Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters

[Pinballer]

What I don't get, is why some people fawn over the manufacturers, it's the same on Pinside and other forums.  If the product isn't good quality then the customers has every right to complain and ask for the issue to be rectified.  It's that simple.  Having to swap out a playfield of all its components is just not right, sure it's a solution that Stern and Nino settled on, but it's just not right and could be argued sets a precedence.  If Stern and other manufactures can get away with this sort of treatment, what onus is there for them to do anything over and above that??

Once upon a time, on the rare occasion there was major playfield defects that couldn't be swapped out easily, the old time manufacturers would send NOS wired playfields out and ask the operator to swap their defective playfield for the new one and the manufacturer/distributor would take the defective one back.  Or a heavy discount was provided for their next purchase.  Why would Stern do either of those things, when people accept less??  They can and would do more if pushed by their customers.  Same as any business that wants to stay in business would do.  If the penalty for poor playfield quality control was the expense of building and sending a replacement playfield, I'm sure they wouldn't cut corners in future!

Just my 2 cents on the whole affair, it pisses me off that Stern take their customers for granted.

[pinoffski]

I have many of moon craters on my recent purchase of a nib..
so nothing is going to change...

they just keep laughing at us...  

It will be my first and last purchase of a NIB...

[Brunswick Brawler]

I read a thread on Facebook that a USA purchaser of a KISS pro kept complaining about the alinement Gene's head causing the ball to drain down the middle.  After giving instructions to the owner several times to level the machine and rotate Gene's head, the person allegedly couldn't' get the ball to not drain.  Stern gave him a full refund, even though in my opinion it wasn't warranted!

So better a company that warrants their product beyond their started warranty, than a company that provides great warranty but needs to be taken to court to follow through.

[Pop Bumper Pete]

I read a thread on Facebook that a USA purchaser of a KISS pro kept complaining about the alinement Gene's head causing the ball to drain down the middle.  After giving instructions to the owner several times to level the machine and rotate Gene's head, the person allegedly couldn't' get the ball to not drain.  Stern gave him a full refund, even though in my opinion it wasn't warranted!

So better a company that warrants their product beyond their started warranty, than a company that provides great warranty but needs to be taken to court to follow through.

but even better would be a company that tests a game before releasing it to the public

I sometimes wonder how much play they give a whitewood before they put it into production

[Strangeways]

What I don't get, is why some people fawn over the manufacturers, it's the same on Pinside and other forums.  If the product isn't good quality then the customers has every right to complain and ask for the issue to be rectified.  It's that simple.  Having to swap out a playfield of all its components is just not right, sure it's a solution that Stern and Nino settled on, but it's just not right and could be argued sets a precedence.  If Stern and other manufactures can get away with this sort of treatment, what onus is there for them to do anything over and above that??

Once upon a time, on the rare occasion there was major playfield defects that couldn't be swapped out easily, the old time manufacturers would send NOS wired playfields out and ask the operator to swap their defective playfield for the new one and the manufacturer/distributor would take the defective one back.  Or a heavy discount was provided for their next purchase.  Why would Stern do either of those things, when people accept less??  They can and would do more if pushed by their customers.  Same as any business that wants to stay in business would do.  If the penalty for poor playfield quality control was the expense of building and sending a replacement playfield, I'm sure they wouldn't cut corners in future!

Just my 2 cents on the whole affair, it pisses me off that Stern take their customers for granted.

My situation was going to be unique right from the start. Thanks to Joe in WA and Michael at AMD, it was decided that I would receive a blank playfield as this is what I indicated I would prefer. I didn't want a populated playfield. Greg always had spare playfields (Stern, Bally Williams, Williams and Gottlieb) that he would have clearcoated and saved for a later date. The other thing that worried me was the history of poorly cleared Stern playfields. It has always been "hit and miss". So I wanted a blank from "day 1". I will have it cleared properly at HRP, then swap them out.

The option of delivering the machine to the local Stern dealer to swap out was never going to happen (from my perspective).

So my situation should never be presented to anyone unless they specifically asked for it to be a blank playfield. AMD and Joe were helpful in this regard.

