EXPO 2010 NOW DEAD

[Caveoftreasures]

Has anyone ever been to a professional Boating Show.??

Has anyone ever been to a professional Motor Car Show.??

Has anyone been to a professional Caravan and camping show. ??

Let me say this from the start, and if u dont agree,in all respect, YOU MIGHT BE KIDDING YOURSELF !

These shows are held for one reason, to showcase and sell product.That means that dirty word MONEY $$$.

let me say it again, TO SHOWCASE AND SELL PRODUCT.$$$$$$$$$$ Jet ski companies - every one of them attends. Every boat manufacturer attends. Every Motor manufacturer attends. Same with all the Car companies and every support product company there is, and then look at the Caravan and Camping Shows, every brand name you could imagine.

They dont attend with an attitude of gee, i hope people like our stuff, they attend with the attitude of
" I HOPE THEY BUY OUR STUFF AND REFER US TO EVERY FAMILY N FRIEND THEY HAVE".
Professional Expos are not charitys, they are money making events for business people. Do these companies hope you buy on the day, YES, that is the aim. Do they care if you buy next week, or next month, or next year, they want EXPOSURE. As long as u buy sooner or later.That is the sole aim.

These Expos are not a meeting place for people who go fishing to meet up n swap stories, forums are for that. These Expos are to showcase, sell n offer NEW or existing product.
In utmost respect, anyone who thinks holding a PINBALL EXPO is about meets n greets, and warm n fuzzy feelings, its not. That comes naturally as we drool over all the new STERNS or over the ramps we see on someone's stand, or that Fully refurbred Twilight Zone that Bumper Action Or PSP has sitting there gleaming with a price sticker attached.Thats what a professional Expo is about.
What about a Expo where a pinball machine was offered with finance that you could afford. Gee, u went there for a look, and ended up spending say 8 grand. Thats what Expo's are about. Surprises, Specials, New products you havent seen before. Do u walk out spending that bit extra on the Mastercard or your cash savings, than what you thought you would before you walked in, hell yes. aND THATS SOMETIMES THE FUN, AND THE AIM FOR SMART eXPO OPERATORS/STALL HOLDERS.

Will we all meet up n say hello, ofcourse. Will some of us spend money, HELL YES. Will some just attend n say hello, YES.
Look at every USA version of the Expo. Its about Sales n meeting great contacts, both being within the Industry or potential Customers.

Does anyone hold a auction of second hand stuff at a professional Boat show, or car show, or Camping Caravan Show. NO NO NO.
I mention this for future expos, not a review of last years format. They did the best they could do.

ALSO, who cares what one seller thinks of the other, do u think YAMAHA employees care what Suzuki people think of them.
Do u think HOLDEN cares what FORD THINKS OF THEM ? NO NO.NO

If I had a business that was totally PINBALL, I would put on a expo that would make alot of money, and alot of people happy.
BUT I run a Security Business. Do i go to SECURITY EXPO'S, yes, do i make shitloads of money there, you bet. Do I care about the opposition, No, couldnt care less.

For the time being, PINBALL EXPO in Australia seems dead n buried for the next year or 3 or 4, until the big boys of the Industry decide to join forces and professionally offer their products.

p.s- A large boat manufacturer on the Gold Coast, was almost in recievership, owing 6 million, it attended a BOATING EXPO on the Gold Coast, only this last few weeks. It got orders for 250 Million Dollars, deposits of 40 million, and their future is now sound. Now, why did the people who bought the boats at the Expo, buy them over that weekend, instead of last week, or last month, My answer IS -
GO TO A PROFESSIONAL EXPO AND ASK THE PEOPLE SHOWING THEIR PRODUCTS JUST HOW IMPORTANT THAT 2 OR 4 DAY EXPO EVENT IS TO THEIR BOTTOM LINE EACH YEAR !.. SAY "ARE YOU COMING TO THE EXPO NEXT YEAR?
 
IT DONESNT TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO WORK OUT THE ANSWER.
Also, Mark, dont worry about the 1 percent who may not like u, there is still 99percent of us who enjoy doing business with you. A Pinball Expo in Australia could be such a great money spinner. Even the opposition in the pinball industry loves money. And we all get to attend, spend n have fun. Now, I will just stay positive to/for the future. Never say Never.   Long Live Pinball.

