Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters

[andypinboy]

Let's keep the KISS thread on track :) dimples has been done to death or start another thread.

It is on topic. Members should be able to discuss different aspects of the game in the "KISS Stern" thread :)  The impact of the ball out of Gene's mouth on the playfield was a topic of speculation. Now the game is here it's a topic that can be verified one way or the other. Nothing wrong with that - in fact one could say it's the way a healthy forum operates.

[GORGAR 1]

Let's keep the KISS thread on track :) dimples has been done to death or start another thread.

It is on topic. Members should be able to discuss different aspects of the game in the "KISS Stern" thread :)  The impact of the ball out of Gene's mouth on the playfield was a topic of speculation. Now the game is here it's a topic that can be verified one way or the other. Nothing wrong with that - in fact one could say it's the way a healthy forum operates.

Ok fair enough but steel ball pounds wood = dimples :)

[Brunswick Brawler]

Ok fair enough but steel ball pounds wood = dimples :)

The dimples question relates to kiss, as we had discussed if kiss may have a thicker clear than previous Stern pins and what the affect of the ball drops from Gene's
would be on the clear coat.  KISS needs a thick clear.

If it is thicker, then next question would be is has Stern done this for kiss only, or will it be used for all future Sterns.  Yes, that question would be edging to straying from the topic :) .  If the apparent thicker clear is was introduced to deal with the ball feeding/dropping out of Gene's mouth, then it may not be used again on future Sterns.  I hope it truly is thicker, and that it becomes the norm for all future Sterns.


As a location player, I can't resist a shiny new game - even if the gameplay is bad.  Reversing that, only having played a grimy Attack From Mars on location, I find that game average.  A thick long lasting shine would earn heaps more if there are others like me that judge a pin by its shine.

KISS will be a big earner on location, thick clear or not.  But I'd say it would be even a higher earner with a thick long lasting shiny Clear.



PS
Great gameplay video above!

[andypinboy]

Let's keep the KISS thread on track :) dimples has been done to death or start another thread.

It is on topic. Members should be able to discuss different aspects of the game in the "KISS Stern" thread :)  The impact of the ball out of Gene's mouth on the playfield was a topic of speculation. Now the game is here it's a topic that can be verified one way or the other. Nothing wrong with that - in fact one could say it's the way a healthy forum operates.

Ok fair enough but steel ball pounds wood = dimples :)

Yeah okay - I'll learn to live with it. How do you like the gameplay?

[Strangeways]

Let's keep the KISS thread on track :) dimples has been done to death or start another thread.

It is on topic. Members should be able to discuss different aspects of the game in the "KISS Stern" thread :)  The impact of the ball out of Gene's mouth on the playfield was a topic of speculation. Now the game is here it's a topic that can be verified one way or the other. Nothing wrong with that - in fact one could say it's the way a healthy forum operates.

Ok fair enough but steel ball pounds wood = dimples :)

This is where the confusion is. It is not the wood that is "dimpled" or has the ball impact "divots".

ANY playfield with these issues can easily be fixed by block sanding the clearcoat and re clearing. The ball does not affect the timber / wood. If it did, the paint would crack in the shape of the divot.

This problem occurs on these Sterns for two reasons ;

1) Clearcoat is too thin
2) Not enough time is allowed to cure (harden)

The thicker the clear, the longer the curing time. During curing time, no parts should be placed on the playfield. From a business point of view, it is BAD to have a cleared playfield sit there for a month to cure. With proper management, it can be done and it should be done. There's no reason why these playfields could have a thicker clear and longer curing time.

They are the facts. ALL Pinball manufacturers made playfields to be installed on games to make money. Bally Williams got it right. As collectors and hobbyists, we are used to seeing fully restored games with proper clearcoats that last hundreds of games before the first dimple or divot. It is EXPECTED now - so hopefully Stern realize this. Stern are aware that most of these games are going into homes and to have a late model Stern with a "standard clear" of 2 years ago is not going to look good next to a restored game made in the 90's with a restored playfield.

That's why I made the comment earlier that the KISS Pro appeared to have a much thicker clear. It WAS NOT as thin as previous releases, unless the photos from the Stern FB site were doctored.

