Author Topic: Old V New..?  (Read 2155 times)

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Offline Caveoftreasures

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2012, 06:47:26 PM »
yep, prob right Gav, not much has changed except that everything is slimmed down inside the backbox and under the playfield on BNIB of today machines.....

Now, 2 x very small boards replace 4 x large boards...wiring harness is apx half of the mass (or mess as it used to look like), everything is just minimsed and looks neater and tighter etc...making pins this way has become very efficient...

I personally love a good dot martix display with the new red led style compared to the old orange gas type...

Question - how else could u do a dot matrix display today if u dont use a led panel like Stern does....?  !@#

I like the movement of the dot matrix and all the annimations and it can be easily seen when glancing up from the playfield..I would prefer if Stern used the larger DMD from the Sega games like Frankenstein or Batman Forever etc, but DMDs work very well..LCD is only the answer if u want movie stuff prior to hitting the start button, or if the game pauses, and the LCD plays a short clip, but during play it is too high to look up without losing the ball and its very big...so if u keep a led type DMD, except for making it bigger like the Sega one, and perhaps having it multi-coloured like the ones the other company is selling for Attack from mars and Medi-Evil Madness etc, what else could you do ?

*Also, only a very small amount of new Stern games (AC/DC LE) had a very small bell opto issue, and it was on less than 3 percent of LE machines...harly enough to stop Stern BNIB buyers to move away from buying BNIB.
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Offline Cow Corner

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2012, 06:48:39 PM »
Its still the same technology Cavey. The technology at the time was very common place... we werent in the dark ages. Problem is that the games you mention are still the same as the games churned out now. DMD was new at the time and was an innovation... its no longer an innovation, it is in fact a poor way to display graphics in todays market.
As for the game itself.. coils, micro switches etc, this has hardly changed in 100 years.. the micro replaced the leaf switch, optos negated the need for a protruding switch etc.
Hardly anything has changed since IJ and TZ

Plus you can then consider the ColorDMD (LCD) for titles such as MM, AFM and TAF and those 15-20 year old games have in effect "leapfrogged" the current Sterns.  #@#

That doesn't make them better games, what is the big deal with displays anyway? I hardly ever look at a display while playing.
Although I love MM, it is not worth the $$$ that is being asked for it today...nowhere near it. Afm and Taf...pass all day...over-rated.
I would rather have a new stern or a couple of other b/w titles for the same money any day.
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Offline pinsanity

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2012, 07:06:07 PM »
Its still the same technology Cavey. The technology at the time was very common place... we werent in the dark ages. Problem is that the games you mention are still the same as the games churned out now. DMD was new at the time and was an innovation... its no longer an innovation, it is in fact a poor way to display graphics in todays market.
As for the game itself.. coils, micro switches etc, this has hardly changed in 100 years.. the micro replaced the leaf switch, optos negated the need for a protruding switch etc.
Hardly anything has changed since IJ and TZ

Plus you can then consider the ColorDMD (LCD) for titles such as MM, AFM and TAF and those 15-20 year old games have in effect "leapfrogged" the current Sterns.  #@#

That doesn't make them better games, what is the big deal with displays anyway? I hardly ever look at a display while playing.

Leapfrogged in terms of technology. Stern in terms of technology have always been the followers, not the leaders.

The problem is that until JJP came on the scene, Stern was the only player and a lot of pinheads over the last ten years have developed this "apologist" mentality of, "well at least they are still making pinballs".

Stern were literally handed a unique (a virtual monopoly) market position and they failed to take the initiative (instead choosing to become complacent).

