Author Topic: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..  (Read 811 times)

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Offline Ford Fairlane

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High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« on: March 30, 2014, 08:01:25 PM »
I didn't want to hijack a for sale thread so thought id start another..

I wonder if it really is an advertising tool (to advertise for ridiculously high prices on pins) OR are the dealers actually selling them to the unwary for these ridiculous prices?? id love to know the stats on this.. Discuss  :lol

Offline Retropin

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2014, 08:10:28 PM »
Bit of both.. its in every dealers best interests to try and continually push the price of pins up. Keep advertising high and eventually in buyers minds they come to accept the idea that they have to spend big... $3000 Farfalla.... $15000 KISS etc. There is the other side of this too in that a customer may well approach away from Ebay and enquire in which the reply is that " its on Ebay for $3000 but you can have it now cash for $2400" ..Still good coin for a $1000 -$1400 pin.
Advertisements like this aren't aimed at the collectors like us.. they are aimed at the first time buyers that just want a pin in the house.
A seller always wants as a good a coin as they can get... a buyer always wants to spend as little coin as possible. In the middle there is a deal to be made but if you can make the difference between the two prices wide then you have much more bargaining power.
If I was the $15000 KISS seller id have another KISS on Ebay in my wifes account at say $8000.. suddenly the $8000 pin looks half price and not that bad a buy... smoke and mirrors!

Offline Caveoftreasures

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2014, 08:35:21 PM »
Gavs correct, u have to find middle ground.

I will say, without the dealers and importers, none of us would have any pinall machines.

If a game is a few hundred or even $500 too pricey, it only matters if money is tight or if u intend on flipping it in a year or two. (some people cant hold a pin fr a max of six months).

But if u are going to keep forever, and u want to build a decent collection, I personally find having a excellent relationship with ALL the commercial dealers to be very worthwhile. You get what u pay for. I know people have rattled on for years about what the meaning of shopped is versus restored etc, but I find that If I ask for a cerain pin, at a certain price with XYZ work done to it, the dealers have always been very accommodating. I have purchased half of my machines thru commercial dealers at excellent prices in excellent condition, and I have purchased nice ones direct from the container also without a thing needed doing, and some projects.

Dealers are a great resource for people who are polite and can nicely negotiate. Build some rapport and away you go.
One of the reasons Dealers also listprices of machines at say $500 to $1,000 over the mark, is sometimes they have three or four of that model. Some fully restored n minty, some stillfrom the container.
I say don't forget the dealers have staff n familys n have to eat as well. I still highly recommend people to three or four dealers an I have inspected the games upon arrival. I have never had cause to complain, cause after many machines, the dealer knows how to look after you and your referrals.
Prices are always up ndown. Just got to negotiate and be reasonable and u can always meet in the middle. Thats my 2 cents after 5 yrs approx of buying pins.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 08:39:38 PM by Caveoftreasures »
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Offline Strangeways

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2014, 09:17:27 PM »

Answering the question in the context of "dealers" and not private sellers ;

Dealers do take high risks in bringing in machines. When the local machines dried out, the Dealers filled the demand. For that, we should all be grateful.

Pinballs were VERY cheap overseas 5-10 years ago. Profits could be made with very little effort. Reconditioning standards were abysmal. Five years ago, hobbyists became involved with importing and stupidly increased supply prices which annoyed dealers that thought they had a monopoly on the industry. We even have arcade people rumored to have imported over a dozen containers - only one or two actually landed - but ALL these guys realize how much work is involved, and the fact that there is a lot of competition. All these guys have disappeared. To succeed you need understand the product and the industry. Only a small percentage do both. Then you need to have a higher standard than your competitors.

