And you thought WOZ was expensive!

[joele]

In regards to the shadow he has listed it numerous times, that one must have been a mistake.. Was listed from $2,700 down to $2,350..

I went to look at it and while there fixed the error for him and showed him how to set it on free play so he didn't have to keep opening the coin door to 'drop coins in'..

The machine is OK'ish, orginally came from bumper action so he is upset he is already loosing money, that's what you get buying off bumper I guess..

The listing was about to end and he had listed multiple times at $2,350 with no bids, I said "if it ends with no bids again, maybe don't relist it and offer me a cash price and I will take it".. I wanted at least the money he was going to lose to ebay removed so around $2,000 or so, but he wouldn't discount at all even for cash sale offline.. I walked away, it needed too much work from my point of view to justify the $2,350, even at 2k I was hesitant but enjoy fixing them up...

I had the same problem with a guy listing a Star Trek Next Gen (lot higher price obviously) and lots of mechanical errors.. Refused to budge on price and months later he gave up trying to sell it I think... LOL

[Retropin]

Its a difficult thing to do, sell a machine below what you paid for it. Ive just done it myself with the 51 HARVEY.
I paid far too much for it after putting my faith into someone who sold it to me and in hindsight.. yep.. he saw me coming.
Shit happens.. rack it up and walk on.
What a seller must remember though is that the value of a machine is not always in the figure it sells for.. when I bought HARVEY, money was easy to come by.. those day are gone and we are all a little more frugal with our cash.
If I weigh up how much it hurt my pocket to buy HARVEY in the first place and how much it would hurt now to buy something at half the price.. the pain is the same.
In other words, its all relative.. worth $3K when the world was richer... worth $1200 now we are all skint.
Swings and roundabouts...

[pinnies4me]

The last ten years seem to have really embedded the idea that we should get our money back when selling a game. I suppose with the rising price and decreasing quality of the Stern games, the added pressure on the prices for classic DMDs has contributed as well in the last couple of years. But really should we be expecting this? How many other two,three or five thousand dollar items can you buy and not expect to loose?

I suppose the collectibility aspect and lack  of replacements, increasing demand creates the opportunity to buy, play, and sell for similar money.

This might change for some classic pricing with PPS and Medieval Frankegame  - and quite topical given the AFM discussion here and the prices being sought given this will most likely be the next or one after that game. I suspect $15K AFMs will disappear then too.

[Shaneus]

It's like the classic used car market, though. We shouldn't necessarily expect to make our money back, but it's not unrealistic to think we will. If I sell a classic Mustang (apt scenario, I think you'll agree ;) ) I paid $35,000 for 10 years ago, assuming it's in exactly the same condition, I don't think it's poor form to think I'll sell it for roughly the same price.

New Kias and Hyundais wouldn't dictate the price I can sell my hypothetical Mustang for.

One thing's for sure though, it'll be interesting to see the effect PP's MM will have on existing games. But IMO there are some titles (like that and AfM, amongst a few others) that have been over-inflated for donkey's years. They're good games for sure, but have always been vastly overpriced.

[GORGAR 1]

It's like the classic used car market, though. We shouldn't necessarily expect to make our money back, but it's not unrealistic to think we will. If I sell a classic Mustang (apt scenario, I think you'll agree ;) ) I paid $35,000 for 10 years ago, assuming it's in exactly the same condition, I don't think it's poor form to think I'll sell it for roughly the same price.

New Kias and Hyundais wouldn't dictate the price I can sell my hypothetical Mustang for.

One thing's for sure though, it'll be interesting to see the effect PP's MM will have on existing games. But IMO there are some titles (like that and AfM, amongst a few others) that have been over-inflated for donkey's years. They're good games for sure, but have always been vastly overpriced.

Well said that made alot of sense and I couldn't agree more, pinballs fun but it's not a good investment :-)

Peter

[Shaneus]

Well said that made alot of sense and I couldn't agree more, pinballs fun but it's not a good investment :-)

Peter

I invest in fun, not machines ;)

(Could be a handy slogan for those who bitch about losing precious dollars on a game they don't have any fun with!)

[joele]

assuming it's in exactly the same condition, I don't think it's poor form to think I'll sell it for roughly the same price.

See that is part of the problem

1) When we (collectors, mostly) buy machines and sell them again often they are looked after well and in better shape, for many of us, than when we bought them and we should hope to get our money back. The problem for non collectors who never bother to learn how to work on the machines, and that is fine if they just want to play them, but they often like this one, end up very messy and obviously not 'loved' in the way you would that classic mustang.. At that point they should accept they are going to lose money as I need to sink time and money into it just to get it back to what it was when they bought it..