Gameplay is another matter altogether and is purely subjective at best.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 07:08:35 PM by pinsanity »

Offline Cow Corner

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2012, 07:09:18 PM »
Still...a a big issue over displays, nah!
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Offline Olivia_jason

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2012, 07:19:06 PM »
Its still the same technology Cavey. The technology at the time was very common place... we werent in the dark ages. Problem is that the games you mention are still the same as the games churned out now. DMD was new at the time and was an innovation... its no longer an innovation, it is in fact a poor way to display graphics in todays market.
As for the game itself.. coils, micro switches etc, this has hardly changed in 100 years.. the micro replaced the leaf switch, optos negated the need for a protruding switch etc.
Hardly anything has changed since IJ and TZ

Plus you can then consider the ColorDMD (LCD) for titles such as MM, AFM and TAF and those 15-20 year old games have in effect "leapfrogged" the current Sterns.  #@#

That doesn't make them better games, what is the big deal with displays anyway? I hardly ever look at a display while playing.

Leapfrogged in terms of technology. Stern in terms of technology have always been the followers, not the leaders.

The problem is that until JJP came on the scene, Stern was the only player and pinheads over the last ten years developed this "apologist" mentality of, "well at least they are still making pinballs".

Stern were literally handed a unique (a virtual monopoly) market position and they failed to take the initiative (instead choosing to become complacent).

Gameplay is another matter altogether and is purely subjective at best.

i actually want to know what innovation stern have done since the days of 90's dmd's? its been over a decade and we have not seen any new innovation in pinball, the change from a 70's machine to a 80's machine is noticeable, a change from a 80's to a 90's machine is noticeable but from 90's to 00's and now we are into the 10's and there isnt an once of difference really. and thats over 20 years and we are stil lat the same level of inovation.

its not just a matter of difference of display cow, but look at the difference in games and layouts from reel's to alfa scores to dmd's. when you compare how the display is along with the games them selves they all changed together in most parts. and no upgrade really from the late nineties till now on either game layouts and display. i fail to see how a later stern is any better than a dmd of the 90's, they are the same machines and you have to agree that is the case cow corner. only difference is one is new and one is old, it would be like holden selling the same model como for 20 years and not changing it, and the only reason you could say to buy that car is because the old one is worn out not because it is any different.

lucky stern arent a phone company lol, you would be still walking around with brick sized mobiles from 1990, lol
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 07:22:30 PM by Olivia_jason »

Offline Strangeways

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2012, 07:27:14 PM »
Its still the same technology Cavey. The technology at the time was very common place... we werent in the dark ages. Problem is that the games you mention are still the same as the games churned out now. DMD was new at the time and was an innovation... its no longer an innovation, it is in fact a poor way to display graphics in todays market.
As for the game itself.. coils, micro switches etc, this has hardly changed in 100 years.. the micro replaced the leaf switch, optos negated the need for a protruding switch etc.
Hardly anything has changed since IJ and TZ

Plus you can then consider the ColorDMD (LCD) for titles such as MM, AFM and TAF and those 15-20 year old games have in effect "leapfrogged" the current Sterns.  #@#

That doesn't make them better games, what is the big deal with displays anyway? I hardly ever look at a display while playing.

Leapfrogged in terms of technology. Stern in terms of technology have always been the followers, not the leaders.

The problem is that until JJP came on the scene, Stern was the only player and pinheads over the last ten years developed this "apologist" mentality of, "well at least they are still making pinballs".

Stern were literally handed a unique (a virtual monopoly) market position and they failed to take the initiative (instead choosing to become complacent).

Gameplay is another matter altogether and is purely subjective at best.

i actually want to know what innovation stern have done since the days of 90's dmd's? its been over a decade and we have not seen any new innovation in pinball, the change from a 70's machine to a 80's machine is noticeable, a change from a 80's to a 90's machine is noticeable but from 90's to 00's and now we are into the 10's and there isnt an once of difference really. and thats over 20 years and we are stil lat the same level of inovation.

its not just a matter of difference of display cow, but look at the difference in games and layouts from reel's to alfa scores to dmd's. when you compare how the display is along with the games them selves they all changed together in most parts. and no upgrade really from the late nineties till now on either game layouts and display. i fail to see how a later stern is any better than a dmd of the 90's, they are the same machines and you have to agree that is the case cow corner. only difference is one is new and one is old, it would be like holden selling the same model como for 20 years and not changing it, and the only reason you could say to buy that car is because the old one is worn out not because it is any different.