[Wotto]

Cavey I agree with you 100 thousand percent in your reply.

Thats 100 THOUSAND percent   


I too am involved in a business that utilises Expo style events as ONE way of marketing and promoting our gear, company and people , and God forbid sell product - and it works.

I knew the late great Andrew Short VERY well , he used to dedicate a staff member , year round to be part of the Sydney Boating Expo and as it drew closer he had a stack of staff invested in the Expo - why - because he took MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE sales orders at the Expo, and he saw the exposure the Expo gave him, his business and his products to NEW CUSTOMERS and his existing customer base.
He was no fool and he made a shitload of money and his business is still one of the biggest boating companies in Sydney even after his death ( RIP Shorty )

MAYBE it wouldnt be AS succesful in our tight-knit hobby - I dont know - but we wont even try it 

[ajlaird]

I imagine that at the moment we are really talking about the economics of running an event for a much smaller industry. The marine industry in Australia is worth about $7 billion annually, the pinball industry I have no idea, but I am guessing $100 million??? So there is an issue of affordability - the larger the industry the more easily they can afford a great expo.

Most industry expos are run by professional exhibition organisers who do it for a living and I presume they make decent money out of it as they usually charge both the exhibitors and the exhibition-goers. I have seen certain exhibitions cease over time due to eventual lack of interest from the industry.

As to last expo - there were a number of exhibitors although the size of the venue did not allow too many. I think it wouldn't have been too difficult to get them back as they seemed to do all right out of it.

[Caveoftreasures]

yeh, well said AJ.

Give me say a total of fifty new STERN pinballs, 4 or 5 of each of the available makes n models, give me a Certigy or GE Credit style finance deal, and i will flog them all at a Expo. Then we move onto Twilights, Indys, Addams etc etc etc.

There is plenty of money out there, lots of mums n dads who can afford a fifty buck a week payment. Lots of newbies who would (with our help) turn into collectors/addicts etc .lol

If I lived in Melbourne, give me a few weeks to find a venue, that some broke landlord would like to rent out for a few weeks, every pinhead on AA and AP to spread the word, a few radio stations throwing in a few ads, a few community newspapers, plus the usual avenues of the cheaper advertising, and i reckon, even I , could talk WG, Mark, Bumper and others into a great show.

If the desire is there, NOTHING is impossible. Nothing.

But, I am just a mere mortal.lol   

Lets wait 3 or 6 months and see what the melbourne lads reckon.     

[Homepin]

I have been involved as an organiser for many airshows.

They do NOT make money AT ALL - EVER.

They do however, raise public awareness of aviation.

It is NOT always about the money...............

[ajlaird]

It is all achievable if the desire is there, but someone would need to take 3 or 4 months out of their life to get it done!

Wanted: one organiser willing to put together a pinball expo for no money, just the satisfaction of putting something in place. Healthy bank balance to provide deposits for venue, insurance and advertising would be highly regarded.

[Retropin]

I often do work for a company that relied on setting up stands as major income at several shows here in Brisbane including the motor show. 2 years back the work dropped off dramatically due to the high costs of having a stall at these venues. People just werent prepared to pay the $$$'s
 I too have had a stall at a sign show.. the costs involved were huge and no we did not beak even.. we lost money. Did we create awareness?? Well yes of course. Did we do it again? No.

Pinball Expo is ( was) a very different affair. My stall last year was cheap, but add flights and hotels and it cost me over $2000 to present myself. No i did not make money there or in the year following.

Major criticism of last years expo was the auction. Michael tried to NOT have this.. it was obviously a major sticking point. Did last year break even? ..NO. Both Michael and Ryan LOST money.

So the community cries no auction. Michael listens and tries to set this years up without it. Problem is that the upfront costs are huge.. over $10000 was spent last year on radio advertising alone.
It cant work both ways... pin prices are down... selling pins to cover costs is subject to huge criticism.. and yet these guys are expected to front costs to keep US happy... well it didnt work and so Expo is off for this year.

A few commercial dealers wanted to sell pins last year... did they want to contribute to costs.. NO. They wanted a free platform to sell their wares.
Couple that with the bitching that goes on... dealers hating each other.. forums against each other...  a group of people conspiring to ruin last year ( yes it happened) by threatening to auction off pins outside the venue... these people didnt want it to work, but it did.. at a loss.
Mark C is right.. if he attends then others wont... if WG attends then NO ONE else will. And so on and so on
The pinball community is NOT united in its hobby.. its divided many times.

