Medieval Madness Fakes

[Strangeways]

MM is a cool game but is not really worth the price. I'd probably wait until the MMR is released and see what it does to original MM's pricing.

Also, be aware that there are MMRF (Medieval Madness Remake Fakes) that are not original MM's, but lesser titles stripped and converted (poorly). These are NOT "High End Restorations".

P.S. I have no problem with a hobbyist converting a game for personal use, but not a reseller without disclosing that it is not original.

[pinnies4me]

Also, be aware that there are MMRF (Medieval Madness Remake Fakes) that are not original MM's, but lesser titles stripped and converted (poorly). These are NOT "High End Restorations".

Geez, this opens a can of worms - is doing this for your own use OK?

What happens if you sell the game - do you need to tell the buyer that you built it from parts?

Is it any different to a game that came off the Williams assembly line given that high end restores often leave little of the original game? New playfield, repro ramps and toys, new cabinet and decals, maybe even a new board here or there - what's left of the original that makes the restoration still an original game? "My Grandfather's Axe" comes to mind - "I still have my Grandfather's axe - I've replaced the handle three times and the head twice!"

So - what is the "backbone" of an original game? What parts would members think need to have been retained from the original game to still consider the restored game original? Is that any different to a conversion of a NBA Fastbreak that has some boards sourced from an original MM, and/or uses "Genuine factory Reproduction" MM parts?

What about a dealer for example who makes a MM Re-fake - does a dealer need to tell the buyer it's not genuine?

[ktm450]

What about a dealer for example who makes a MM Re-fake - does a dealer need to tell the buyer it's not genuine?

They should, but I doubt they would.  I guess like all things its a case of buyer beware, do your research before handing over your cash.




I may buy a MMR to convert into a NBA fastbreak, I like a challenge and I bet there are heaps of parts available for it, they will be rare soon so they must be worth big $$$ in years to come      

[pinnies4me]

What about a dealer for example who makes a MM Re-fake - does a dealer need to tell the buyer it's not genuine?

They should, but I doubt they would.  I guess like all things its a case of buyer beware, do your research before handing over your cash.

Buyer beware doesn't cut the mustard when a company or person in business is selling. The Australian Consumer Law and state Fair Trading Acts all impose obligations, such as a prohibition against misleading or deceptive conduct - and silence can be misleading or deceptive conduct in the appropriate circumstances.

[Homepin]

I suppose it would also relate back to the sell price as well - if a "retailer" sold a copy/remake/converted MM for (say) $4500 nobody could reasonably expect that it was a genuine original MM surely?

If they sold that same machine for $10~14K then you would absolutely expect it to be an original IMO.

What about a dealer for example who makes a MM Re-fake - does a dealer need to tell the buyer it's not genuine?

They should, but I doubt they would.  I guess like all things its a case of buyer beware, do your research before handing over your cash.

Buyer beware doesn't cut the mustard when a company or person in business is selling. The Australian Consumer Law and state Fair Trading Acts all impose obligations, such as a prohibition against misleading or deceptive conduct - and silence can be misleading or deceptive conduct in the appropriate circumstances.

[MartyJ]

What about a dealer for example who makes a MM Re-fake - does a dealer need to tell the buyer it's not genuine?

They should, but I doubt they would.  I guess like all things its a case of buyer beware, do your research before handing over your cash.

Buyer beware doesn't cut the mustard when a company or person in business is selling. The Australian Consumer Law and state Fair Trading Acts all impose obligations, such as a prohibition against misleading or deceptive conduct - and silence can be misleading or deceptive conduct in the appropriate circumstances.

Definitely a slippery slope that one....   

It all comes down to what the seller, be it a 'professional dealer', reseller, backyarder etc discloses at the time of the sale.

If the seller is open and honest and sells the machine / puts on their invoice / a full description that the machine is NOT original but instead a NBA Fastbreak rebuilt into a Medieval Madness with repro parts, then there is no issue whatsoever.
If the seller does not do this and remains silent on the fact, or claims its an original MM then they may be obtaining property by deception (serious indictable offence in Victoria - similar legislation in other states).  No different to someone building an old XW falcon.  If they buy GTHO parts and call it a replica then no issues.  If they try to sell it off as an original GTHO, then falls into the same category.

Even those people building / working on the machines, if they are aware that they are going to be sold as a rebirthed machine, without the fact being disclosed to the potential seller, then guess what.....your in it too....

I did see an advert recently for a machine where serial numbers were mentioned and this should be checked.  Very valid point and absolutely correct.  Although these can be remade on modern WMS machines, its fairly obvious and again if a NBA Fastbreak has had the serial numbers / stickers removed and its now being sold as a MM, then warning flags should be raised.

