Author Topic: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.  (Read 1766 times)

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Offline Strangeways

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2012, 01:54:35 PM »

I understand exactly what Mitch is saying. He is not alone in his thinking. I'd like to add my thoughts.

Pinball as an investment - Now I know there was an infamous diatribe written years ago where pinball was "drying up" and a "mercy dash to Italy" was organized to find the last bastion of pinball. It was BS. Same article describes pinball as an investment. It is not. It is an asset. Buying a NIB is not an investment. as soon as you set it up it has lost 15% of its value. The ONLY way I would look at pinball as an investment is if a business or hobbyist bought NIB machines PURELY to sell in 10 years time - as a NIB. Any pinball that has been set up to play is not an investment. I hear of people losing money after selling games - but that's no loss of their investment - because they most likely bought it for too much. Like buying a second hand car - you don't buy them as investments, you buy them to drive them.

Dealers and importers. Years ago, a collector I knew was buying "A" grade titles at market value. Was HAPPY to pay the prices AT THAT TIME from a Dealer. Built up a collection and everything's looking great. This collector dabbles in importing, and finds out how much these games were purchased for overseas and he completely changes his mind and now claims "I was robbed. I was ripped off. I was charged way over the buy price". Now that changes perspective completely. The market price was FINE until he found out the real purchase price. But do you think this person's price drops on his machines when he sells them ? No - INCREASES the price even further !! Money and greed changes people..

Importers have been springing up everywhere. Motivation is the key here. Do they import because they want to make a quick return ? Or because they are passionate about pinball ? Even seasoned dealers fall into the same trap - They have little product knowledge. They are blinded by the profits. So what happens is the competition increases, prices drop and we all think the big winner is the buyer. Well that is not exactly true. The last 6 months has really opened my eyes - and I thought I'd seen just about everything ! The importers and dealers are dropping prices, but at the same time they are cutting corners - spending LESS time "reconditioning" machines as they want to keep their profit. so when you see a cheaper game on eBay - I can almost guarantee in has corners cut everywhere. What I'm seeing in collectors homes, and some of the game that have been "repaired" by so called "professionals" - is the lowest standard for many years. This is all driven by competition - drop the price, but protect the profit at the customer's expense.

Newbies are the target of eBay machines. Education is the only way to be fully prepared. By way of forums or other outlets - newbies need to understand what they are paying for, and identify what has deliberately been missed. The biggest issue with pinball imports is it is not regulated. At the end of the day one dealer's "fully overhauled" is another dealers "High End Restoration". It is a huge task to import machines. A lot of work and a lot of fun. The success of an importer is their motivation and their product knowledge.

"Good Guys" as mentioned earlier - Well they keep some repairers very busy  #@#

Some of my friends call me a "dealer" as I'm in the industry. That's fair enough, I've been lucky to be in the industry with the family business since I was born. By no means am I trying to promote my business, as I don't need to. But some of the machines I've seen over the last years have been appalling, and in some way, I feel like I'm always apologizing to new owners as they have been fleeced on so many occasions.

But without the importers taking risks importing games, the hobby would be dead. There just is not enough machines to go around. So if it was not for the importers, then demand would be massive and prices would go up accordingly. Prices are high because dealers want to protect their profits. That's Business for ya !
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Offline Extra Ball

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2012, 02:33:59 PM »
pinball importers are essentailly second-dealers, and would be accountable under the laws governing that type of business? Agreed with Nino, alot of dodgy stuff done, and some of it dangerous. But at the end of the day keep importing, and when these things die in couple of years I will drag the trailer around the garage sales for cheap projects  %.%

Offline Homepin

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2012, 02:57:53 PM »
But at the end of the day keep importing, and when these things die in couple of years I will drag the trailer around the garage sales for cheap projects  %.%

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Offline Strangeways

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2012, 03:11:08 PM »
pinball importers are essentailly second-dealers, and would be accountable under the laws governing that type of business? Agreed with Nino, alot of dodgy stuff done, and some of it dangerous. But at the end of the day keep importing, and when these things die in couple of years I will drag the trailer around the garage sales for cheap projects  %.%

There are laws governing the sale of second hand electrical devices. Pinballs sold must adhere to AS 3760. I have not seen one single pinball machine with an AS3760 certification. I'm becoming certified shortly, and I will be testing ALL games brought into my Business. That's about it really. ANYONE can set up a Business and sell pinball machines and they will either claim they don't know about the standards or they don't want to know. The risks are huge and the fines can put you out of business very quickly.

When I refer to regulations, I use the car industry as an example. You cannot sell a Car without a roadworthy. The roadworthy is a checklist common to almost all cars. Are the tires good ? Is it leaking oil ? Do all the indicators work ? This can be applied to pinball, but it will never be agreed upon by the industry. Car yards have licenses (LMCT). Anyone can sell a pinball.

Using AS 3760 as an example here - I see work where the dealer simply cuts off the Euro plug and wires in a second hand Aussie Plug. Or better still - Just buy a $2 extension lead from bunnings, cut off the female plug and wire it directly into the game. Don't bother with the Varistor, and leave the 8 AMP fuse in its holder, then charge $250 for the "service". I'm seeing this kind of work all the time. Why not just get the work experience guy to go these remedial tasks ?

Any machine not correctly jumpered or fused will cause all sorts of problems. I'm seeing games with NEW fuses - they look great ! But are they the right value ? NEVER !! Two days ago, I looked at a game with 10 amp fuses in EVERY single fuse holder (SYS80b underplayfield) - They should be 2 Amp SB or 1 Amp SB. Another game tripping the safety switch in the house. The dealer whacked a 20 Amp fuse in a 4 Amp SB mains fuse holder. The game had a fault within it's electrical system - and the solution was to over fuse it ? Swap the fuse out to a 4 Amp SB and it blew within 10 minutes. These are SIMPLE electrical safety issues which should be standardized, but are not. But the game looked great in the showroom.

