? WAY TO USE LED'S ? WHAT DO U THINK. ?

[GORGAR 1]

Brett I did all the inserts in my Twister and it looks 100% better/only thing is some LED's glow alittle when the insert light isn't on if you know what I mean. But having said that it made a hugh improvement I even put them in the Multiball canister.

Peter

[Homepin]

LEDs are no good for GI - the main reason is that they are too directional and for GI you need a more generous spread of light. The opposite is true of inserts however where ideally the light is more directional or focused onto the insert. LEDs can bring out the 'true' colour of an insert. The pic below shows the lower section of my BSD before and after using LEDs. I never realised that the inserts were in fact purple! The lamps made the inserts look red because the lamp is actually a bit yellow itself. Using white LEDs the true insert colour can be seen. Another pic shows the insert in question looking from the bottom of the PF up into natural light.

The last pic is a perfect example of using LEDs to highlight a feature. I have used 10mm LEDs behind the headlights in the backbox of Getaway HSII and the difference is really amazing. the lamps light up the entire headlight area but the LEDs correct this with light axactly where you need it.

[Strangeways]

LEDs are something I've shown limited interest in as I don't believe they have a place in EMs and SS machines. They have a better fit in DMDs. I'm always interested in new developments in Pinball, and this is a perfect example of using something to improve and enhance the appearance of a machine and also reduce the heat and power. Wotto is right, pictures don't do justice.. I saw Marco's ST TNG and it changed my opinion on the machine. With LEDs is simply looks more "3D". Watching the ball buzz around and the reflection of the LEDs on the ball changes the playing experience. The only way I can describe the visual aspect is that it gives the player a more "3D" experience. Hard to describe, but I really liked it.

I will experiment with LEDs on my CV and ToM - I think these two games will simply look awesome !

I think there is a LOT of trial and error with placement - and I think there is scope for a "standard" for placement for each machine.

[Wotto]

I think there is a LOT of trial and error with placement - and I think there is scope for a "standard" for placement for each machine.

Yep – correct there Nino – placement is a LOT of trial and error.

Placement – I have put LED’s in certain places on games, then tried another colour in that spot, then tried a different style of lens ( narrow, wide, ablaze3 ) over and over again until it looks best for the game  - I have even had some globes in games for a week or so, thought I liked em and then ended up changing or removing them.
- it’s kind of also a personal thing.

One very small example of how these are ‘personal’ is that when I had my TOTAN I put WHITE Led’s under the BAZAAR inserts, to me they were just OK and were better than the ‘yellowy’ incandescant’s BUT I was never  overly wrapped in the look of these particular inserts – then,  when the game was at Pauls place and he had a meet, quite a few guys commented on how good the BAZAAR Led’s looked

These days – LED’s are so cheap that you can afford to buy quite a few to experiment with – I mean if you spend $200.00 these days , you can buy about 200 – 250 globes, in days gone by that same amount would have bought you 40 globes.

And Nino – I believe TOM could look amazing with LED’s

[Retropin]

The colour enhancement that LED allows is pretty evident.. ive seen them in STNG and it does look bloody great!!

The notion of less current draw is an interesting one though. The reduced current draw is certainly not at your 240V wall socket where you pay your bills from. The power supply in pinballs is still a straight AC transformer. Its output is determined by the winding ratio between secondary and primary.
In other words, once you apply 240V across the primary winding the secondary will pump out the same power no matter what.
You do draw less current by using LED, but the transformer does not produce less current.. what is not used in the circuit is then lost in the form of heat in the windings, so you in fact cause your transformer to run warmer.

We find this all the time in the neon industry... the transformers should be loaded at 80% of their 30mA output limit. Under this amount and you run your load harder causing a loss of time that the neon will run as the electrode shells run warm, the transformer runs hot also. Anything over this 80% limit and you attempt to draw too much current and run your transformer hard causing loss of life in that.
Straight AC transformers are designed to work within a load limit... LED in your machine will not save you any $$$'s - you have to change your transformer to do that. It is also feasible that if using ALL led you will burn your transformer out... but this is theorising and i cannot of course prove this.

Now... were your power supply a switch mode type, then yes.. it churns out what is required dependant on load... but your AC winding transformer will always convert X to Y no matter what you do, unless you change the winding ratios

[FirePower]

LEDs are no good for GI - the main reason is that they are too directional and for GI you need a more generous spread of light.

This criticism and that the leds are too white is often made.  I wonder exactly which leds people have used - they all seem to be lumped under the same description as "leds", but there is quite a variety.  I see that cointaker have some 170° warm white ones that I've wondered how they'd go behind a BG or big bit of plastic.  I like the idea of reducing heat on BG.