[pinball god]

What would you class a funhouse that has new cab decals, new next gen translite, CPR pf, repro ramps, Mr pin face and jaw, repro plastics, repro bumper caps and replacement bumpers, new legs and coin door, new rubbers and globes and sockets, apron decals, and probably other bits?

To me its a great, fun mint looking game I always wanted. If I sold it, what do I say? You can see its not straight from a site. Anything that near nib can't be original can it and imo who cares. I do understand there are people that things like that count but I just don't get it, sorry. If someone could make my wife look like Claudia Schiff I won't knock it back for any dollars  

Also reminds me of the Creech and Cheong skit, looks, smells and tastes like dog snit, then it must be dog shit. A MM that looks, plays, feels, and sounds like a MM is good enough for me.

[robm]

Interesting discussion, and i agree with Pinball God - if it plays well i don't care too much. Now obviously i am currently building a MM from an NBAFB to keep - however if i was to sell, i would be telling any potential buyer of its origin.

I also have a query as above - What determines original.......

Once you put a LED in, its not original

New cab decals, not original - but worth more than one with a marked cabinet

I don't have a strong opinion as i just enjoy repairing and playing pinball, as long as its fun, i don't care too much!

[Strangeways]

An interesting topic that deserves it's own thread.

As soon as you change the rubbers or globes on a pinball, it is not "factory original".

My thoughts are that for a Hobbyist, there is no issue in transforming a lesser title into an MM. This is a cheaper way of owner a reasonable title that is set at an inflated price. There's a lot of work that needs to be done and I follow Robm's thread with interest.

If a business sells a re-badged MM as a "High End Restoration" and fails to disclose that it is not original, then that's a problem on both fronts.

Using the Funhouse analogy, it is and was always a Funhouse. You can trace the Serial numbers back and it was always a Funhouse. You can change almost everything, and it is still a Funhouse. You can sell it as a "Restored" Funhouse.

Using a NBA Fastbreak or Congo and converting it to an MM is not a "restoration". The serial numbers will always be Congo or NBA Fastbreak. When it is sold, it is not a "High End Restoration" or an "original" MM. As long as the business highlights that it is NOT original, I have no issue with the process. But I find it ironic that the inflated prices set by resellers for this title has created a market for the conversions. I'd be interested to know what the price is for one of these. I'd expect it would be far less than an original. That is, assuming the customer is aware it is not original.

[pinnies4me]

An interesting topic that deserves it's own thread.


Using a NBA Fastbreak or Congo and converting it to an MM is not a "restoration". The serial numbers will always be Congo or NBA Fastbreak. When it is sold, it is not a "High End Restoration" or an "original" MM. As long as the business highlights that it is NOT original, I have no issue with the process. But I find it ironic that the inflated prices set by resellers for this title has created a market for the conversions. I'd be interested to know what the price is for one of these. I'd expect it would be far less than an original. That is, assuming the customer is aware it is not original.

Agree on the own thread, this is a big issue for people who might pay top dollar for a high end MM that is in fact a fake.

I agree in relation to hobbyists doing their own - more than likely a true hobbyist would explain, and I expect the buyer would be happy if done well, plays the same, and the price reflects the situation (how much, not sure, maybe not a lot really if done really well).

So....

Nino, or anyone else that has information - what exactly and where (pics would be good) should people look at on a game to determine if it is a true restored MM, or one of these fakes?

[pinball god]

An interesting topic that deserves it's own thread.


Using a NBA Fastbreak or Congo and converting it to an MM is not a "restoration". The serial numbers will always be Congo or NBA Fastbreak. When it is sold, it is not a "High End Restoration" or an "original" MM. As long as the business highlights that it is NOT original, I have no issue with the process. But I find it ironic that the inflated prices set by resellers for this title has created a market for the conversions. I'd be interested to know what the price is for one of these. I'd expect it would be far less than an original. That is, assuming the customer is aware it is not original.

Agree on the own thread, this is a big issue for people who might pay top dollar for a high end MM that is in fact a fake.

I agree in relation to hobbyists doing their own - more than likely a true hobbyist would explain, and I expect the buyer would be happy if done well, plays the same, and the price reflects the situation (how much, not sure, maybe not a lot really if done really well).

So....

Nino, or anyone else that has information - what exactly and where (pics would be good) should people look at on a game to determine if it is a true restored MM, or one of these fakes?

great question and interested to see the tell tale signs of a fake. But I think the true thief could nearly make it impossible to tell via quality repro labels etc. I think even pcb's only have sticky labels for serial numbers. Be interested in seeing further comments

[DSB]

My take is if it is sold by a dealer and the consumer can prove they have been mislead, Australian Consumer Law says they can get a refund plus the reasonable costs of returning the machine. No such law for a private sale though.

