JJP & diff model levels ?? what do u think ?? std body and widebody avail too ?

[Caveoftreasures]

HISTORY QUICKLY
The LE WOZ has been widely well recieved and ofcourse SOLD OUT. Overall widebody build/innovation/LCD/RGB leds/clear inserts/hardware in cabinet base/computing power abilities/3 playfields/5 flippers /Invisiglass/clearcoating p/f & cabinet clearcoat etc have all been features people are mentioning for the machines success.

PRICING TO COMPARE TO FUTURE RELEASES
The price for a widebody was only USA $6500 pre-order or $7,000 later in the USA plus delivery. Customers who ordered directly thru JJP have to pay their own shipping to Australia and other gst/customs costs etc, unless organised by JJP at a agreed upon cost.
Bumper had the Green LE WOZ listed as being $9250 landed when stock was available...I was told today by Bumper directly that Bumper may have
2 x LE WOZ machines now avail for $9850 plus delivery.

The STD Silver WOZ model is going to be apparently $8590.00 landed plus delivery when released for sale at Bumper. A $650 saving compared to the original Bumper LE WOZ pricing if u now buy a Std Silver WOZ. You can buy your own topper n add your own green powdercoating etc and even buy your own invisiglass with the savings and come out about even perhaps, but it will not be a numbered LE ofcourse.
The Hobbit in the USA is USA $7500 pre-order or USA $8000 after pre-order plus delivery.
Bumper have the Hobbit listed at $9250 landed plus delivery and are taking orders. No price for the Std Hobbit has been released from JJP to Bumper.

THE FUTURE QUESTIONs - ?
Given the prices for the 2 x models so far have been very similar/same as the Stern LE pricing in the USA, and higher than the Stern LE pricing in Australia so far, (but only by a very small amount and the machine is widebody plus plus plus), should JJP look at doing a std body machine like a PRO to cater for pinball buyers who like the JJP build quality and style and give people the ability to buy a JJP Pinball but at a lot less money.

Are there Australian Stern Pro buyers like me (who usually would not buy a BNIB machine for anymore than say $6600 - incl shaker n delivery) who would swap brands to JJP if they liked the title and like to buy a machine for the $6600 pricing if JJP had a model which wasnt fully loaded and
costing $9250 like the Hobbit plus delivery which will equate to a $9500 machine...JJP are catering to LE buyers only so far...

Should JJP do a Pro version for people who want to save the $3,000 ?  Does this open the market up alot more for JJP and give them the ability to take more customers away from Stern ? Do operators want to have to pay $9500 for a JJP machine to site, when they can site a Stern for 3 grand less.

I would like to see a JJP Pro model for the similar $6600 market...what are your thoughts if they did a JJP Pro model, which saves you money but you still get the JJP quality.
Does everyone want a widebody everytime JJP does a title ? Do people want JJP std bodies instead/as well and save some money if desired.
 
$3,000 is a big saving, hence why there are so many Pro buyers JJP could tap into. We all wanted Stern pinballs to have extra features, be better built, but i dont think everyone wanted to pay an extra $3,000 to get it. Thats what we now have with both Stern and JJP. Yes the Pros are now alot better, so could JJP tap this $6600 Pro with shaker n delivery end price market as well, and still cater for the LE more expensive market as well by producing a PRO and a LE model with the diferent pricing to suit....
JJP is great for the industry. Quality is lifting everywhere it would seem.

What are your thoughts about a JJP Pro model and save some money like PRO buyers want ?  

[Pop Bumper Pete]

Great idea there Cavey
cutting down features sure worked for Stern; Batman, Ironman, Transformers

A game is designed with a particular area of playfield to play with, cutting a few inches out of the middle and stiching the two halves together aint going to work

also a second design means more developement work, more work means more money. where is the savings going to come from?

[Caveoftreasures]

It didnt work cause they cut the features n didnt cut the price..Going from a 9500 machine to a 6600 machine means different models with different feature lists. Same example is a Pro vs a LE and what u get etc.
Does that mean only a LE machine, or a LE priced machine is the only good pinball machine made ? there were no widebodies made since mid nineties, yet many many thousands of std body machines have sold since then. Why does JJP only have to have a widebody for 9500, why not a std body for 6600 ish etc.

