Wizard Of OZ Pinball

[pinball god]

A little off topic about delivery, but is it me or do others feel the same. The scoring units seem lame. I never thought I'd think this because whats the difference scoring one point or 10k or 1 million for something, but looking at the videos and seeing someone play for 10 minutes and see a score of 4k it feels like a half orgasm - unsatisfying and not worth the effort.

Like I said I didn't think it would effect me like that but it des. Its all electronic, do you think they'll change it in a later software update or do you think its not important?

Scoring has been working its way up. Right now a "good" but not exceptional game is scoring at about 500,000 points, and the eventual goal as I understand it is for 1 million to be a very good game. So... exaggerating a 10 minute game by saying it scores 4k points is like saying you like getting 1 trillion points on AFM in those same 10 minutes.

Well, I am out of this

After being told that "your machine is being built, shipping in two weeks" four times , I have decided that this game is not go me and have asked for my money back

Out of curiosity, when did you order (ie. day 2, day 20, March...)?

Sorry my bad just reviewed the video 100k in 7min 13sec with a little talking. Still I don't know why its bothering me.

[Pop Bumper Pete]

The' first to pay, first to play' became the issue

But I have had major reservations for a few months

Will Bumper cover the warranty on games sold directly by Jack?
This was never answered

But the bigger one was the LED's, they cannot be swapped out by the home hobbyist.
If a LED was to burn out, the circuit board had to be returned to base (probably at the buyers expense)

Then there was the BS
The machines will only ship when the code is 100% finished
Nobody will have to pay for game #2 before they recieve their WOZ
Games will ship Dec 2011
Make that December 2012
March 2013
End of April
Building them now, shipping in 2 weeks (air)
Building them now, shipping in 2 weeks  (air)
Building them now, expect to ship in a week (not doing air, via sea)
We think we might have sent some, but not yours. We might be sending more in 2 weeks, but we are not certain

[Sunfox]

Sorry my bad just reviewed the video 100k in 7min 13sec with a little talking. Still I don't know why its bothering me.

Sounds like you're watching the Full Tilt Ice Cream v1.14 video. :-)

If you go back a bit further to a recent video by Joe Mamma, he has a 10 minute game on v1.12 and scores 200k points.

[Slash]

I've actually wondered if this whole thing has now caused him cash flow problems. I mean he has obviously had overheads to pay for much much longer than he anticipated based on original estimates of completion dates. I'm guessing by now he originally figured he would be well into the Hobbit etc with more instalments payments coming from that.  But trying to stretch the original Oz money out for 1-2 years more than originally anticipated could be smashing him.

I looked at his 24 hour sale recently on Invisglass that was then extended for 5 days or whatever it was and cynically thought it was a quick grab for some cash flow. Nothing wrong with that coz as a business you gotta do whatever you can to survive, but again it was a sign to me that he could be feeling the pinch.

Same again with the trickle of games. Now this is pure speculation on my part as I don't know exactly how the payments collected by distributors work, but if they don't transfer part or all of the balance due on the games to JJP until they ship, perhaps he can't afford to crank out 30 or 40 games per week. He needs to trickle them out, collect the balance of money due on those games to pay for finishing the the next handful, then send those out collect some more $$'s and so on.  It might explain why distributors could get some games ahead of people who bought earlier direct from JJP. People who bought direct are fully paid up, perhaps some distributors are not?

Anyhow just some uninformed speculation on my part.  Seems like there are still technical issues he's trying to fix too.

[Caveoftreasures]

If it was me, I would hang in there just for the hell of it. I mean, u (anyone who ordered a long time ago) have waited this long, why not a bit longer.....

cause u might then spend the next 3 yrs wondering what it would have been like to have the dam thing in your loungeroom, then might not be able to get a LE model.............

OR u wait n see just how many end up on the 2nd hand market quickly in Australia if people who bought don't like the game n pick up a bargain in 12 months time (accepting they are here in a month oe two) and that after 12 months of ownership some might get bored...something tells me the WOZ stock of parts at JJP will be massively overstocked because he expected to sell a lot more std models n has not because the LE model didn't get out quick enough to boost the hype n sell the std models....u might see std WOZ models or even hybrid premium WOZ stuff coming out of JJP at very very cheap prices this next 12 to 24 months if they stay in business....I don't liker to use the word liquidation, but something has to change or who knows if Hobbit will ever make the light of day or even be the last machine ever built by JJP.