[GORGAR 1]

My ACDC has held up really well after 1000's of games and so has my TWD there's bugger all dimples on the PF on either :) but my ST had heaps. As many have said the B/W had them to but after 20 years of games they blend in and are less noticeable :) shit now I'm off topic  lol

[swinks]

looks great, like the colour changing pops, looks to be a challenging game, bugger they have skylight / high wall window reflection over the game

interesting at around 5 minutes 11 seconds is a close up of the kiss targets on the left and you can see DIMPLES..... in the skylight reflection part of the playfield (click image to make it bigger) - still looks like a cool game

[andypinboy]

looks great, like the colour changing pops, looks to be a challenging game, bugger they have skylight / high wall window reflection over the game

interesting at around 5 minutes 11 seconds is a close up of the kiss targets on the left and you can see DIMPLES..... in the skylight reflection part of the playfield (click image to make it bigger) - still looks like a cool game

There sure are dimples - holy crap that's really quite bad. The great thing is the game looks tough, some hard shots, colour is awesome, lighting cool & love the pops too. Really looking fwd to LE/prem gameplay!!

[Brunswick Brawler]

looks great, like the colour changing pops, looks to be a challenging game, bugger they have skylight / high wall window reflection over the game

interesting at around 5 minutes 11 seconds is a close up of the kiss targets on the left and you can see DIMPLES..... in the skylight reflection part of the playfield (click image to make it bigger) - still looks like a cool game

Those dimples do look bad.  At the same time, the clear coat does not look as thick as seen previously.  Given this video is taken at the factory, I wonder if this is a prototype machine, and Stern had noted the pitting which lead them to increase the clear coat thickness.

One would hope that is the case.

[Caveoftreasures]

Dimpling on BNIB "never played on" playfields, to me is like the "orange peel effect" seen in the auto industry with factory paint jobs. It can usually only be seen on certain angles under certain light conditions.

I don't believe the clearcoat is too thin.
If the clearcoat wasn't adequately protecting the playfield, then I would Agee, but the clear is doing its job because no damage is occurring to Sterns that people have had for many years.
Just like the flying ball from the cannon shot on ACDC machines, the clearcoat is protecting the playfield cause I haven't seen any damage on my ACDC or anyone else's.

Given that dimpling is present on all manufacturered games incl Bally Williams, Data East and Stern and Sega and Gottlieb and Capcom etc etc, dimpling is only a aesthetic issue, not a representation of a flawed or non protecting clearcoat. I haven't seen any damage on any of my Sterns. So whilst the clear may appear thin to some compared to someone spending $1,000 and getting an already perfect playfield cleared over again and again multiple times, it seems a waste of $ to me because the Standard clearcoat is doing its job already. It seems overkill to get a BNIB game, pay $800 to $1,000 to buy a spare playfield, pay another $1,000 to have it recleared, then have the BNIB game pulled apart at great expense and then put it all back together because of factory incl dimpling.

If the dimpling is only an aesthetic issue when studying the game with your nose to the playfield, then buying new playfields etc etc seems to be a waste of time and $.

People who have had Stern games for many years aren't having issues with the playfield. The clear is fine.
If Dimpling occurs on most playfields from most eras, then why worry about an aesthetic issue which is microscope type stuff. Dimpling does not mean the clearcoat was never adequate.

For anyone who has a query about the Stern clearcoat process, why not drop John Borg a email at Stern USA.

I don't believe people will be unhappy with the KISS game. None of the last 5 years of Stern machines, or Segas from 17 years ago are showing any clearcoat failure so I don't feel a realistic clear issue exists.
I would be happy to send Borgy a email if any member wants me to.

The latest videos look great.
Pete asked if I took a video and some photos etc of the Kiss Pro at TimeZone and the answer is yes.
Will try to load some great photos n a video this next few days.
The game in person looks dam fine. The playfield has a mirror finish and the colours plus plastics look sensational.
Game plays great. Borgys designs always do.
Flow feels like morphing an ACDC Pro by SR with a X Men Pro by Borgy with a little bit of something else thrown in.

The Pro machine, as stock std will please anyone visually.
Add your own unique mods or metal work powdercoating or chrome work with a mix of the factory extras you can buy, and it's one good looking pinny.