Stern USA were also helpful in ensuring I was a happy customer. I even had a call from the boss, who was a very "down to earth" person and he wanted to hear everything I had to say. Unfortunately, the emails to Stern R&D have not progressed, but I had "my say", and I know from other manufacturer's, that Stern was definitely interested in starting to look at newer technologies. It has hit a brick wall, but I'm going to try again in the New Year.

It is an enigma - something so bloody easy to fix at the manufacturing level - and these issues would be minimized. There would be no need to store surplus playfields for warranty claims. It is frustrating, because I know HOW to fix this - it is no big "trade secret". But how do you get their attention long enough for them to bend ? My LE is bloody perfect - I love it - but I don't want to sound like a whinger.So frustrating.

[Caveoftreasures]

@CoT
Maybe they are not pinheads
Maybe they don't want to maybe do a playfield swap
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out

Customers, who know what crazy things gothrough their minds

Maybe like 99.99 percent of Stern buyers they would have been totally happy with the product.
Maybe they were steered away from BNIB & were encouraged to spend $ on their old machines.

[Caveoftreasures]

I have many friends in Qld & other states who I see often who have many BNIB Stern purchases under their belts & I see their machines often & they don't have any of these problems. They have new Kiss, Mustang, TWDead & so on.
I looked at their games hard & not an issue.

Maybe we should actually ask people who have actually purchased a BNIB Stern if they have had a issue with the playfield & get some real data from the masses instead of a few isolated incidences.
That would be an objective way for this thread to get some fresh data instead of it just being about a few machines ?

[Pop Bumper Pete]

@CoT
Maybe they are not pinheads
Maybe they don't want to maybe do a playfield swap
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out

Customers, who know what crazy things gothrough their minds

Maybe like 99.99 percent of Stern buyers they would have been totally happy with the product.
Maybe they were steered away from BNIB & were encouraged to spend $ on their old machines.

Excuse me,
Are you saying this is all a beat up by Nino so he can sell more restored games?

The guy has a four year waiting list, he does not need to attack Stern to get extra salrs

[Pinballer]

Nino, I honestly didn't mean to offend you with my original comments and respect your decision to end up with a new playfield to clearcoat and install down the road.  Faced with the same situation, I would have chosen the same outcome. We have the ability to do this kind of work and do it properly.  But what about those that don't?!  Those that are left in the hands of Stern support??

My original comments were aimed at a higher level of overall customer satisfaction and delivering a quality product. If Stern had a real incentive, that being to avoid either further cost/time consuming penalty, such as supplying a new completely wired playfield where this type of thing has occurred, then I bet their quality control would improve and the cost cutting focus would change.  They were especially bad for this during the time where they were the only manufacturer.

There is a thread on Pinside, where a bloke bought a NIB Metallica and the playfield was warped.  https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/met-playfield-twisted  The playfield wouldn't sit on the lock down assembly straight and level, which effected game play as well.  It literally took months for Stern to rectify the problem, around 6 months!  That sort of customer service is pathetic.  They eventually built and sent him a new playfield, only after they had his playfield for months, so in effect he had no game, just and empty cabinet for months on end.  The real killer was when he installed the new playfield, it had multiple faults, wiring errors etc.  The playfield obviously wasn't thoroughly tested prior to being sent out.  So this customer gets hit twice!  Luckily enough he had a friend and Stern Tech support help him rectify the problems over a few days.  It's absolutely pathetic the way he was treated and my fear is this will continue whilst Stern is allowed the freedom to treat its customers how they choose.  It may have been another time, but you wouldn't have seen Dave Gottlieb treat a customer in such a fashion.

[Strangeways]

@CoT
Maybe they are not pinheads
Maybe they don't want to maybe do a playfield swap
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out

Customers, who know what crazy things gothrough their minds

Maybe like 99.99 percent of Stern buyers they would have been totally happy with the product.
Maybe they were steered away from BNIB & were encouraged to spend $ on their old machines.

You are living in a bubble.

You also need to read ;

1) My TWD LE Review
2) My KISS LE Review
3) My KISS LE Unboxing thread
4) This thread from the first page

Then re read you second comment.

