Author Topic: FIREPOWER ISSUES  (Read 760 times)

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Offline ddstoys

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FIREPOWER ISSUES
« on: July 23, 2010, 09:29:59 PM »
Well i have been toying with firepower i can clock on a credit but cant start a game.  In switch test the start button registers and ive swapped driver boards with time warp so i know the fault is CPU related any suggestions as to where i should start my search.   The CPU has new PIA CPU and all ROMS.  New 5101 and new 6810 ram.   All new chip sockets and interconnect          Also the game boots into attract mode and the CPU tested fine with Leons test rom !@#

Offline Retropin

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2010, 09:53:36 PM »
Going back a bit here mate.. but isnt there a 7407 or similar that acts as a buffer chip to PIA? Is a straight gate.. signal comes in as "high" and exits as "low" ( or vice versa). Id be looking here
Im pretty sure that in test mode Williams games do not recreate what would happen in a real life scenario there are some oddities thrown in.
Also check that if a STRAIGHT 7XXX chip is listed you havent put in a 7LSXXX... the fan out is not enough.. you do require an actual straight 7XXX if listed... been there myself!

Offline FirePower

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2010, 11:26:57 AM »
No concrete solution but a few suggestions and comments that may provide a lead.

Firstly I'm not convinced that Retropin is on the correct track.  It is certainly true that you need to be careful when replacing 74 series chips with substitutes. In essence you can always use a plain 74?? chip, you can also always replace one of these with a 74S, which you don't see many off in my experience. Trying to use a 74LS or 74L will most likely cause problems, but a 74LS can replace a 74L.  But if the input is being detected in switch diagnostics then I'd say all is ok with the buffer chip.  I read Retropin's comments on the difference WMS used in test mode (and I'd be interested to hear more details on this) but in test mode I can't see how you can frig this.  The game will scan the switch matrix in the same way as in game play, the only difference is that the program output is directed to drive the displays rather than solenoids etc.

Next thought is when you say you've tested the cpu with Leon test rom then I'd question how thoroughly you did these tests.  If you whip all the game roms out, install the test rom, power up and watch the leds and then push the diagnostic button to watch the leds for expected outcome then that's good and necessary for success but you need more.   With the tests just as above you aren't examining the addressing of the game and flipper roms.  I'd stick all the chips you plan to use in along with the test chip and then use a logic probe (my preference) or scope to examine each pin on every chip for activity.  You certainly should look at address, data, chip select, R/W and VMA on each chip. My fairly strong guess is that you'll see  a missing signal somewhere here.  Looking at the picture on the thread with the super cap installation around the 5101 the traces look a bit ratty

Finally if this is the same board you've done the super cap mod on I'd be inclined to disconnect this.  I had a quick look over the circuit and reckon what you've done is perfectly ok, but I remove it just to confirm.

Offline FirePower

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2010, 11:39:40 AM »
Having reread my garbled attempt of an explanation of 74 chips substitutions I would be surprised if anyone could actually follow what I was trying to say  ^&^  &^&

Imagine the series of chips 74Lxx, 74LSxx, 74xx, 74Sxx

locate the position of the originally specified chip in this string and it can be replaced with any chip that is located to the right.  ie a 74Sxx can be used for anything, a 74xx should not replace 74Sxx, but would be ok for 74LSxx or 74Lxx and so on.   I hope that is a now bit clearer and perhaps useful to some.

Offline Strangeways

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2010, 12:02:23 PM »

So the game registers coins, but the start button is not recognised in attract mode.

I assume that all other switches in Row3 and Column1 eare working fine ? I'd be looking at 2P3 Pin7. From my Lazer Ball schematic - that is the pinout for the "Start" button. Sounds like a switch matrix issue.
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Offline FirePower

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2010, 12:08:00 PM »
Daniel, this picture is grabbed from your super cap thread - looks to me like you've damaged a trace . Is this the problem?


Offline ddstoys

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2010, 12:47:14 PM »
Thanks for all the replies.   

     Yes Nino the game does coin up just wont start.     

And i had this issue before the super cap was installed and the brocken track was done last night one too many scotches and drilled the wrong spot WHOOOPS that trace is now repaired thats why in the super cap thread i mentioned checking the other side of the board for trace   (Man did i feel like a complete  !!@)

And with the Leons test i checked all the pia and cpu inputs and outputs but not with the rom chips installed ill give that a try and see what i come up with

Offline Retropin

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2010, 12:57:40 PM »
Have you tried Clays switch matrix test where you simulate switch closures with an alligator clip at matrix input connectors??
 At least this will eliminate a board issue or cabinet issue

Offline ddstoys

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 03:09:16 PM »
Hi Gav
           Yes i have done the clays aligator test and all switches register using that method.  I havnt had time to touch the board this weekend if i  find the problem ill be sure to post what it was

Offline ddstoys

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 03:46:47 PM »
UMMMM  I just had a thought could having no balls in the game cause it to not start :tumble:

Offline goodolddays

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 03:57:55 PM »
Yes!  Why didn't I think of that . It needs the 3 balls in the trough before it will start .

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Dave
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Offline Retropin

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 05:11:10 PM »
LOL- Yes Firepower needs 3 balls in the trough to give you a game... this is funny - been there once when i fixed up a Firepower... pretty much done it again!

Offline ddstoys

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2010, 05:46:51 PM »
I installed 3 balls and    !!!  still no joy

Offline ddstoys

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2010, 06:26:24 PM »
 $#$  Yeah problem solved....   the problem was the missing 3 balls and the reason it didnt work when i added the balls was a missing switch on the same column as the ball trough.   All the switches were tested without the playfield connected  %.%  Its always something simple i spent the afternoon buzzing out the cpu tracks and testing chips with the test rom what a wasted afternoon............

Offline goodolddays

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Re: FIREPOWER ISSUES
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2010, 07:26:28 PM »
Great to hear you've solved it Daniel . ^^^
Yeah I hate wasting time too,  .. just been there doing that with Lady Luck recently.
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