Pinball pricing

[spacejam0]

I know this topic has be flogged to death but what the hell is going on? I thought we were in tough times and things were only going to get worse in the imidiate future.
I've had the itch for a new game lately and with the bad weather this weekend been having a good look on all the usual places. I last brought an sold a few machines around January last year and now 16 months later people seem to be asking a minimum of $500 more for the same title ( which I guess I can live with) through to anywhere up to $3000 more than I sold for they have to be dreaming don't they? They do seem to be relished over and over.
I understand that prices go up and down and have no problem with that but no way I'm buying at 3 grand more than 16 months ago knowing my luck when I'm ready to sell again it will be back at the bottom of a cycle and I'll do my balls.
Also noticed that very few members seem to be selling on the forum compared to a few years back which is a shame because this is where I prefer to buy. Do you think this is because people here have a better idea of what things are really worth and when a member sees what prices people are asking for machines else where they are trying for the bigger money? I can't blame them if they are....just human nature I guess.

[Pop Bumper Pete]

It can depend on what you are looking for
A list titles from any era do seem over priced, but bargains can be found for fun B list titles

Both forums cclasifieds have been slow for the last 12 months

Most forum trading has been done privately between members

[GORGAR 1]

Used prices are crazy that's for sure but as Pete mentioned alot of sales are done private :) I just sold two games and I wasn't even thinking about it but two guys contacted me and the deal was done :)

[Strangeways]

This is one of those more expensive hobbies. Although many are thrifty with their repair work and purchasing of games, there are still many collectors that still have money to buy luxury items. Members on the forums know the prices fairly well, so they steer clear of the "window shopping" on eBay. Ebay pricing never was, and will never be the true value of a game. It is more a case of fishing for the uninformed or impulse buyer. I know collectors that sell and trade between themselves, and would sell a game on a forum well before Gumtree and eBay to avoid tyre kickers and time wasters.

The price rises - like anything - Supply VS Demand. In Melbourne, it is as it has always been. Not enough games ! Also depends on the titles. CV has blown through the roof and is now an A list title is the eyes of suppliers. does not matter who it is sold to, they command a very high price overseas. So no one really imports them unless they have a customer desperate for one. CV was a $6000 ish game 5 years ago. It now commands $8000+

Importing pinballs from overseas has gone up significantly. The dollar was hovering around 80-85 Euros. It is now 70 cents. If importers pay more, this gets passed on to buyers. This is with any product.

The other point to factor in - quality of the game and the work done. I can show you a $9500 Addams Family. I can demonstrate exactly where the value is, regardless of whether you like the game done to that standard. There's $9500 worth of value in that game. Dealers are trying to sell $8500 Addams Familys. They are done to exactly the same standards as 5 years ago when they were $6000. The point being, there not $2500 more "value", but they are more expensive to buy and rather than reduce profits, the product is described as being of higher quality workmanship. But it is not.

Due to a higher level of workmanship becoming available over the last 2 years, astute buyers know they can have access to professionally touched up playfields, professionally re decaled cabinets using Next Gen authorized artwork and have detailed restoration work using genuine parts. It is a niche end of an already niche hobby. But it is there. So when "High End Restorations" are sold for higher prices, some sellers believe that that is where the prices should be set - regardless of the work being done or not. There are stories of sellers claiming games are done by restorers that simply didn't even touch the machine !

Basically, a weekend window shopping trip is not enough time to carefully look at a machine. I know personally, that in the last 12 months, the industry has undergone huge changes.

[greenechidna]

Consider the Sky Jump I just bought.

$600 on ebay....filthy, not going, broken plastics, planked p/f reasonable b/g starting to flake its orange paint, missing lockbar,missing backbox door, ruined coin door, all metal needing replating. The whole thing reeks of rats and is full of dust and rubbish.

Good news is I have one of Gtbs great Krynski wedgeheads. Also it's a chance to save something from the tip. It also employs a bunch of people from Mitch (Mr Pinbologist) to RTBB to Lee at Pinball Rescue to Steve at PBR to whoever fabricates me a backbox door.

Bad news is I pay for it all as well as getting it from Sydney to mid north coast as well as spent hours and hours scrubbing, poking, prodding,

It will be worth roughly $1500 before I even get to the artwork which is easily another grand if i do all the prep and pass it to Mitch. A couple of hundred to either send the metalwork to a plater or start my own plating setup.