I can balance that out by saying AC/DC , X Men and probably Avengers PRO models have been the opposite to those cost cutting models u mentioned. The current Pro models are far better. I dont see the bad cost cutting boring machines happening again...the new Pro models are superior to before.
I have played them all and u notice a big difference. But this is about JJP and what models/choices they could give and offer the public. Not everyone wants or can spend 9500 to get a BNIB.

Any design work on anything costs money whether it is JJP or Stern.....but the real question is do JJP buyers always have to fork out 9500 for a machine, compared to 6600 ish.  Once one design is done for one std size body, its in the bag forever, just like JJps widebody planning n research..once one widebody is done, the template is their forever..same if they design n produce a std body.

what about site operators wanting to spend say 6600 instead of 9500 to site a machine. do u have to spend so much...traditionally operators usually site the Pro model, at the Pro models purchasing costs, being alot lower than the LE.

The Pro model for Stern sells alot of machines each year...why couldnt JJP do a quality PRO model as well ? capture more market. ?

[Retropin]

You have to be very careful when producing wide body games... i Know JJP has packed a lot into WOZ and its gameplay has yet to be determined. You have to put a lot into a widebody to prevent it just being a slower game... there are many widebodies that are just a waste of timber and yes, the centre could well be cut out and make a much better game.

If JJP are going to make a sniff under $10K widebody machines all the time then i suppose he is targeting the premium top end market only... budget versions arent necessary. You also have to bear in mind that this is not JJP main income.. the redemption machines are and so the push to make bigger profits to survive doesnt count. It does for Stern as its the ONLY income.
Theres no way in the world id pay almost $10K for a pin and so JJP wont be seeing my business if thats the deal... then again, i couldnt justify $6K either... id rather stick to my 25th hand titles and buy me a classic Triumph Herald car instead for $6K

[Ant68]

25th hand titles
That's funny 

You have to be very careful when producing wide body games... i Know JJP has packed a lot into WOZ and its gameplay has yet to be determined. You have to put a lot into a widebody to prevent it just being a slower game... there are many widebodies that are just a waste of timber and yes, the centre could well be cut out and make a much better game.

If JJP are going to make a sniff under $10K widebody machines all the time then i suppose he is targeting the premium top end market only... budget versions arent necessary. You also have to bear in mind that this is not JJP main income.. the redemption machines are and so the push to make bigger profits to survive doesnt count. It does for Stern as its the ONLY income.
Theres no way in the world id pay almost $10K for a pin and so JJP wont be seeing my business if thats the deal... then again, i couldnt justify $6K either... id rather stick to my 25th hand titles and buy me a classic Triumph Herald car instead for $6K

[ajlaird]

Has WOZ sold out?

Will the Hobbit sell out?

No need to do anything different if the answer is Yes.

[Caveoftreasures]

What about if u want to sell more than 1000 or 1500 pinballs per year maximum ? 

STERN must sell 6 or 8 thousand machines per year I would imagine...can JJP survive on 2 titles only in a 3 year period, or 2500 units only in a 3 year period. ?   
 
No one wants to see a less expensive model from JJP.....?  .... to up the competition or to see more titles per annum from JJP ? 

Spoke to a few WOZ buyers today who wanted to see more titles per year n more range in models...some WOZ buyers like some of the ideas expressed, espescially for site operators.

[Retropin]

...can JJP survive on 2 titles only in a 3 year period, or 2500 units only in a 3 year period. ?   
 


Cors not... thats why he is doing it

[Olivia_jason]

 

[Olivia_jason]

 

[Caveoftreasures]

Yes. I think you can still have a very fun n great game of pinball on a BNIB Pro level machine which is still alot of money at $6600. Spending close to 10 grand on a pinny is serious serious money....that takes dedication to the max....I am dedicated, but not past $6600 unless something crazy happens and the model is out of this world x 100.

Buying a LE is the way to go with the WOZ for sure, correct...u would only build a LE from a Std WOZ model if u missed out on the real deal LE Emerald City...I wonder how many standard silver ones have been sold in Australia ?...when i asked Bumper Action the other day, the answer was very very few so far....but that may change once people start to see n play the LE WOZ...Bumper has 2 x LE WOZ for sale at the moment...perhaps everyone will keep their LE WOZ machines when they get them, perhaps some may come on the 2nd hand market quickly..hard to say yet,,and if the prices will be elevated or will drop...depends soley on what people really think of gameplay. Looking forward to playing one, as are alot of people i guess.