To save you the hassle - My personal NIB KISS LE was left here, at my place of work, for around 2 weeks, so that KISS fans and Pinball fans could compare the Pro and LE models and HOPEFULLY order a Premium. Any logical and intelligent person would arrive at the conclusion that I was trying to encourage sales. To assume i did that to encourage more restoration work is completely illogical and laughable.

I have many friends in Qld & other states who I see often who have many BNIB Stern purchases under their belts & I see their machines often & they don't have any of these problems. They have new Kiss, Mustang, TWDead & so on.
I looked at their games hard & not an issue.

Maybe we should actually ask people who have actually purchased a BNIB Stern if they have had a issue with the playfield & get some real data from the masses instead of a few isolated incidences.
That would be an objective way for this thread to get some fresh data instead of it just being about a few machines ?

Again, read the thread from the start. "real data" - So I'm just making this up ? We have had EXPERTS in this area (Tim and Stu from HRP) and my clearcoat expert that does older games all arrive at exactly the same conclusion. Stern Australia and Stern USA both agree it was a "factory defect". They are the real Stern experts.

We have had the figurehead at Stern - and I quote - "If your machine does not have dimples then you need to start playing it". EVERYONE accepts dimples to be part of a played pinball machine. Facts are facts. We are not trying to re write history. Stern have admitted they use the same clearcoat as they did 15 years ago. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. The focus is clearly on remedying the problem, not making up far fetched assumptions.

@CoT
Maybe they are not pinheads
Maybe they don't want to maybe do a playfield swap
Maybe the think that after spending over $10,000, something should last a few years before looking worn out

Customers, who know what crazy things gothrough their minds

Maybe like 99.99 percent of Stern buyers they would have been totally happy with the product.
Maybe they were steered away from BNIB & were encouraged to spend $ on their old machines.

Excuse me,
Are you saying this is all a beat up by Nino so he can sell more restored games?

The guy has a four year waiting list, he does not need to attack Stern to get extra salrs

Correct. If I wanted more resto work, why would I have left my LE at work for 2 weeks so friends, forum members and customers could play it with the intention of creating sales.

Nino, I honestly didn't mean to offend you with my original comments and respect your decision to end up with a new playfield to clearcoat and install down the road.  Faced with the same situation, I would have chosen the same outcome. We have the ability to do this kind of work and do it properly.  But what about those that don't?!  Those that are left in the hands of Stern support??

My original comments were aimed at a higher level of overall customer satisfaction and delivering a quality product. If Stern had a real incentive, that being to avoid either further cost/time consuming penalty, such as supplying a new completely wired playfield where this type of thing has occurred, then I bet their quality control would improve and the cost cutting focus would change.  They were especially bad for this during the time where they were the only manufacturer.

There is a thread on Pinside, where a bloke bought a NIB Metallica and the playfield was warped.  https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/met-playfield-twisted  The playfield wouldn't sit on the lock down assembly straight and level, which effected game play as well.  It literally took months for Stern to rectify the problem, around 6 months!  That sort of customer service is pathetic.  They eventually built and sent him a new playfield, only after they had his playfield for months, so in effect he had no game, just and empty cabinet for months on end.  The real killer was when he installed the new playfield, it had multiple faults, wiring errors etc.  The playfield obviously wasn't thoroughly tested prior to being sent out.  So this customer gets hit twice!  Luckily enough he had a friend and Stern Tech support help him rectify the problems over a few days.  It's absolutely pathetic the way he was treated and my fear is this will continue whilst Stern is allowed the freedom to treat its customers how they choose.  It may have been another time, but you wouldn't have seen Dave Gottlieb treat a customer in such a fashion.

I can't find an offending word in your original post - I highlighted a sentence with a reply so readers don't assume that Stern will send out a playfield for everyone complaining about issues.

There's no point in complaining about something without providing a solution. A populated playfield would not work for me. The blank playfield was perfect in my situation. Stern would replace the defective playfield with a populated playfield (as was indicated was the likely outcome for me, until I requested a blank) for a HUO owner with a similar issue. I know the members that contacted me to keep them in the loop were told the same thing.


