Bally Gas Display replacement (prototype just for fun)

[Mr Pinbologist]

Great stuff  for ages i had been thinking of having a go at redesigning/building some of these using LED displays but you've beat me to it  i still might one day just to see how they turn out, but maybe i might just wait and see, if you produce yours as a kit first!!

regarding the original 4543 decoder ICs i bought a shitload of them from Farnell (now called Element14) while stocking up on hard to get ICs.

BTW i like the look of the blue LED displays, would look good in my home made Vortex pin 

[Homepin]

Well I have just crunched the numbers using the Jaycar catalogue as a price guide.

NOTES:

(1) Jaycar 7 segment displays are 13.2mm high (I would supply 18 or 20mm ones) so the Jaycar price is conservative
(2) The displays supplied would NOT look like the original glass as the segments are wider and the 7 digit displays would have a 'full stop' NOT a 'comma'
(3) the displayed '6' and '9' do not have 'tails' as in the original display
(4) I am unsure at this point of available colours in this size - it may be that only 'standard' LED colours would be available (excluding Orange)
(5) This would be a 'build it yourself' project and would be supplied as a kit with instructions
(6) I am still working on a 5 volt supply to run these displays so there is no load on the machines existing power supplies
(7) There would be NO modifications required to your machine - everything plugs in and can be removed leaving no trace

Pricing the 10 PCB's required at my cost price ($5 each), the kit of 5 X complete displays and using the Jaycar prices as a guide the COST OF PARTS for this project would be $289.60.............

Would people be prepared to pay  -  -  -  -  -  -  (a bit of a guess here) around $199 or maybe as high as $249 for this complete KIT?????

Opinions sought please.

[chris288]

I think this is a great alternative for us "Do it your selfers".

Bearing in mind its a kit that you put together yourself I think you have to be very competitively priced compared to other units that are already commercially available and are already assembled with a warranty.

The one that springs to mind is the Rottendog units which are USD$185 ( + shipping ) for 5 x units. They do look good and also have the comma on the displays.
http://www.rottendog.us/DIS021.htm

I think as they are a kit probably around $150 - $170 would be the go but I am fully aware that the cost of all the pcbs and other components in this kit will probably be quite high especially going on Jaycar prices.

I would say Rottendog probably source all their components out of China or Taiwan and who knows they probably have them assembled there too which brings down the cost quite a bit.

I think this is a great project and I dont want to be a "downer" but I think they need to be priced less than other commercially available units so you dont get stuck with a lot of stock that doesn't sell.
I think most of us here on the forum are quite interested but if you want to sell overseas as well our Aussie Dollar being so good might make that quite hard.

Chris

[48]

I would say Rottendog probably source all their components out of China or Taiwan and who knows they probably have them assembled there too which brings down the cost quite a bit.

Not having a go or anything but I reckon Jim would be a bit ticked with that comment!
If you read his site, he says the only thing he can't get made in the US is the boards because of cost.
Definately made in Alabama AFAIK.

Edit: assembled in Al (my bad)

[Homepin]

"Not having a go or anything but I reckon Jim would be a bit ticked with that comment!
If you read his site, he says the only thing he can't get made in the US is the boards because of cost.
Definately made in Alabama AFAIK."

Hahahahahhah - ALL components these days are made in China - like it or not, that is the simple fact of the matter. I looked at the Rottendog and the Pinled ones and I truly don't know how they can make them for the price?

To get anywhere near their prices (for assembled units) I would have to order 5000 units from the factory I use in China and this factory is VERY cheap??? Even at 5000 units I would be paying about AU$35 each ex factory?

My cost price of putting these kits together (buying parts from wholesalers in China) looks to be around the $150~180 so I guess it really isn't worth the excercise?

[Retropin]

Maybe illegal Mexican labour is cheaper than Chinese??

[ddstoys]

A few years back I found the plans to convert Williams displays to LEDs which sounded like a great idea till I got a price on the 7 digit LEDs was going to cost hundreds just for the LEDs

[chris288]

"Not having a go or anything but I reckon Jim would be a bit ticked with that comment!
If you read his site, he says the only thing he can't get made in the US is the boards because of cost.
Definately made in Alabama AFAIK."