While I'd never get my own time to pay for itself, I am really enjoying the process but for someone who doesn't have the time, talent or access to a pro like Mitch  a single player E/M starts to  really add up.

Machines can still be picked up at a good price but with demand being what it is- to my mind increasing as the pinball generation gets nostalgic and cashed up- the era of the sub grand machine is just about over.

My buying spree is over and I've picked up a bunch of really nice titles. Nothing I bought for under a grand will end up will have cost less than 2 grand by the time it's all over and they are all E/Ms.

There is also the possibility that, particularly E/Ms due to their unique and antiquated engineering concepts, are the collectables of tomorrow and the current pricing will seem  very reasonable.   

[Caveoftreasures]

The reality is, five and seven years ago, there were a minimum of a dozen to probably 2 dozen people Australia wide importing container after container from overseas.

The prices the importers paid were half that of the prices now.
As a container buyer, you could at least double and sometimes triple your money.
Importers were buying A list titles for $1800 to $2500 max landed for the best of the best in mint condition.
Machines like LAHero and Creature and many others could be had for $700 to $900. They were cleaned with Nifti and  then sold for $1800. Etc.  Some of those titles at the time u could not give away. Now, they are very collectable.

It was about 7 years ago max and there were massive MASSIVE amounts of machines to be had by importers.
I often saw 8 or more of the same title (Twilight Zone, Addams, MM, AFM etc etc coming out of container after container and it was only a few years later the exporters started placing limits on the A titles and started making the Ausdie importers take B and C titles because they realised all the A and B stuff was being ordered and not the cheaper stuff.

At the time I said to many friends to get in now asap because sooner or later the imports will stop due to a glut or importers will have the tax man catch up to them and the cycle of cheap mass imports would slow or dramatically stop like it has. The overseas exporters also got greedy and that didn't help.

At the time I wanted to buy apx 4 dozen plus pins cause the prices were so good and I had access directly to the importers and could save a lot.
Now, if I was to sell my collection, I would triple my money.
Some days it is very tempting but the replacement price is just ridiculous.

The only bargain I have seen on this forum in the last 12 months was PBP buying the Star Trek 25th from Nino.
Most other prices have been crazy.

My advice, is shop around and ask collectors for the titles you are chasing because a lot of people who bought like me 5 or 7 years ago, didn't pay half of what people are asking now. Not all people selling pins will ask stupid money.

But yes, the prices most people are asking are crazy.
I compare prices of 2nd hand DMD machines to brand new in box Sterns.
It's hard to pay 2 grand more for a 1991 or 1993 etc etc model restored pin compared to buying a brand spanking new Stern Pro even at the highest price of $7850. The brand new Sterns play better than the cookie cutter games of the late 90,s as well. But people who paid crazy money for those So called A title Ballys will never agree cause they will never get their $ back.

Shop around big time is my advice, and if u see a bargain, jump on it straight away cause hesitating will cost you as a lot of people now are looking hard for the bargains.

It's also a good idea to visit the various commercial sellers because in private, great cash deals can still be done. I know this from a lot of personal experience. Ignore the prices you see advertised on ebay etc, go in, see the owner with cash and negotiate hard. There are still great deals to be had.

[skywalker]

Last 12 months + has seen more people enter the hobby, Lots of new guys, old pinheads that have been doing other stuff come back, All the major parts vendors are stocking more parts & prices are very competitive & accessible WW, Entry level Bally/Wms pins are The most sort after & the hardest to find in good condition & at a reasonable price, Value now if your quick is the older/cheaper sterns, Now I would rather have monopoly, WPT, BBH, Sopranos, Grand Prix, playboy, RBION, RS, T3, Elvis, probably couple more you can throw in the mix Rather than over priced B/W B or C title game, I'm not against the B/W pins they are just way over priced built on hype, deals are still to be had out there, you have to be quick & $ in your pocket & be prepared to commit site un seen to secure the deal before someone else pounces ( not that I recommend this ) Being in a inner circle of pin heads doesn't help as much as it used't to, they know they can get way more on the outside if they are willing to deal with the general public, pinball is not a cheap hobby & I see prices only going up due to NIB $$$ still rising,

[intopins]

It can depend on what you are looking for
A list titles from any era do seem over priced, but bargains can be found for fun B list titles

Both forums cclasifieds have been slow for the last 12 months

Most forum trading has been done privately between members

Really? Where are these B list bargains, these a Hook on eBay for $3k at the moment...WFT!!! LW3 for close to $3k, T2 for $4400!!!