Expo 2010 is off.. i think this is very sad. I wasnt even sure i could attend and hated the thought of missing it.
basic fact is that Michael and Ryan do not have the $$'s to put upfront.. no one else has stepped up to fund it. Auction to pay for it is a big NO NO ( apparently).. so where do the funds come from?
 Not from my stall... had i paid standard price for an Expo stall, there is no way i would present myself.
I got asked time and time again last year.. do i have permission to do this.. do that etc etc etc... you cant do this.. you dont have licence. Blah Blah bloody blah
Well i could do this and that cos i wasnt selling the BG i had on the stall.. was for my own machine... in fact all i had for sale were 2 neon signs.
Well yes, now i have licence and could sell stencils etc... but i try to keep these priced low.. prices include a royalty fee that i pay. How many stencils would i have to sell at Expo just to cover the costs if it were run as a large show type affair... aint hard to work out... its not possible.
Expo was run last year as a hobbyist type affair.. low price on a stall.... low price to enter.. create awareness etc etc etc.. but fund it with an auction.
YOU.. the community did not like this funding style.. but without someone coming along with VERY deep pockets along with a much higher entry fee and stall fee i cant see how Expo can function.

Expo 2009 happened... it got slammed before and after the affair.. criticism from so many who wanted it run how THEY would like it run but are not willing to put time, energy and most importantly $$$'s where its needed.


The general community killed Expo this year.. no one else... but hey! Thats bloody pinball for you!

[Caveoftreasures]

Mike (Homepin), my father is a pilot so I know where u r coming from.
But, I will say, that most regional airshows are organised, from my past experience, for rich people to show off their private planes, so making money, is not the aim of the game. Larger Airshows, do and can incorporate Aeroplane sales etc, so making money in those environments can be a larger aim. But not so much in Australia.
Sales are more important in USA and Europe. Insurance has killed off alot of Air-Shows in Australia unfortunately.

Retropin (Gav) has made some excellent points. I agree with 100 percent of what u have said.
It makes us look at ourselves with the view that we cant have our cake n eat it too.
As a hobbyist, I want the Expo run a certain way. As a businessman, I want to run it a different way. But, I will always side with the business version, cause thats what i do for a living. Run a business.

The costs for one company, make it impossible. The costs shared accross several businesses make it possible.

AJ said it well above, 1 person with deep pockets who has the time, or someone who can make the time, (or you would have to have 5 cool heads from the industry all working together).I wish i had a magic wand. I guess we all wish we had a magic wand for this expo problem.

I take my hat off to Last years Expo Managers for all the crap they went thru after reading what Gav (Retropin) has mentioned. 

I guess there are some problems you just cant fix for other people, no matter how bad u want it..

[ajlaird]

To me the only problem with the auction last year was that the Expo was advertised as continuing past it when in reality it was all over once the auction ended (apart form helping people take pins away).

It was understandable that the Expo had to be funded somehow, so an auction seemed a reasonable way to do it. However, the auction did not attract enough buyers willing to fight over machines and only a handful of machines went for top dollar, so I get why they lost money.

The bottom line is someone or some group of people have to put their dollars on the line to get an Expo happening.

[Pintoxicated]

I thought the intial point of this debate was Expo has been delayed for the simple fact that it was too expensive to get up and running.  Of course retailers are going to make money, my point is that the organisers probably won't.  One location wanted $30k up front to stage Expo.  You can't tell me that an ORGANISER is going to outlay that amount of money before a ticket is sold for a pinball expo.  Is the organiser going to get all the retailers there when he has to ask big bucks for a stall?  I doubt it.  Perhaps ask Mark what it would cost to man a stall at Expo for four days - hire a truck, load it up full of machines and parts, get it to Sydney, set up the stall....there's at least two days, four days at Expo for which you would need several staff, travel allowance i.e. food, drink, accomodation and another day or two back, then factor in time lost whilst the staff are at expo and not repairing or preparing machines.  For Mark it might work out, for a small operator the likes of Greg it wouldn't be worth it.  So in the end, you don't get all of the industry there.

