The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => Restorations => Topic started by: Strangeways on October 25, 2011, 11:49:54 PM
-
As part of the WCS 94 Restoration, I'm thinking of repainting the coin toss assembly. These get really worn, and I sent mine off to MartyJ to have then TIG welded. We spoke about the factory part and agreed that it was quite possibly painted, rather than dipped. During the repair, Marty scraped away some of the GOLD finish, and it came off easily, with the normal metal finish underneath.
So one idea is to repaint the assembly GOLD and then clearcoating it. I have read stories on RGP where the gold paint eventually peels off and chips of the paint end up on the playfield etc..
The other idea is to polish it - which could be an option as I've already buffed the top section and it looks very good.
I'm after opinion - so if anyone has had success / failures with painting metal gold, I'd like to hear from you ? If anyone would like to post their :2cents: , you are more than welcome !
(http://www.aussiepinball.com/strangeways/restores/WCS94/WCS94%20463.JPG)
(http://www.aussiepinball.com/strangeways/restores/WCS94/WCS94%20464.JPG)
<..>
-
Nino, I took some parts to a professional plating company and wanted them done gold. I discussed every option available, and was told that in most cases, most metals are copper plated to get the gold look, the buffed, then clearcoated etc. They turn out "gold" like gold bars, not copper looking at all.
The bottom line was, that the only real way to get a real gold look finish was to plate with real gold which is just too expensive and not $$ realistic. The fellow who has been plating for many many years and reckons the best finish to use so u get many years of hard wearing with no flaking was to "annodise in gold". The finish wasnt as bling as the "copper plating" plus clearcoat, but its the best for "hard wearing, long term durability".
It gets down to "annodise" or get it "copper plated" then have it clearcoated, but it will look crappy after a few years IF the metal is used or touched during its normal usage. If its never touched or used, then copper plating with buffing plus clearcoat will stay perfect forever, if out of the weather.
The Plating company gave me the full 30 minute explanation so I could ultimately make the right decision. "Annodising" for working parts, or "copper plating, plus buff, plus clearcoat" for non working parts. U could always buff what u have, then clearcoat to stop degradation of the current gold finish. ^^^ ^^^ Hope it helps.
-
Not relavant to your question nino but Here is some interesting information on nickel plating nino,if you decide to go that way according to the article the desired finish can be obtained with using 2-3 finishes overlapping.i doubt a painted finish will hold up with the constant ball wear.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=j6yitnDWd7IC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=what+plating+is+used+for+trophys&source=bl&ots=mebw0RwuB_&sig=UrSorPjnrtYORtE7UXe_qmN0xJI&hl=en&ei=3yCnTp3GBOOwiQe5gpSjDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
-
Be interested in what you decide to do. I have some wire ramps that I want to have redone, but can't decide on the plating method.
-
Not relavant to your question nino but Here is some interesting information on nickel plating nino,if you decide to go that way according to the article the desired finish can be obtained with using 2-3 finishes overlapping.i doubt a painted finish will hold up with the constant ball wear.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=j6yitnDWd7IC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=what+plating+is+used+for+trophys&source=bl&ots=mebw0RwuB_&sig=UrSorPjnrtYORtE7UXe_qmN0xJI&hl=en&ei=3yCnTp3GBOOwiQe5gpSjDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
I have a Nickel plating bath in my garage, but it won't be able to successfully plate a part this size. I would have to take to a Business that does the plating for me. But I'm curious as to why I should have to plate it - as the finish looks like it was originally painted.
-
its possible that its a 2 pac gold or maybe even a monokan base paint.. not sure if you can get a powder coat gold
-
Nino,
I've just fired an email off to Jpop to see if he knows what the factory finish was.
The finish seems so thin (ie can rub through with a scotch brite pad very easily) I'd be surprised if it was plated, but you never know.
Worst case we should be able to source some 2k gold and clear coat it (again in 2k). Would not be a cheap option, however I would be reasonably confident it should stand up OK.
-
Not relavant to your question nino but Here is some interesting information on nickel plating nino,if you decide to go that way according to the article the desired finish can be obtained with using 2-3 finishes overlapping.i doubt a painted finish will hold up with the constant ball wear.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=j6yitnDWd7IC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=what+plating+is+used+for+trophys&source=bl&ots=mebw0RwuB_&sig=UrSorPjnrtYORtE7UXe_qmN0xJI&hl=en&ei=3yCnTp3GBOOwiQe5gpSjDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
I have a Nickel plating bath in my garage, but it won't be able to successfully plate a part this size. I would have to take to a Business that does the plating for me. But I'm curious as to why I should have to plate it - as the finish looks like it was originally painted.