I'd like to make one point crystal clear - Stern were thorough in their decision to assist with TWD LE playfield problem. It was not a case of sending out a playfield without the photos passing through several people at Stern / AMD / KJWHF. Every single employee of Stern, or business' associated were all in agreement regarding the playfield. It was never a case of simply sending me a playfield because I whinged hard enough. There has to be compelling evidence to justify a warranty claim such as this. Stern / AMD / KJWHF were brilliant in working with me to rectify the issue.

I'm updating this thread because I want Stern to seriously look at recent technologies ( HRP Clearcoating process and products), instead of the 15 year old technology that clearly is "hit and miss". I will try again in the New Year.

[Pinballer]

I can't find an offending word in your original post - I highlighted a sentence with a reply so readers don't assume that Stern will send out a playfield for everyone complaining about issues.

There's no point in complaining about something without providing a solution. A populated playfield would not work for me. The blank playfield was perfect in my situation. Stern would replace the defective playfield with a populated playfield (as was indicated was the likely outcome for me, until I requested a blank) for a HUO owner with a similar issue. I know the members that contacted me to keep them in the loop were told the same thing.


I'd like to make one point crystal clear - Stern were thorough in their decision to assist with TWD LE playfield problem. It was not a case of sending out a playfield without the photos passing through several people at Stern / AMD / KJWHF. Every single employee of Stern, or business' associated were all in agreement regarding the playfield. It was never a case of simply sending me a playfield because I whinged hard enough. There has to be compelling evidence to justify a warranty claim such as this. Stern / AMD / KJWHF were brilliant in working with me to rectify the issue.

I'm updating this thread because I want Stern to seriously look at recent technologies ( HRP Clearcoating process and products), instead of the 15 year old technology that clearly is "hit and miss". I will try again in the New Year.

I couldn't agree more, a new playfield for just any old issue isn't warranted and shouldn't be expected.  Without conclusive evidence it's just plain ridiculous.  It's good to hear that you were offered a complete playfield though, not that it was helpful to you, but to hear one was offered eases things a bit in my mind.  I still can't get over the treatment the bloke in the USA received from Stern with his warped Metallica playfield.  Hopefully your issue and the others that I've read about online, result in Stern examining their processes and improving their quality standards and control.  Games just shouldn't ship from their factory with fundamental flaws.

Your efforts in trying to get Stern to improve are very much the right thing to do, hopefully they will take your advice and improve their standards and we can leave any doubts behind when considering buying NIB games.   

[KBRI1700]

Consumers buy Stern pinball machines in good faith under the promise of an advertising blurb.

The product they receive does not match what was advertised; if the model that you bought is popular then you might get code updates however if it is not then you are stuck with a substandard product.

People are complaining because the after sales side of things are not up to scratch (poor build quality, code updates etc).

I understand the production line has to move (new titles) however the after sales side of the equation needs to be addressed.

Unfortunately until NIB sales are affected, I don't see any change in the Stern business practice/model.

[swinks]

Apparently the latest is that lots of people around the world are having issues with GB and SMVE with cracking around inserts, inserts dropping & rising, crazing and insert ghosting (similar to MMr) so who ever is making their playfields are getting worst. I to a local who has a GB Pro who said his mate who has a GBLE has ghosting, cracking around his inserts and a few inserts have dropped down lower than the playfield.

[Cow Corner]

This is why I dropped my Prem order quicker than Jarred Hayne dropped the NRL and then the NFL. I'm very happy I bought a Tron instead, I can always get a GB 2nd hand later.
Crazy money for NIB as it is but to have these sort of issues with cracking, ghosting etc straight out of the box is totally un-acceptable imho.

[Retropin]

Apparently the latest is that lots of people around the world are having issues with GB and SMVE with cracking around inserts, inserts dropping & rising, crazing and insert ghosting (similar to MMr) so who ever is making their playfields are getting worst. I to a local who has a GB Pro who said his mate who has a GBLE has ghosting, cracking around his inserts and a few inserts have dropped down lower than the playfield.

All starting to point to unseasoned timber. Appears to be very soft when you get a game hence the dimples which flatten out ( timber seasoning itself) and then shrinking also ( cracking or coming away from inserts).
It does very much sound like "green" ply being used to me.