So this leads into selling methods. What used to happen is price fixing. Behind the scenes, dealers would ensure they had a "standard" price for games. An example that actually happened - A dealer sold an Twilight Zone for $3000. A COMPETING dealer called up the selling dealer and went nuts that the game was sold "too cheap". What happened was the owner went overseas and left a Tech in charge for 2 weeks. He sold the game too cheap, and the chatter started. Some dealers are obviously not involved and would price their TZ for $8,000 - but they never sold anything anyway !

Today, we have the internet. We have eBay, which is simply an advertising tool for dealers. You will see the SAME game listed for YEARS in some cases. We have forums, like this one, that educate newbies. If a newbie finds the forum before impulse buying, then they save their money. This HURTS dealers. The fact that the supplier prices have in some case TRIPLED since 2008 (read above for that reason), then sales price locally reflect that. So profits decrease. To make up for the decreased profits, something had to give - the parts used and the quality of the reconditioning work. We have very quickly gone back to "abysmal" ! Keep cost down and profits increase again.

Right now, the industry is hanging by a thread. I can easily be considered a dealer, and I would not argue with that. I think I'm more of a broker than a dealer, because I don't care what prices are "industry" prices. I sold my last two restored Addams Family games for $6200 and $5800. What I see today is JUNK compared to my standards, and asking prices is the "industry standard" of $6500. I see at least one dealer game a week that should be covered with some sort of warranty, but the standards are crap. The "new" standard is to claim that "flipper kits are installed" - but why do I see tumbler media stuck in the pawls ? They are recycled in most cases.

Education is the key. It is not a case of "don't buy from (insert dealer name here)". It is a case of asking the right questions, and looking around. Ebay ads with fixed prices, or BIN prices are advertisements. Fishing for the newbies - and that's it. What VALUE are you getting with the price ?

EBay is a selling tool to reel in the newbies that don't do their homework. Inflated prices attract the impulse buyers. One of these days I'll write a book. But in conclusion, if it was not for the dealers, our hobby would be a lot smaller. So we should all be grateful, but a little more educated these days.

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Offline Ford Fairlane

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2014, 10:25:24 PM »
I appreciate what dealers like yourself do (I mean one of my pins will come from you!  $#$ ) and im more than happy to pay a little more knowing that i'll get a pin that ill get to enjoy for a while before the standard need for repairs hit (of course old machines that pinballs are will have things go wrong with them from time to time). But on the same token I see machines that are advertised on ebay that are priced well above what "the educated" among us deem acceptable. They are probably so expensive because they bought from a dealer who gouged them in the first place..

I guess as it has been said above, these ebay prices are just a starting point for a polite negotiation to bring the prices to a more reasonable level. Sure, pay a premium to a dealer who has done some work to a machine so they keep bringing them in. But I think i'll pass on the 15k kiss and the 1k + project machines that are missing MPU's and almost complete and worn playfields

Offline Strangeways

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2014, 09:42:39 AM »
I do tell my customers before I start a "Nearly In Box" game that the chances of getting their money back on resale are slim. This allows the customer to decide if they want their "holy Grail" restored to a high standard.

Most dealers price their games high so that buyers cannot "flip" the game for an easy profit. Classic title is Twilight Zone. If a buyer picks up a $8000 TZ and thinks it is good value at the time and then adds $500 mods, they might believe that the game has a "market value" of $8500. The moment they realize they will never get that price is the moment they realize they have been ripped off. But some buyers moving on games stick to the $8000+ pricetag. The idea is that because they were ripped off, they will simply pass on the "ripoff" to another buyer.

I don't have a problem with an $8000 TZ IF the games has been restored to a high standard. Not just the "standard" changing of non working globes and rubbers, a quick clean and replace the minimum amount of parts and spent less than 30 hours on it. Then it is a $4000-$5000 pinball.