I wish the Translite wasn't as close to the original 1978 artwork, but it still works very well.
The topper will look really good on top as well and will enhance the KISS on the translite.

[Strangeways]

I like how Borgy is stoked with his own work. A very good sign - like a fat chef 

I'm enjoying the Stern PR machine, and pictures like this are 100 times better than hearing Gary Stern talk about "business". Really liking this approach with the designers and employees. Very positive. Each day passes, and I am more and more excited to have my LE.

looks great, like the colour changing pops, looks to be a challenging game, bugger they have skylight / high wall window reflection over the game

interesting at around 5 minutes 11 seconds is a close up of the kiss targets on the left and you can see DIMPLES..... in the skylight reflection part of the playfield (click image to make it bigger) - still looks like a cool game

Those dimples do look bad.  At the same time, the clear coat does not look as thick as seen previously.  Given this video is taken at the factory, I wonder if this is a prototype machine, and Stern had noted the pitting which lead them to increase the clear coat thickness.

One would hope that is the case.

I'm hoping the game was a proto playfield. Greg's Stargate has a proto installed with a Bill Davis clearcoat. Not many games on it.

Regarding the "craters", I had a couple of LE owners look at Greg's TWD LE today - and this issue is also on an owners Star Trek LE - but not as bad. Upon closer inspection on TWD LE, there a massive crater on the right hand side inlane. There has never been a ball drop / fly ball or anything similar in this area. There is the inlane plastic and the sling plastic for protection. It makes no sense at all. Yet when unboxed, we all marveled at how the playfield looked like a sheet of glass.

Now I was conditioned to accept that this is the way the games are made. They are commercial machines. But I'm not convinced. Certainly, two prospective buyers were not at all impressed with the playfield issues. So if Stern think this IS the way it should be, they need to rethink their marketing strategy.

I have no issue in buying a second playfield and having it professionally clearcoated. It is clearly the only way a modern NIB Stern will stack up against almost all commercial repro playfields, or professional clearcoaters.

[Caveoftreasures]

So $1,000 for a spare playfield, plus massive $ postage from the USA, then an extra $1,000 to have it re cleared makes a minimum of $2,000 to $2,500....
Then add 50 to 100 hours of work to swap out playfields ?

Seems like massive overkill to me when Std playfield is already mirror finish ?

What happens if the aftermarket $2500,s worth of reclear job starts to go hazy or do something weird after a year or three ? You are back to square one and $2500 down plus all the labour $.

What worries me is the unproven longevity of placing automative clear products designed for metal on wood
playfields ? Aren't these guys using automative 2 pack ?
Unless the people doing the clearcoats are using a wood only type clear suited specifically for wood only ?

Has anyone in Australia had a recleared playfield field tested for 2 or 3 years and seen the longevity from automative 2 pack ? Do the ball swirl marks polish out easily with Novus or normal Pinny wax etc.

At $2500 Apx for the exercise, that is a lot of $ for a little extra shine ?
Each to their own.

[swinks]

I think Cavey you might be blending 2 things here. Nino brought up dimpling due to thin clear coats and stated noticeable dimpling has been noted on games and you introduced damage and wear to clear coats which is a different issue and believe that suggests wearing down or cracking of the clear down to the screen layer of the playfield. Admittedly the clear coats have been holding up well on most games from observation of the various forums but the dimple depressions has been around for years and maybe on the increase of late and guessing that clear coats have evolved over the years improving wear and improving the degrees of resistance to dimpling.

Just a theory...

I am not an expert in clear coats but brought up on timberwork with my father being a woodwork teacher for 40 years + 15 years into his retirement and having written a couple hundred articles for various mags around the world so learnt a bit through his knowledge. A steel ball is harder than timber which we all know and I am sure all clear coats as well. My theory is that the ply used - meaning soft or hard varieities and the number of layers of ply plays a big part in what dimples develop I believe. When I got my IM late 2010 I asked AMD if they could get me a spare IM playfield which they did and interestingly for $650 to AMD's door. The first thing I noticed while both playfields remained the same thickness was the number of layers reduced with each layer becoming thicker which in turn allows more top layer compression and would be cheaper to make. Also Canadian Maple can be found as a soft or hard variety and the soft is commonly related to fast growth plantation timber which is cheaper. I don't know for a fact but the problem could be a combination of number of layers, soft or hard variety used and possibly a middle of the line thin clear coat used which will wears fine as the clear is strong but not strong enough to resist a steel ball racing around causing compression spots = dimples. Could Stern be doing a thicker clear to compensate for cheaper slightly softer ply with less layers? They won't admit to that.