It all feels n looks like a Pinball 2000 job..... First model Pin2000 to save the company n get things going, 2nd Pin2000 model to keep the company going but in the end the figures just couldnt keep the place alive... I see a very big comparison here...Hope I am wrong...

but honestly, as long as Gary Stern keeps doing what he and his people are doing, we still have a good pinball industry going. Without Stern, we start talking extinction and dinosaurs which will all become part of the kids tours at all local museums which would be a real shame n end to a 100 yr old industry.

Another 3 or 4 months, and the dust will settle n lets see if JJP can pull themselves out of the shit literally n get some credibility back. I hope so. I am always trying to be a optimist if at all possible.

Wouldn't mind hearing how n if Pete gets his money back or if a machine magically turns up by airmail to keep him happy.....interesting few weeks ahead...

[skywalker]

Well said bud, hope all turns out ok also, really feel for the guys that have had PO for 1-2 years, back to  for me 

[Cow Corner]

This is proof why there should be NO money paid upfront until the game is produced and ready for sale.
If JJP or any other pinball manufacturer is so confident that the product they have will sell put the money where the mouth is and produce!
Taking $$$ off customers and making them wait and wait for the finished product is a piss poor business model and should not be encouraged.

Yeh but problem is that punters are STILL handing over $$$'s for machines unseen and even unspecified as to any layout or features... HOBBIT rumoured over 1000 presales at $1000 deposit... that's a cool million in the bank for something that still hasn't gone past concept stage.

Only in pinball are people so frivolous with their hard earned cash

Yes mate this is the big problem!
We should determine the market but we should do it with caution.
Vote with your wallet, or the hype of a new title will always win out...make it work for you/us and don't fall for the bs!
Produce and then we will buy..otherwise....sod off!

[tonyt]

Must be a tough decision Pete, but completely understand your position.

Unfortunately whilst he has customers that keep throwing money at him for his next game (with some paying in full), then nothing will change.

I met Jack in the USA in 2011 and did not get a good vibe back then. He promised to send me a t-shirt back then and I never received it.

[Homepin]

Produce and then we will buy..otherwise....sod off!

This is the problem. Anyone who has $2~3M to design, setup & manufacture a pinball machine is either going to have to charge $12K for it or they may as well leave the money in the bank. It will never happen in our lifetimes. A different financing model is required and Jack has tried one of them.

The following is ALL my opinion only..........

Full marks to Jack for achieving what he has - I think the wheels fell off because he was conned by some "computer geniuses" as I firmly believe this IS NOT the way to go with a pinball machine. Fixing a WOZ/Hobbit (whatever) will be a real pain - for one thing, it takes a WMS machine 12 seconds from power on to "ready to play" - a WOZ takes MORE THAN 3 minutes!

Try changing a coil or soldering a switch - wait 3 mins, do some more work, wait 3 minutes etc etc etc - not for me......I would smash it after the first few power ups.

Had he spent the extra time and effort developing a "proper" boardset things might be a lot different.

I have had emails back & forth with Jack and he is well aware of my opinions (he contacted me).

[pinnies4me]

I do tend to agree with Mike. I was just thinking about how quick Capcom is to boot compared to WMS - maybe three or four seconds to WMS 12 - and even that is noticeable - imagine a three minute wait!! With my attention span I'd be 2 minutes 50 into a game of AFM by then........

[Sunfox]

This is the problem. Anyone who has $2~3M to design, setup & manufacture a pinball machine is either going to have to charge $12K for it or they may as well leave the money in the bank. It will never happen in our lifetimes. A different financing model is required and Jack has tried one of them.

The following is ALL my opinion only..........

Full marks to Jack for achieving what he has - I think the wheels fell off because he was conned by some "computer geniuses" as I firmly believe this IS NOT the way to go with a pinball machine. Fixing a WOZ/Hobbit (whatever) will be a real pain - for one thing, it takes a WMS machine 12 seconds from power on to "ready to play" - a WOZ takes MORE THAN 3 minutes!

Try changing a coil or soldering a switch - wait 3 mins, do some more work, wait 3 minutes etc etc etc - not for me......I would smash it after the first few power ups.

