The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Technical Matters => Pinball Repairs / Problems & Assistance => Topic started by: kraig on October 10, 2009, 05:29:20 PM
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Hey all, long-time lurker here posting for the first time.
I've just begun to restore my first pinball machine - a Williams Gulfstream. All my previous experience has been with robm's DMDs and SS machines, so it's all a bit new to me.
The machine was bought unworking, and the current symptoms are:
- At power-up, the score reels all reset to zero (although the credit reel doesn't - should it???), the lights come on - looks like it's ready to play
- If the coin switch on the door (NC) is closed, the score motor runs without stopping
- If the coin switch on the door is open, the score motor doesn't run BUT if I depress the switch where the ball sits when it drains, the score motor does run
- Nothing happens when I press the start button
We're just beginning to step through the procedures on pinrepair.com. So far I've:
- checked all fuses
- pulled apart the stepper units, cleaned them up and confirmed that they're stepping freely
- pulled apart the score reel units, cleaned them up and confirmed that they're stepping freely
We don't have any schematics, so it feels like we're a bit in the dark.
So...any ideas?
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G'Day Kraig
You will need a schematic otherwise you could be chasing your tail for some time. I would be checking the door coin switch, as from memory - this should be normally open - been a while since I worked on a williams EM. Do you have two coin switches on the door ?
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Hey all, long-time lurker here posting for the first time.
I've just begun to restore my first pinball machine - a Williams Gulfstream. All my previous experience has been with robm's DMDs and SS machines, so it's all a bit new to me.
The machine was bought unworking, and the current symptoms are:
- At power-up, the score reels all reset to zero (although the credit reel doesn't - should it???), the lights come on - looks like it's ready to play
- If the coin switch on the door (NC) is closed, the score motor runs without stopping
- If the coin switch on the door is open, the score motor doesn't run BUT if I depress the switch where the ball sits when it drains, the score motor does run
- Nothing happens when I press the start button
We're just beginning to step through the procedures on pinrepair.com. So far I've:
- checked all fuses
- pulled apart the stepper units, cleaned them up and confirmed that they're stepping freely
- pulled apart the score reel units, cleaned them up and confirmed that they're stepping freely
We don't have any schematics, so it feels like we're a bit in the dark.
So...any ideas?
Ok - from the top....
Scores setting to zero - yup thats good
if credit wheel is at zero then there are NO credits and game wont play as in essence you have not stuck any money in ya tight bugger
Switch on coin door is IMPULSE - in other words, keep it closed and the motor WILL run and run and run.
To make the switch closure you are emulating what a coin would do when dropped through.. in other words gently tap it closed - it will open again and leave it - motor should run,then stop, ball gets kicked out from trough and you start the game
let me know how you go..
If no luck then make sure that game is reading the switch closure UNDER the ball as it sits in the trough... if this is NOT CLOSED the solenoid will not fire and ball wont come out to play.
Let me know how you go... this SHOULD be a real easy fix
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This machine is out in my shed, so while Kraig is away, i've had a look.
Coin door - there is only one switch - the other has had one blade snipped off and all the wires disconnected and taped up - dunno if this will affect anything?
If the remaining coin door switch is open - the machine will not turn on!!!!
If it is closed, the machine powers up and does what Kraig described (continual score motor turning and resetting the big bank of switches under the playfield) . Then if i open the switch, and as you said Strangeways, by tapping it, the score motor turns, the big bank of switches under the playfield resets once and then it seems ready to play....
Pressing the start button does nothing (credit wheel has plenty on it - and has been cleaned), whether there is a ball in the trough or not.
BUT, when the trough switch is closed, the score motor turns (but the bank of switches under the playfield do not try to reset), when the switch is opened, the score motor stops turning..hmmmmm.... no idea - but am enjoying the challenge of a whole new world of EM's!!
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OK - I think the problem is located either in the door (coin switches) or in the coin stepper unit. I've seen similar on my Big Deal years ago, but that is a later pin 1977, and works differently.