Newbies are still being conned on eBay. They impulse buy and then when the game fails they do a search for "pinball repairs" or "pinball part" and find AP. That's when the penny drops. shame they didn't find AP first !
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Offline baoyar

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2014, 03:25:40 PM »
As a newbie to the hobby myself, I always knew that buying my own pin would be expensive. When I made my first trip to a dealer a couple of weeks ago, the machines were in excellent condition. I spoke to the techs and they impressed me with how much they knew and their experience with the machines. The prices I was quoted seemed very reasonable... around $5,000 for a Johnny Mnemonic, for example. Of course I like to think I'm an educated newbie. So I compared the prices to eBay. The prices seemed similar... must be legit! I considered buying one straight off the dealer's shop floor.

But then I came here and saw the prices the same machines were going for. Not exactly half the price... but close in some cases. Easily 30-40% cheaper than the dealer's prices. I'm eager to learn a bit about pinball machines and how they work so I can repair them myself when things go wrong. But I think this is exactly where dealers will always have a market. The fact that you can take your broken machine (which came with a warranty!), get it repaired and have it back at your place without swapping out boards or taking the playfield apart is a godsend for people who don't want to deal with the insides of the machine.

So, are dealer prices unreal? Maybe. But I suspect some people getting into the hobby now aren't like most of AP. Most just want a pinball for the games room that they can install and forget about, then just take to the shop when it breaks. Most of AP (myself included) like the idea of fixing machines ourselves. Thus the idea of doubling the price of a machine just for the warranties and other guarantees isn't worth it.

Either way, I'm glad I found AP!

Offline Caveoftreasures

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2014, 04:13:18 PM »
Buy a Brand New in Box Stern from AMD/Bruce/Michael in Sydney and it gets even better value for money. 5 to 7 grand and away you go with a schmick beauty.

see Sterns games available page.

http://www.sternpinball.com/Games.aspx

A lot of guys bought their first BNIB last year from our Aust Stern dealer and have subsequently ended up buying another 2 or 4 new machines for the line up.

These machines are plug n play and need only a very occasional wipe over n service as per the operstors manual which a ten yr old kid can do. New technology, brand new 2012 - 2014 parts. It just doesn't get any better for fun and hassle free.
Behind every garage door could be a pinball collectors
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Into  Stern -JJP - Cars , Road Bikes- Jet Skis - Star Trek n Sci-Fi & Electronics    
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Offline 4_amusement_only

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2014, 04:42:39 PM »
Buy a Brand New in Box Stern from AMD/Bruce/Michael in Sydney and it gets even better value for money. 5 to 7 grand and away you go with a schmick beauty.

see Sterns games available page.

http://www.sternpinball.com/Games.aspx

A lot of guys bought their first BNIB last year from our Aust Stern dealer and have subsequently ended up buying another 2 or 4 new machines for the line up.

These machines are plug n play and need only a very occasional wipe over n service as per the operstors manual which a ten yr old kid can do. New technology, brand new 2012 - 2014 parts. It just doesn't get any better for fun and hassle free.

I'm sure Gary Stern has to be paying you a cash-for-comment wage ()

Offline Caveoftreasures

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2014, 11:10:04 PM »
yes, I get paid $1 for every positive comment.lol
I am also on the books of Toyota, whom I really like as well, and from time to time Nissan, which has just put out a great new X-Trail vehicle, just as good as the new Toyota Camry. I like stuff that is well built.
I haven't had any friends or family, or even strangers, ever tell me they did the wrong thing after buying a brand new Stern after I referred them.

Brand New in Box pinballs these days are just like brand new cars, they seldomly ever need a thing doing to them except basic servicing, and the warranty is just as good. Its when you see a brand new Stern get 500 games played on it in one day (which I have seen at a commercial venue) that u realise how well made the new Sterns are. Durable is the word I was looking for. For plug n play without any hassles, new Sterns are great for this pinball industry/hobby.
There are a lot of BNIB Stern buyers on Aussie Pinball. A lot more every 6 to 12 months.
Behind every garage door could be a pinball collectors
"Cave of Treasures" 55 in my collection

Into  Stern -JJP - Cars , Road Bikes- Jet Skis - Star Trek n Sci-Fi & Electronics    
Beware of Stalkers & Walkers when playing The Walking Dead

My 7yr old son Hunter is my best mate in the world !