NEXT RELEASE INFO - GENERAL UPDATE
Also I am told that std Hobbitt models will not be released unless all 1500 LE Hobbitt models are fully sold first...and also was updated, that people in Australia cannot order the Hobbitt directly from JJP, and must order thru JJP Distributor Bumper Action...ordering direct thru JJP only still avail thru USA companies only at this stage....even if u ordered direct thru JJP with the WOZ, the rules have now changed apparently according to Bumper as directed by JJP for future service and warranty issues.

Apparently, a few hundred Hobbitt models have been sold already....looking promising so far for the second model.

[Caveoftreasures]

...can JJP survive on 2 titles only in a 3 year period, or 2500 units only in a 3 year period. ?   
 


Cors not... thats why he is doing it

I ask the question because if Stern has been barely surviving in the past financially on 4 times the production per annum, with all upfront n building costs already out of the way, how could JJP survive on such a low amount whilst still battling with all the upfront costs they have building the company, buying plant n  machinery, etc etc etc...Its a valid question i would have thought.  Maybe JJP has a longer plan which caters for upfront losses if thats the case...
Most start up businesses lose money in their first 2 to 5 years....espescially when starting everything from scratch.....maybe his aim is to be bigger n better than Stern n match them...maybe he will stay very small and a quarter of the size with a quarter of the production per annum and thats his aim, but people who say they know Jack say he is not one to be number 2 to anyone...

...Alot of people have said Stern has to play catch up to JJP, but not if Stern are outselling JJP 3 or 4 to 1....Innovation is great but if it doesnt equate to quantity, then what have u achieved if u only take a very small percentage of the market away from the competitor u wanted to compete against......maybe It might be worthwhile me sending JJP a email and I should be asking Jack what his plans are and share the correct n factual provided JJP answers for anyone who is interested in what JJP has planned.  Cant hurt.

[Retropin]

Mate.. it doesnt matter.

Jacks no fool... he has set up a whole new pinball company and has obviously figured he can survive quite well making 2500+ premium machines. Whatever jacks business plan for the pinball side of things is, is irrelevant.. you will never find out as it is HIS plan... maybe over 5 years.. maybe 10 years.. its not your question to ask.
Have you ever thought that Jack doesnt really care for being another Stern.. the product is quite obviously up a few notches and my take is that he saw what he thought pinball shouldnt be.. ie Stern.
So what if Stern chuck out 4 titles a year.. so far most of them havent been worth a  toss.. new cash flow has seen a better product ( so im told), but with investors comes the push to elevate profits with every title... its a hard line to follow.
Noone has said Stern has to play catch up.. what we have said is that JJP are doing stuff that really Stern should have been doing already.. the lazy attitude and the " Only manufacturer of real pinballs in the world" attitude is an excuse to churn out mediocre after mediocre.
I thought ACDC sucked.. had a guy in my shop today who had just played one and he left scratching his head...
just didnt grab me.. was his statement. This was the title that is meant to bounce Stern into a new era.
fact is that the artwork still has the same formula ( its never really worked unless you have no design skills).. play is faster and theme is better.. so what? Title doesnt make a game.. nor does a ball draining monster.. welcome ACDC.

When there is no competition its easy to get excited over B &C grade machines.. but the " im happy as at least its pinball" just doesnt cut the cheese... bit like getting excited over a Citroen 2CV cos at least its a car and it moves

[Olivia_jason]

 

[Caveoftreasures]

true....and thats why i asked if JJP Pinball can survive on only 2500 machines in a 3 year period...

when i talk JJP, I only mean the JJP Pinball business and its gross/net/profit/loss per annum earnings etc, the other JJP business is irrelevant to the seperate entity of JJP Pinball... Gary Stern might have a seperate gold business...but I dont take those profits into consideration when i talk Stern pinball for example...its pinball company and pinball company performance and competitiveness only to keep the playing field even and relevant for example...hence i forget/dont take into consideration redemption machines or gold stocks..not in the equasion. Each business has to run on its own merits.

The only way i see numbers of machines for JJP to be getting up there per annum, is more titles per annum, or more levels of machines, ie- Pro and Premium and LE as an example...cause WOZ LE has sold 1000, but WOZ Std according to JJP dealers have sold next to nothing....because of the way the pricing structure is so far....if JJP are to grow, something has to change, more models or more titles per annum.

Apparently JJP are already looking at this....they are just a bit busy at the moment with trying to finish WOZ whilst building n growing n planning... a tall order all at once...hence it will prob take another good 2 or 3 years for things to be close to evening out ?