I believe the coin switch has a set of contacts that is closed when the coin switch wire is in it's "rest" position. When a coin passes through, it opens this set of switches, and closes the middle blade, with another blade - this starts the game - regardless of the number of credits on the credit unit. If this second set of contacts REMAINS closed, a game will never start - the coin switch wire MUST return back to its resting position. IF, for some reason - the switch is not adjusted properly, then a game does not start correctly..
So the three blade switch should have one set closed at rest
When a coin passed through, the first set of blades opens and it closes a second set. The score motor should run and when the coin switch returns back, the ball should be served.
I think that the coin switch blades are not adjusted. The "disabled" set on the other coin chute worries me ! I should think that the "at rest" switches are permanently closed as described.
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I have the same game - will take a pic of how switches should be and post again
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The working coin switch seems to only have ever had 2 blades - see 1st pic - although the front insulating blocks seem a bit blackened???
The non working one (2nd pic) only has one blade left BUT in the 3rd pic there are 4 wires spare. One of these (yellow-red) i am pretty sure connects to non connected terminal of the the relay on the side of the coin shute (this may be the whole problem - but would like to confirm this is where it goes).
Then there are two wires that have been taped up (3rd pic again). It is logical that these two would have been the ones snipped off the coin switch - if this is the case, then the non working side would have had 3 blades, compared to the two blade switch on the good side. I'm unsure if this non working side is the source of the problem yet, as why would someone disconnect one side, block that coin slot off on the front of the machine and then find it doesn't work, then throw it out, ....(by the way - the machine was picked up from the rubbish dump recycling shop) - but, humans are strange creatures!
There is a 4th wire in the 3rd pic (white,blue - blurred in the RHS of pic) that i can't work out where it would logically goes - it has been bent up and is not taped up....
The 5 spare wires in the 4th pic also have me a bit stumped as i'm unsure if they go to the working side (where they are hanging in front of) or the non-working side.
Is there meant to be a relay on each shute or just one for both shutes? (like in 3rd pic)?
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OK - There ARE three blades per switch, but only two wires. The blades with the wires are "normally open". This is one problem you need to do as the game is totally confused as the coin switch is NO and is a momentary switch. Gap that switch.
The second coin switch is disabled and it looks like the wire has simply been jumpered to the working side for continuity.
I do recall this exact issue with a Space Mission whereby the coin switch arm would get caught on the bottom of its travel, thus closing the switch and a game would never start as a result.
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Have gapped that switch, so the 3 blades are independent of each other.
When like that, the machine will not turn on (ie: no lights or anything) but when i briefly touch either of the 2 shorter blades to the longest one the machine turns on.
Again, when the ball trough switch is closed, the score motor runs continually, but can't start a game.
Will wait till Kraig gets here at lunch time and try reconnecting the missing wire to the relay on the coin chute and see if that does anything.
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Have gapped that switch, so the 3 blades are independent of each other.
When like that, the machine will not turn on (ie: no lights or anything) but when i briefly touch either of the 2 shorter blades to the longest one the machine turns on.
Again, when the ball trough switch is closed, the score motor runs continually, but can't start a game.
Will wait till Kraig gets here at lunch time and try reconnecting the missing wire to the relay on the coin chute and see if that does anything.
OK - So make sure you have credits up on the credit unit. Switch on - you should at least see the "tilt" light on ? Press the Start switch and it should start your game.
The motor running continuously means that there is a part of the "start sequence" that is not completed. Are there any relays or coils "buzzing" louder than others ?
The coil on the front door is the "coin lock out" - won't make a difference. These are often disabled as they make a "buzzing" sound when on that distracts players.
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OK - new set of symptoms.
On power up, nothing happens - no lights come on, no response to switches.
If we momentarily close the coin switch (increments the credits but wrong way - reduces credits), then machine sort of starts up - some lights come on, but the tilt light does not.
Then, if we manually tilt, the tilt light comes on.... THEN we close trough switch (to simulate ball drain) then, and only then, will the game react to the start button (reduces credits, but still doesn't seem to energise any of the playfield switches). Note: when we close the trough switch, the trough solenoid doesn't fire.