Offline Retropin

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2014, 08:20:38 AM »
There goes that calculator again... 24 hrs.. 500 games means a new game started every 2.88 minutes

Offline spacejam0

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2014, 10:42:31 AM »
,
There goes that calculator again... 24 hrs.. 500 games means a new game started every 2.88 minutes
great money for the operator but I must say its surprising that the machine is in constant play 24 hrs and no ones game is lasting longer than 3 minutes
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 10:44:07 AM by spacejam0 »

Offline Strangeways

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2014, 11:58:44 AM »
Quick scan of eBay and Gumtree reveals two NIB Sterns VS PAGES of used pinball machines. Newbies to the hobby that are targeted by dealers wound not be fooled into buying their first game NIB. You either have to be rich, a fool, or rich and a fan of the NIB title to spend almost $9000 to see if you like the hobby. Like buying a car, I've never heard of an "L" plater buying a new car straight off the dealership and then "learning" to drive. Speaking to industry people all the time, not many would be targetting newbies with NIB pinballs (Stern or otherwise). The "general public" don't buy NIB games - hence minimal advertising. Hobbyists, collectors and fans of titles buy NIB games - and they have already done the hard yards of knowing value for money VS overpriced machines. So advertising is not going to sway them. Their decision is made at the official launch of the game. That's why AC/DC, Metallica and Star Trek where such good sellers - no advertising needed. But if I had a dollar for every customer that has asked me for a NIB pinball, I'd have 2 cents. If I had a dollar for every person that has asked me for a TZ, IJ, AFM, KISS, Playboy, Black Knight etc etc, I would have retired a long time ago.

My point being - there is minimal advertising for NIB pinballs, as they are priced well out of reach for newbies and the target customers are established collectors that decide based on the theme, designer etc.

Funny story - I know a newbie to pinball that had more money than brains, and he unboxed his game only to find out it was DOA. He then discovered it needed the balls on the playfield, rather than in the packing. True story.
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Offline Gorgonzola

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2014, 12:52:27 PM »
It's an interesting topic. I think it really just comes down to the cash flow of the dealer. If they can afford to wait 12months to sell a game for $5000 when its really only worth $3000 then they can choose to do that and good on them I suppose. If however they can't afford to keep that sort of money locked up in stock, they will have to reduce the price.

Logic also gets in the way of a good story so it is often overlooked by the seller. Eg, I'm sure we all have a friend who has bragged about buying a product (any product) for $X and then sold it for twice as much at some point in the future. They usually gloss over the fact that 10 years has passed, that they had to spend half the purchase price again on maintaining and storing the product, etc. They then try to impress people by saying "I doubled my money" but it would be untrue and they probably could have made a better return elsewhere.

Regarding ads on eBay for $15000 KISS machines: Even though a seller has the right to set the price as high as they want, I can't help but make a mental list of sellers that I would never purchase from based on these ads. Even if they were selling something I wanted for a reasonable price I'd feel like I'd rather give my money to someone else who isn't gouging the market.

Offline Strangeways

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Re: High priced pins.. cheap advertising or not..
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2014, 03:26:09 PM »
Regarding ads on eBay for $15000 KISS machines: Even though a seller has the right to set the price as high as they want, I can't help but make a mental list of sellers that I would never purchase from based on these ads. Even if they were selling something I wanted for a reasonable price I'd feel like I'd rather give my money to someone else who isn't gouging the market.

I hear this ALL the time. Machines that sit on eBay as free advertising AND machines that are blatantly over priced AND their condition is overstated are always a cause for concern. Five years ago, people fell for it, but far less these days. People expect quality for inflated prices.

I know people that will pay $8K for a restored TZ, but won't pay $7K for a dealer "reconditioned" game.
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