Bit hard for me to tell from the photo whether it's plated or not,but from the photo it looks a similar finish to a couple of greyhound trophy's i have seen,and i have been reading up on the different plate techniques used for trophy's as the finishes on some of the trophys i have would look great on a pinball.sorry to post in your thread mate.
-
Nino,
I've just fired an email off to Jpop to see if he knows what the factory finish was.
The finish seems so thin (ie can rub through with a scotch brite pad very easily) I'd be surprised if it was plated, but you never know.
Worst case we should be able to source some 2k gold and clear coat it (again in 2k). Would not be a cheap option, however I would be reasonably confident it should stand up OK.
I think this might be worth exploring Marty. Could also come in handy for habittrails and ramps. Looking forward to his reply !
Not relavant to your question nino but Here is some interesting information on nickel plating nino,if you decide to go that way according to the article the desired finish can be obtained with using 2-3 finishes overlapping.i doubt a painted finish will hold up with the constant ball wear.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=j6yitnDWd7IC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=what+plating+is+used+for+trophys&source=bl&ots=mebw0RwuB_&sig=UrSorPjnrtYORtE7UXe_qmN0xJI&hl=en&ei=3yCnTp3GBOOwiQe5gpSjDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
I have a Nickel plating bath in my garage, but it won't be able to successfully plate a part this size. I would have to take to a Business that does the plating for me. But I'm curious as to why I should have to plate it - as the finish looks like it was originally painted.
Bit hard for me to tell from the photo whether it's plated or not,but from the photo it looks a similar finish to a couple of greyhound trophy's i have seen,and i have been reading up on the different plate techniques used for trophy's as the finishes on some of the trophys i have would look great on a pinball.sorry to post in your thread mate.
No apologies mate ! I'm encouraging all options - I appreciate your ideas !
-
Check these guys out
http://www.precisionplating.com.au/plating/finishes/
-
ball wire forms etc were always chromed for a reason. chroming something leaves a very very hard wearing finish that no other plating finish can match.
i investigated doing ball wire forms in gold and nothing currently leaves the finish hard enough compared to chrome to even have a chance of lasting.
some companies chrome finish parts first, then paint over the chrome in gold paint, then clearcoat. gold end results are few n far between for hard wearing finishs.
-
What I did with mine was buff the crappy gold coat off, it's chrome under it and looks better, I did the same to the ramp, trying to paint it would do the same thing peel, I'm going to re chrome my coin toss at some point as its not perfect, but looks allot better than it did with the crapy gold, it is a playing over chrome, if you rechrome it would look better than trying to get a gold look as its a brass plating it will dull down again
-
Plus it is illuminated by yellow lights so if it's chrome under those lights it looks gold anyways
-
Have you looked into cad plating? I had some large bits done many years back that had a golden (yellow) finish that would have buffed up to a similar finish.
Bright Nickel plating can also have a yellow finish.
I buffed my WCS pieces up an I am sure they were definately plated not painted but I am unsure what technique was used, I suspect cad !@#
There are also products such as this:
but I am unsure how they would go with a ball rubbing against them over and over. I would go for plating and only use paint as a last resort the plating is much harder and better suited for the application :2cents:
-
But all this begs the question as to why a PF that is painted and then cleared holds up well, but for some reason its not applicable for a ramp?
2 pac clear is bloody hard wearing stuff.. so is 1K for that
-
I would be confident if I painted the ramp in 2k and cleared it would hold up no probs.
The crap in a can no chance
-
The ramps cop a fair hiding on wcs. The ball is fired up ramp pretty fast and hard. It wouldn't take long to chip up 2k
-
But all this begs the question as to why a PF that is painted and then cleared holds up well, but for some reason its not applicable for a ramp?
2 pac clear is bloody hard wearing stuff.. so is 1K for that
because wood is more poorous than metal, the bond on the play field is better than it would be over clearing over a smooth chrome surface.
i think plating is the only answer in this case. the original was just done poorly.
plating would also be the cheapest option also, and the best.
-
On the subject if any one is after a World Cup Soccor 94 gold flavoured wire ramp 12-7185.2, I have a NOS. PM me if after one at a reasonable price.