On the other hand if someone was going to spend $10 to $14K on a pinball you would assume they know a fair bit about pinball and therefore would check the details of the machine.

 

[Strangeways]

It is a similar situation to the "restorer" that was sanding down Mata Hari Pinballs, repainting them, installing a repro playfield and then calling it "The best KISS Pinball ever".. That was easily debunked when an owner did a serial number check and it was a Mata Hari. Then later auctions has the serial numbers conveniently sanded during the repaint. Finally, later auctions had serial numbers highlighted, "pretending" that the seller was merely trying to illustrate the head and backbox serial numbers matched.

With WPC games, it is easy to scan a genuine MM serial number and then print it as many times as needed. I have personally seen a machine that was a Congo, but the conversion process left the original stickers in place.

The converted games I've seen always have the following ;

Poorly printed cabinet decals than peel back easily due to lack of preparation and poor quality print. I'd like to stress these were not "Next Gen", but reproduced decals. Having an original next to a conversion demonstrated the difference in colours and texture. Don't go too aggressive with Nifti !

Repro playfields with brand new game specific mechanisms etc - New Troll carriages, moats popper assy, moat subway ramp, castle parts.. Of course these can be excused as part of a "restoration", but most sellers won't go to this level and just use second hand parts - which they don't have because the game is a conversion..

Wiring harness - Playfield either new (which can be purchased) or "home made". Poor soldering to mechs etc.

Boards - The last conversion I saw simply had the ROMs replaced (AV and CPU boards). Look at the stickers on the ROMs. Conveniently ALL non factory white labels. Dead giveaway. You don't need to reprint the ROMs on a restored game, and MM does not have ROM revisions other than Profanity and one code update.. Changing the ROM labels for the sake of it is a really the domain of a restorer who just has to update and refresh everything.

Regarding the increased interest of the conversions by hobbyists / Collectors - I have no issue whatsoever with conversions. I've spoken to a few friends and they would attempt this, and I would be comfortable that they would be honest on resale. I'm sure most people won't mind if they know beforehand, and they can judge the workmanship of a hobbyist.

As far as I'm concerned, if a customer came to me with a Congo or NBA Fastbreak and requested I convert it, I would do it.

I think that if there was a "backyard" attempt at mass conversions, based on what I've seen, it would be an area which will have consequences for buyer and seller.

[swinks]

Maybe a little off topic but MM related, and don't want to stir up trouble but came across this dated at 2011 of a Aus company making MM playfields.

Anyone know if these were finished and what the background of it was?

http://www.gamemasters.com.au/MMPlayfield%20.htm

[johnwartjr]

One thing to keep in mind - I know the first person who converted a NBA:FB to a MM, and in the end, it ended up costing *more* than he could've bought a decent MM for!

His conversion was not of poor quality at all - admittedly, it was not original (he never claimed it was!) - but the workmanship on the parts he had to create was top notch.

Wally did his conversion because people had talked about the feasibility of doing it for years, and the general accepted opinion was, it couldn't be done. It couldn't be done *cost effectively*, anyways!

I've had my MM, just like I've had my AFM, my MB and my SC. Of those 4, I'd own SC and MB again, but MM and AFM were fun, but not worth what they currently sell for *to me*. I am lucky that I got to enjoy these games before they spiked in price - and I'm even luckier that when I sold mine, I was able to get to, in effect, enjoy my games for several years and get paid to do it.

Let's say Joe's Pinball shop has a blown out NBA:FB, and decides he wants a MM

So, he has to buy a playfield. And lots of cosmetic parts, and lots of mechanical parts.

He still has to assemble all those parts. That takes time. And NBA:FB isn't getting any cheaper, either.

As one of the primary ROM guys in the world, I can tell you I've had requests for a number of MM complete ROM sets. People are doing this pretty regularly at this point. I have trouble keeping 27c801s in stock anymore!

It's good for the hobby, as it creates parts that we can use to fix broken games. It creates jobs for the people making those parts, etc. It's not a bad thing..

The term 'restored' is abused in pinball, much in the way the term HUO is abused. There are lots of people 'restoring' games by throwing every new part they can find at it. They aren't restoring anything - they're taking a few original parts, and replacing everything else, and calling it restored. 'Well, the transformer is original, and this one post that isn't remade is original, and the coin door interface board is original... everything else is new!'

And, there are lots of people doing a shop job at best, and say they are 'restoring' the game.

And there's everything in-between.

Like anything else, consumers must be educated with what they are purchasing. I'm not suggesting a consumer is at fault if they are intentionally misled, but there are cases where they could've done more to make an educated decision....