Had he spent the extra time and effort developing a "proper" boardset things might be a lot different.

I have had emails back & forth with Jack and he is well aware of my opinions (he contacted me).

Dude, it takes 25 seconds. That's like 13% of your "more than 3 minutes".

Oh yeah, some proof:

Click of power switch at 0:04. Playfield light sweep patterns at 0:29 seconds.

Instead of taking factually flawed swipes at WOZ (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're too lazy to look this up, vs. deliberately lying to scare customers of your competition)... don't you have your own pinball design to be concentrating on?

[Homepin]

Dude, it takes 25 seconds. That's like 13% of your "more than 3 minutes".

Oh yeah, some proof:

Click of power switch at 0:04. Playfield light sweep patterns at 0:29 seconds.

Instead of taking factually flawed swipes at WOZ (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're too lazy to look this up, vs. deliberately lying to scare customers of your competition)... don't you have your own pinball design to be concentrating on?

I was quoting from an owner of a WOZ who told me "more than 3 minutes" - I am NOT knocking Jack, far from it - re-read my post. I have to assume by your arrogant reply that possibly you are one of Jacks "computer genuises"??

I am also not judging - I don't have to, as time will reveal all.

Exactly WHAT is the holdup in the factory if it isn't the PC as you continue to wail as loud as you can? Come clean and tell your customers exactly WHAT is the holdup in the production?

You won't - because it *is* the PC........that's my take until you come clean with a more plausible reason.

You have to understand that in the complete absense of ANY reason for the delays, people will start to look for answers themselves. Please prove my theory wrong.

[Pinchroma]

The' first to pay, first to play' became the issue

But I have had major reservations for a few months

Will Bumper cover the warranty on games sold directly by Jack?
This was never answered

But the bigger one was the LED's, they cannot be swapped out by the home hobbyist.
If a LED was to burn out, the circuit board had to be returned to base (probably at the buyers expense)

Then there was the BS
The machines will only ship when the code is 100% finished
Nobody will have to pay for game #2 before they recieve their WOZ
Games will ship Dec 2011
Make that December 2012
March 2013
End of April
Building them now, shipping in 2 weeks (air)
Building them now, shipping in 2 weeks  (air)
Building them now, expect to ship in a week (not doing air, via sea)
We think we might have sent some, but not yours. We might be sending more in 2 weeks, but we are not certain

Who told you a home user can't swap an LED?  Jesus so much misinformation.  Contact me directly for facts

[Homepin]

Who told you a home user can't swap an LED?  Jesus so much misinformation.  Contact me directly for facts

Why not post it all here so everyone can see it?

If Jack was a bit more honest and came forward with the truth about delays there would be a lot less "misinformation" and conjecture.

So we have two JJP "fan bois" on this thread in as many minutes - quick to defend but slow with facts!

[Pinchroma]

Produce and then we will buy..otherwise....sod off!

This is the problem. Anyone who has $2~3M to design, setup & manufacture a pinball machine is either going to have to charge $12K for it or they may as well leave the money in the bank. It will never happen in our lifetimes. A different financing model is required and Jack has tried one of them.

The following is ALL my opinion only..........

Full marks to Jack for achieving what he has - I think the wheels fell off because he was conned by some "computer geniuses" as I firmly believe this IS NOT the way to go with a pinball machine. Fixing a WOZ/Hobbit (whatever) will be a real pain - for one thing, it takes a WMS machine 12 seconds from power on to "ready to play" - a WOZ takes MORE THAN 3 minutes!

Try changing a coil or soldering a switch - wait 3 mins, do some more work, wait 3 minutes etc etc etc - not for me......I would smash it after the first few power ups.

Had he spent the extra time and effort developing a "proper" boardset things might be a lot different.

I have had emails back & forth with Jack and he is well aware of my opinions (he contacted me).

Hey dickbag.  I have those emails too and you are full of shit.  You were f**kin lambasted on pinside for being full of shit and you are here too.    Woz takes 7 seconds to boot.  I know because I wrote the OS.  

For anyone who believes this lying dinosaur here is the video of it booting:

I'm sorry you don't have the capability to build something with technology not available In a 1960's television but some of us have skills to build based on modern platforms.

You got technologically schooled on other forums by me and many others, did you think we would let you just spew your shit here too?


I'd be careful, your "opinions" are libelous.