-
On the subject if any one is after a World Cup Soccor 94 gold flavoured wire ramp 12-7185.2, I have a NOS. PM me if after one at a reasonable price.
if its good ill be interested, if its not already taken
-
You have got dibs, the ramp is like this one and is mint. Will have a look tomorrow to confirm quality.
-
But all this begs the question as to why a PF that is painted and then cleared holds up well, but for some reason its not applicable for a ramp?
2 pac clear is bloody hard wearing stuff.. so is 1K for that
because wood is more poorous than metal, the bond on the play field is better than it would be over clearing over a smooth chrome surface.
i think plating is the only answer in this case. the original was just done poorly.
plating would also be the cheapest option also, and the best.
Any surface that is to be painted has to be roughed anyway by scratching it plus 2K primer is an etch primer that bites into the surface.. healthy coat of this.. then 2K then 2K clear, id be willing to say would hold up.
Lets be honest.. the original gold coating doesnt hold up forever does it or we wouldnt be having this discussion
-
But all this begs the question as to why a PF that is painted and then cleared holds up well, but for some reason its not applicable for a ramp?
2 pac clear is bloody hard wearing stuff.. so is 1K for that
because wood is more poorous than metal, the bond on the play field is better than it would be over clearing over a smooth chrome surface.
i think plating is the only answer in this case. the original was just done poorly.
plating would also be the cheapest option also, and the best.
Any surface that is to be painted has to be roughed anyway by scratching it plus 2K primer is an etch primer that bites into the surface.. healthy coat of this.. then 2K then 2K clear, id be willing to say would hold up.
Lets be honest.. the original gold coating doesnt hold up forever does it or we wouldnt be having this discussion
your right, but the gold is done very poorly, if it was done right it should never come off, difference between plating and painting the plating bonds on a molecular level rather than just finding groves in the metal to bond too like paint does, whilst i would say 2k could do ok on some parts of the ramp, places i would be concerned about is where the ball is shot up and caught in the ramp and then runs down, it does get shot up with a fair bit of force.enough to shake the screws out i have found, i guess then the option would be not paint the inside where the ball shoots up on the ramp? but even still electroplating is cheap as chips, it wouldn't cost more than $30 to replate those parts, esp the coin toss essay, its no bigger than a pair of shock tower ends on ford, which cost me $15 to get chromed, and the prep in painting it would be allot of work imo for not as long lasting. it is a shame they plated them so poorly, its almost like it was an afterthought
-
You have got dibs, the ramp is like this one and is mint. Will have a look tomorrow to confirm quality.
awesome mate, that should be great, although the chrome looks good without the gold, i did have to do a few tack welds in a few places on my ramp as it had broken in one or two places, not that noticeable but a new one is better again, cheers
-
I have had a number of pieces genuine gold plated in a variety of finishes (brushed to high polished) and if you are using genuine 23ct gold to plate (the rich lustre gold) it will not be cheap (you are paying for the gold as a "precious metal").
Whilst ramps and other small surface area pieces are not too costly, when it comes to pieces such as lockdown bars, siderails (and in your case the WCS coin toss assembly) you will find that due to the surface area that needs to be plated it could become an expensive exercise (if using genuine gold).
Having said that once plated the pieces can then be coated in a 2pac clearcoat (or e-coat as my plater calls it) for protection and as the electroplater I use assures me, that they will be "good for years" even with a metal ball/sweaty hands running over them.
Some pics to give you an idea of final results:
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll153/pinball1974/Gold%20plating%20work%20-%20various%20machines/100_0215.jpg)
Closeup of the high polished finish:
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll153/pinball1974/Indiana%20Jones%20restoration/100_0139.jpg)
Anything can be gold plated even a piece of resin.
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll153/pinball1974/Indiana%20Jones%20restoration/100_0141.jpg)
-
Man that gold plating looks sexy as. I've always been curious how real gold Plating holds up to pinball abuse
-
wow, that would certainly add some value to your machine, thats very cool
-
That gold plating looks awesome,the real deal,You can also have a much cheaper gold look apparently what the platers do is flash the plating with chromium.Do the back-yard nickel baths use different chems or do they just plate nickel.
-
That gold plating looks awesome,the real deal,You can also have a much cheaper gold look apparently what the platers do is flash the plating with chromium.Do the back-yard nickel baths use different chems or do they just plate nickel.
My Nickel and plating kit are only suitable for small baths. This part is just too big.
I think "gold plating" is an interesting idea, I could do the habittrail at the same time. How expensive is it ?
-
That gold plating looks awesome,the real deal,You can also have a much cheaper gold look apparently what the platers do is flash the plating with chromium.Do the back-yard nickel baths use different chems or do they just plate nickel.