So it looks like a problem with the startup sequence....I think? $#$
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OK - I don't have a schematic handy for this game or any williams EM at this stage. I would be starting here ;
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#start
Look for the williams start up sequence. Just confirm that your machine is behaving similarly.
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The picture below shows how we understand the credit unit to work.
Green arrow: credit increment solenoid, which actuates...
Purple Arrow: credit unit EOS
Red Arrow: credit decrement solenoid,
Blue Arrow: credit zero position switch
From pinrepair, first two steps in the sequence:
"Williams Start-Up Sequence.
1.When the start button is pressed, the credit unit is decremented. This is done through the credit unit zero position switch and the 2nd coin relay (and the ball count zero position switch).
2.The end of stroke (EOS) switch on the credit unit decrement coil will energized the coin relay."
When we add a credit on the front door, the credit unit is decremented. But...when a game is started, the credit unit is incremented.
So the credit unit appears to work opposite to what we'd expect.
1. Could this be as simple as having a connector in back-to-front...or something more sinister?
2. This doesn't allow the start-up sequence to occur, as the credit unit is incremented rather than decremented and therefore the EOS on the credit unit does not close (step 2 of sequence above).
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do you actually see the Credit EOS switch close ? Looks like it is gapped too far ?
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Yes the EOS does close, but only when a credit is incremented, when the pinrepair sequence says this should happen when a credit is decremented!
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%)% hope you get it sorted mate
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Thanks for the welcome and for all the help so far. The more we delve into it, the more I admire the way these EMs are designed - it's very cool nutting out how the stepper units work and actually seeing switching operate etc.
A couple of things to help us along if possible:
1. Does any one have schematics or other diagrams for a Williams EM of this vintage? There are a few labels missing from relays and other units that are making it a bit difficult to check off the pinrepair startup sequence step by step.
2. Can anyone confirm if our understanding of the credit unit function (see photo with the coloured arrows) is correct...and if it's meant to work that way?
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Thanks for the welcome and for all the help so far. The more we delve into it, the more I admire the way these EMs are designed - it's very cool nutting out how the stepper units work and actually seeing switching operate etc.
A couple of things to help us along if possible:
1. Does any one have schematics or other diagrams for a Williams EM of this vintage? There are a few labels missing from relays and other units that are making it a bit difficult to check off the pinrepair startup sequence step by step.
2. Can anyone confirm if our understanding of the credit unit function (see photo with the coloured arrows) is correct...and if it's meant to work that way?
I have a feeling Gavin (Retropin) has a Gulf Stream. I don't have a Williams EM within reach to provide you with the info - so maybe he will "chime" in and provide a photo. sounds like an easy fix.
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*****CHING!!*******
OK - chimed in and yes - i have schematics and also manual ( i think).
I may be waaaay off track here though, but reading your posts - is it possible that someone has tried to turn the game to free play? ( and then got it horribly wrong)
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Just went out to the shed for another look, i don't think it has tried to be set to freeplay. From what i understand, the credit zero position switch (blue arrow in picture on previous page) needs to be set to permanently closed to set to freeplay. The top two blades of this switch have all original wiring on them - in fact all of the wiring in the back box looks at least 35 years old!!. Unless there is another way to set it to free play?
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Does the fact no coils are firing have anything to do with anything??
At this point in time I can push the start button to start a game, but the kick out solenoid won't fire. If the trough switch stays closed (since the coil doesn't fire it out) the score motor keeps running.
But, if i open the trough switch and hit the tilt, then close the trough switch to simulate a ball drain, the ball light drops one number as if in a real game. But before hitting the tilt switch, no playfield switches or coils respond to being closed...
Is this the/a problem or simply a symptom of a larger problem (being the score motor continually running if trough switch is closed, likely to do with an incorrect start up sequence as described previously)?
Has anyone designed an EM to DMD plug so we can run diagnostics from switches on the coin door!! :lol
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We've been working through the Williams startup sequence from pinrepair - got to looking at the bonus unit and now more puzzled... see photo.
The bonus unit doesn't move at all during the startup sequence (which it is meant to do) .
1. It looks like there should be two solenoids on the unit, but as shown in the photo there's only one and no sign there ever has been two - is this right?