lucky stern arent a phone company lol, you would be still walking around with brick sized mobiles from 1990, lol


Stern's mantra has always been to copy other manufacturer's ideas. That is fact. If there's no other company innovating pinball, then as far as Stern is concerned, that's the level they are happy to stay at. That's why Stern are sweating on JJP. New kid on the black has ideas, and it is only because of this that we will see Stern FORCED to copy their technology. That's Stern's track record.
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Offline Caveoftreasures

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 07:32:55 PM »
everyones a stern basher these days, but u have to look at what they had to deal with....

Pin2000 failed, it didnt keep pinball going for the biggest player, so was Stern to follow suit and try some INNOVATION like that and then closedown....or do u do what u know has worked for the last 100 years and stick to basics...?  they stuck to basics and survived...

yes, some games like Avatar with 1 x ramp, and transformers was basic etc, i agree, the cost cutting days were not days/games to be proud of, but what else was Stern to do...Pinball that works is 2 x flippers (or 3 flippers) , pop bumpers, 2 or 3 ramps, a good DMD, plus some great shots n decent cabinet art etc etc...title is subjective, but they stuck to what works...what else can u do, except try something like Pin2000 and then lose even more of a very very limited market...

Look at WOZ, theres some innovation with the LCD, and its getting a warm at best response..who gives a crap about whats under the playfield, who cares, cause it dont make a difference if the gameplay, the shots, the flow isnt right...except the RGB lighting and clear inserts, its still the exact same format as any std other dmd pinball...its still got flippers, ramps etc etc etc...a LCD doesnt make or break innovation...and to a player, who will never see whats in a locked metal box under the playfield, the only thing about pinball he gets to rate, is gameplay..so innovation in the context everyone is raving about is bullshit in my mind...u can run a pinball machine on diamonds, or alien technology, no good unless the playfield works well with shots n flow, and its a decent modern title/subject matter...

Pin2000 was innovation..didnt help at all did it...what innovation are we missing...everyone keeps saying there a lack of innovatio, so OK, lets have the people who keep talking about innovation please list all the innovation and great ideas that are so easy to imagine, we should have had it ages ago, list away the innovation which has been staring us all in the face we should have included as a pinball industry ?  !@# !@# !@# !@# !@# !@#
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Offline Cow Corner

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2012, 07:34:04 PM »
I guess the only people stern have to keep happy are the people who buy from them.
 %$%
If all this talk of innovation is limited to a display it is a pretty lame argument, a display does not make a great game, it may enhance it but does not make it great.
What else do you want done besides from wifi that some are asking for( which I can take or leave) and better build quality? I am all for better build quality for sure.
What is this BIG innovation or innovations that are needed to bring major revolution to pinball and does it need it?
Sure give me something new that I like and makes sense and I am all for it but it is pinball after all, we are not talking about re-inventing the wheel here
 !@#
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 07:40:11 PM by Cow Corner »
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Online Retropin

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2012, 07:36:28 PM »
yep, prob right Gav, not much has changed except that everything is slimmed down inside the backbox and under the playfield on BNIB of today machines.....

Now, 2 x very small boards replace 4 x large boards...wiring harness is apx half of the mass (or mess as it used to look like), everything is just minimsed and looks neater and tighter etc...making pins this way has become very efficient...

I personally love a good dot martix display with the new red led style compared to the old orange gas type...

Question - how else could u do a dot matrix display today if u dont use a led panel like Stern does....?  !@#

I like the movement of the dot matrix and all the annimations and it can be easily seen when glancing up from the playfield..I would prefer if Stern used the larger DMD from the Sega games like Frankenstein or Batman Forever etc, but DMDs work very well..LCD is only the answer if u want movie stuff prior to hitting the start button, or if the game pauses, and the LCD plays a short clip, but during play it is too high to look up without losing the ball and its very big...so if u keep a led type DMD, except for making it bigger like the Sega one, and perhaps having it multi-coloured like the ones the other company is selling for Attack from mars and Medi-Evil Madness etc, what else could you do ?