The fact is dimpling has been around for a while and you often need the right light to see them and maybe on the flip side once all the playfield is dimpled it is harder and flat again so keep playing and enjoy.

[Strangeways]

So $1,000 for a spare playfield, plus massive $ postage from the USA, then an extra $1,000 to have it re cleared makes a minimum of $2,000 to $2,500....
Then add 50 to 100 hours of work to swap out playfields ?

Seems like massive overkill to me when Std playfield is already mirror finish ?

What happens if the aftermarket $2500,s worth of reclear job starts to go hazy or do something weird after a year or three ? You are back to square one and $2500 down plus all the labour $.

What worries me is the unproven longevity of placing automative clear products designed for metal on wood
playfields ? Aren't these guys using automative 2 pack ?
Unless the people doing the clearcoats are using a wood only type clear suited specifically for wood only ?

Has anyone in Australia had a recleared playfield field tested for 2 or 3 years and seen the longevity from automative 2 pack ? Do the ball swirl marks polish out easily with Novus or normal Pinny wax etc.

At $2500 Apx for the exercise, that is a lot of $ for a little extra shine ?
Each to their own.

Some of that is correct. For those that are used to the standard of clear, they need to take that extra step which stern SHOULD do in the factory. So really, it is an indictment of the quality of the build. Having said that, the context of my observations are that of someone who is used to providing a level of workmanship that is beyond the commercial constraints of running a business. But having said that, I'm running a business, and if I was to provide a client with a playfield that looked like the surface of the moon after 100 games, then I deserve to be criticized. The more people that complain, the more Stern will attend to this issue.

Based on three collectors viewing the TWD LE TODAY, all agreed that it is simply not acceptable for a NIB pinball machine to have a clear that badly affected. One collector has a lesser degree of the problem on a Star Trek LE. Another is a customer that was simply "put off" buy the issue. The third was surprised at the problem for such a low play game. To suggest that this SHOULD be acceptable, is simply just not right. One customer would be inclined to buy a Stern NIB - but after seeing the TWD LE - that won't happen. That frustrates me. I'm no fanboi, but I want stern to succeed, but i also want them to take their head out of the sand and listen to people who are genuinely trying to help.

I will post pictures on a separate thread on the proviso I'm not accused of being a Stern basher !

I used to think Greg's habit of buying a second playfield was simply "Greg being Greg" - he did this A LOT. But he brushed off the issue as being "normal for Stern clearcoats". It was "my problem.." I'm now a buyer. A NEW Stern customer - and I'm THRILLED to have and LE. But I'm frustrated that it is very possible that MY LE will look like TWD LE after 100 games ? Is this for real ?? That's BS for a $11,000 pinball machine.

To address your points Brett ;

The shipping would be similar to the topper - but a playfield would be thrown in to a container and cost nothing if I ask nicely 
Not sure who clearcoats in your neck of the woods, but a clearcoat does not cost $1000 - $1500. Nowhere near it.
Playfield would cost $1000 landed if I had it shipped direct from Stern USA.
Hours to replace playfield ? don't care - it is my game !

Agreed - Mirror finish for the first handful of games - then it deteriorates.

The aftermarket clear would cost me 1/4 of your price.

I've cleared my own playfield (Ace's High) with a varnish 5 years ago, and it has had hundreds of games and looks perfect to this day.
I've had a Fathom cleared by an astute friend of mine 4-5 years ago and it is perfect to this day.
I've had 5 Bally / Williams playfields cleared over the last 5 years and all are perfect. No dimpling, divots, planking or reaction with the clear.

this should put anyone's mind to ease. The automotive clearcoats done by semi professionals and perfectionists like Hot Rodded Pins are better than any current commercial or boutique manufacturer. Greg's NEW Spiderman and Iron Man are currently at HRP undergoing a clearcoat process.

