PC Based Pinball Discussion

[Homepin]

Go make a system out of bamboo & coconut shells and let us know how you get on  ;-)

Well, The Professor can make a radio out of coconuts so I'll bet he could make a pinball out of them as well - maybe even a Coconut Island re-make 

[Homepin]

does anyone have an answer as to why all these new pinball companies havent stuck with the same system Stern is using...is it because the Stern system cant run large LCD screens, or will that be a easy add on to the Stern system to have a LCD working with it.

Sterns system seems to work really well, doesnt take up much space at all, and there is bugger all to it, so why havent the others gone this route instead of PC based ideas/systems.

Seems to be efficient n cheap to build/use, so why not copy Sterns way ? I wouldnt mind hearing why people think these new companies havent done what Stern has done ?? what is the advantage oof staying Sterns way, what is the advantage of going the PC way, cause so far, we are hearing no benefit by going PC based, except maybe its easier to put together from shelf parts ??

anyone have an idea why they are not sticking with a tried n tru method ?? 

Very simple - a PC (Personal Computer) already has all the LCD screen driver hardware built in - NOTHING to do - just plug a screen into the port that is already on the motherboard and anyone can find a programmer to write stuff for PC's

They are taking shortcuts - that is the ONLY reason. To drive an LCD screen using embedded systems is MUCH harder times 10

In the short term it will be great because we will have a myriad of new players making pinballs and probably a lot of great ideas will flow from that but I fear, in the longer term (after five years) we will have an awful lot of these new machines being junked because nobody will be able to keep them going. That includes JJP, Heighway and ANYONE who is going down the Personal Computer route.

My mate with the jukeboxes wishes he had never become involved with them - they are taking a massive amount of time, work effort and money and, in the end, break down again after a couple of months.

PCs simply ARE NOT reliable enough and they become obsolete far too quickly for this type of product IMO.

[Caveoftreasures]

OK. Great answer.
Hope they all make loads of spares like car companies do then.........

[oldskool1969]

PCs simply ARE NOT reliable enough and they become obsolete far too quickly for this type of product IMO.
[/quote]

glad you said IMO - in your opinion.
IMO -  I disagree with your statement  a lot. One simple reasoning is, it is dedicated to do one task for a dedicated outcome, the pinball game. It will not be designed to do anything other than what it is assigned to do , I think  . where as a PC is designed to try and keep up with the relevant information and new software of the day for what people ask, which generally is too much for it to do.
Also once all updates have been done and dusted etc. etc. ( final code ) why would you worry if it is outdated? It can only be used for this task and this task alone, also like many hobbyist, like us in pinball  there will ALWAYS be someone to keep the fire burning for the particular format. Christ! some people are still writing software for the Commodore VIC20! remember that one.
All the stuff we fix like system 1, EM's, etc. etc. and others are ALL outdated. We still pursue and achieve problematic solutions, yourself included.
I say embrace technology and see where it takes us.
Cheers

[Boots]

PCs simply ARE NOT reliable enough and they become obsolete far too quickly for this type of product IMO.


glad you said IMO - in your opinion.
IMO -  I disagree with your statement  a lot. One simple reasoning is, it is dedicated to do one task for a dedicated outcome, the pinball game. It will not be designed to do anything other than what it is assigned to do , I think  . where as a PC is designed to try and keep up with the relevant information and new software of the day for what people ask, which generally is too much for it to do.
Also once all updates have been done and dusted etc. etc. ( final code ) why would you worry if it is outdated? It can only be used for this task and this task alone, also like many hobbyist, like us in pinball   there will ALWAYS be someone to keep the fire burning for the particular format. Christ! some people are still writing software for the Commodore VIC20! remember that one.
All the stuff we fix like system 1, EM's, etc. etc. and others are ALL outdated. We still pursue and achieve problematic solutions, yourself included.
I say embrace technology and see where it takes us.
Cheers

Good argument.
We have a pc at work that has been running non-stop for the last 15 years and it has NEVER faulted (it's a 486 DX2-66).
Pc's are not all unreliable, they are just built to a tolerance that allows for more failures per 100 units.
That's why industrial controllers are more expensive they have similar components but the manufacturing process maintains a smaller fail rate.
So you can get a bullet proof pc that will last 1000 years, only thing is there is less per 100, 1000 or 10,000 units.

It still doesn't stop an industrial or dedicated controller from being unreliable due to poor design as per SYS1 Gottliebs.

[MartyJ]

PCs simply ARE NOT reliable enough and they become obsolete far too quickly for this type of product IMO.


glad you said IMO - in your opinion.
IMO -  I disagree with your statement  a lot. One simple reasoning is, it is dedicated to do one task for a dedicated outcome, the pinball game. It will not be designed to do anything other than what it is assigned to do , I think  . where as a PC is designed to try and keep up with the relevant information and new software of the day for what people ask, which generally is too much for it to do.
Also once all updates have been done and dusted etc. etc. ( final code ) why would you worry if it is outdated? It can only be used for this task and this task alone, also like many hobbyist, like us in pinball  there will ALWAYS be someone to keep the fire burning for the particular format. Christ! some people are still writing software for the Commodore VIC20! remember that one.
All the stuff we fix like system 1, EM's, etc. etc. and others are ALL outdated. We still pursue and achieve problematic solutions, yourself included.
I say embrace technology and see where it takes us.
Cheers

Good argument.
We have a pc at work that has been running non-stop for the last 15 years and it has NEVER faulted (it's a 486 DX2-66).
Pc's are not all unreliable, they are just built to a tolerance that allows for more failures per 100 units.
That's why industrial controllers are more expensive they have similar components but the manufacturing process maintains a smaller fail rate.
So you can get a bullet proof pc that will last 1000 years, only thing is there is less per 100, 1000 or 10,000 units.