*Also, only a very small amount of new Stern games (AC/DC LE) had a very small bell opto issue, and it was on less than 3 percent of LE machines...harly enough to stop Stern BNIB buyers to move away from buying BNIB.


Question - how else could u do a dot matrix display today if u dont use a led panel like Stern does....?  !@#

I cant make them, but chances are i can regas them.

LCD is only the answer if u want movie stuff prior to hitting the start button, or if the game pauses, and the LCD plays a short clip, but during play it is too high to look up without losing the ball and its very big.

Mate.. thats ONE game.. WOZ. LCD can be any size you want it to be.. can be placed where you want it also. Theres no reason why it has to be the size of WOZ.. the one in your Iphone or Ipad is much smaller and also very very common... EASILY purchased. No reaon why the LCD cant be the same size and in the same position as your current DMD but graphics could be awesome.
LCD is cheaper than DMD now... too many components in DMD that all have to be integrated, each individually placed.
Had TAF, TZ,BSD etc had LCD instead of DMD then think of the imagery they could convey and just imagine what they would have done had they had this new technology.
The fact that Stern failed to introduce this is unfathomable.
WOZ is too large and the translite/ Backglass needs to come back with the LCD below... its a proven balance

Online Retropin

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2012, 07:41:41 PM »
I guess the only people stern have to keep happy are the people who buy from them.
 %$%
If all this talk of inovation is limited to a display it is a pretty lame argument, a display does not make a great game, it may enhance it but does not make it great.
What else do you want done besides from wifi that some are asking for( which I can take or leave) and better build quality? I am all for better build quality for sure.
What is this BIG inovation or inovations that are needed to bring major revolution to pinball and does it need it?
Sure give me something new that I like and makes sense and I am all for it but it is pinball after all, we are not talking about re-inventing the wheel here
 !@#

Its not just about a display Daz... this is just a small example of the lack of idea fronted games that Stern have churned out over the years. And NO.. they dont just have to keep the people that buy Stern games happy... they desperately need to broaden their market as it wasnt so long back that Stern was floundering and needed a cash injection to keep going. This cash injection  gave us better titles and possibly better design game wise ( always an arguable point) but Stern also failed to bring anything new to pinball and without that it wont be long before its floundering again trying to work out why the recipe doesnt work

Offline Strangeways

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2012, 07:43:15 PM »
everyones a stern basher these days, but u have to look at what they had to deal with....

Pin2000 failed, it didnt keep pinball going for the biggest player, so was Stern to follow suit and try some INNOVATION like that and then closedown....or do u do what u know has worked for the last 100 years and stick to basics...?  they stuck to basics and survived...

..snip..

Pin2000 was innovation..didnt help at all did it...what innovation are we missing...everyone keeps saying there a lack of innovatio, so OK, lets have the people who keep talking about innovation please list all the innovation and great ideas that are so easy to imagine, we should have had it ages ago, list away the innovation which has been staring us all in the face we should have included as a pinball industry ?  !@# !@# !@# !@# !@# !@#

Stating facts does not mean anyone is a Stern basher.

As I've mentioned on another thread, Bally Williams simply moved their efforts into a more lucrative market. Pinball was secondary to them as the ENTIRE industry was fledgling. P2K was not an outright failure - it was simply BAD timing. ALL the other manufacturers had the insight to move on. Stern didn't. This is not Stern bashing at all. These are facts. Some may say Stern didn't have the insight to move into the gambling arena. Who knows, they may have done well. But the facts are that Stern have not innovated ANYTHING since the decline of the industry ??

Name something that Stern has brought to pinball since 1999 ?