I think the clean air in Ballarat has had some effect on you.

Edit just saw a LAH at $3500!!!

My point, I beleive that ppl see these so called high end restores on these forums. When these get put on the forums at absolutely stupid prices are pushing the low end pin prices up creating a price increase. For some reason, there seems to be more guys with better disposable income because these so called restore seem to sell?

[Gorgonzola]

Edit just saw a LAH at $3500!!!

Like any product for sale, the price asked and the price paid can vary significantly. Offer them $2k (for example), then wait 6months for them to realise they are delusional and can't get their asking price, and then go back with your initial (or even lower) offer. They'll probably take it.

[pinball god]

The key here is you don't have to buy at these prices. No one buys, prices must come down.

[pinballjunkie]

A lot of greed is a lot of the problem, I love old Stern SS Machines and up until 2 or 3 years ago, no one really wanted them, they were the POOR MAN'S cheap Bally, but as soon as someone stars showing interest in even old clapped out ones to try and get parts for a bring back to life, that most importers/dealers would strip out and destroy, this cash register in there head goes off and suddenly it's worth $1200-$1500 instead of real price $500-700. Yes there are a couple of early stern titles you would expect to pay bigger money for but get real, machines with totally shot playfields and back glasses all of a sudden triple in price as soon as someone starts to reproduce a playfield or backglass for it. So you pay $1200-$1500 for the machine, another 800 to a 1000 for a repo playfield, 500- 600 for a back glass not including plastics etc etc, what the hell. Still say a lot of greed involved, KISS Machines, Bally Playboy Machines Black Knight 2000, etc etc, SO SICK OF HEARING THE WORD "RARE" They are not rare, sometimes hard to find because people hang on to them, but definitely NOT "RARE" Which is another loosely used term by companies.

[andypinboy]

I can only agree SJ. I think most bally/williams are up $500 to $1,000 on 12 to 18 months ago.

And I think one of the real bargains on this forum was the APR restored eight-ball. Try to 1. do that level of restore (or repopulation) yourself for that money or 2. have it done for you;  & you'll quickly work out why it was the bargain of the year.

[pinnies4me]

I can only agree SJ. I think most bally/williams are up $500 to $1,000 on 12 to 18 months ago.

And I think one of the real bargains on this forum was the APR restored eight-ball. Try to 1. do that level of restore (or repopulation) yourself for that money or 2. have it done for you;  & you'll quickly work out why it was the bargain of the year.

That was one very recent good buy via the forum. Just before that was an Strange Science for I think $1900.00. Good forum deals are still around.

[Strangeways]

It can depend on what you are looking for
A list titles from any era do seem over priced, but bargains can be found for fun B list titles

Both forums cclasifieds have been slow for the last 12 months

Most forum trading has been done privately between members

Really? Where are these B list bargains, these a Hook on eBay for $3k at the moment...WFT!!! LW3 for close to $3k, T2 for $4400!!!

I think the clean air in Ballarat has had some effect on you.

Edit just saw a LAH at $3500!!!

My point, I beleive that ppl see these so called high end restores on these forums. When these get put on the forums at absolutely stupid prices are pushing the low end pin prices up creating a price increase. For some reason, there seems to be more guys with better disposable income because these so called restore seem to sell?

As soon as anyone mentions "eBay" and "Bargains", I cringe. There has not been a "bargain" on eBay for years. I will admit, I have not looked at eBay (pinball related) unless customers asked for my input and as a result were saved from making an expensive mistake !

Your comment regarding the High End Restores is true. The High End market is at it's highest peak since I've been in the hobby / industry. Collectors know it is available. Dealers know they can't do them, so they are missing out on sales. The result is that they put their prices up to "compete" - placing the overpriced pins on eBay, where the suppliers view their prices and then adjust the supplier price as a result.

I've offered a few games on the forum at realistic prices (Special Force, Devil Riders and ST 25th) because I want the games to go to good homes. My market is mainly collectors, so they know the prices. If I put the games on eBay, they would have to be expensive to cover costs. I would not double the price in the hope of hooking a newbie. I'd rather look after a newbie so that they enjoy their entry into the hobby and extend their collection. Most of the new customers are customers burned by impulse buying "done up" machines off showroom floors.

[Blktgr74]

I got very lucky with my phantom of the opera. Got it on Gumtree for $1200 fully working and in nice condition. There are bargains out there but you need to be very luck. I think that the ebay and Gumtree prices would scare most new comers away.