Found the answer to my own question http://www.caswellplating.com.au/store/store.php/products/yellow-chromate-concentrate---cadmium-look
-
That gold plating looks awesome,the real deal,You can also have a much cheaper gold look apparently what the platers do is flash the plating with chromium.Do the back-yard nickel baths use different chems or do they just plate nickel.
My Nickel and plating kit are only suitable for small baths. This part is just too big.
I think "gold plating" is an interesting idea, I could do the habittrail at the same time. How expensive is it ?
using 22ct gold would probably be expensive.
-
Those gold parts look amazing ()
-
http://www.prestonplate.com.au/
Literally 5 minutes from my place. I'm going to take the coin toss assembly and the habitrail to these guys for a quote.
-
Looks like some quality work there, will be handy for you, being so close, if it works out cheap enough for future restorations
-
http://www.prestonplate.com.au/
Literally 5 minutes from my place. I'm going to take the coin toss assembly and the habitrail to these guys for a quote.
Nino, make sure they dont chrome the parts then paint over with gold paint then clearcoat. It looks amnazing but wears off real easy. Thats what most places do.
You will find out real quick that "gold" finishing is alot more painfull and complex than any other dam finish.
I am looking forward to see what these guys suggest. Gold is always more expensive because hardly anyone gets things done in gold, unlike chrome which lasts forever.
Dont forget before and after photos please. ^^^
-
http://www.prestonplate.com.au/
Literally 5 minutes from my place. I'm going to take the coin toss assembly and the habitrail to these guys for a quote.
Nino, make sure they dont chrome the parts then paint over with gold paint then clearcoat. It looks amnazing but wears off real easy. Thats what most places do.
You will find out real quick that "gold" finishing is alot more painfull and complex than any other dam finish.
I am looking forward to see what these guys suggest. Gold is always more expensive because hardly anyone gets things done in gold, unlike chrome which lasts forever.
Dont forget before and after photos please. ^^^
Thanks for the tip, Brett. I'm hoping they are open tomorrow or Monday. I'll ask about "real" gold plating. The buyer has requested this game to be "collector's quality". No expense will be spared ^^^
-
I'll ask about "real" gold plating. The buyer has requested this game to be "collector's quality". No expense will be spared
Thats one lucky guy buying your game.
-
real gold is just crazy with gold currently sitting around $1700 per ounce. It will be far too expensive. ^&^
see if the copper plating can be done so it looks gold. there are so many ways it can be done. gold annodising just may be the answer. choices. choices. choices. have fun with it. a new finish is like a new toy. ^^^
-
OK,
JPOP has very kindly replied to my email and the answer is that the gold finish on WCS94 (at least) is Zinc-Dichromate.
So straight from the designers mouth (well keyboard).
-
OK,
JPOP has very kindly replied to my email and the answer is that the gold finish on WCS94 (at least) is Zinc-Dichromate.
So straight from the designers mouth (well keyboard).
Thanks Marty, I'll quote that to the metal plater.
-
Interesting. I've spoken to a few local platers and they have suggested either gold or brass plating. Zinc Dichromate is more of a "dull" finish that is used for nuts and bolts. Maybe this is what the finish originally was ? So I'm told, the finish is not as polished as gold or brass, but it will have a "rainbow" effect through the surface.
I'm dropping into Preston Platers this week to see what I can learn about it and then I'll look at my options. Seems they already do work for pinball enthusiasts !
-
The Coin Toss assembly was not originally finished in Zinc Dichromate, as John Pop has suggested (well mine wasn't). I did see the actual finish on some nuts and bolts and it is a dull finish with a rainbow effect when held up in the light. The finish on the coil toss ramp is likely nickel, then brass with a clearcoat. But no one can say that this is EXACTLY what was done. Whatever method was used - it was cheap and nasty.
I don't have any real options that are feasible. GOLD plating is too expensive as is Brass and there is no guarantee that the inside of the assembly will "take" the bath process. The brass method will cost over $100, and most places didn't seem keen.
The main ramp will be replated in a "gold finish" - obviously not real gold, but I saw some of the gold plated parts hanging in their shop and it looked amazing.
I'm still not entirely convinced, but I didn't do anything with the coin toss assembly, but the main ramp will be re-plated.
I can have both Chrome plated, but I wanted the gold finish.
-
Nino, can u take a photo of the part u want to get done gold with your hand next to it so I can see the real size of the object.