Hahahahahhah - ALL components these days are made in China - like it or not, that is the simple fact of the matter. I looked at the Rottendog and the Pinled ones and I truly don't know how they can make them for the price?

To get anywhere near their prices (for assembled units) I would have to order 5000 units from the factory I use in China and this factory is VERY cheap??? Even at 5000 units I would be paying about AU$35 each ex factory?

My cost price of putting these kits together (buying parts from wholesalers in China) looks to be around the $150~180 so I guess it really isn't worth the excercise?

Yeah youré right pretty much all these components are made in China or thereabouts.

The point I wanted to make was sourcing components from O/Seas is always going to be much cheaper than someone like Jaycar.

I speak with some experience because I worked for many years for an electronics parts importer so I know how much companies like Jaycar pay for components. They do have to buy in lots of 100 or lots of 1000 or even 10,000 for things like resistors though and its an awful lot of $$ they have to tie up.

It doesn't surprise me at all the high cost of putting together the kits. And I would think for it to be worthwhile you would have to make at least $50 or$60 ( 30% ) per set to cover all your time expense and trouble.
The company I worked for ( PM me if you want to know) made electronic kits and they typically would double or triple the cost to arrive at a retail price. And this was necessary to cover labour costs and  initial outlay of parts and money tied up holding stock of 50 or more kits that may or may not be a big seller.

Another way may be to do what Classic Playfields do and get people who are interested in the project to express their interest and maybe pay a deposit for an initial kit run.

You have obviously done a fair bit of work so far and I'd hate to see this die in the ass because we really do need a few more of these home grown cheaper alternatives for our beloved pinball machines.

[humpalot]

Yep cost would have to be competitive.

Why not just supply the boards and instructions.  Then let us track down some decent prices for the parts?

[63wizz]

Futurlec a lot cheaper than Jaycar.

Ian

[Homepin]

Well time for an update on this project. I closely measured the current draw of the display and did some homework on power used by these types of 7 segment LED displays.

I am also in discussions with an LED factory in PRC and they have given me an initial quote to make 5000pcs in the correct colour and size with narrow segments and a comma just like the original glass displays (and very similar to 'other' brands of LED replacements available). The cost per piece is very reasonable but when I saw the tooling cost  .

Anyway - still not deterred I pressed on with a prototype 5V - stand alone - 3 amp power supply to run the 5 new LED display modules. There is NO WAY you could fit five new LED replacement modules af ANY brand and expect the 30 year old 5V power supply to keep up - it would cook for sure! The additional power supply takes 12V AC directly from the mains transformer output and the transformer is perfectly capable of handling the extra current from my measurements.

Following are some pics of the prototype, I used bog standard parts so future repairs would be easy. I expect to have some news on complete kits soon. I intend to look at 4 different kits so far but I am open to suggestions:

(1) Bally - 5 X 6 segment display modules with 5V 3A power supply kit and all cables, clips screws etc
(2) Bally - 4 X 7 segment display modules + 1 X 6 segment module with 5V 3A power supply kit and all cables, clips screws etc
(3) Zaccaria - 5 X 6 segment display modules with 5V 3A power supply kit and all cables, clips screws etc
(4) Zaccaria - 5 X 7 segment display modules with 5V 3A power supply kit and all cables, clips screws etc (not 100% on this - more research needed)

[Boots]

Orange would be the predominant color I'd suggest.

The blue would look good on certain machines if you were looking for a custom look.
I would definately be interested in a kit

[Strangeways]

"(1) Bally - 5 X 6 segment display modules with 5V 3A power supply kit and all cables, clips screws etc"

That would be your top seller. If there was choice to select the color "at checkout", it would be an easy buying experience.

[Homepin]

The colour choice is not that simple I'm afraid. After paying for the tooling cost of the 7 segment displays so that I can supply the correct ones with narrow segments and commas (to closely match the original glass displays) the minimum order qty is 1000pcs. of the same colour.

So it would certainly be possible to have any colour made but each colour requires a min order of 1000pcs - that would be 33 FULL sets of 5 displays ....

[Strangeways]

Would the color be orange (as an initial run) ?