It still doesn't stop an industrial or dedicated controller from being unreliable due to poor design as per SYS1 Gottliebs.

Modern computers are produced with planned obsolescence.  Like almost everything modern (cars, tv's, jet skis, Sterns)..Unfortunately I think the biggest problem is that designing a pinball machine around a specific type of technology, which is designed to have a life span then fail, is going to cause problems.  Will computers be around in 10 years.  Yes.
Will they be like what you are sitting in front of now?  No.

Whilst adjusting and tipping my tin foil hat - a very interesting doco for your viewing pleasure:

[/youtube]

 

[Caveoftreasures]

Good video Marty.
Time takes care of all problems,literally.

Lets see if a JJP machine resets regularly or often if powered up 24 hrs a day, week in and week out like a Stern. Surely, it should run for a very long time without resets, but we are talking a PC here, so will it run 7 days a week, 24 hrs a day without resets/reboots.  

We will know when someone sees one sighted in Australia in 2013 or 2014. Because both good and bad news travels very quickly, anything and everything imperfect on the new WOZ (or any new pinball title) travels at the speed of light.
At the moment, the WOZ machine is fully dressed and ready for shipping (well in the next 3 or 4 months hopefully) but it wont be long til every man n his dog from every other pinball company strips one down to its undies and we learn all the hidden stuff.

If a JJP model can run 7 days a week, 24 hrs a day, for 12 months non stop, and not have a hassle I will be happy. I would then want to inspect all the boards for any fatigue from heat. This will be the way to truly test this newer PC direction some pinball companies are travelling in.....

[Homepin]

I'm with Cavey on this one................

[pinball god]

Been out of the loop for many years now, but industrial pc's where fairly sturdy and didn't pose any more problems compared to say Fanuc controls etc. Also keeping a pc on 24/7 I thought was better than switching it continually on and off. I thought the initial power up was where the stress factor came into play. I haven't had a server go in my time I think due to it being constantly on 

[Freiherr]

Planned obsolescence is something the manufacturer creates because the consumer wants it. The driving factor is price and the public usually accepts a cheaper alternative.
Let me give you an example. Our eight old dining table chairs were in need of new seat padding after almost 20 years of good use. The timber is excellent and they were manufactured at Melchair Pty Ltd Melbourne in 1995. My wife phoned around for some quotes and the price for refurbishing ranged from $1000 to $3000 for eight chairs! Now, we could have bought a brand new table and 8 chairs made in China for less than the lowest quote.
I said no way Jose to all of this and spent this weekend refurbishing the chairs myself. Bought the best padding at Clark rubber and the chairs are ready for the next 20 years. Total outlay was $100 and 2 sore hands and wrists.
Fortunately,  you can do this sort of repair on good old products if they are taken care of. Unfortunately today, too many products are built to a price and are only good while they last. In many cases, the consumer will change the product before it dies. This is what 90% of the people want and the drivers are price and style.

[dendoc]

My attitude was always you get what you pay for.

There should be a range of choice for those that want/can only afford a bargain, but there should also be products available for those with more expendable income that want to buy quality - super A mart vs Domayne for example. Both provide a new lounge chair, one will last 5 years, the other 20 years.

I would hope WOZ is providing quality at $9.5k when you can pick up a new Stern for $6k.

If redundancy due to PC board is expected in 5 years - don't market it so high! The product is only as good as its weakest component - no other amount of bling will help if the thing doesn't boot every time you try and start it up!

[Homepin]

If redundancy due to PC board is expected in 5 years - don't market it so high!

I still think there is some misunderstandings about what I am trying to say...

PC board = "Printed Circuit Board" - that's fine and ALL machines are doing well with good quality here

PC = "Personal Computer" - the thing on your home/office desk - this is what Heighway and JJP are basing their machine on for the controlling system and THIS is not on IMO.

It is the Personal Computer part that will cause problems and I'm afraid it makes NO DIFFERENCE what you pay for a motherboard - they are ALL only made to last a few years -

THIS is what the problem is - Stern is sticking with embedded controllers NOT PC's and they have proven to be reliable over 30 years.

Turn your computer on and wait 5 mins for it to boot - same with your JJP and Heighway - it just isn't going to cut it

[Freiherr]

"Turn your computer on and wait 5 mins for it to boot - same with your JJP and Heighway - it just isn't going to cut it"

Tablets and SSDs are almost instantaneous. The long boot ups will be a thing of the past. Hard drives are the weakest link in PC reliability and hassles. SSDs are coming down in price, are very reliable and their read times are much faster.

[oldskool1969]

If Stern or whomever is going to go the future way of LCD or whatever new display they choose, won't that have a PC driving it also?. As Freiherr mentioned it is generally the HD that causes issues. BTW I have a MAC which is AWESOME, excellent OS 
Some really mixed views on this thread. I would like to see if a manufacturer jumps in and expresses their operating system features and benefits?
The point of The light build conspiracy is probably a little archaic by now. All it really points out to me is that some manufacturers are greedy and cut costs buy using short cuts and inferior materials to manufacture.
Let's face it there is a market for Mercedes and for Kia ( as a obvious example ) I know which one I prefer if I could afford it.
Point is that, there are premium products and also products built down to budget specification which generally use old technology and spare parts.

[Homepin]

It's amazing how all of you guys who think it's fine and dandy to use personal computers to run commercial equipment like pinballs never put their hands up to buy my mates jukebox run???

If you owned that I can guarantee you would have a very different opinion of things.

Apple OS - PPfftt - useless except for web browsing and graphic design and practically NOTHING else!

SSD - great but expensive and (as yet) fairly unreliable

Anyway - you all rush out and buy these things - I hope I'm proved wrong......