2) Buying off dealers you pay a premium price, especially places like bumper, I don't think it is reasonable to expect that price back when selling privately, both these examples I gave (this and the star trek) were bumper pins, so they paid top dollar, and neither where well looked after IMO

[Cow Corner]

Well it is a buyers market apparently............. It would be interesting to see how much it would sell for with a $1 start auction.
Cheap bridges, get ya bridges here!!

[joele]

Well it is a buyers market apparently............. It would be interesting to see how much it would sell for with a $1 start auction.
Cheap bridges, get ya bridges here!!

For pins I don't buy without looking at them first ;-) but for camera lenses which are well documented and photographed I find I do better starting at $1 than listing at a higher price.. Sometimes getting no bites at the higher listing price then relist at $1 and get well past the previous listing price.. The auction effect I guess?

[pinsanity]

This might change for some classic pricing with PPS and Medieval Frankegame  - and quite topical given the AFM discussion here and the prices being sought given this will most likely be the next or one after that game. I suspect $15K AFMs will disappear then too.

There is definitely some instability in the US market at the moment due to the remake, of that I will agree. A lot of buyers are essentially taking a "wait and see" approach and prices of the high end stuff have taken a hit (but at 17-18k for a high end restoration it is a fairly limited buyer pool even in the US).

I still see good condition cleaned up and shopped MM's (not major restores) sell for 8500-9000US quite easily in the US market (when a brand new remake is priced at 8000 over there.)

Australia's biggest handicap at the moment regarding US pricing is our rapidly declining dollar. The distributor in Australia who made the pronouncement that MM remakes will be $10k landed here has now made none too subtle hints that that figure is no longer set in stone and is subject to the fluctuations of our currency market. Since just about every market indicator points to our dollar declining even further against the greenback in the immediate future and since new pinball manufacturers typically go well over the scheduled completion date (2nd quarter 2014), it will be interesting to see exactly where the final AU rrp ends up for this "Frankenpin."

The MM remake also differs from the originals in a number of ways from the patently obvious to the subtly inferior.

1. Bally branded MM on the cabinet, not Williams.
2. NO DCS sound.
3. Main driver board located on the underside of the playfield - essentially molded around the troll bumper assemblies. Time will tell as to the efficacy of this decision and the possible vibration damage to the board.
4. No possibility of a ColorDMD upgrade.

Lastly, any possible AFM remake will once again need to have the proposed MM remake board layouts redesigned and relocated again as the current remake boards have the power driver board equivalent located dead centre on the underside of the playfield. Anyone who has seen the underside of an AFM playfield will know that entire space is taken up by the controlled inserts circuit board. So I guess we will be looking at Son of Frankenpin.  

[Cow Corner]

25k by xmas!
grab one quick before the next hype driven price inflation!
 

[Strangeways]

The last ten years seem to have really embedded the idea that we should get our money back when selling a game. I suppose with the rising price and decreasing quality of the Stern games, the added pressure on the prices for classic DMDs has contributed as well in the last couple of years. But really should we be expecting this? How many other two,three or five thousand dollar items can you buy and not expect to loose?

I suppose the collectibility aspect and lack  of replacements, increasing demand creates the opportunity to buy, play, and sell for similar money.

This might change for some classic pricing with PPS and Medieval Frankegame  - and quite topical given the AFM discussion here and the prices being sought given this will most likely be the next or one after that game. I suspect $15K AFMs will disappear then too.

My thoughts exactly.

Most games that sold 5 years ago would not be sold into today's market at the same price. There would be noticeable games like MM, MB, TAFG and CC that would not have a problem selling for the same if not more. The buyer's from 5 years ago were limited in "where" they could source their games from. The norm was to pay way too much from dealers. One of the reasons they were sold high is exactly so buyers didn't smarten up and "flip" the game after a couple of months.

Today, the landscape has changed quite a bit. There are more and more enthusiasts that have impacted the pricing dealers have been setting due to greed. Dealers set premium prices, with minimal work, whereas enthusiasts take a lot more time and because the game is "theirs" they don't take shortcuts. When these better machines hit eBay, they are often cheaper and in much better condition. Then you have the High End market, which again, some enthusiasts excel at. The standard is high, so why shouldn't the price be set high ? Buyers have been allowing dealers to set prices for years, and to make it worse, they WERE happy with the standard of the games ( Flintstones - $4500 and Lost In Space for $8000 ! ).  Again, minimal work for maximum profit.

I have no problem with a High End Pinball demanding a High End Price. AFM fits this category. If the work has been done, and there are no short cuts - I have no problem with a collectible and rare game being advertised for a High price.

[Shaneus]

FWIW they'll have several of the new MM machines setup at Texas next month. With any luck there'll be one or two originals there as well so I can compare directly but it's no big deal if not, I have a fair bit of experience with that table IRL anyway (many moons ago!).

Either way, you blokes (and ladies?) will get some solid first-hand impressions here first :) I could well be one of the first Aussies to play one!