It seems up here the plating cost is apx half of what they have quoted. Is it fair to say you will have to get the coin toss part done the same plating way as the ramp to keep it looking the same, IF u were to do it ? What specific method are u doing the ramp finish in ?
-
The Coin Toss assembly was not originally finished in Zinc Dichromate, as John Pop has suggested (well mine wasn't). I did see the actual finish on some nuts and bolts and it is a dull finish with a rainbow effect when held up in the light. The finish on the coil toss ramp is likely nickel, then brass with a clearcoat. But no one can say that this is EXACTLY what was done. Whatever method was used - it was cheap and nasty.
I don't have any real options that are feasible. GOLD plating is too expensive as is Brass and there is no guarantee that the inside of the assembly will "take" the bath process. The brass method will cost over $100, and most places didn't seem keen.
The main ramp will be replated in a "gold finish" - obviously not real gold, but I saw some of the gold plated parts hanging in their shop and it looked amazing.
I'm still not entirely convinced, but I didn't do anything with the coin toss assembly, but the main ramp will be re-plated.
I can have both Chrome plated, but I wanted the gold finish.
If you don't mind doing a bit more running around, these guys in Melb do Gold Plating
http://www.masterelectroplating.com.au/
Not sure where they are in relation to you, but I do know they will gold plate ramps, assemblies etc with a quick turnaround time of about a week (a friend in Melb has had pinball ramps gold plated with them)
As said in my earlier post a couple of pages back, if you are only gold plating a wire ramp (smaller surface area) it should be a reasonable* price, but once you get into large surface area items like the coin toss assembly is when the price will add up.
*reasonable being a relative term.
-
that sucks about the gold plating, hopefully you can find another option. but if you had to get the coin toss chromed which i am going to do on mine. i dont think it would look out of place, it would look really good imo
-
that sucks about the gold plating, hopefully you can find another option. but if you had to get the coin toss chromed which i am going to do on mine. i dont think it would look out of place, it would look really good imo
It is going to cost $100 for the coin toss assembly, and there is no guarantee that the inside of the assy will "take" the plating in a uniform finish. The only viable option is to chrome plate the assembly - which would work well and cost $30.
Unless another option pops up - I'm going to polish the coin toss assembly and leave it "As is". MartyJ has TIG repaired the assy - so it will work 100%.
The gold ramp should be ready on Wednesday for pickup. I will post pictures.
-
Michael Chestnut in the states has done plating for me and numerous other collectors out there.
He does parts in brass - not gold - and due to the volume he does, he has many parts ready for 'exchange' - you send in your 'core' part, and he returns a replated part with a bill.
Thinking I may have him brass my coin toss and wireforms when I get to that point. WCS is a great game.
I bought a NOS gold plated wireform off eBay years ago, and it was damaged in shipping. Too bad, as I got a great deal on it!
-
Michael Chestnut in the states has done plating for me and numerous other collectors out there.
He does parts in brass - not gold - and due to the volume he does, he has many parts ready for 'exchange' - you send in your 'core' part, and he returns a replated part with a bill.
Thinking I may have him brass my coin toss and wireforms when I get to that point. WCS is a great game.
I bought a NOS gold plated wireform off eBay years ago, and it was damaged in shipping. Too bad, as I got a great deal on it!
Greetings John !
I ended up having the wire ramp nickel plated and then gold plated. It is well worth the extra expense. I will post pictures tonight. The coin toss assembly was going to cost around $100 to gold plate, and the center section might not turn out well. I was advised that the coin toss area should be done in brass. In the end, I polished mine, and it looks fantastic.
-
Finally have pictures of the ramp. It was initially nickel plated and then GOLD plated. It looks AMAZING.
All I have to do not is a clearcoat over the GOLD and it can be fitted to the game. The clearcoat is optional, but the place that plated the ramp suggested that I take this extra step.
Here are some pictures of the ramp
(http://www.aussiepinball.com/strangeways/restores/WCS94/WCS94%20474.JPG)
(http://www.aussiepinball.com/strangeways/restores/WCS94/WCS94%20480.JPG)
I think the best result for the coin toss assembly is definitely BRASS. Gold is just too expensive. I ended up polishing the coin toss assy and it came up REALLY well !
(http://www.aussiepinball.com/strangeways/restores/WCS94/WCS94%20465.JPG)
I'm pleased with the results ^^^
-
That ramp looks great Nino its so important as its a main show point of the game i reckon well done.
Peter
-
It sure does look nice ()