Just so we are on the same page, Brett - I have two Sterns in my collection that I would NEVER part with, and BOTH have slight innovations for their time. But they are not DMDs.
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Offline Cow Corner

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2012, 07:46:21 PM »
Point taken on lcd but bring what NEW, what is that you guys want besides from a lcd?
I am really interested to hear what is this big innovation that Stern should have done by now, that obviously many of you guys would have done if you were in charge?
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Offline Caveoftreasures

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2012, 08:07:41 PM »
Point taken on lcd but bring what NEW, what is that you guys want besides from a lcd?
I am really interested to hear what is this big innovation that Stern should have done by now, that obviously many of you guys would have done if you were in charge?

+ 100

if its so easy, anyone who has ever said Stern follows or hasnt innovated should easily be able to come up with a list of things that we have all been missing since 1999...

I am all ears open....cause criticism without answers to me, isnt constructive criticism, its just knocking...which i find frustrating personally....espescially if u havent emailed Stern with these great ideas over the past decade...

Can anyone list this innovation that has been staring us all in the face but no one has done for 13 years....(and it has to be gameplay orientated, not new 2013 computer boards hidden in a metal box the player will never see or know about).. it has to be both visual or at least audible, or be something u can see, touch or experience...except a LCD, what is innovation for pinball...shld be very easy for people to list,,or is it ??  !@#
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 08:11:46 PM by Caveoftreasures »
Behind every garage door could be a pinball collectors
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Into  Stern -JJP - Cars , Road Bikes- Jet Skis - Star Trek n Sci-Fi & Electronics    
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Offline Cow Corner

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2012, 08:25:02 PM »
Point taken on lcd but bring what NEW, what is that you guys want besides from a lcd?
I am really interested to hear what is this big innovation that Stern should have done by now, that obviously many of you guys would have done if you were in charge?

+ 100

if its so easy, anyone who has ever said Stern follows or hasnt innovated should easily be able to come up with a list of things that we have all been missing since 1999...

I am all ears open....cause criticism without answers to me, isnt constructive criticism, its just knocking...which i find frustrating personally....espescially if u havent emailed Stern with these great ideas over the past decade...

Can anyone list this innovation that has been staring us all in the face but no one has done for 13 years....(and it has to be gameplay orientated, not new 2013 computer boards hidden in a metal box the player will never see or know about).. it has to be both visual or at least audible, or be something u can see, touch or experience...except a LCD, what is innovation for pinball...shld be very easy for people to list,,or is it ??  !@#

I am not standing up for or knocking stern, I own two stern games, like a few others and detest many and will probably buy another new one from them  but I really want to know about this BIG innovation that should be there by now.

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Offline Strangeways

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Re: Old V New..?
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2012, 08:38:22 PM »
Point taken on lcd but bring what NEW, what is that you guys want besides from a lcd?
I am really interested to hear what is this big innovation that Stern should have done by now, that obviously many of you guys would have done if you were in charge?

+ 100

if its so easy, anyone who has ever said Stern follows or hasnt innovated should easily be able to come up with a list of things that we have all been missing since 1999...

I am all ears open....cause criticism without answers to me, isnt constructive criticism, its just knocking...which i find frustrating personally....espescially if u havent emailed Stern with these great ideas over the past decade...

Can anyone list this innovation that has been staring us all in the face but no one has done for 13 years....(and it has to be gameplay orientated, not new 2013 computer boards hidden in a metal box the player will never see or know about).. it has to be both visual or at least audible, or be something u can see, touch or experience...except a LCD, what is innovation for pinball...shld be very easy for people to list,,or is it ??  !@#

Why should I list something that has never been innovated ? How can I list something that does not even EXIST  !@#

My era is the golden age of pinball, where innovation was the domain of ALL the manufacturers. That's what made the industry so successful. Can you list the Stern innovations since 1999 ? Can ANYONE list the innovative ideas that Stern have come up with that have impacted the industry since 1999..

I'm no Stern basher, as I stated, I have two CLASSIC Sterns in my collection and both have innovative ideas that made them unique and collectible.
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