I have no problem buying a second playfield due to the clearcoat issue. I've just "accepted" it as being a commercial grade clearcoat. It is not a purist clearcoat = not a High End collector clearcoat.

thread has been slightly deviated - we might look at splitting it - sorry to those of you that have no interest in this discussion.

Again - I have a horse in this race, and I've been vocal to look after my own investment and also to provide constructive criticism. Some of which I have passed on to the Distributor that I ordered my game from.

My Stern KISS LE will be a centrepiece in my collection.

[Caveoftreasures]

I think you are on the money with what you are wanting for your tastes Nino. Fair enough.

The figures I used re the Playfield costing $1,000 is in line with recent pricing of brand new playfields from Stern.
Kiss playfield espescially for a LE may cost more ?
The postage has to be factored in because 99 percent of people are not going to get it sent for free and the $400 cost for shipping is probably close based on other shipping quotes I have been informed of.
We haven't converted USA dollars $ to Aussie dollars yet so add 20 percent on top for both playfield purchase and shipping, insurance etc.

The clear coat cost you mention you would pay being around $250 is not going to be the same for normal Joe Public at retail prices. I doubt anyone up here or in Vic is going to charge less than $750 from my homework.
So again, the costs are extremely expensive for the average punter to go the way you are choosing.

I don't know and can't work out what your TWDead LE has wrong with it but I have never seen or heard of that on any Stern game after 100 plays.
I don't want people thinking there is something wrong with Sterns std factory clearcoat on 99.99 percent of their games because in my experience no issue exists and it would be unfortunate if people didn't buy a New Stern cause they think the playfields are all faulty when they are not. Any lost sales of any pinball machines in our hobby is one too many for me.

The clearcoat results that you like as standard I think have to be described as perfectionist so people can understand that there is not a normal need to go over and beyond the standard Stern clear unless you are a perfectionist, and even then, I think to be fair, the clearcoat results you are wanting for your personal Kiss pin would be for maybe one or five percent of normal buyers. Spending big money having a 90,s DMD game fully reconditioned to a Holy grail standard is fine for the one off purchase or Resto on that special game, but going to that level if you buy Sterns regularly to build a large collection like some of us Stern fanboys do would be cost prohibitive on a already brand new product. Probably for most anyway I would guess.

I don't know if Stern would or could or should go to those extremes financially with their playfields but I guess it wouldn't hurt for people to ask for the Deluxe of Deluxe clearcoat jobs if that's what they want. Perhaps it may be something Stern could look at if it entails a second clear of their playfields or a thicker coat from the get go.
I think I will ask them about their current process and ask about future plans if any or could feel them out about their clearcoat ing strategy incase they have something in mind ?

I don't believe you are a Stern badger because you want your game a certain way, but I do think the restoration high end environment of no expense spared of a single machine for a single customer market is probably a different world /situation compared to the mass manufacture of Sterns or JJP,s machines.

Maybe we will see some advances with both Stern and JJP on this front by those two businesses because they both are already involved in massive product development and judging by the last 2 to 5 years, they are making technology and product improvements daily and are working hard to get every cent out of the home pinball market.

What I am wondering about your Walking a Dead LE, is what the issue really is.
Until a few photos, I can only guess. Are the divets/dimples occurring cause the wood is too soft, regardless of clearcoat thickness, or is it just a normal microscopic wear n tear dimples from normal play that dissapears after cleaning or polishing ? Hard to understand the issue cause I have not heard or seen it before on a new Stern where new divets/dimples are appearing.

Either way, KISS machines will be here sooner or later and we will all get to see if the current batch of clearcoated playfields are still as shiny and tuff enough or better than the last 5 years worth of games that I have felt were perfectly fine playfield wise.

These days, customers want the very best for their dollar, so it's normal to be highly quality or end result finish focused as you are. Being someone who does restorations, your expectations were always going to be probably higher than anyone else's and is to be expected. Maybe you won't bother pulling your new machine to a 1000 bits and you might be happy with the factory finish. ?

I have always wondered if the pinball industry could have used a different ball coated in Teflon or something which wouldn't be as abrasive as steel or chrome balls. Maybe that leap forward would help playfield wear n tear ?