I wonder if a led controller to turn them down a bit might help - not that easy to do as these normally control leds in series strings, whereas pins use parallel strings for GI.  I also wonder if a sheet of diffuser between leds and backglass might help, maybe something as simple as tracing paper.  I've also heard, maybe on this site, of people sanding the led surface to difuse it some more.

[Caveoftreasures]

I am one of those KISS (keep it simple stupid) sort of guys. And Lazy, so the following LED kits with maps are very appealing. Check them out !

There is a guy in Germany, who sells on ebay, a "set" of LED's per machine. He sends you a whack of LED"s and a large playfield placement map and tells u which colour n which style of LED to put where. He has done this style of kit for 2 x dozen machines. All the well known, popular titles. This is the part where we are lazy, and he has bothered to make a "placement map" that has helped him sell a whack of LED kits. What we need are a list of our own placement maps.

check out his site anyway below

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tales-Of-The-Arabian-Nights-pinball-Flipper-LED-KIT_W0QQitemZ190345880502QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutomaten?hash=item2c517fa3b6

But, i dont like promoting anyone overseas and really only like promoting aussie companies like Mark C. I know some people have used cointaker in the USA for Led's, but since Mark has now got them, i am assuming there is no need to go overseas.    Maybe our aussie sellers need to make these placement maps.
They will sell LED kits for sure i reckon. What say you other members ? !!

[Wotto]

All Aussie suppliers should know by now that if they are price competitive then money will stay here in Oz and happily make its way into their pockets – this is an obvious statement I know , for ANY product.

However - in relation to LED globes “a good range of product” is also vitally important, I need to go to ONE place that can provide a good solid range of LED globes in all colours and lens choices.

LED maps would be a good ‘added’ way for a supplier to help the hobbyist and help sell his globes more easily but I assume suppliers like Mark & other parts suppliers that sells heaps of general pinball parts could not find the time to test globes in games to see what looks best where and then make up maps etc – Mark ?
It takes quite a while to work out the best way for ONE game to look, let alone numerous games ……but it is a decent idea for a retailer if they want to provide that little bit of ‘extra’ quality service above & beyond for their potential customers.

[Pinfan]

In the end LEDS are personal preference and as Nino and Wotto have mentioned a lot of trial and error.

I have found my likes... 

The only 2 colours that do not do much for me are yellow and orange. They just don't pop.

AS for GI...they are great...wide angles for me are perfect. No direct beam instead a widespread hue of light.

[Homepin]

I think the advantage of 'reduced current draw' is NOT in relation to power bills or using less mains power but more to do with less strain on the connectors and driver circuits in the machine. This would certainly be the case should you replace even half a dozen lamps with LEDs - the current draw on the circuitry/transistors/triacs and connectors would be a lot less (I'm too lazy to calculate an example).

The colour enhancement that LED allows is pretty evident.. ive seen them in STNG and it does look bloody great!!

The notion of less current draw is an interesting one though. The reduced current draw is certainly not at your 240V wall socket where you pay your bills from. The power supply in pinballs is still a straight AC transformer. Its output is determined by the winding ratio between secondary and primary.
In other words, once you apply 240V across the primary winding the secondary will pump out the same power no matter what.
You do draw less current by using LED, but the transformer does not produce less current.. what is not used in the circuit is then lost in the form of heat in the windings, so you in fact cause your transformer to run warmer.

We find this all the time in the neon industry... the transformers should be loaded at 80% of their 30mA output limit. Under this amount and you run your load harder causing a loss of time that the neon will run as the electrode shells run warm, the transformer runs hot also. Anything over this 80% limit and you attempt to draw too much current and run your transformer hard causing loss of life in that.
Straight AC transformers are designed to work within a load limit... LED in your machine will not save you any $$$'s - you have to change your transformer to do that. It is also feasible that if using ALL led you will burn your transformer out... but this is theorising and i cannot of course prove this.

Now... were your power supply a switch mode type, then yes.. it churns out what is required dependant on load... but your AC winding transformer will always convert X to Y no matter what you do, unless you change the winding ratios

[Extra Ball]

the orange LEDs I made-up were brilliant, but yep, yellows do jack (use clears)

[Caveoftreasures]

quote from Pinfan -"AS for GI...they are great...wide angles for me are perfect. No direct beam instead a widespread hue of light".


which ones on Marks website would these be ?
 
 
 

[Homepin]

quote from Pinfan -"AS for GI...they are great...wide angles for me are perfect. No direct beam instead a widespread hue of light".


which ones on Marks website would these be ?
 
 
 

They don't exist - he's pulling your left one!!!!

[Pinfan]

These are the ones i use, only they are not from Mark but from COINTAKER.

They are practically the same.

http://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/index.php?crn=211&rn=2319&action=show_detail

http://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/index.php?crn=211&rn=2295&action=show_detail

[Caveoftreasures]

thanks Marco.