A pinball roadworthy should START to look like this ;

New power cable with AS3760 adhered to
ALL fuses checked for correct rating and type
Machine jumpered for local operation

Now that's only three quick checks. But EVERY machine I've looked at in the last 6 months has had one or all three checks NOT adhered to. Not one single game has has all three.

Drawing a comparison with the car industry, it would be like a car dealer selling a car with no tread on the tires, a hole in the radiator and no brakes. Now what would happen when this car drives out the driveway ?

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Offline Caveoftreasures

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2012, 04:05:00 PM »
Unfortunately, it will probably take someone being electrocuted and killed before any authorities step in and add some sort of guidelines for the pinball industry and dealers/sellers to follow...for which they will say we always follow them, and its only the private importers who dont do the jobs properly.  *.*  People who take short cuts with anything electrical, or fuse wise is asking for a house to be burnt down.

The shame of it all is, that some TV newsreporter will then get some expert on TV saying old pinballs are dangerous and the public should stay away...that will be great for our industry...NOT.
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Offline Greg

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2012, 04:52:16 PM »
Would you buy a used pinball machine from this man?





















yes he looks as honest as the rest that I've meet
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Offline RottyGuy

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2012, 07:34:19 PM »
Every pinball sold should have a current test tag. Not one used pinball I've bought has been tagged. My NIB from AMD is the only pin I've bought which has been tagged, though no license number present.

Offline MartyJ

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2012, 07:55:39 PM »
Every pinball sold should have a current test tag. Not one used pinball I've bought has been tagged. My NIB from AMD is the only pin I've bought which has been tagged, though no license number present.

No new device needs to be tagged, only once its 12 months old or second hand.

Offline Retropin

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2012, 08:10:27 PM »
Its also only good for the moment its tagged.
Could well develope a fault 2 seconds later

Offline Strangeways

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2012, 08:20:30 PM »
Its also only good for the moment its tagged.
Could well develope a fault 2 seconds later

Could develop a fault one second later, or it may never develop a fault in the rest of its lifetime. But the point is that it is the seller's legal obligation (if he is a business) to tag and test the device. It is the law ;

http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Electricity-Professionals/Electrical-equipment-and-appliances/Sale-and-supply-of-second-hand-equipment

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Offline Crashramp

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2012, 08:28:26 PM »
Every pinball sold should have a current test tag. Not one used pinball I've bought has been tagged. My NIB from AMD is the only pin I've bought which has been tagged, though no license number present.

No new device needs to be tagged, only once its 12 months old or second hand.

If the machine was to be sited then the receipt must be kept with the device to prove when it was brought and then it also needs to be tagged every 3 months in both NSW (recently changed from monthly) and Victoria. Not sure about other states though.

Offline Crashramp

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2012, 08:37:25 PM »
Would you buy a used pinball machine from this man?

I think I did!

According to the seller, my first machine had over $900 spent on it prior to me purchasing. Only problem was that it hadn't, more like over $900 worth of problems!  #(&

 I like many others I suspect, are on a very fast and steep learning curve when it come to the first pinball purchase.

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Offline Retropin

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2012, 08:48:07 PM »
Its also only good for the moment its tagged.
Could well develope a fault 2 seconds later

Could develop a fault one second later, or it may never develop a fault in the rest of its lifetime. But the point is that it is the seller's legal obligation (if he is a business) to tag and test the device. It is the law ;

http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Electricity-Professionals/Electrical-equipment-and-appliances/Sale-and-supply-of-second-hand-equipment




6 months QLD from memory.. mind you this ONLY applies if the machine is sited. It is though the obligation of the seller to ensure that product conforms to electrical safety act.. which as correctly stated requires test and tag by qualified personnel ( restricted licence or above).
Once its in home use, it no longer requires 6 month T&T.. its ONLY if sited

Offline studley67

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2012, 08:52:16 PM »
i have bought pins from many interstate busineses.none have been taged.this is sort of getting off topic. and will scare buyers away from the industry if they think a pin is not safe.
I can now see that prices will need to go up for machines that have been safety tagged as it will cost the seller to provide this before sale.not good. ^.^
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Offline Strangeways

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Re: My Opinion on Pinball Importers.
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2012, 09:05:25 PM »
i have bought pins from many interstate busineses.none have been taged.this is sort of getting off topic. and will scare buyers away from the industry if they think a pin is not safe.
I can now see that prices will need to go up for machines that have been safety tagged as it will cost the seller to provide this before sale.not good. ^.^

Actually, it is VERY much "on topic" as it highlights the many corners that are cut by importers. Once you become a Business, it is entirely up to the owner to provide a reliable and honest product. It is THAT serious that it is LAW.

From January onwards, any games brought into my workshop that are NOT tag and tested will have to be before I work on them. Especially after the problematic games I've seen recently. I think that a Tag and Test is around $35 per machine, and is it mandatory if the power cable has to be replaced. Changing a power cord or fitting requires a license for a business, and then the item has to be tag and tested. I don't care how much it costs me, I'm covering my ass, and protecting my premises.

It is not a matter of new owners "thinking" that a pin is not safe, it is "knowing" it IS safe. Why don't charities accept second hand goods ? Because they have to be electrically safe.

Tag and Test is cheap. Cheaper than the margin importers charge for replacing a power cable (which I'm told one charges $250 !).
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