To compare the BIA Boat Show to a pinball expo is nonsense.  As has been mentioned we are talking about two totally different industries.  Would a pinball expo attract 100's of thousands of visitors - not a chance.  To secure space at a boat show costs $100's of thousands of dollars, especially for the size of a stand Shorty (RIP) puts together.  Most retailers do well out of it with orders but that isn't the argument. 

For those of us that did go to last years expo, did you go to look at new machines or did you for the social side of things and meet blokes you had chatted to on the forum/s - for me it was both.  $5 to get in the door, chat all day and night with a good bunch of blokes and it was a great weekend that only cost several hundred bucks with airfares and accomodation. 

We can't lose sight of the fact we are a small group of enthusiasts and any astute business man would be able to see that as an ORGANISER, at this point in time, the figures simply don't stack up to stage a top end, glitz and glamour pinball expo, which is what the guys were trying to achieve this time around.  Personally I'd be stoked with another event like last year's one and if it is the difference between the event happening and not happening, then let's have an auction, open it up to everyone to put up machines for auction (I think that is where it fell down last year), at the end of the day, I don't have to bid on anything if I don't want to, I don't even have to be there for it.

BTW, gotta applaud Retropin for telling it how it is....good post mate.  Guys like Michael & Ryan are still getting shit canned but still no-one has stepped up to the plate to help as you said.

[Caveoftreasures]

You make some great points. Re the boat show part, I was comparing how it was run, not how many attend.

The problem to start with, is $5 entry fee is crazy. How about $25 entry fee. Isnt that areasonable gate price for a professional expo, say with ALL Industry people attending for argument sake. Cheap to have a great time all day and into the night for a lousy $25.

1000 visitors at $25 and u r starting to cover costs etc. 25 grand raised off the gate. An expo will never ever happen again at $5 gate entry. The organisers losing money last year proves that point. The gate price must be raised. If anyone says $25 is too expensive, well, they obviously arent serious about holding/attending a Expo.
Whats the price to go to the movies. $25 gets ya a ticket n popcorn, maybe a icecream. Thats a bit of fun for 2 hours tops. Therefore, a big day out at a Pinball Expo for example has to be worth $25 gate entry for a show/hobby/interest you love.Its only once a year. $25 is very reasonable for a whole day or two.

Anyway, we would all like to see something happen. And its good we are all passionate about debating the topic.

Its that passion which will end up having/getting another Expo over the line and happen one day. 

[ajlaird]

My point is that an Expo could still happen, even if it was just on a similar scale to last year, if a highly motivated and cashed-up organiser did step forward.

I don't see it happening from a dealer at this point in the year due to the investment in effort and time that would be required.

Now, the computer swap meet model works well in Melbourne where you get lots of people in cheaply in order to sell them stuff - and the stall-holders no doubt foot a large portion of the bill. For a Pinball Expo you would have less floor space for stalls so you would need to up the entrance fee to something reasonable (eg $20 individual, $30 family ticket), but my guess is it would still be workable. If you combined that with a minimal commission from stuff sold off the floor, then you could break even. You may not be able to afford to advertise so you would need to work hard to get free publicity. I think you would have to see machines on the floor for immediate sale with replacement machines waiting in the wings for it to work, though.

Looks like Cavey beat me to some of my points!

[pinnies4me]

I often do work for a company that relied on setting up stands as major income at several shows here in Brisbane including the motor show. 2 years back the work dropped off dramatically due to the high costs of having a stall at these venues. People just werent prepared to pay the $$$'s
 I too have had a stall at a sign show.. the costs involved were huge and no we did not beak even.. we lost money. Did we create awareness?? Well yes of course. Did we do it again? No.

Pinball Expo is ( was) a very different affair. My stall last year was cheap, but add flights and hotels and it cost me over $2000 to present myself. No i did not make money there or in the year following.

Major criticism of last years expo was the auction. Michael tried to NOT have this.. it was obviously a major sticking point. Did last year break even? ..NO. Both Michael and Ryan LOST money.

So the community cries no auction. Michael listens and tries to set this years up without it. Problem is that the upfront costs are huge.. over $10000 was spent last year on radio advertising alone.
It cant work both ways... pin prices are down... selling pins to cover costs is subject to huge criticism.. and yet these guys are expected to front costs to keep US happy... well it didnt work and so Expo is off for this year.