2. Assume the bonus unit senses zero position via the "snowshoe" type wiper unit (so no blade-type zero position switch)?
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Heres what the relay stacks on the score motor do.. this might well help you... ill post some pics later of inside the machine so you know what relay is which inside.. this should give you the info you need to get her going
(http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr243/retropin/GulfStreamSch060.jpg)
(http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr243/retropin/GulfStreamSch061.jpg)..
Thinking on one of your last posts - no solenoids firing - could be because start up is not completing, or,if no power at coils in game mode then check "HOLD"relay - one of the switches here should have the leaf switch that supplies power. If power there, but no firing then youve lost ground.. flollow this through for broken contact/ wire... this is all of course assuming that fuses are good etc
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Thanks Retropin.
I'll follow up on those diagrams and your suggestions on the weekend - unfortunately the machine lives about 25km from where I do.
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Ok - im fixing my WMS 64 PALOOKA which has been kinda screwing with my head. I had a few faults with this including a very strange mod on the score motor which is bloody odd!!
The game is a 5 ball add a Ball game same as Gulf Stream - i got the start up to a point where once coin door button was pushed, game would TRY to start but not credit balls and not put ball into play. The bonus unit in the back would DECREMENT 5 steps instead of INCREMENT... first reaction is to assume that wires had been installed incorrectly during someones fix up and swapping them over would reverse the symptoms - seems reasonable.
Not so - solder is original
Fault was in the GAME RELAY - there is a 2 way leaf switch, when it pulls one way, it DECREMENTS, it then reverses and INCREMENTS - this is the normal start up sequence.. it HAS to go one way and then the other.
I looked at the Gulf Stream schematics to see if the circuit was the same and it is... the INCREMENT and DECREMENT circuits are identical although judging by your pictures, it is installed differently ( increment is under the PF and i believe is 3 in line relay - something like that anyway)
BUT...... The relay to check is the 2nd to last at the back of the cabinet - its on a metal plate and is GAME RELAY - 2 way leaf switch is on far right.
Adjust this so there is only a tiny gap when it is open... it needs good tension to operate properly
LOOKS LIKE THIS
(http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr243/retropin/GulfStreamrelay.jpg)
Let me know how you go and ill go have a look in the back box for you
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We've been working through the Williams startup sequence from pinrepair - got to looking at the bonus unit and now more puzzled... see photo.
The bonus unit doesn't move at all during the startup sequence (which it is meant to do) .
1. It looks like there should be two solenoids on the unit, but as shown in the photo there's only one and no sign there ever has been two - is this right?
2. Assume the bonus unit senses zero position via the "snowshoe" type wiper unit (so no blade-type zero position switch)?
That is a picture of the MATCH unit - this awards a match at end of game and only requires 1 solenoid.
BALL COUNT UNIT which is the one we need to increment is on the left of this and should have 2 solenoids
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Thanks for that, Retro.
Your symptoms sound familiar, and we had wondered if the problem in the startup sequence had something to do with the game relay. Will check it out on the weekend.
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My Game Relay is exactly as shown in your photo, Retro, and it appears to be fine (tightened switch gaps anyway).
I'm wondering if I have wrongly identified some of the components in the machine, which would be confusing my understanding of the startup procedure. Hoping the folks here can confirm or correct me and fill in the gaps. (see photos)
Backbox
1. Ball count unit
2. Match unit
3. Replay unit (according to sticker) This also termed the credit unit, right?
4. ??
5. 100pt relay
6. 1000pt relay
7. ??
8. Score reset relay
Playfield left
1. ??
Playfield right
1. On bumper relay
2. ?? 500 pt relay unit
3. ?? 500 pt relay unit
Cabinet
The labels are still on everything here, so I know what they are.
Q. Where is the "bonus unit" and the "bonus relay"?
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You have all cabinet labels yes??
Under the PF - bottom relays - these are the 2 side by side. On left is INLINE RESET RELAY, on right is 500 POINT RELAY,
The other relays are for bumpers etc - not the logic of the game
In back box - none of mine are labelled also and game is in pieces so i cant start her up and tell you.
This will be going in my shop soon though and will work it out then