PLEASE NOTE BUYERS (like myself)
Gavin, Nino,illawarra_steelers and Dean are Hobbyists   unlike you and I (we buy the FINISHED machines... Big $$$ difference)
so when the hobbyists say something is worth $xxxx amount to them  that's because they source the parts and they put in 50+ hours of UNPAID WORK) so don't go down to a dealer and expect to get a fully working
and fully shopped "Mars God of War" or "Black Knight" for between $400 -1000.00 

[Strangeways]

Well said Greg - could not agree more.

50's - 80's machines always need some work - and for a dealer - Time is Money. It is worth "stirring the market" with the older games to see if there is interest. There was interest, but most of the interest outside the "hobbyist" are for WORKING machines.

Most of the games I've seen need 50 hours work minimum - and that is a fact - from any dealer that I have bought from over the years - even the machines I "inherited"..

The only way it would ever be cost effective is if the labor is done for free... ie. A hobbyist with contacts to import the games, and someone who simply loves doing the work. At the end of the day - some decent money could be made - but at 50 hours minimum - that's a Pinball a week, so you don't want to be "cluttering up" a dealer's time when they can be working on DMDs..

Slowly, over time, I plan on collecting projects (50's - 80's) and putting them aside to restore in 3 - 5 years time. It will keep me busy in my hobby, and who knows where it could lead one day..

[Pinfan]

Awesome write up Greg, great view/opinion..

Interesting choice of titles BTW !  

[illawarra_steelers]

Yes Greg,

Extremely well written 

I still want to buy 3 or 4 vintage games, really need a fix.

Come on Mark, finish your holiday and get another container in of 1960s pins!

[ajlaird]

If you really want to import some earlier pins, why not do it yourself combined with a bunch of like-minded enthusiasts?

Costs:
flights to and from location to source pins
accommodation while on trip to source pins
cost of packing pins and transporting to shipping port
shipping including cost of container and any import duties
anything else I've missed?

We know you can fit 36 pins in a container maybe plus some parts, so divide above costs by 36, and add to actual cost of pin. Find 35 other people (or less if you want more than one) to give you (most of) the money up-front, fly across to the right location and start loading a container. Hmm, this could be the hard part!! I guess there is a bit to learn about importing and getting hold of a container - but it might be worth it.