A few commercial dealers wanted to sell pins last year... did they want to contribute to costs.. NO. They wanted a free platform to sell their wares.
Couple that with the bitching that goes on... dealers hating each other.. forums against each other...  a group of people conspiring to ruin last year ( yes it happened) by threatening to auction off pins outside the venue... these people didnt want it to work, but it did.. at a loss.
Mark C is right.. if he attends then others wont... if WG attends then NO ONE else will. And so on and so on
The pinball community is NOT united in its hobby.. its divided many times.

Expo 2010 is off.. i think this is very sad. I wasnt even sure i could attend and hated the thought of missing it.
basic fact is that Michael and Ryan do not have the $$'s to put upfront.. no one else has stepped up to fund it. Auction to pay for it is a big NO NO ( apparently).. so where do the funds come from?
 Not from my stall... had i paid standard price for an Expo stall, there is no way i would present myself.
I got asked time and time again last year.. do i have permission to do this.. do that etc etc etc... you cant do this.. you dont have licence. Blah Blah bloody blah
Well i could do this and that cos i wasnt selling the BG i had on the stall.. was for my own machine... in fact all i had for sale were 2 neon signs.
Well yes, now i have licence and could sell stencils etc... but i try to keep these priced low.. prices include a royalty fee that i pay. How many stencils would i have to sell at Expo just to cover the costs if it were run as a large show type affair... aint hard to work out... its not possible.
Expo was run last year as a hobbyist type affair.. low price on a stall.... low price to enter.. create awareness etc etc etc.. but fund it with an auction.
YOU.. the community did not like this funding style.. but without someone coming along with VERY deep pockets along with a much higher entry fee and stall fee i cant see how Expo can function.

Expo 2009 happened... it got slammed before and after the affair.. criticism from so many who wanted it run how THEY would like it run but are not willing to put time, energy and most importantly $$$'s where its needed.


The general community killed Expo this year.. no one else... but hey! Thats bloody pinball for you!

Terrific post Gav.

Nug and I were part of 2009 with Coconut Island, and in fact kinda grateful as it forced our hand to finish the last bits on the game to make the event. AP was the central focus for forum promotion, and outside AP was criticism and immaturity.

I agree with Caveman's point about the entry fee - Bumper has done fine with a $20.00 fee for their Faith nights for years, and I would have thought $20.00 to play all the pinball you want for a day isn't too much (as long as a "family" ticket is available). But as an Expo might be wanting to attract non-hardcore pinheads, there might need to be a balance to make the entry fee attractive, hard to be sure.

[Pintoxicated]

Totally agree with the cover charge to get in but that price must reflect - 'pay for what you get'.  As mentioned, for just myself I wouldn't worry about $20 or $25 to get in but for my wife and I and three kids........there would need to be a pretty good family ticket.  On the other side of the coin, I reckon more people probably walked through the door because of the low cover charge. 

Yeah, it would be good value compared to going to the movies, we recently took the kids to the movies and frankly we won't be going back - $70 to watch a kids movie and one of the kids got in free, I'll wait for anything else to come out on DVD next time.

Boat, car, camping and caravan shows - been to them all and they would be a great thing to aspire to but they are on a massively different level to what two guys were trying to get off the ground.  The organisers of these shows are able to charge what they like for stalls or floor space and know they will fill every spot available and they know stacks of people are going to walk through the door.  A Pinball Expo - no guarantees retailers will attend and very little idea as to how many people are going to walk through the door because it is all new.  Whoever has a crack at running one will be taking a gamble until the Expo is cemented as part of peoples calendar for the year.

Agree healthy civil debate is good - there are bound to be some good ideas come out of it. The pinball industry isn't a new one but it is relatively small here in Australia and I think that it still needs to grow.  This was the aim of last years Expo, trying to re-introduce pinball to the general public and a new generation of pinheads.  Lets face it, how many of us have kids that we can honestly say will love and maintain the machines like we do once we are gone.  If I'm lucky, one out of three of my kids might.

[Caveoftreasures]

I was actually thinking today, that a Pinball Expo piggy backed onto/with one of those "Big Boys Toys" Expo's you see every now n again might work.

That way, you could have Pinball with Cars n Jet Ski stuff, the Electronics Home Theatre big ass TV people, and maybe the motor bike Harley davidson/Jap bike section. The typical luxury "Ohhh Yehhhh I want that Show".

If ya cant beat em , join em might be an answer.